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View Full Version : Time to give Uncle Jerry a little credit...maybe


SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 01:51 PM
Everyone was up in arms this offseason about the "HUGE HOLE" we are going to have to fill in our rotation with the loss of Colon...and his 230 innings. They had a point.

It's still early, yes, but Colon is worse off than Show right now. For the money MUCH, MUCH worse. Colon is stuggling with the Halos...he has a 4.38 ERA with a 1.43 WHIP.
He's fanned as many as six hitters just once in six starts this season, something he did 12 times in 34 starts last season. Even worse, Colon has given up 43 hits in 37 innings. He hasn't allowed more hits than innings pitched since 1998.

There were reports in the offseason that Colon is "one pitch away from Tommy John." You can argue ALL pitchers have that risk, but Colon injury risk is inflated with his waistline.

I am NOT saying I wouldn't like to have Colon. However, it is VERY possible the Halos HIGHLY overpaid for him and he may decline from here on out.

This post would have more credence if Jerry and KW didn't try to re-sign him, but the point is they didn't match the Halos offer. And if he was looking for 3 years 36 million right now, what are the chances ANY team would sign him for that much? Hindsight is 20/20, but it was a good move.

All I am saying is if we would have signed Colon this offseason, we probably wouldn't have Maggs and we would be sitting in July probably unable to add more payroll to the rotation.

maurice
05-04-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Everyone was up in arms this offseason about the "HUGE HOLE" we are going to have to fill in our rotation with the loss of Colon...and his 230 innings. They had a point. It's still early, yes, but Colon is worse off than Show right now.

Okay, but Danny Wright has been the #5 starter and would have been the pitcher bumped had they retained Colon, not Scho.

SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Okay, but Danny Wright has been the #5 starter and would have been the pitcher bumped had they retained Colon, not Scho.

True, I was just saying b/c we basically "signed" Show this offseason.

poorme
05-04-2004, 01:59 PM
So we have to give JR credit for not doing something really stupid?

Ok. I give him credit for that.

jabrch
05-04-2004, 02:02 PM
I will give KW all the credit in the world for doing a heck of a job on a shoestring budget. I will not give JR any credit for giving KW that shoestring budget.

SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I will give KW all the credit in the world for doing a heck of a job on a shoestring budget. I will not give JR any credit for giving KW that shoestring budget.

Good point, but maybe JR has a point on not signing pitchers to long term deals.

idseer
05-04-2004, 02:08 PM
how short some memories are.

SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by idseer
how short some memories are.

What do you mean idseer...in regards to Colon? :?:

DaveIsHere
05-04-2004, 02:12 PM
I dont think that we have ever gotten enough credit for our pitching staff, and that is because we base our quality on potential. I don't have an issue with that, but many people do. I am quite happy with who we have (minus-wrong). I just want to go out there and kick some butt. We all know that if we are in contention, Kenney will take care of us.

34 Inch Stick
05-04-2004, 02:15 PM
All I am saying is if we would have signed Colon this offseason, we probably wouldn't have Maggs and we would be sitting in July probably unable to add more payroll to the rotation. [/B][/QUOTE]

What makes you think we are going to add payroll even without Colon. That money was obviously available and there were many other quality pitchers who could have been signed for half of Colon money. We signed Robert Person.

I agree with your point though, the Angels will be dying with that contract in year 4.

duke of dorwood
05-04-2004, 02:28 PM
Credit for being a cheap-skate, tightwad? OK with me

Randar68
05-04-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Everyone was up in arms this offseason about the "HUGE HOLE" we are going to have to fill in our rotation with the loss of Colon...and his 230 innings. They had a point.


I'd be surprised if Lip didn't have a heart attack just reading the title of this thread...

pearso66
05-04-2004, 02:38 PM
I wouldn't have signed him for what the Angels offered anyway. Jerry doesn't deserve credit, they tried to sign him, if they had thought it was a bad move to keep him, they wouldn't have offered nearly what they did. They just got lucky the Angels overpaid for him.

Irishsox1
05-04-2004, 02:38 PM
JR has NEVER paid a lot for pitching. He will open the check book for sluggers, but not pitchers. And to his credit, most pitchers that were good with the Sox have not had much of a career after they demanded a lot of money and got it elsewhere. Bascially what the Astros did for Pettite and Clemens, or Angels for Colon is something JR would never do. Just look at the Sox starting rotation, Loiza-cast off, Schoenweiss-cast off, Garland-young and cheap, Burhele-cheap but steady. I think the highest paid pitcher on the Sox this year is Loiza at $3.5 Million. Compare that to Pedro $17.5 M, Tim Hudson $4.55 M, Joe Mays $5.75 M, Eric Milton $9.0 M, Matt Morris $12.5 M, etc., etc., etc.

jabrch
05-04-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Good point, but maybe JR has a point on not signing pitchers to long term deals.

