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Konerko05
05-03-2004, 10:35 PM
I don't ever want to see him in a game again. Thats all I have to say.

Brian26
05-03-2004, 10:39 PM
The fact that he actually gets a save tonight is a darn joke. Unbelievable play by Uribe though. They should credit Uribe with the save!

cburns
05-03-2004, 10:40 PM
I was actually feeling optimistic about Koch when he struck those two guys out. What a joke of a pitcher, without his velocity he has nothing, he has no out pitch, I really really hate the fact that Ozzie sticks with him.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 10:41 PM
When Koch walked the second guy to put em on 1st and second, Hawk did his trademark "nooo." Hawk knew what was coming, but it never came. 10-1 in one run games.

Da-na na na na na ..HEY!

Hondo
05-03-2004, 10:43 PM
Who could we get?

Any Ideas?

It's going to be hard to get a frontline closer so early in the season with very few teams with good closer struggling thus far.

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 10:45 PM
Billy has looked a lot better in one run ball games, it's when he comes in with a 3 run lead that he struggles.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2004, 10:48 PM
The game was on CCSN out of Baltimore / D.C. tonight and the blackout ended with the game in the last of the 8th inning. I thought it was going to be easy...but there is no such thing with Koch on the mound.

He's damn lucky tonight that's all I've got to say. The exit door can't swing open fast enough to suit me.

We'll see next year who the Sox decide to spend all that extra money they are going to have on. Since they only have like 20 million guaranteed for next year they should be a real player in getting free agents.

Lip

Sox2004mike
05-03-2004, 10:49 PM
I was at the game he blew for us several weeks ago against the Royals which ultimatley we ended up winning; but that day we all really thought that maybe that was the last draw. He is terrible, inconsistent, and doesn't have the mind set of a closer anymore. His head is mush. Your closer is supposed to come in and inspire confidence - all Sox fans, and I suspect player are sitting on needles and pins when he comes in. Do you think teams like the Yankees/Red Sox or other eilite teams would allow this to continue? No Way.

mike squires
05-03-2004, 10:51 PM
Koch is one of the main reasons I am on blood pressure medications.

inta
05-03-2004, 10:52 PM
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.

Nick@Nite
05-03-2004, 10:53 PM
Well... Koch did notch his 4 save.

I must admit that I didn't expect to release vast numbers of endorphins during the bottom of the 9th... thanks Billy.

Everyone should look at the bright side, the Sox won... and we're a half game up on the Twins. :gulp:

Hondo
05-03-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by inta
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.


Koch could afford to be kind of wild when he was topping out at 99/100 mph with good velocity.

Sox2004mike
05-03-2004, 10:55 PM
If this was not a pattern of repetition for Koch I don't think we would be calling for this guys head. But he hasn't done squat for us. So I suggest you get out of La La land and realize Billy Koch is better at entertaining the club house than closing ball games. I don't want my closer making statements after the game like this: "He pulled a Koch." That doesn't inspire confidence in anyone.

Thigpen Rules
05-03-2004, 10:55 PM
I'm not as down on Koch as everyone else. not yet at least, he still only has 1 blown save, same as Marte, just wild tonight

owensmouth
05-03-2004, 10:56 PM
I'm sick and tired of you whiney, crying fatherless sons.

Even when he threw 100 mph, Koch would be like this.

If you think Foulke was so damn great, you have forgotten how nervous some of his innings were.

He got the job done, The White Sox won.

Frank the Tank
05-03-2004, 10:56 PM
When Koch tries to locate he is not all that bad. He was throwing some nasty pitches. It seems that he runs into trouble when he tries to throw the heat.

SpartanSoxFan
05-03-2004, 10:57 PM
Some of you guys keep pointing to the fact that this was a 1-run game, and the Sox are 10-1 in 1 run ballgames this year. PEOPLE, THIS GAME SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A ONE-RUN GAME. Krotch had a 3 RUN LEAD which he nearly blew. If we are going to be a serious contender for the AL Central Crown, we need to get through the ninth inning not letting any across on a fairly regular basis. Has that happened yet??? Hell no.

delben91
05-03-2004, 10:58 PM
From what was said in chat, Koch had a K for the 3rd out taken away by a "B.S. call" by the ump, and his control went down the tubes thereafter. Not an excuse, but he was locating pretty well until that call.

Sox2004mike
05-03-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
I'm sick and tired of you whiney, crying fatherless sons.

Even when he threw 100 mph, Koch would be like this.

If you think Foulke was so damn great, you have forgotten how nervous some of his innings were.

He got the job done, The White Sox won.

I can't believe that any Sox fan would actually stick up for this goat. He stinks, and all you Koch sympathizers should check yourself into the mental ward.

Nard
05-03-2004, 10:59 PM
That was a total BS call, a makeup call for an earlier throw that could've gone either way.

But even at the next batter he was STILL 1-2.

There's no excuse. This was absolutely terrible.

We're not talking about Kerry Wood or Andy Roddick where if one call doesn't go away you mentally throw in the towel.

Kilroy
05-03-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by inta
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.

I don't expect it to always be a walk in the park, but with Koch, its never a walk in the park. THAT **** GETS OLD! And w/ a 3 run lead, he should have been able to coast.

When you throw 99-100, your fastball is your out pitch. Well he's hitting 94 mostly, 95 every so often, and that ain't enuf. He has no out pitch, and that's why he gets beat a lot. They foul off pitches until he makes a mistake.

I was feeling positive in that his pitches are starting to get some movement back, but he has trouble throwing over the damn plate.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by inta
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.

For once I agree.

I still don't trust Billy, but he got the job done and big picture, that's what matters.

:winner

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Sox2004mike
I can't believe that any Sox fan would actually stick up for this goat. He stinks, and all you Koch sympathizers should check yourself into the mental ward.
I'm not a huge koch fan, but he's 4 for 5 in save chances, he's blown 1, he always makes the game interesting, but if he gets the job done WHO CARES??

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I don't expect it to always be a walk in the park, but with Koch, its never a walk in the park. THAT **** GETS OLD! And w/ a 3 run lead, he should have been able to coast.

When you throw 99-100, your fastball is your out pitch. Well he's hitting 94 mostly, 95 every so often, and that ain't enuf. He has no out pitch, and that's why he gets beat a lot. They foul off pitches until he makes a mistake.

I was feeling positive in that his pitches are starting to get some movement back, but he has trouble throwing over the damn plate.

He seemed to struggle after he didn't get the call against Surhoff. The ump flinched but didn't ring him up. It would have ended the game, but was probably a makeup call for an earlier call that appeared outside.

After that Billy got wild which was probably due to him being distracted.

In the end he closed the door.

The rest is just a bunch of whining, IMO.

Sox win, but didn't win the way I want them to. They made my heart beat and my palms sweat and ...and ...and ...:whiner:

A. Cavatica
05-03-2004, 11:07 PM
One more time...

Your 2004 White Sox: Inning Ugly.

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He seemed to struggle after he didn't get the call against Surhoff. The ump flinched but didn't ring him up. It would have ended the game, but was probably a makeup call for an earlier call that appeared outside.

After that Billy got wild which was probably due to him being distracted.

In the end he closed the door.

The rest is just a bunch of whining, IMO.

Sox win, but didn't win the way I want them to. They made my heart beat and my palms sweat and ...and ...and ...:whiner:
I completely agree with you on billy and how they won. I love this team, but I don't want to die of a heart attack at 16.

Hondo
05-03-2004, 11:11 PM
People are saying if he gets that call against Surhoff then game over. Well if Uribe doesn't make that great play the game is going to extras or ending in the bottom of the ninth.
This team has a chance to win the division and go far this year. If a chance to upgrade the closer spot comes along then we can't sit on our hands with Koch. This team is good enough and has potential and deserves a frontline closer if we can get one.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by SpartanSoxFan
Some of you guys keep pointing to the fact that this was a 1-run game, and the Sox are 10-1 in 1 run ballgames this year. PEOPLE, THIS GAME SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A ONE-RUN GAME. Krotch had a 3 RUN LEAD which he nearly blew. If we are going to be a serious contender for the AL Central Crown, we need to get through the ninth inning not letting any across on a fairly regular basis. Has that happened yet??? Hell no.

So what? Was I praising Koch? Did I not say this luck won't continue?

Blueprint1
05-03-2004, 11:11 PM
I agree that he now has no out pitch. When you throw 99mph you can blow it by people. When you throw 93 they foul that pitch off.

SoxxoS
05-03-2004, 11:12 PM
Shingo can't be put into the game when a homer ties the game.

If we are up 4-2, and you want to trot him out there to start the 7th...great.

