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Randar68
05-03-2004, 01:08 PM
Time to call yawl out. What do you think of Rowand now? He can't keep Timo Perez out of the lineup?

Yikes. How about that awesome defense? It's not even above average...

But hey, he just needed regular playing time, right????

Blueprint1
05-03-2004, 01:09 PM
Rowand played well yesterday what game were you watching???

Randar68
05-03-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
Rowand played well yesterday what game were you watching???

The previous 20?

Sheeesh. Good to see the FOC are as blind and ignorant as ever. I think Rowand is still on the wet CF grass flailing away trying to flop in front of those balls hit right at him...

MRKARNO
05-03-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
Rowand played well yesterday what game were you watching???

The White Sox game. His fielding is just plain awful. Stick Harris out in center until Reed is ready (which I hope is around June). Put Uribe at 2nd and Valentin at short. That's a pretty good defensive alignment and works well offensively. I'll take Harris's change it up offense over Rowand's suck it up offense.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The White Sox game. His fielding is just plain awful. Stick Harris out in center until Reed is ready (which I hope is around June). Put Uribe at 2nd and Valentin at short. That's a pretty good defensive alignment and works well offensively. I'll take Harris's change it up offense over Rowand's suck it up offense.

That has my vote as well. This team has plenty of K's and fly-outs without Rowand in the line-up... Also sad when a 2B is a better defensive OF'er than your CF'er...

Palehose13
05-03-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The White Sox game. His fielding is just plain awful. Stick Harris out in center until Reed is ready (which I hope is around June). Put Uribe at 2nd and Valentin at short. That's a pretty good defensive alignment and works well offensively. I'll take Harris's change it up offense over Rowand's suck it up offense.

I also like this idea. I would also like to see Timo get more AB's. I think we can be successful with a Valentin/Uribe platoon at SS, a Harris/Uribe platoon at 2B and a Harris/Perez platoon at CF...it'll keep Uribe, Harris, and Valentin in there while allowing Perez to get AB's to stay fresh.

CHISOXFAN13
05-03-2004, 01:24 PM
I think I'm probably one of the biggest Rowand fans on board. Hell, I even have an alternate black Rowand jersey.

That being said, he just isn't getting the job done. Save for the big hit yesterday, his offense has been below average and his defense the same. He isn't a CF. I think I take better angles to the ball in my softball games than he does.

I've definitely jumped on Randar's bandwagon on this topic.

SSN721
05-03-2004, 01:34 PM
I thought he would perform adequately myself this year. I am definitely dissapointed in heis performance so far. He has shown me at best average defense and his offense certainly come around. If he doesnt start really lighting it up offensively to make up for his occasional poor play in center then I will be ready to jump on Randars bandwagon. But just as we have said that you cant make definite decisions about other players so early in the year I will say the same for Rowand and give him a little more time before I am completely against him. I know I will be lambasted by all you ARow haters but I am still willing to give him more time.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
....

But hey, he just needed regular playing time, right????

Who here was our resident "all Aaron needs is regular playing time" apologist? I don't remember his name, but I'll never forget his posts.

:smile:

Mickster
05-03-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Who here was our resident "all Aaron needs is regular playing time" apologist? I don't remember his name, but I'll never forget his posts.

:smile:

SEALgep, want to answer this question??? :D:

Randar68
05-03-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by SSN721
I know I will be lambasted by all you ARow haters but I am still willing to give him more time.

I'm really not an Arow hater. However, I am a White Sox fan who wants to win more than anything else, and Rowand is one of the weak links on this team.

I wasn't sure if it was premature or not to call the FOC out, but really, what we have been seeing is the same thing I've seen for years now, dating back to the minor leagues. I just don't expect anything different than this in the long-run.

Reed, a converted 1B, and Harris, primarily a 2B, are better defensively in CF than a guy who's been an OF'er his whole life. That is disturbing.

As for PHG's question, that would be SealGEP, who's favorite line regarding anyone is, "He'll be fine."