Agreed - but if you don't ever sign pitchers to long term deals, you better hope you can CONSTANTLY find diamonds in the rough like Loaiza and Schoenweis and convert them into front of the rotation starters - since the top young pitchers seem to want a lot of money and they want longer deals than JR is willing to pay.

jabrch
05-04-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
He will open the check book for sluggers, but not pitchers.

Will he? If he was willing to do that, we would have Magglio signed, and would have pursued a major FA to play one of the positions where we have holes.

Hangar18
05-04-2004, 03:01 PM
Your saying we should give Jerry Reinsdorf for us Winning DESPITE his Offseason Inactions? We need another Starter.
Were not going far in the Playoffs with our Pitching Staff.
JR in order to save MONEY Didnt sign Colon and then Compounded it by not getting another Pitcher to replace him.
Bartolo Colon being injured this year STILL doesnt excuse the Fact we DIDNT SIGN ANOTHER PITCHER.
He will IRONICALLY SPEND MORE THRU PROSPECTS AT MIDSEASON.
This Foolish behavior is legendary on the south side

idseer
05-04-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
What do you mean idseer...in regards to Colon? :?:

no. in regards to his entire ownership.

just because a thing here or there turn out to be beneficial (see blind squirrel) does not mean he deserves credit.

SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 03:07 PM
We didn't sign another pitcher b/c we still have Maggs Ordonez. It was either a starting pitcher or Maggs, basically. That is how I see it. Jerry deserves NO credit to put KW in that perdicament, but that is the way it goes.

Now that we are in contention, Uncle Jerry should be able to add a front line starter come July. I just hope KW pulls the trigger on the right one. Something is telling me it's going to be Garcia or Kris Benson.

CubKilla
05-04-2004, 03:12 PM
KW, Ozzie, Coop, Walker, Baines, Santana, Cora, etc. deserve credit for the first month of the season. JR deserves zero credit unless, like others have pointed out, you want to give him credit for being a tightwad that definitely hasn't put out the best product, within reason, on the field.

TaylorStSox
05-04-2004, 03:48 PM
I'm far from being a JR supporter. However, how is he a "tightwad" for not wanting to sign an overworked pitcher for 4 years? That argument is completely asinine. I completely agree with his stance regarding signing pitchers long term. Hard throwing work horses who last 4 years are about as rare as perfect games in this era.


Some people post like they have a few different answers for every thread and just hit a button which types it for them.

nasox
05-04-2004, 04:24 PM
Give JR credit. Be banished, sacrilegious fool! :)

rahulsekhar
05-04-2004, 04:48 PM
To me the key point is that the Sox tried to resign Colon and offered a pretty decent deal, but held the line where they thought his value was to them. The Angels went overboard and signed him for more than he's worth, and will be ruing that in a year or so (if not sooner).

Whether that's KW or JR figuring out what the max they'd consider Bartolo to be worth, either way it looks like the Sox made the right call in not upping the ante. (Now you could argue that their value was still too high, but at least they didn't go overboard.

I also hope that this ends the consistent slamming of the Sox as cheap for not resigning Bart. They may be cheap, but they offered him a good deal. The fact that someone else overpaid doesn't make them cheap. There are plenty of other things that make them cheap, but not that.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2004, 08:42 PM
Rahul:

The problem is that the Sox operate one way and most of baseball operates another. (Which may be why the Sox haven't been to a World Series in 44 years...)

There comes a time in any business that in order to achieve greater success down the road, you have to take a risk. The Sox refuse to do this and while you can say they get the most out of their limited payroll, they also have achieved an average record of only 83-79 since the White Flag Deal, and are almost completetly out of the minds of the majority of Chicagoans.

They are losing market shares, fans and corporate sponsorships (i.e. notice how many empty 'skyboxes' there are?)

Clearly a sea change is needed to revitilize this operation don't you agree?

Lip

gosox41
05-05-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Okay, but Danny Wright has been the #5 starter and would have been the pitcher bumped had they retained Colon, not Scho.

And if Colon happens to go on the DL for an extended period of time (his fastball is off this year) then Wright wouldb e your starter and the Sox would have a $12 mill. year player contributing nothing to the payroll. Oh yeah, and Magglio would probably not be here anymore.

Long term contracts for a pitcher are a risk. Especially a pitcher who is overweight that has logged a ton of innings early in his career.