You can't put a "guess" pitcher out there when you need to avoid the homerun. I thought we had a tie game FOR SURE when the ball left Lopez's bat.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I completely agree with you on billy and how they won. I love this team, but I don't want to die of a heart attack at 16.

Quit eating all your meals at McDonalds and get some exercise. At 16, the stress is actually good for you.

Wait until you have a family and a mortgage and a 9-7 job with another 4 hours from home on Saturday. Then you can worry about the heart attack...

idseer
05-03-2004, 11:16 PM
hard to believe there are so many koch supporters after this outing tonight. the man STINKS!
were you even WATCHING? when he wasn't being wild ... he had NOTHING on 91 to 93 mph pitches.

holy COW! some people are so BLIND!

Konerko05
05-03-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
I'm sick and tired of you whiney, crying fatherless sons.

Even when he threw 100 mph, Koch would be like this.

If you think Foulke was so damn great, you have forgotten how nervous some of his innings were.

He got the job done, The White Sox won.

I'm sick and tired of you people who know nothing about baseball defending this joke of a pitcher. It figures that you would also take a shot at Foulke in your post. I don't know if you know this but Foulke is one of the best relievers in baseball, and he has been, even when all you people complained he didn't have the "makeup" to be a closer.

All Koch has to do is come in and get 3 outs before the other team scores 3 runs(not to mention he was facing the bottom of the order). The fact that he walked 3 guys in that inning is just plain horrible. Koch is just not good. And you are right, even when he was throwing 100, he would be like this because he never has been a very good pitcher. Foulke has been lightyears better than him over the last 5 years. Now that koch can barely throw 92, he sucks even more.

I can't believe anyone who has watched one game of baseball can compare Koch with Foulke.

Hondo
05-03-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Quit eating all your meals at McDonalds and get some exercise. At 16, the stress is actually good for you.

Wait until you have a family and a mortgage and a 9-7 job with another 4 hours from home on Saturday. Then you can worry about the heart attack...

Hey voodo we don't need you opening up about your problems.
:D:

:takeittochat


Just kidding buddy

Lip Man 1
05-03-2004, 11:18 PM
From the 'official' White Sox web site:

Sox hang on to opener vs. O's
Schoeneweis superb; Koch nearly gives it away

Ironic don't you think...

Lip

SpartanSoxFan
05-03-2004, 11:20 PM
I simply don't understand how we couldn't given up on Keith so easily in the first place. What, he had one bad season so we throw in the towel on keeping him??? How many blown saves and crap seasons by Krotchhead do we Sox fans have to put up with before he is put to pasture??? Last time I checked, Keith Foulke has put up some good numbers with Oakland and Boston since we let him go.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Hey voodo we don't need you opening up about your problems.
:D:
Just kidding buddy

No, my schedule is more like M-Sat, 10AM-Midnight, or it will be real soon. Problems? You have NO idea... :D:

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Quit eating all your meals at McDonalds and get some exercise. At 16, the stress is actually good for you.

Wait until you have a family and a mortgage and a 9-7 job with another 4 hours from home on Saturday. Then you can worry about the heart attack...
But I like mcdonalds. :whiner:

ChiSox7
05-03-2004, 11:22 PM
Koch has been awesome in the 1-run games, and not so hot when he has a big lead (KC, today). Kind of the opposite of Foulke.

He got the job done though, and that's all I care about. I can't believe we have a three page thread about people whining tonight. Last year the team would have lost a game like this.

We're 16-9 and a .5 game out of the best record in baseball. Our closer in 4/5 in saves. WAAAAAAAAAAAH.

Hondo
05-03-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, my schedule is more like M-Sat, 10AM-Midnight, or it will be real soon. Problems? You have NO idea... :D:

Well when there are Bear Country Pizza parlors all over the southland it'll be worth it...if you're not dead. So don't go dying on us now.

We're playing better ball but do you know we're only two games better than we were last year? We played weaker competition last year but still..doesn't it seem like we played so much worse?

The month of May didn't help us out too much.

So for Koch let's see if he can make it to Memorial Day. If he can fine. If not. Get rid of him. Do it. Do it.

idseer
05-03-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Koch has been awesome in the 1-run games, and not so hot when he has a big lead (KC, today). Kind of the opposite of Foulke.

He got the job done though, and that's all I care about. I can't believe we have a three page thread about people whining tonight. Last year the team would have lost a game like this.

We're 16-9 and a .5 game out of the best record in baseball. Our closer in 4/5 in saves. WAAAAAAAAAAAH.

i'm sure the skipper of the titanic made similar claims regarding his ship when people tried to explain there weren't enough lifeboats to go around.

you can try to focus on the sox record and ignore koch's horrible play but personally, i'd like to see the problem remedied before it bites us in the ass.

inta
05-03-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
He got the job done though, and that's all I care about. I can't believe we have a three page thread about people whining tonight. Last year the team would have lost a game like this.

We're 16-9 and a .5 game out of the best record in baseball. Our closer in 4/5 in saves. WAAAAAAAAAAAH.

exactly.

foulke goes 1-2-3 in a bunch of games in a row and you see nothing about him. the guy allows some runs in a WIN and suddenly he's blown game 7.

and whoever said foulke has been better than koch the last 5 years is on serious crack.
i love kieth, but all i gotta say is SEATTLE 2000.

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Koch has been awesome in the 1-run games, and not so hot when he has a big lead (KC, today). Kind of the opposite of Foulke.

He got the job done though, and that's all I care about. I can't believe we have a three page thread about people whining tonight. Last year the team would have lost a game like this.

We're 16-9 and a .5 game out of the best record in baseball. Our closer in 4/5 in saves. WAAAAAAAAAAAH.

People whine because it's the bigger picture. Feel comfortable with the '03-'04 Botch coming into a playoff game in the 9th with a one run lead against a playoff team? If this team is a contender it absolutely needs someone to step up who can close on a regular basis without practically blowing 3 run leads.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Well when there are Bear Country Pizza parlors all over the southland it'll be worth it...if you're not dead. So don't go dying on us now.

We're playing better ball but do you know we're only two games better than we were last year? We played weaker competition last year but still..doesn't it seem like we played so much worse?

The month of May didn't help us out too much.

So for Koch let's see if he can make it to Memorial Day. If he can fine. If not. Get rid of him. Do it. Do it.

Hey, if someone wants to open BCP's all over the south, I am very willing to sell. Let's see, Lettuce got $70M for the rights to 3 Maggianos, 4 Corner Bakerys and the rights to those concepts.

I've only got one restaurant, so $10M sounds about right. For you, $5M. Hey, what are friends for?

I'm not saying that Koch should be allowed to lose a bunch of games this year, but the Sox won this one. Let's not get all caught up in yelling about the trees in our path and miss looking at the beautiful forest.

stillz
05-03-2004, 11:28 PM
I can't believe anyone who has watched one game of baseball can compare Koch with Foulke.

Agreed, making Koch the closer has been one of the worst KW moves to date. Foulke would have kept the ball over the plate, and made the hitters hit it. Billy's a headcase and a momentum killer.

A. Cavatica
05-03-2004, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
We're 16-9 and a .5 game out of the best record in baseball.

Amen. There is lots of room for improvement, but I must admit I'm happy that we would need to lose 15 straight to keep pace with the 1983 "Winning Ugly" Sox.

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i'm sure the skipper of the titanic made similar claims regarding his ship when people tried to explain there weren't enough lifeboats to go around.

you can try to focus on the sox record and ignore koch's horrible play but personally, i'd like to see the problem remedied before it bites us in the ass.
He got the job done, did he have defensive help... sure, but did he blow the save, no he didn't, I could careless what his era is, if he keeps getting saves he's the closer.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-03-2004, 11:30 PM
i'm sure it's been said, but why put ourselves in one-run situations

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
If this team is a contender it absolutely needs someone to step up who can close on a regular basis without practically blowing 3 run leads.

Actually, a contender would be just fine with a guy who consistently "practically blow(s) 3 run leads".

But, maybe I am nuts...

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by inta
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.

So you're saying there's nothing wrong with what happened tonight..... something that seems to happen on a regular basis with Botch?

Wow

And what were the great strikes? The generous 1 ft outside corners and 3 inches below the knees that Botch was getting the call on to LH's? Those were gifts.

Hondo
05-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Voodo,

I'm enjoying this. I'm just going to continue to look at Koch with a jaundiced eye. If he gets the job done great.