Seal and several others were also of the opinion that Rowand was one of the better defensive CF'ers in the AL.


"But hey, what the Hell do I know?"

cheeses_h_rice
05-03-2004, 01:47 PM
You should check out Aaron's new book, "I Zigged When I Shoulda Zagged, and Other Tales of My Adventures In Center Field."

:)

SSN721
05-03-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm really not an Arow hater. However, I am a White Sox fan who wants to win more than anything else, and Rowand is one of the weak links on this team.

I wasn't sure if it was premature or not to call the FOC out, but really, what we have been seeing is the same thing I've seen for years now, dating back to the minor leagues. I just don't expect anything different than this in the long-run.

Reed, a converted 1B, and Harris, primarily a 2B, are better defensively in CF than a guy who's been an OF'er his whole life. That is disturbing.

As for PHG's question, that would be SealGEP, who's favorite line regarding anyone is, "He'll be fine."

Seal and several others were also of the opinion that Rowand was one of the better defensive CF'ers in the AL.


"But hey, what the Hell do I know?"

I want what is best for the team too. I didnt mean to be so harsh. I guess I just really wanted Rowand to do well and I thought with his hot streak at the end of the year last year I expected more offensively from him this year because I figured with the whole winter to workout and heal up completely and knowing that he definitely had the CF job, I thought he would show me what I thought he was capable of. But to this point I do agree with you, he hasnt shown me much to make me think he is worthy to keep the job. I will certainly admit to false hope in the guy if he continue to perform poorly for the next couple months. And it does bother me that he is showing the same signs of his past performance when he has had playing time. I just want another month or two before I am completely convinced. But if they pulled him tommorrow and put Harris or Timo in center I wouldnt cry about it either.

habibharu
05-03-2004, 02:07 PM
im so tired of rowand. ive been saying all along that rowand is a perfect 4th OF, A guy who can play once or twice a week. put harris in center, jose at short, uribe at 2b.

pudge
05-03-2004, 02:08 PM
This just seems to have become one of those love-hate rants on this board... Rowand typically gets off to a slow start offensively - how come Crede isn't getting the same treatment? As for Rowand's defense, my question is, where are the coaches teaching him how to take the correct angle on flyballs??? I can't believe Aaron wouldn't be trying to correct himself. Has this guy ever had 162 consecutive games to prove himself? I guess you can argue he doesn't deserve 162 games, but the point is, it's only been one month.

habibharu
05-03-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by pudge
This just seems to have become one of those love-hate rants on this board... Rowand typically gets off to a slow start offensively - how come Crede isn't getting the same treatment? As for Rowand's defense, my question is, where are the coaches teaching him how to take the correct angle on flyballs??? I can't believe Aaron wouldn't be trying to correct himself. Has this guy ever had 162 consecutive games to prove himself? I guess you can argue he doesn't deserve 162 games, but the point is, it's only been one month. because crede has won three games for us! and he plays a solid 3b

Randar68
05-03-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by pudge
This just seems to have become one of those love-hate rants on this board... Rowand typically gets off to a slow start offensively - how come Crede isn't getting the same treatment? As for Rowand's defense, my question is, where are the coaches teaching him how to take the correct angle on flyballs??? I can't believe Aaron wouldn't be trying to correct himself. Has this guy ever had 162 consecutive games to prove himself? I guess you can argue he doesn't deserve 162 games, but the point is, it's only been one month.

Hey pudge, he's been making those mistakes for 5+ years. *** do you want? The coaches to play for him?

It's been years of mediocrity broken-up by a few good streaks in limited playing time, giving a bunch of irrational people who have chosen to ignore history, a reason to think he's going to magically turn into a good player...

BTW, nobody is all over Crede because unlike Rowand, he has a long history of success in the minors and also plays gold glove quality defense.

34 Inch Stick
05-03-2004, 03:16 PM
By the way, neither Harris nor Perez are the long term, full time answer either. Our future center fielder is not on the team right now.