Bob

Paulwny
05-05-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
And if Colon happens to go on the DL for an extended period of time (his fastball is off this year) then Wright wouldb e your starter and the Sox would have a $12 mill. year player contributing nothing to the payroll. Oh yeah, and Magglio would probably not be here anymore.

Long term contracts for a pitcher are a risk. Especially a pitcher who is overweight that has logged a ton of innings early in his career.

Bob

So, we'll never sign any pitchers who are similar to Clemens, Schilling, Pedro, Mussina, Petite, etc. JR has to change his stance on front line pitchers.
As someone posted on another thread, the speed of fastballs is down throughout mlb.

rahulsekhar
05-05-2004, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rahul:

The problem is that the Sox operate one way and most of baseball operates another. (Which may be why the Sox haven't been to a World Series in 44 years...)


Lip

I don't know about "most of baseball". In fact, I'd say most of baseball operates more like the Sox. Teams aggressively spending on FAs aren't that many: NY, BOS, BAL, PHI, Cubs, STL. Houston could be argued, but they got guys at pretty good prices.

Remember, the crux of my point was that the Sox placed a value on Bartolo and held the line at that value. If you're arguing that they should be willing to give a guy a blank check to make sure they get him, I'd disagree. VERY few teams do that. Primarily the Yanks.

On another note, JR hasn't been running the team for 44 years, so to say his management style hasn't worked in that time's a bit misleading. That may be semantics, but the point is that there are many management styles that don't result in WS appearances.

rahulsekhar
05-05-2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
So, we'll never sign any pitchers who are similar to Clemens, Schilling, Pedro, Mussina, Petite, etc. JR has to change his stance on front line pitchers.
As someone posted on another thread, the speed of fastballs is down throughout mlb.

No, but I think it is prudent to offer those contracts selectively. For example: anyone offering Pedro a 5-yar deal is nuts. Similarly, with Colon because of weight, a 4-year was a bit much. Meanwhile, Schilling is worth those types of deals because of his workout ethic, health, and competitiveness. Same with Clemens. Mussina: I'd have thought so, but he's pitched pretty poorly so far and supposedly has lost velocity, which may indicate arm trouble.

Paulwny
05-05-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
No, but I think it is prudent to offer those contracts selectively. For example: anyone offering Pedro a 5-yar deal is nuts. Similarly, with Colon because of weight, a 4-year was a bit much. Meanwhile, Schilling is worth those types of deals because of his workout ethic, health, and competitiveness. Same with Clemens. Mussina: I'd have thought so, but he's pitched pretty poorly so far and supposedly has lost velocity, which may indicate arm trouble.


But, JR isn't selective. As things stand right now, JR won't offer any pitcher a long term contract and that would include Clemens and Schilling type pitchers you may be FA's in the future.

iwannago
05-05-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
True, I was just saying b/c we basically "signed" Show this offseason.


Don't forget if Colon was signed others would have been let go.
One of them might have been Show.

Dan H
05-05-2004, 10:16 AM
I am with Hangar on this one. If Colon is too expensive or overrated, you need to get someone else. I know that is easy to say, but face it, this rotation is thin. The 3-4 guys are still questions marks even though #4 has gotten off to a great start. I don't like Loaiza right how. One quality start is not good.

I can't argue with the effort and results of the team so far. But any optimism has to be guarded. And Jerry Reinsdorf? One of these seasons he is going to have to take a risk on some pitcher, and that will be mean a long range deal. As far as Colon is concerned, don't be surprised if he turns his season around like last year. He'd not dead yet.

SoxxoS
05-05-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Dan H
I can't argue with the effort and results of the team so far. But any optimism has to be guarded. And Jerry Reinsdorf? One of these seasons he is going to have to take a risk on some pitcher, and that will be mean a long range deal. As far as Colon is concerned, don't be surprised if he turns his season around like last year. He'd not dead yet.

I don't doubt that, but
A)He is throwing only 92-93 last outing, which is scary.

B)His numbers have show he is declining for the past 3 years. That doesn't bode well when he is only 30? years old.

Lip Man 1
05-05-2004, 01:00 PM
Rahul:

So noted.

Jerry Reinsdorf has been running this operation longer then any other ownership group in MLB. He bought the team a few months before the Cubs in 1981.

He has zero World Series appearances in that time under his stewardship. As Phil Rogers noted in his story on this matter a few years ago that is the worst record for any ownership group in baseball.

To me that is an obvious indictment that his way is not working.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
05-05-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jerry Reinsdorf has been running this operation longer then any other ownership group in MLB. He bought the team a few months before the Cubs in 1981.

He has zero World Series appearances in that time under his stewardship. As Phil Rogers noted in his story on this matter a few years ago that is the worst record for any ownership group in baseball.