We've got seven games with the Twinkies and a series against Texas and Anaheim. If he can make it through that stretch relatively unscathed then we may have something.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by stillz
[B]

Agreed, making Koch the closer has been one of the worst KW moves to date. Foulke would have kept the ball over the plate, and made the hitters hit it. Billy's a headcase and a momentum killer.

:cleo

Is that you?

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, a contender would be just fine with a guy who consistently "practically blow(s) 3 run leads".

But, maybe I am nuts...

You might be fine with it. I'm not.

davidleeroth
05-03-2004, 11:33 PM
he's been pitching well lately. get a frickin grip people. this was 1 game that ALMOST got out of hand. WE STILL WON THE GAME. sure, he almost blew it, but some of you (alright, a lot of you) need to step away from the computer and THINK about what you're typing before you type it.

in case you havent figured it out yet, he's our closer. period. if we're going to win, koch is going to be our closer. period. nobody is going to trade for him, he's not a right handed specialist, and jerry/kenny won't let a 6 million a year guy sit. deal with it.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
So you're saying there's nothing wrong with what happened tonight..... something that seems to happen on a regular basis with Botch?

Wow

And what were the great strikes? The generous 1 ft outside corners and 3 inches below the knees that Botch was getting the call on to LH's? Those were gifts.

Well of course they were. The umps are always out to get the Sox except when Billie is pitching...

You folks are really reaching now...

WinningUgly!
05-03-2004, 11:33 PM
I don't think it's fair to the rest of the team, to keep bringing Koch in when games are on the line. He's only blown one save, but he puts the team in a position to lose every time he takes the mound. It's not like he's simply allowing a base-runner or two & pitching out of it. He's hitting batters, giving up tons of walks & consistently gets hit hard. I understand that Ozzie is trying to get Koch's confidence up by allowing him to pitch in save situations, but when a team has momentum like the Sox do right now, pissing away a lead in the 9th is the ultimate momentum killer. We've been very lucky to hang on & win most of the games Koch has pitched in, but everybody knows it's just a matter of time until that changes.

kermittheefrog
05-03-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Konerko05
I'm sick and tired of you people who know nothing about baseball defending this joke of a pitcher. It figures that you would also take a shot at Foulke in your post. I don't know if you know this but Foulke is one of the best relievers in baseball, and he has been, even when all you people complained he didn't have the "makeup" to be a closer.

All Koch has to do is come in and get 3 outs before the other team scores 3 runs(not to mention he was facing the bottom of the order). The fact that he walked 3 guys in that inning is just plain horrible. Koch is just not good. And you are right, even when he was throwing 100, he would be like this because he never has been a very good pitcher. Foulke has been lightyears better than him over the last 5 years. Now that koch can barely throw 92, he sucks even more.

I can't believe anyone who has watched one game of baseball can compare Koch with Foulke.

I agree with all of this, especially the anger.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
You might be fine with it. I'm not.

READ IT AGAIN!

consistently practically blowing a 3-run lead = NOT BLOWING THE LEAD!

Again, no one is saying that Billy should be allowed to blow a bunch of games, but hey, occasionally ALL pitchers have rough ones. Billy got it done. In the end that is ALL that matters.

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well of course they were. The umps are always out to get the Sox except when Billie is pitching...

You folks are really reaching now...

And the Botch backers are reaching saying there's nothing wrong with what happened tonight..... something that happens on a regular basis where Botch is concerned.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
Voodo,

I'm enjoying this. I'm just going to continue to look at Koch with a jaundiced eye. If he gets the job done great.

We've got seven games with the Twinkies and a series against Texas and Anaheim. If he can make it through that stretch relatively unscathed then we may have something.

Completely agree. He has to continue to get the job done, but how that happens means next to nothing to me.

Hondo
05-03-2004, 11:38 PM
I would just like to see a closer that operates with a larger margain of error.

That should probably be in deep pink.

The one pitch Koch has is that two seam fastball that has good movement. He just isn't locating it enough. Can he fix that? Probably. Like I said, the by end of May I think will have enough of a body of work to decide.

My bet it ain't happening. But I hope I'm wrong

stillz
05-03-2004, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:cleo

Is that you?

Indeed, Voodoo.

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Hondo
I would just like to see a closer that operates with a larger margain of error.

That should probably be in deep pink.

I'd like to see a closer like Gagne who comes in in the 9th with a one run lead and strikes out the side.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I'd like to see a closer like Gagne who comes in in the 9th with a one run lead and strikes out the side.

Exactly how many guys are there like that in baseball?

Well, there's Gagne... and um... er...Rivera (for $10m a year) and um... hang on there... it's coming to me...

kermittheefrog
05-03-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Exactly how many guys are there like that in baseball?

Well, there's Gagne... and um... er...Rivera (for $10m a year) and um... hang on there... it's coming to me...

And Keith Foulke.

voodoochile
05-03-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
And Keith Foulke.

unless it's the playoffs that is...

CubKilla
05-03-2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
unless it's the playoffs that is...

Botch did so well in the last game '02 ALDS playoffs against Minnesota for the A's.....

SEALgep
05-03-2004, 11:52 PM
That was the second outing that he had to get 4 outs in an inning. BJ Surhoff was punched out and ended up walking. Koch didn't pitch absolutely great, but it's very tough to get four outs, especially when one of them becomes another base runner. Good job Koch, it was still a good performance all in all.

ChiSox7
05-03-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
unless it's the playoffs that is...

Even during the regular season he had trouble last year. Ask Tim Hudson how many wins Foulke's pitching cost him. I believe it was around 5 or 6 beacuse of blown saves.

inta
05-03-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
And the Botch backers are reaching saying there's nothing wrong with what happened tonight..... something that happens on a regular basis where Botch is concerned.

wow, you really dont watch the games do you?
watch all the games koch did fine in before tonight. including the two 1-2-3 innings vs TO this past weekend (in case you're long term memory impaired)
please back up this "regular basis" with some facts. and dont throw 2003 out there coz i'll just trump you with 2002.

the "killa" in your name must be synonymous with "booster"... cubs fans went on a similiar crying streak when maddux blew 3 games in a row.

actually that seems more justifiable than crying about giving up a few walks in a WIN.

crissakes people.

kermittheefrog
05-04-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
unless it's the playoffs that is...

Those five games were really telling. Weren't Barry Bonds and Randy Johnson once thought of as being weak in the playoffs as well?

kermittheefrog
05-04-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Even during the regular season he had trouble last year. Ask Tim Hudson how many wins Foulke's pitching cost him. I believe it was around 5 or 6 beacuse of blown saves.

Keith Foulke blew five saves all year, he had a 2.08 ERA and he made the all-star team. He is great pitcher, it's time to give up the BS that he's not because he had one bad month.

ChiSox7
05-04-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Keith Foulke blew five saves all year, he had a 2.08 ERA and he made the all-star team. He is great pitcher, it's time to give up the BS that he's not because he had one bad month.

Foulke is a great pitcher. But it wasn't always easy like everyone here likes to say.

CubKilla
05-04-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by inta
the "killa" in your name must be synonymous with "booster"... cubs fans went on a similiar crying streak when maddux blew 3 games in a row.

Next time you're at The Cell, ask the people around Lot E that are tailgating if I'm there. Most of the Sox fans that tailgate at The Cell that matter know who I am. If one of them points me out to you, come up to me and say that to my face punk.

ChiSox7
05-04-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Keith Foulke blew five saves all year, he had a 2.08 ERA and he made the all-star team. He is great pitcher, it's time to give up the BS that he's not because he had one bad month.

And additionally, if Koch has only one blown save a month, especially with all the close games we've played this month, then I'll be extremely excited.

Thigpen Rules
05-04-2004, 12:12 AM
Have you guys seen the other Closers in the league, They are HORRIBLE.

Koch is fine, he got the save didnt he, so what every closer is wild, all he did was walk a few guys, IT HAPPENS,

our bullpen is SOLID , best it has been in years

Is Koch Bobby Thigpen ? no, but he;s fine

voodoochile
05-04-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Keith Foulke blew five saves all year, he had a 2.08 ERA and he made the all-star team. He is great pitcher, it's time to give up the BS that he's not because he had one bad month.

Maybe it is time to get over the fact that he doesn't play for the Sox anymore...

Even if what you say is true and Foulke is a great pitcher (I always liked him actually), now we are up to 3 (count them 3) stud closers who are considered lights out.

That means the other 27 teams are in the same boat as the Sox. Wringing their hands, holding their breath and hoping the closer du jour doesn't crap his pants and blow the game.