MRKARNO
05-03-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
By the way, neither Harris nor Perez are the long term, full time answer either. Our future center fielder is not on the team right now.

He's in charlotte.

maurice
05-03-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Stick Harris out in center until Reed is ready (which I hope is around June). Put Uribe at 2nd and Valentin at short. That's a pretty good defensive alignment and works well offensively.

Originally posted by Randar68
That has my vote as well. This team has plenty of K's and fly-outs without Rowand in the line-up.

That's a darn good argument for excluding Valentin as well. I'm in no hurry to see him back with the club, but (IMO) he'll likely displace Harris in the lineup (for the most part) with Uribe moving to 2B and Perez/Rowand in CF until Reed gets called up. Harris will get some ABs when Uribe plays SS or 3B.

IMHO, in the best case scenario, Valentin gets traded, Uribe enjoys a breakout season at SS, Harris keeps his OBP over .320 at 2B, and Reed starts his successful career as a regular Sox OF within the next 30 days.

soxruleEP
05-03-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by pudge
This just seems to have become one of those love-hate rants on this board... Rowand typically gets off to a slow start offensively - how come Crede isn't getting the same treatment? As for Rowand's defense, my question is, where are the coaches teaching him how to take the correct angle on flyballs??? I can't believe Aaron wouldn't be trying to correct himself. Has this guy ever had 162 consecutive games to prove himself? I guess you can argue he doesn't deserve 162 games, but the point is, it's only been one month.

Because Crede has come up with a number of MASSIVE clutch hits/sac flies and doesn't blow on defense.

It's time for Rowand to tell his story walking.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by maurice
That's a darn good argument for excluding Valentin as well. I'm in no hurry to see him back with the club, but (IMO) he'll likely displace Harris in the lineup (for the most part) with Uribe moving to 2B and Perez/Rowand in CF until Reed gets called up. Harris will get some ABs when Uribe plays SS or 3B.

IMHO, in the best case scenario, Valentin gets traded, Uribe enjoys a breakout season at SS, Harris keeps his OBP over .320 at 2B, and Reed starts his successful career as a regular Sox OF within the next 30 days.

I really don't think it's ultra urgent that Reed get's called-up, and really would prefer he get half a season at Charlotte to fully adjust and settle-in.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I really don't think it's ultra urgent that Reed get's called-up, and really would prefer he get half a season at Charlotte to fully adjust and settle-in.

Not only that, but if we wait a few months, we can delay his FA/Arbitration by a year.

I hope Reed hits as well at the mlb level as he has everywhere else, but at the same time I wouldn't mind seeing him in the minors for a bit longer. I can live with Crash/Timo/Harris platooning.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I can live with Crash/Timo/Harris platooning.

Well, I can live with it only under the notion that all these people stop whining about him not being given a shot or thinking he's the long-term solution that he clearly is not.

I'd prefer to see what Reed is doing after 60-75 minor league games. That would mean a late-June call-up if he's still performing. He's shown decreased BB and higher K numbers for a brief period each time he has moved up before adjusting. I'd like to see that acclimation and adjustment happen before bringing him into the line-up in Chicago.

The Sox aren't going to bring him up to platoon, so I'd prefer that everyone is more comfortable when he is given the full-time job.

Blueprint1
05-03-2004, 04:24 PM
Yeah Perez and Harris suck also. Ill take Rowand over them any day of the week. By the way Perez had a chance to be a starter in the past also.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
Yeah Perez and Harris suck also. Ill take Rowand over them any day of the week. By the way Perez had a chance to be a starter in the past also.

LOL. Well, none of them can hit, and 2 of them play good defense, and Rowand ain't one of the 2.

MRKARNO
05-03-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Well, I can live with it only under the notion that all these people stop whining about him not being given a shot or thinking he's the long-term solution that he clearly is not.

I'd prefer to see what Reed is doing after 60-75 minor league games. That would mean a late-June call-up if he's still performing. He's shown decreased BB and higher K numbers for a brief period each time he has moved up before adjusting. I'd like to see that acclimation and adjustment happen before bringing him into the line-up in Chicago.