To me that is an obvious indictment that his way is not working.

Lip

The fact that the Florida Marlins have won two World Series and the Arizona Diamondbacks one within the past seven years is an embarassment and a disgrace to the White Sox (and the Cubs and Red Sox as well).

rahulsekhar
05-05-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
The fact that the Florida Marlins have won two World Series and the Arizona Diamondbacks one within the past seven years is an embarassment and a disgrace to the White Sox (and the Cubs and Red Sox as well).

What's interesting is that the Marlins have won in different ways, Yankee-style, buying FAs up and then dumping them post-title, and more of the Sox way - going the youth & cheap FA route.

You can win in a large number of ways, but each one requires a slightly different set of organizational skills. What the Sox are trying to do requires them to acquire and develop studly young pitching. That has to date not been successful for them. But if Cotts/Rauch/Diaz come through, it could still work out.

rahulsekhar
05-05-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rahul:

So noted.

Jerry Reinsdorf has been running this operation longer then any other ownership group in MLB. He bought the team a few months before the Cubs in 1981.

He has zero World Series appearances in that time under his stewardship. As Phil Rogers noted in his story on this matter a few years ago that is the worst record for any ownership group in baseball.

To me that is an obvious indictment that his way is not working.

Lip

The question then becomes: is it the strategy or the execution? IMO, the bottom line is that there are 2 things that he could do, each of which carries it's own risk and likelihood of success.

1) "Stay the course", but determine what it is about other teams (ATL, FLA, LA, OAK, Cubs) v. the Sox that enables them to develop more dominant young starters while we continually have highly touted guys that flop. Adopt the necessary training, development, scouting techniques to improve your development capabilities. The risk here is that young pitching is still a crapshoot, so the chances of success may go down, but you'll likely be at least consistently decent.

2) Go the Yankee route, and spend into the red on a bunch of top-level FAs (Note: Yanks aren't in the red, but spending like them would put the Sox in the red). The risk here is that if you don't win due to slump/opponents hot streak, injury, lack of chemistry, luck, whatever and therefore the revenues don't follow the expense, you can hamstring your franchise long term and end up carrying a bunch of tough-to-move contracts and basically sucking for a while. The upside is obviously that you have a better shot to win the WS.

As much as I'd prefer option#2 as a fan, I can completely understand option #1 as a viable alternative.

Dan H
05-05-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
What's interesting is that the Marlins have won in different ways, Yankee-style, buying FAs up and then dumping them post-title, and more of the Sox way - going the youth & cheap FA route.

You can win in a large number of ways, but each one requires a slightly different set of organizational skills. What the Sox are trying to do requires them to acquire and develop studly young pitching. That has to date not been successful for them. But if Cotts/Rauch/Diaz come through, it could still work out.

The trouble with this is the youth way started in 1997 White Flag Trade and the Sox just haven't developed young pitching. All or any of the three you mentioned may come through. But when? I actually like the youth movement way better. But you have to be good at developing young talent and eventually you will have to pay that young talent. Reinsdorf has made some good moves, even by letting some pitchers go. But where is the World Series? We are going on 10 years since the strike and 7 since the White Flag Trade. This is no time to preach patience. Mabe Colon wasn't the answer for all I know. I just know the starting pitching looks pretty iffy right now.

BeerHandle
05-05-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Everyone was up in arms this offseason about the "HUGE HOLE" we are going to have to fill in our rotation with the loss of Colon...and his 230 innings. They had a point.

It's still early, yes, but Colon is worse off than Show right now. For the money MUCH, MUCH worse. Colon is stuggling with the Halos...he has a 4.38 ERA with a 1.43 WHIP.
He's fanned as many as six hitters just once in six starts this season, something he did 12 times in 34 starts last season. Even worse, Colon has given up 43 hits in 37 innings. He hasn't allowed more hits than innings pitched since 1998.

There were reports in the offseason that Colon is "one pitch away from Tommy John." You can argue ALL pitchers have that risk, but Colon injury risk is inflated with his waistline.

I am NOT saying I wouldn't like to have Colon. However, it is VERY possible the Halos HIGHLY overpaid for him and he may decline from here on out.

This post would have more credence if Jerry and KW didn't try to re-sign him, but the point is they didn't match the Halos offer. And if he was looking for 3 years 36 million right now, what are the chances ANY team would sign him for that much? Hindsight is 20/20, but it was a good move.

All I am saying is if we would have signed Colon this offseason, we probably wouldn't have Maggs and we would be sitting in July probably unable to add more payroll to the rotation.

I heard on the Score yeterday that Colon has lost 4-6 mph of off his fastball. As of now, it was a good move we did not sign him. Time will tell!