The Sox don't have one guy who can consistently be the man. Right now, the closest thing they have is Koch in terms of mental makeup and his stuff seems to be coming around. He struggled tonight, yes. Still, he has had a solid year and seems to be improving. Ozzie did the right thing from a team perspective to leave him in there tonight. Time will tell if he will become the lights out guy we all hope he can be, but it is WAY to early to be bitching and moaning this hard about a game the Sox won, IMO.

elrod
05-04-2004, 12:14 AM
Before tonight Billy Koch had only 3 walks all season. He's been hit hard a lot but he hasn't walked many people. In fact, I notice he does a great job getting ahead of almost every hitter - usually to 2 strikes. But he doesn't have an out pitch. How many times are batters going to foul off 4 pitches from him? Every two-strike foul means another chance to get the timing down. If Koch had an off-speed he could destroy these hitters. Tonight was actually odd by Koch standards in that he walked three batters. He probably WAS flustered by the BJ call. Too bad. Because it's going to happen again and he needs to be steadier.

voodoochile
05-04-2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Thigpen Rules
Have you guys seen the other Closers in the league, They are HORRIBLE.

Koch is fine, he got the save didnt he, so what every closer is wild, all he did was walk a few guys, IT HAPPENS,

our bullpen is SOLID , best it has been in years

Is Koch Bobby Thigpen ? no, but he;s fine

Even Bobby was a walking stress factory. That man put 2 people on base ALL the time. Yet he still holds the ML record for saves in a season.

idseer
05-04-2004, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
but it is WAY to early to be bitching and moaning this hard about a game the Sox won, IMO.

i don't think that's an accurate portrayal of those that are slamming koch. no one is bitching about the 'game we won', they're bitching about a players performance. i see nothing wrong with that since it was so OBVIOUSLY a bad performance.

i will agree with you in one respect. i don't care how bad the team plays ..... as long as they win every game.

cheeses_h_rice
05-04-2004, 12:37 AM
Yeah, the Sox won, just like they've done a lot of these games where Koch makes it more interesting than he has to, but please don't think that that streak of good luck will continue. We have a real problem on our hands -- Koch can simply not throw strikes at times, especially when he comes in fresh. He does not pitch 1-2-3 innings in close games. Period.

The Sox are going to get burned, and burned hard, by Koch multiple times this year. Mark it.

A. Cavatica
05-04-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Even Bobby was a walking stress factory. That man put 2 people on base ALL the time. Yet he still holds the ML record for saves in a season.

Yup. Koch 2002 was a lot like Thigpen 1990. Koch just went downhill a little faster.

kermittheefrog
05-04-2004, 12:52 AM
Koch is clearly not the best pitcher in our pen. The only guy in the White Sox pen who is less frightening than a clan rally is Marte. And maybe Cotts given his strong performance thus far. On the other hand, the only person in the pen scarier than Koch is Eight Walks in Nine Innings Jon Adkins. I really don't get why anyone has reason to be confident in Koch. How about we take a look at his ERA of recent years:

2001: 4.80
2002: 3.27
2003: 5.77
2004: 5.11

What doesn't fit in there? Koch is a six run inning waiting to happen. At every turn he's prepared to groove a BP fastball, throw four straight balls, or pluck a batter when he lucks into an 0-2 count. He's not even the impress the scouts with his 99 mph fastball guy anymore. He's just a guy with two or three average major league pitches, struggling to adjust to losing his excellent velocity. Oh and did I mention back when he still threw 99 he sported a 4.80 ERA in 2001?

Can someone give me one reason to have confidence in Koch? He wasn't even that impressive in 2002 when he had an ERA in the 3's.

ChiSox7
05-04-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Koch is clearly not the best pitcher in our pen. The only guy in the White Sox pen who is less frightening than a clan rally is Marte. And maybe Cotts given his strong performance thus far. On the other hand, the only person in the pen scarier than Koch is Eight Walks in Nine Innings Jon Adkins. I really don't get why anyone has reason to be confident in Koch. How about we take a look at his ERA of recent years:

2001: 4.80
2002: 3.27
2003: 5.77
2004: 5.11

What doesn't fit in there? Koch is a six run inning waiting to happen. At every turn he's prepared to groove a BP fastball, throw four straight balls, or pluck a batter when he lucks into an 0-2 count. He's not even the impress the scouts with his 99 mph fastball guy anymore. He's just a guy with two or three average major league pitches, struggling to adjust to losing his excellent velocity. Oh and did I mention back when he still threw 99 he sported a 4.80 ERA in 2001?

Can someone give me one reason to have confidence in Koch? He wasn't even that impressive in 2002 when he had an ERA in the 3's.

What doesn't fit in there was

1999: 3.39
2000: 2.63

Is he the same pitcher? No. But don't throw 2001 in there if you don't throw the other two in there.

TaylorStSox
05-04-2004, 01:01 AM
The pitch to Surhoff was a ball. It was close, but a ball. Anyway, Koch isn't a closer. Obviously. What other choices do we have right now? Face it. We're bullpen by commitee until we can pick up somebody in a trade. If we're in the hunt, KW will make a move. This we know for sure.

depy48
05-04-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
He got the job done, did he have defensive help... sure, but did he blow the save, no he didn't, I could careless what his era is, if he keeps getting saves he's the closer.

a la Jose Mesa

depy48
05-04-2004, 01:11 AM
Didnt Koch have somewhat of a glamorous scoreless inning streak going into today's game? Yesterdays game he looked pretty good as well. What really has impressed me is that he is getting ahead of hitters. If Koch can contiually get 0-2, 1-2 on hitters, then I am fine with letting him close games.

kermittheefrog
05-04-2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
What doesn't fit in there was

1999: 3.39
2000: 2.63

Is he the same pitcher? No. But don't throw 2001 in there if you don't throw the other two in there.

While you have a point about people sometimes choosing what numbers or time frame to look at, I chose those years for a reason. I looked at the last 3 years plus this year because most player projection systems look at the last three years to make projections. I think it's fair to say data beyond the last three seasons isn't very important in making educated guesses about future performance.

Also if you look at Koch's peripherals stats, outside of just ERA, his 99 and 00 seasons are nothing like the following ones. From 2001-2003 he pitched poorly. I would argue that he got some help in 2002 from Oakland's park which allowed him to cut down on homers and look good on paper.

chisox06
05-04-2004, 01:57 AM
Koch sucks (yea I already know that). We won.

soxtalker
05-04-2004, 09:05 AM
When we got Koch in the trade, the word from Oakland fans was that this is what we could expect. I still remember a post from one of the A's fans (or a message to one of our members who, in turn, posted it) which told us about Koch's tendency to turn most save situations scary.

I am worried. Sure, we've been able to live with it so far, and, maybe, it won't hurt us too much during the regular season. As someone else posted, let's see what happens when we face premier teams like Red Sox and Angels. But in the play offs, the pitching should be better and runs harder to come by. We might not have the luxury of three-run leads that can be squandered.

Here's a related question. If we did abandon Koch, what alternatives do we have? Everyone focuses on Marte, but is Takatsu a possibility? (Oh, and by "abandon", I'd hope that his trade value has increased with the number of saves he has.)

SSN721
05-04-2004, 09:16 AM
He had a bad outing yes, but as it has been stated we dont have a lot of options here. You have Rivera, Gagne, and Foulke, than everybody else. The other supposed premier closers have not been performing well, so at the worst we have the same situation as the rest of the League. If he can get the job done, even if he looks bad, then thats all we can ask for. I just hope that things keep coming up lucky for him when he isnt on so he can keep getting saves. I just dont see us having any other viable options right now inside the pen. ANd I dont know who we could pick up that would make me feel anymore comfortable.

BeerHandle
05-04-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Konerko05
I don't ever want to see him in a game again. Thats all I have to say.

I was amazed that Koch's fast ball was between 94-96 mph and had good movement. He has not had movement on his fast ball since he has been with the Sox. I have heard that Olivo and Alomar need to stop lining up over the corners. They should line up directly behind the plate and let the ball do the work.

Kilroy
05-04-2004, 09:21 AM
I'd like to hear all the folks saying not to worry say the same thing if we're going into a playoff series w/ Koch closing.

Picture it. Game 7 ALCS, bottom of the 9th, 2 run lead, and Koch strolling to the bump. And just to make it fun, let's say they're playing in the Bronx.

With that much on the line, and that guy on the hill, I'm not sure I'd be able to watch.

Dadawg_77
05-04-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I'd like to hear all the folks saying not to worry say the same thing if we're going into a playoff series w/ Koch closing.

Picture it. Game 7 ALCS, bottom of the 9th, 2 run lead, and Koch strolling to the bump. And just to make it fun, let's say they're playing in the Bronx.

With that much on the line, and that guy on the hill, I'm not sure I'd be able to watch.