The Sox aren't going to bring him up to platoon, so I'd prefer that everyone is more comfortable when he is given the full-time job.

It would also make sense to bring him up around this time because we are going into a tough stretch against the Cubs, Minnesota, Atlanta, Philly and Florida and he will be ready to contribute at a high level at that point in time.

pudge
05-03-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Hey pudge, he's been making those mistakes for 5+ years. *** do you want? The coaches to play for him?



Well I guess I'd like to know what is going on behind closed doors, because if he's been ****ing up for 5+ years, and coaches have been trying to teach him the proper mechanics, then why the heck is he currently a starting CF on a major league team? Did he spend most of his previous years at corner spots?

FarWestChicago
05-03-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
It's been years of mediocrity broken-up by a few good streaks in limited playing time, giving a bunch of irrational people who have chosen to ignore history, a reason to think he's going to magically turn into a good player...Hopefully the FOC's, one of the silliest things to ever hit this site, will quietly disband and disappear. As bad as the FOB's were, their guy could at least catch a ball hit exactly right at him.

:buddylee

You got that right!! I have mad skills!!

joecrede
05-03-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL. Well, none of them can hit, and 2 of them play good defense, and Rowand ain't one of the 2.

I agree with you more often than not Randar, but there's simply no evidence that points to Rowand being a poor defensive CF'er.

ma_deuce
05-03-2004, 04:58 PM
Though I honestly believe that a mustache is an important element of baseball, I'm not a big fan of Valentin. Uribe is hot as can be and deserves a spot. To me, benching Harris for Uribe or Valentin for Uribe is just fine.

As far as CF goes, its Crash's job to lose. Time will tell.

Deuce

Randar68
05-03-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I agree with you more often than not Randar, but there's simply no evidence that points to Rowand being a poor defensive CF'er.

Are you in an area where you can't see the games???

I think he's still circling the wagons lost in CF somewhere in Chicago...

Randar68
05-03-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Well I guess I'd like to know what is going on behind closed doors, because if he's been ****ing up for 5+ years, and coaches have been trying to teach him the proper mechanics, then why the heck is he currently a starting CF on a major league team? Did he spend most of his previous years at corner spots?

Seriously, what other options do we have at this point? The organization hasn't gone out and filled the hole left by Lance Johnson as a lead-off/CF'er. Singleton was decent, and his defense was EXCELLENT, but now they have a poor LF'er patrolling CF.

It's not his fault he's been thrust into the CF job, but he was a very mediocre LF'er in the minors, and at times, scouts wondered if he'd even be adequate enough defensively (or offensively) to be an every-day LF'er, let alone CF'er...

OEO Magglio
05-03-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Are you in an area where you can't see the games???

I think he's still circling the wagons lost in CF somewhere in Chicago...
I've always been a huge fan of Aaron, but his defense hasn't been good at all, and as of right now I would also stick willie out in center when Jose comes back, and move juan to 2b.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I agree with you more often than not Randar, but there's simply no evidence that points to Rowand being a poor defensive CF'er.

except that he does not get to balls that most normal CFs would, and he makes balls that most other CFs get routinely look like amazing plays. Plays that other CFs might make amazing plays on - Rowand plays as doubles off the wall since he has no chance of getting to them.

Rowand is - and always was - a bad CF. At the start of the season, I was willing to give him a few months - without interruption to have a chance. Having seen his April, I would even give him another month. But unless something changes (and I have seen no reason to believe it will) I would have no problem going to Harris/Timo/Reed or some other option.

bafiarocks03
05-03-2004, 05:29 PM
that day he made all those mistakes in center, he was having a bad day! thats all!!! leave him alone!! lol

Randar68
05-03-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by bafiarocks03
that day he made all those mistakes in center, he was having a bad day! thats all!!! leave him alone!! lol

That Day??? He must be having a bad month, if not 5-year run, then.

Sheesh.