I am sure West has heard the pain about this "hypothetical" scenario.

SoxFan78
05-04-2004, 10:16 AM
For all of you Koch supporters out there, answer me this. How can you justify your closer walking 3 guys in an inning???? This guy consistently walks/lets hits up every time he is in there. Get him out of the closer spot. He got lucky last night thanks to Uribe. Its sad when you are at home and you see Koch and you know he's gonna let up a run.

Harry Chappas Jr
05-04-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
When Koch walked the second guy to put em on 1st and second, Hawk did his trademark "nooo." Hawk knew what was coming, but it never came. 10-1 in one run games.

Da-na na na na na ..HEY!


How 'bout this? When Wunsch comes back, put Cotts in the rotation and use Marte as the closer. I trust him more than Koch.

blackjack29
05-04-2004, 10:21 AM
I heard on the radio about a week ago that Kock has yet to have 1-2-3 inning in the ninth since he has joined the Sox. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, a change has to be made soon.

elrod
05-04-2004, 10:22 AM
For all of you Koch supporters out there, answer me this. How can you justify your closer walking 3 guys in an inning???? This guy consistently walks/lets hits up every time he is in there.

No. Koch gave up only three walks all season before last night. His problem is that he gets ahead of every hitter but then they foul him off about 4 times and finally get one they can hit. He needs an out pitch - off speed would be great. Without that he's mediocre.

WWIII
05-04-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by SpartanSoxFan
I simply don't understand how we couldn't given up on Keith so easily in the first place. What, he had one bad season so we throw in the towel on keeping him??? How many blown saves and crap seasons by Krotchhead do we Sox fans have to put up with before he is put to pasture??? Last time I checked, Keith Foulke has put up some good numbers with Oakland and Boston since we let him go.

Koch was a good reliever before we got him. He had one bad season with us, just like Foulke. Yet you defend Foulke, but rip Koch. Koch is 4 for 5 in saves. His velocity is up from last year, his location is better. The more he plays, the better he'll get. Ozzie knows this which is why he still plays him. Just like Foulke got over his bad year, give Koch a chance to do the same, and I believe he will.

inta
05-04-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by SoxFan78
For all of you Koch supporters out there, answer me this. How can you justify your closer walking 3 guys in an inning???? This guy consistently walks/lets hits up every time he is in there. Get him out of the closer spot. He got lucky last night thanks to Uribe. Its sad when you are at home and you see Koch and you know he's gonna let up a run.

this is just completely inaccurate.
please pay more attention to the sox games and stats before making ridiculous statements like this.
check the stats for all his games so far this year. i think you'll be very surprised.


sometimes WSI is like a henhouse, once one starts clucking, everyone joins in.

Kilroy
05-04-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by blackjack29
I heard on the radio about a week ago that Kock has yet to have 1-2-3 inning in the ninth since he has joined the Sox. I don't know if this is true, but if it is, a change has to be made soon.

I heard them saying that, too. Koch had a 1-2-3 9th this past weekend when we lost 10-6 to the Jays. He also had a 1-2-3 8th against the D-Rays earlier this year in the 3-0 loss.

I don't know about last year, and I don't know if he's had one for us in a WIN. I'd bet no on that...

jabrch
05-04-2004, 11:28 AM
:tomatoaward

SEALgep
05-04-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by SoxFan78
For all of you Koch supporters out there, answer me this. How can you justify your closer walking 3 guys in an inning???? This guy consistently walks/lets hits up every time he is in there. Get him out of the closer spot. He got lucky last night thanks to Uribe. Its sad when you are at home and you see Koch and you know he's gonna let up a run. Because he really only had two walks with an added base runner, which actually translates into four outs, because BJ Surhoff was punched out, no doubt about it. The ball was well inside the corner, and the ump let it go. He walked him afterwards, but the out should have already been recorded. With that said, it's very difficult for any pitcher to overcome four outs in an inning. That's not to say Koch was stellar, but he wasn't as bad as it turned out.

jabrch
05-04-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by SoxFan78
For all of you Koch supporters out there, answer me this. How can you justify your closer walking 3 guys in an inning???? This guy consistently walks/lets hits up every time he is in there. Get him out of the closer spot. He got lucky last night thanks to Uribe. Its sad when you are at home and you see Koch and you know he's gonna let up a run.


Here's the facts. If you take out April 14th vs KC from Koch's season, he has given up only 3 runs in 11.2 IP. That's about a 2.31 ERA. His WHIP over that same period of time is just over 1. (12W+H/11.2IP) Opposing hitters are, during that same period of time, hitting a measley .200 against him. It's not like he is that terrible. Come on...

chidonez
05-04-2004, 11:40 AM
There are no excuses for Koch. He's retired the side in only 4 of his 20 save attempts in Chicago. And it's not the hits that bother me. It's the damn walks! It's unlikely a team is going to hit safely that many times in an inning (already down 3), but walks give them the chance.

SoxxoS
05-04-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Here's the facts. If you take out April 14th vs KC from Koch's season, he has given up only 3 runs in 11.2 IP. That's about a 2.31 ERA. His WHIP over that same period of time is just over 1. (12W+H/11.2IP) Opposing hitters are, during that same period of time, hitting a measley .200 against him. It's not like he is that terrible. Come on...

It's too bad you just can't take that one bad inning out of everyone's ERA. Or that 0-5 with 4 K day for a hitter.

That is what makes stats...stats. You take the good with the bad.

If you are going to use stats, show the one that means something...especially to a closer...WHIP. How many baserunners is he allowing?

poorme
05-04-2004, 11:43 AM
Koch is brutal.

Kilroy
05-04-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by inta
this is just completely inaccurate.
please pay more attention to the sox games and stats before making ridiculous statements like this.
check the stats for all his games so far this year. i think you'll be very surprised.


sometimes WSI is like a henhouse, once one starts clucking, everyone joins in.

I think you're mistaken, inta. Koch has 13 appearances this year, and is averaging almost 5 batters faced per appearance. So when someone says they know he's is going to walk someone or give up some hits, that's fairly accurate.

And w/ 7 earned runs in those 13 outings, there's about a 50% chance that he's gonna give up at least 1 run.

mdep524
05-04-2004, 11:53 AM
This is really simple: Koch was never a great pitcher, he got the job done with a blazing 99 mph fastball that provided him with a.) an out pitch and b.) a little room to get away with mistakes. He never had control, smarts, or any breaking stuff. Now, in 2004 he does not have the 99 mph fastball. So now he doesn't have an out pitch, room to get away with mistakes, control, smarts, or breaking stuff.

SO WHAT EXACTLY MAKES HIM AN "ACE" RELIEVER????

Why must we pretend like something magical will happen with him?? There is literally NO evidence to suggest he can be dominant anymore, based on the above paragraph, so why continue to make excuses for him? He isn't even above average in ANY of those 5 categories I mentioned, so how is he more capable of pitching the ninth inning than say, Jon Adkins or anybody else? The answer is he's not, and the Sox need to stop stubbornly relying on some simplistic and completely inaccurate paradigm that "Koch is our closer/Koch is the best man for the job" and get him the hell out of here.

Can any Koch apologists respond to this? And don't give me the "he can learn to locate to be effective" BS, because every other pitcher on the staff or in AAA can "learn to locate" as well, so that doesn't set Koch apart.

tstrike2000
05-04-2004, 12:51 PM
I think allot of us Sox fans try to give Koch the benefit of the doubt, however, how much more patience can you have with him. Unfortunately, he just doesn't demonstrate much of anything good from a pitching perspective. He shows poor mechanics for a pitcher, which leads to poor location with his fastball, which is why he's always behind in the count. Then he has no confidence in his breaking stuff, because he can't locate it well either. When he gets behind in the count, it's typically a walk or the dreaded "get me over" fastball comes and they tee off on it. I want to like his persona as a pitcher, but how much longer can you keep using him? He's never consistently had a below 5.00 ERA, which for a closer is just atrocious. Even some of the heart attack innings Foulke gave us, he typically had a below 3.00 ERA, which is what you need from a reliable closer. That plus the fact Koch has only had 1 1-2-3 inning and that was back last weekend against Toronto, is just amazing. If we're in the hunt come July...we cannot rely in Koch as a closer...because if you use him, you could use any of the guys we have as a closer. In a more perfect world, we have one more starter, a different closer, and a different lead-off/2B but that's a different story. :gulp:

SoxFan78
05-04-2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by inta
this is just completely inaccurate.
please pay more attention to the sox games and stats before making ridiculous statements like this.
check the stats for all his games so far this year. i think you'll be very surprised.


sometimes WSI is like a henhouse, once one starts clucking, everyone joins in.

How is this comptletely innaccurate?? In Billy Koch's carrer with the White Sox he has had only ONE 1-2-3 inning. So in order for the inning to go on, he would have to either give up a walk or a hit. Lets look at last night. Yeah, he got the save, but he let up two runs. What if the Sox would of been up by only one run? Guess what, lots of people on this board would be calling for his hide.

Don't get me wrong, Im happy we won and Im happy the way the team is playing. But we see Koch out there in closing situations and if he does get the save, he gets it barely. What happens when the tide changes and we are losing those one run games because Billy can't hold onto a lead?

A 5.40 ERA for a closer that pitches 1-2 innings a game is not comforting. Hopefully he can improve later in the year and show us how he won that reliever of the year award when he was with Oakland.

Kilroy
05-04-2004, 01:48 PM
Where did the idea that Koch had no or only one 1-2-3 inning while with the Sox come from? Koch's first appearance against KC last year was a 1-2-3 in the bottom of the 8th.

Just looking over his appearances from last year, he had 12 appearances where he had 3 batters faced, 1 inning pitched. I didn't look to see how many times he got someone on and got a DP, but I know that there was at least one 1-2-3 9th against Detroit on April 4th.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm not digging out all of those game logs. But once and for all, let's stop saying the guy never had a 1-2-3 with the Sox when it's so easy to look and see.

iwannago
05-04-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Konerko05
I don't ever want to see him in a game again. Thats all I have to say.

A W is a W and a Save is a Save. Sorry the Sox can't win 12 to 0 every night. You sound like my inlaws.

Kilroy
05-04-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
You sound like my inlaws.


"I don't ever wanna see him at our house on Christmas or Thanksgiving again..."

You mean like that?

FoulTerritory
05-04-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
This is really simple: Koch was never a great pitcher, he got the job done with a blazing 99 mph fastball that provided him with a.) an out pitch and b.) a little room to get away with mistakes. He never had control, smarts, or any breaking stuff. Now, in 2004 he does not have the 99 mph fastball. So now he doesn't have an out pitch, room to get away with mistakes, control, smarts, or breaking stuff.

SO WHAT EXACTLY MAKES HIM AN "ACE" RELIEVER????

Why must we pretend like something magical will happen with him?? There is literally NO evidence to suggest he can be dominant anymore, based on the above paragraph, so why continue to make excuses for him? He isn't even above average in ANY of those 5 categories I mentioned, so how is he more capable of pitching the ninth inning than say, Jon Adkins or anybody else? The answer is he's not, and the Sox need to stop stubbornly relying on some simplistic and completely inaccurate paradigm that "Koch is our closer/Koch is the best man for the job" and get him the hell out of here.

Can any Koch apologists respond to this? And don't give me the "he can learn to locate to be effective" BS, because every other pitcher on the staff or in AAA can "learn to locate" as well, so that doesn't set Koch apart.



This is an excellent post. I mean, lets face it, the only possible point of argumentation is whether or not Koch should even be allowed on the team. Four 1-2-3 innings out of 20 save opportunities in his sox career!-- this stat was in the suntimes today -- that is beyond abysmal.

I always thought your closer was supposed to be the ace of your bullpen, but Koch is probably the worst pitcher in our bullpen. So perhaps the true debate should be about whether or not he should even be wasting a roster spot.

Marte's era has been in the 2 - 2.5 area for the past two years, and despite his horrid outing on opening day, has been steadily shrinking back towards that point again. This is an ERA that Koch can only fantasize about. Unbelievable! It took till the 4th of July for Manuel to get Koch out of the closer's role last year, lets only hope that Ozzie, who is doing a fantastic job in nearly every respect, doesn't also wait that long to demote Koch.

Do not underestimate the power of the Koch situation to bite us in the ass, just as it did last year. And even if we get into the playoffs with him still closing, omg, you can't survive with this guy trying to close games in the post-season. Its impossible.

habibharu
05-04-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
This is an excellent post. I mean, lets face it, the only possible point of argumentation is whether or not Koch should even be allowed on the team. Four 1-2-3 innings out of 20 save opportunities in his sox career!-- this stat was in the suntimes today -- that is beyond abysmal.

I always thought your closer was supposed to be the ace of your bullpen, but Koch is probably the worst pitcher in our bullpen. So perhaps the true debate should be about whether or not he should even be wasting a roster spot.

Marte's era has been in the 2 - 2.5 area for the past two years, and despite his horrid outing on opening day, has been steadily shrinking back towards that point again. This is an ERA that Koch can only fantasize about. Unbelievable! It took till the 4th of July for Manuel to get Koch out of the closer's role last year, lets only hope that Ozzie, who is doing a fantastic job in nearly every respect, doesn't also wait that long to demote Koch.

Do not underestimate the power of the Koch situation to bite us in the ass, just as it did last year. And even if we get into the playoffs with him still closing, omg, you can't survive with this guy trying to close games in the post-season. Its impossible. if we put marte at closer then we would have to bring up wunsch to be a left specialist.

FoulTerritory
05-04-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
if we put marte at closer then we would have to bring up wunsch to be a left specialist.

I agree. And using Marte as closer does of course raise questions and new dilemmas, especially if Wunsch can't stay healthy. But in my opinion, at this point any option that does not include Koch being closer is better any option that keeps him as closer.

KW and Ozzie need to be creative, and do everything in their power to sort through this problem. But standing pat and waiting for Koch to implode is not the best route. We should be thankful that we have been able to procure the knowledge and evidence that Koch is still bad, and not get burned by it yet. But the longer we keep throwing him out there . . . . well, this is a recipe for disaster IMO

SpringfldFan
05-04-2004, 02:21 PM
As frustrating as that performance was last night, I am not throwing in the towel on Koch. I don't know if it will be a net positive or negative, but Koch this year is differerent then the 2003 Koch or even the Koch of before that. Last year the complaint was that he had no velocity and his pitches were straight as an arrow. In 2002 he at least had good velocity but that was it. This year is different because in addition to recovering some of his velocity, he now has *movement*. That fastball had movement I am not used to seeing from him. I don't know how many of us saw the ESPN telecast (I got it in entirety down here) but they were commenting on how the two seamer is a new weapon for Billy this year and how he is now more effective trying to locate versus airing it out. The walks were inexcusable, no doubt. Even if it was because he was upset over the no-call 3rd strike, it does not speak well for a closer to get rattled by something like that. Nevertheless, he has different weapons this year then last year. He still may fail, but there is reason to think he will end up alright.

depy48
05-04-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
This is really simple: Koch was never a great pitcher, he got the job done with a blazing 99 mph fastball that provided him with a.) an out pitch and b.) a little room to get away with mistakes. He never had control, smarts, or any breaking stuff. Now, in 2004 he does not have the 99 mph fastball. So now he doesn't have an out pitch, room to get away with mistakes, control, smarts, or breaking stuff.

SO WHAT EXACTLY MAKES HIM AN "ACE" RELIEVER????

Why must we pretend like something magical will happen with him?? There is literally NO evidence to suggest he can be dominant anymore, based on the above paragraph, so why continue to make excuses for him? He isn't even above average in ANY of those 5 categories I mentioned, so how is he more capable of pitching the ninth inning than say, Jon Adkins or anybody else? The answer is he's not, and the Sox need to stop stubbornly relying on some simplistic and completely inaccurate paradigm that "Koch is our closer/Koch is the best man for the job" and get him the hell out of here.

Can any Koch apologists respond to this? And don't give me the "he can learn to locate to be effective" BS, because every other pitcher on the staff or in AAA can "learn to locate" as well, so that doesn't set Koch apart.

The one thing Koch does have is guts. He isnt afraid to attack hitters, and he doesnt fear getting hit. I respect Koch's tenacity, and in many save situations it comes down to who wants it more Koch or the hitter...Koch will ALWAYS want it more. Just in pure aducaity Koch has something that most otherclosers dont have.

idseer
05-04-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by depy48
The one thing Koch does have is guts. He isnt afraid to attack hitters, and he doesnt fear getting hit. I respect Koch's tenacity, and in many save situations it comes down to who wants it more Koch or the hitter...Koch will ALWAYS want it more. Just in pure aducaity Koch has something that most otherclosers dont have.

or you mistake guts for lack of concern. maybe he's not afraid because he doesn't give a ****.

Gumshoe
05-04-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by depy48
The one thing Koch does have is guts. He isnt afraid to attack hitters, and he doesnt fear getting hit. I respect Koch's tenacity, and in many save situations it comes down to who wants it more Koch or the hitter...Koch will ALWAYS want it more. Just in pure aducaity Koch has something that most otherclosers dont have.

Whoever created the "WANT IT MORE" slogan should be shot. Some guys have it, some guys don't. These are all major leaguers. They don't want to succeed? Come on. If you have the talent, you'll do it.

Koch doesn't have anything anymore. Not last year, not this year. You can only get by with what he has been doing for a month. If they keep running him out there, WSI will have more posts up for Koch's head than it has of Randar's idiotic comments.

Randar68
05-04-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Whoever created the "WANT IT MORE" slogan should be shot. Some guys have it, some guys don't. These are all major leaguers. They don't want to succeed? Come on. If you have the talent, you'll do it.

Koch doesn't have anything anymore. Not last year, not this year. You can only get by with what he has been doing for a month. If they keep running him out there, WSI will have more posts up for Koch's head than it has of Randar's idiotic comments.


Gumshoe! Man, you've certainly been laying low. How's that Aaron Rowand character doing? That's some "fantastic CF" he's playing isn't it....


Now those are idiotic comments...

Randar68
05-04-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
WSI will have more posts up for Koch's head than it has of Randar's idiotic comments.

Awesome. Someone has to try to make a few intelligent posts around here. You calling them idiotic really does validate them, though, since you've been accurate or correct an absolutely zero so far...

Thanks, GummyBear...



BLA!

TheRockinMT
05-04-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by inta
you hand wringers sound like a bunch of old ladies.

it's called baseball. things arent going to always be a walk in the park.

koch has always been kind of wild, but he's also gotten great strikes like the ones you saw tonight if you pulled your skirt away from your face for a minute in the 9th.


We won the game and that's all that matters from that game. I'll let Cooper and Guillen kick Billy around. They will get him going again. Comment was made about Koch overthrowing and losing his control. He supposedly hit 98 MPH on the radar gun for at least one pitch.

tstrike2000
05-04-2004, 04:48 PM
Ok, I was wrong that Koch has had 4 1-2-3 innings and not just 1. If we have to use that statistic, along with Koch's tenacity, to justify him being our closer, that's not a good thing. It doesn't matter his attitude, the bottom line is is you have to field your best team on the field to win. Koch has never been one of those guys that you'd consider giving you the best chance to win. Chicago sports in general has been too lenient of mediocrity. How many times can someone hear a telecast of Hawk and DJ and hear DJ say, "Koch repeatedly get's himself into jams, but he's a battler." I agree 100% with two earlier comments that Koch is the worst pitcher in the bullpen and that Marte should not be our closer because that takes a valuable setup specialist away from our bullpen since Wunsch can never stay healthy for a full season. You don't have to have a 99 mph fastball to be a closer, just don't walk guys and throw strikes. Good example is Rod Beck.

Dadawg_77
05-04-2004, 04:54 PM
Koch good be a good closer but not a great relief pitcher. I surely don't want him coming in with men on base, my definition of a great relief pitcher is a guy who won't let people on base score.

Al Capone
05-04-2004, 05:31 PM
:gulp:
Koch MAKES ME WANA DRINK!

SoxEd
05-04-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Al Capone
:gulp:
Koch MAKES ME WANA DRINK!

As in 'here's to ya Billy, you da MAN'?

or as in 'Oy vey, it's that schmuck Koch again, where's my schnapps'?

mr_genius
05-04-2004, 06:56 PM
I'm sick of this "it's ok, cause we still won" nonsense that Ozzie and Koch give in interviews after Koch almost blows the lead.

We need to try one of the other guys in the pen out as the closer. Maybe that cat from Japan... yea i know, "he sucks mr_idiot".


let him prove that he's worse

Daver
05-04-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by mr_genius
I'm sick of this "it's ok, cause we still won" nonsense that Ozzie and Koch give in interviews after Koch almost blows the lead.

We need to try one of the other guys in the pen out as the closer. Maybe that cat from Japan... yea i know, "he sucks mr_idiot".


let him prove that he's worse


Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

voodoochile
05-04-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

I could have sworn MrG used to have an account here. Heck, I remember his OLD user name from ESPN way back when I was JJ35.

Randar68
05-04-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I could have sworn MrG used to have an account here. Heck, I remember his OLD user name from ESPN way back when I was JJ35.

Agree... JustJim, it seems like yesterday you had that name...

HITMEN OF 77
05-04-2004, 07:25 PM
I'll take a sloppy win over a good loss any day of the week.

jabrch
05-04-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by mr_genius
I'm sick of this "it's ok, cause we still won" nonsense that Ozzie and Koch give in interviews after Koch almost blows the lead.

We need to try one of the other guys in the pen out as the closer. Maybe that cat from Japan... yea i know, "he sucks mr_idiot".


let him prove that he's worse

It IS ok - we DID win.

mdep524
05-04-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
As frustrating as that performance was last night, I am not throwing in the towel on Koch. I don't know if it will be a net positive or negative, but Koch this year is differerent then the 2003 Koch or even the Koch of before that. Last year the complaint was that he had no velocity and his pitches were straight as an arrow. In 2002 he at least had good velocity but that was it. This year is different because in addition to recovering some of his velocity, he now has *movement*. That fastball had movement I am not used to seeing from him. I don't know how many of us saw the ESPN telecast (I got it in entirety down here) but they were commenting on how the two seamer is a new weapon for Billy this year and how he is now more effective trying to locate versus airing it out. The walks were inexcusable, no doubt. Even if it was because he was upset over the no-call 3rd strike, it does not speak well for a closer to get rattled by something like that. Nevertheless, he has different weapons this year then last year. He still may fail, but there is reason to think he will end up alright.


Originally posted by depy48


The one thing Koch does have is guts. He isnt afraid to attack hitters, and he doesnt fear getting hit. I respect Koch's tenacity, and in many save situations it comes down to who wants it more Koch or the hitter...Koch will ALWAYS want it more. Just in pure aducaity Koch has something that most otherclosers dont have.

Sorry guys, I respect everbody's point of view, so I will not make some demeaning comment to you, but I feel VERY strongly on this issue and I think you are both way way off on this one. Reread your posts, to me it is really a stretch, and it's lame. Movement? Guts? Come on. You're grabbing at straws.

You think he can have a miraculous career turnaround because he has *some* movement on his pitches? Also, no offense but I do not respect Koch's attitude at all.

dirty-mutt
05-04-2004, 09:09 PM
I dont understand
regardless of Koch's ability to make hearts skip beats who is ozzie supposed to put in there. Marte? does anyone really think he is that much of a better option than Koch? it doesnt matter koch is getting paid $6 mill he is our man whether we like it or not In the end he gets the S, sox get the W.

mdep524
05-04-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
I'll take a sloppy win over a good loss any day of the week.

I agree this is a good little theoretical motto, but in reality if something can be improved you shouldn't just let it go because we won the game.

Koch is an embarrasment to anybody who can analyze and scruitinize pitching. *Any* halfway intelligent hitter will figure him out instantly, and it's embarrasing the Sox STILL haven't figured this out.

If the Sox really wanted to make a commitment to winning or statement to their fans, they would outright release Koch and pay him his $6.3 million salary. In most all other cases I would say this is a bad idea, and probably over-reaction, but this is the rare instance in which it would be beneficial. The fact is they have to pay his salary either way- it's a sunk cost. Thus, it should not even figure into the decision.

So why not show that his performance will not be tolerated? Fans would love it. I'd have a lot more respect for Reinsdorf/Williams et. al. if they did this.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2004, 09:14 PM
Habib says: "if we put Marte at closer then we would have to bring up Wunsch to be a left specialist."

And the problem with that is?????

Marte is the best guy we have in the bullpen right now. Wunsch's ERA in Charlotte is down to 3.5 in six appearances. This makes the team better...not worse.

Lip

mdep524
05-04-2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by dirty-mutt
I dont understand
regardless of Koch's ability to make hearts skip beats who is ozzie supposed to put in there. Marte? does anyone really think he is that much of a better option than Koch? it doesnt matter koch is getting paid $6 mill he is our man whether we like it or not In the end he gets the S, sox get the W.

Wow, I think I have to leave this thread. (big loss, right?? lol!) Seeing a post like this just burns me up, and makes me feel disheartened. :(:

dirty-mutt
05-04-2004, 09:24 PM
why? the man really has only blown one save so far. I dont see the problem with giving him another chance as long as he keeps that up. Yes he definitely is not worth 6 million but I cant see why everyone is so quick to argue, among other things, for his outright release. ITS A FREAKING WIN Until he outright blows another one why not let him keep on saving games for the time being at least???

I am definitely not opposed to having marte close and bringing wunsch back, but you know, the team acutally seems to be playing alright right now

dirty-mutt
05-04-2004, 09:33 PM
oh wait, no theyre not Koch ALMOST blew a save last night

FoulTerritory
05-04-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by dirty-mutt
why? the man really has only blown one save so far. I dont see the problem with giving him another chance as long as he keeps that up. Yes he definitely is not worth 6 million but I cant see why everyone is so quick to argue, among other things, for his outright release. ITS A FREAKING WIN Until he outright blows another one why not let him keep on saving games for the time being at least???

I am definitely not opposed to having marte close and bringing wunsch back, but you know, the team acutally seems to be playing alright right now


The thing is, I think there is actually some history and evidence, other than Koch currently sucking, to back up the argument for an immediate demotion of Koch, as opposed to the "he got the save, its a win, let him be for now" argument.

The evidence is that last year there were several people complaining that a change needed to be made well into the first half of the season, and every time he squeaked out a save, JM and the rest of the Koch apologists, kept insisting on that as reason to keep throwing him out there. But guess what, it blew up in our faces, as he eventually your luck runs out, you start blowing those games, and the people who were insisting on his demotion in May turned out to be right. Of course, JM didn't ultimately demote him until the incredibly morale devastating 4th of July game in Tampa, and by that time, significant damage was done, and KW had not taken measures to procure some bullpen help by the trading deadline.

The point, don't wait until the bomb blows up to try to defuse it. Admit the problem, and try to fix the problem, BEFORE it comes back to haunt you. We must learn from our mistakes, especially ones as immediate as last year. If Koch actually looked better than last year, that would be a different case, but he's still throwing the same 93 mph heater, and he can't spot his pitches at all. Lets not let history repeat itself.

dirty-mutt
05-04-2004, 09:52 PM
Alright. Koch is not special. His velocity is down, and while other closers can deal with not having a 99 mph fastball Koch needs one to be effective.

But I really don't care if it is him or Marte or Takatsu out there getting saves, as long as someone is doing it. At the same time I think that at the very least we stick by him until he really screws up. I mean, one more chance? Im not saying theres nothing to worry about after he gives up 2 runs in the ninth in the manner that he did, but again he didnt blow it (this has to stand for SOMETHING) and I think the sox can afford to give him another chance before they demote him or dump him or whatever. Besides its not like Marte hasnt blown 3 saves to kochs 1 already

mdep524
05-04-2004, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by FoulTerritory
The thing is, I think there is actually some history and evidence, other than Koch currently sucking, to back up the argument for an immediate demotion of Koch, as opposed to the "he got the save, its a win, let him be for now" argument.

The evidence is that last year there were several people complaining that a change needed to be made well into the first half of the season, and every time he squeaked out a save, JM and the rest of the Koch apologists, kept insisting on that as reason to keep throwing him out there. But guess what, it blew up in our faces, as he eventually your luck runs out, you start blowing those games, and the people who were insisting on his demotion in May turned out to be right. Of course, JM didn't ultimately demote him until the incredibly morale devastating 4th of July game in Tampa, and by that time, significant damage was done, and KW had not taken measures to procure some bullpen help by the trading deadline.

The point, don't wait until the bomb blows up to try to defuse it. Admit the problem, and try to fix the problem, BEFORE it comes back to haunt you. We must learn from our mistakes, especially ones as immediate as last year. If Koch actually looked better than last year, that would be a different case, but he's still throwing the same 93 mph heater, and he can't spot his pitches at all. Lets not let history repeat itself.

Thank you FT. :smile: I think we're on the same wavelength.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2004, 10:14 PM
Dirty:

Just food for thought...if the Central Division is going to be as close as many here are predicitng, can the Sox afford to keep giving 'one more chance,' to guys like Koch and Wright? (Maybe thrown in Rowand...)

A game or two may make all the difference in the world.

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-04-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
I agree this is a good little theoretical motto, but in reality if something can be improved you shouldn't just let it go because we won the game.

Koch is an embarrasment to anybody who can analyze and scruitinize pitching. *Any* halfway intelligent hitter will figure him out instantly, and it's embarrasing the Sox STILL haven't figured this out.

If the Sox really wanted to make a commitment to winning or statement to their fans, they would outright release Koch and pay him his $6.3 million salary. In most all other cases I would say this is a bad idea, and probably over-reaction, but this is the rare instance in which it would be beneficial. The fact is they have to pay his salary either way- it's a sunk cost. Thus, it should not even figure into the decision.

So why not show that his performance will not be tolerated? Fans would love it. I'd have a lot more respect for Reinsdorf/Williams et. al. if they did this.

This is how it works: be happy we won, hope it continues and hope management addresses the weaknesses.

Trades don't happen in May, they happen in June and July. If we're in it, we will get someone I guarantee it. If we're not in it, then no player could save us anyway.

mdep524
05-05-2004, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
This is how it works: be happy we won, hope it continues and hope management addresses the weaknesses.

Trades don't happen in May, they happen in June and July. If we're in it, we will get someone I guarantee it. If we're not in it, then no player could save us anyway.

Oh, I am happy this team is winning. And I agree with you, KW WILL make a deal if we're in the hunt- Freddie Garcia or Kris Benson or whatever. He'll do something. But I don't think its OK to say "trades don't happen in May." If a problem arises in May, a solution should be sought in May. And, despite winning and general happiness, Koch is a problem.

As Angelo said to Tony B in last week's Sopranos, "Somebody has to go." :cool:

batmanZoSo
05-05-2004, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by mdep524
I don't think its OK to say "trades don't happen in May." :

Yes it is, because it's true. I was stating a fact, not giving my opinion on what we should do. I wish we had traded for Garcia this winter and I would love to get him tomorrow. Much more than likely, though, we'll have to wait til late June or early July to get someone. Teams are still feeling themselves out. It's bad enough pub to give up mid summer; it's even worse to give up in May.

mdep524
05-05-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Yes it is, because it's true. I was stating a fact, not giving my opinion on what we should do. I wish we had traded for Garcia this winter and I would love to get him tomorrow. Much more than likely, though, we'll have to wait til late June or early July to get someone. Teams are still feeling themselves out. It's bad enough pub to give up mid summer; it's even worse to give up in May.

I hear ya Batman. You're right, the M's, Pirates, et. al. might not be ready to give up on the season yet and trade away their talent.

But that doesn't stop the Sox from dealing with Koch now.

gosox41
05-05-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
He had a bad outing yes, but as it has been stated we dont have a lot of options here. You have Rivera, Gagne, and Foulke, than everybody else. The other supposed premier closers have not been performing well, so at the worst we have the same situation as the rest of the League. If he can get the job done, even if he looks bad, then thats all we can ask for. I just hope that things keep coming up lucky for him when he isnt on so he can keep getting saves. I just dont see us having any other viable options right now inside the pen. ANd I dont know who we could pick up that would make me feel anymore comfortable.

The problem is the Sox and KW thought it was a good idea to trade a premier reliever for someone in the 'everybody else' category.



Bob

surfdudes
05-05-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dirty:

Just food for thought...if the Central Division is going to be as close as many here are predicitng, can the Sox afford to keep giving 'one more chance,' to guys like Koch and Wright? (Maybe thrown in Rowand...)

A game or two may make all the difference in the world.

Lip

This is scary, I'm siding with lip............. This guys is a closer, not a "give up 3 runs whew we got by" pitcher. He is paid to pitch 1 (one) inning of dominant ball. He is not even remotely close to doing that. This division will probably be too tight to be hoping this guy will get his stuff together. Blown 2, 3, and 4 run leads are the difference in winning and losing divisions.

tstrike2000
05-05-2004, 11:57 PM
Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz...Oh What A Relief It Is!! Remember that old Alka-Seltzer jingle? Well, that or anyone's stomach ailment medicine comes in handy everytime Krotch pitches. Ahh, I feel better, I just had my alka-seltzer...nice and lemmony. Ok, why do we keep using this guy again? Because we want to keep rolling the dice that we're going to give the game away? Heck, we may as well bring back Jamie Navarro to come close for us...or wait, Todd Ritchie!!

hawkeyesrule
05-07-2004, 12:38 PM
My two cents on Koch:

Most of the time I personally dislike a player who performs like he does. In his case, though, he has stood up like a man to take the verbal abuse. Can't fault him there. I definitely would rather he pitch the 7th or 8th when we are up by 5, but until Ozzie decides to go that route, he is what we have. He has the attitude I think we can all appreciate. Personally, I think I would go with Everyday Marte as the closer, but I am not in charge!