FarWestChicago
05-03-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by bafiarocks03
that day he made all those mistakes in center, he was having a bad day! thats all!!! leave him alone!! lol Is this some sci fi movie where Crash is experiencing one day in his mind and to those of us on the outside it's several years?

compy75
05-03-2004, 05:44 PM
What bothers me about Aaron is that I read and bought Lindy's Scouting Guide for this year, and the book on Aaron is that he can't hit the breaking ball. So one would expect that he would work on it and learn to sit on the pitch. Ye this hands are always out in front and he puts generally bad swings on even hangers. For those without substantial baseball experience should know that when you try to turn it loose and pop on an inside pitch it exposes you to middle and outside pitches. Rowand does this, drops his hands, and that's why we see him hit about 1000 groundballs to shortshop. Watch tonight (if we play and if he is in the lineup) and you'll quickly notice how he "mi****s" the breaking balls. For the record, he puts on one of the most impressive BPs sessions I have ever seen which is why he is in the pros. He destroys the fastballs, as evidenced by yesterday's double.

pearso66
05-03-2004, 05:45 PM
I have to agree, Rowand is playing aweful in CF. Harris if i remember correctly, never played CF until last year, and he was light years ahead of what Rowand can do. For a guy who has been playing OF his whole life, and to still not know how to take routes to the ball, he never will learn. For those that want Kip back, maybe we can package Aaron and Wright for him, I think taht's all I'd be willing to give up. I can handle him not batting well if he was playing decent in the field, or even at times, vice versa, but he is doing neither well. I think his time in CF is over.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Is this some sci fi movie where Crash is experiencing one day in his mind and to those of us on the outside it's several years?

LOL! The Friends of Crash are in full swing now!!!! :smile:

We'll never hear the end of it until the Bears reach summer camp and all the delusional types check out on the baseball season.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Is this some sci fi movie where Crash is experiencing one day in his mind and to those of us on the outside it's several years?

LOL! Like I said, FWC, it's good to have that dry wit back again.

MRKARNO
05-03-2004, 05:53 PM
I know that the stats often say that he is a good fielder (especially Range Factor, according to which he's an amazing CFer), but if you actually watch him he's just plain awful. If there's any difficulty level to the catch, he cant get it done.

Timo is such an upgrade over Rowand. Remember the diving catch off Arod's bat to save the potential tying run? That changed the whole complexion of the game.

Maggs on the contrary has been very impressive so far this year in right field. Kudos to him.

pudge
05-03-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Seriously, what other options do we have at this point? The organization hasn't gone out and filled the hole left by Lance Johnson as a lead-off/CF'er. Singleton was decent, and his defense was EXCELLENT, but now they have a poor LF'er patrolling CF.

It's not his fault he's been thrust into the CF job, but he was a very mediocre LF'er in the minors, and at times, scouts wondered if he'd even be adequate enough defensively (or offensively) to be an every-day LF'er, let alone CF'er...

Well considering this is the team that felt fine about putting Carl Everett in CF, I can only presume they don't put a high priority on having a defensive CF'er... I mean, Singleton was available in the off-season...

Win1ForMe
05-03-2004, 06:00 PM
Let's get Beltran for the stretch run!

But seriously, can Reed play CF or is he more suited for the corner spots?

Randar68
05-03-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Well considering this is the team that felt fine about putting Carl Everett in CF, I can only presume they don't put a high priority on having a defensive CF'er... I mean, Singleton was available in the off-season...

The difference is, Carl Everett is a freaking All-Star offensively. Rowand isn't league average. You make the exchange and sacrifice defense for offense when the player is worth that trade. With Rowand, you're essentially sacrificing BOTH offense AND defense.

Randar68
05-03-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Let's get Beltran for the stretch run!

But seriously, can Reed play CF or is he more suited for the corner spots?

Yes, and Yes, but he's a significant defensive upgrade from Rowand. Reed is probably a long-term LF'er if Brian Anderson or Chris Young makes it to the show in a few years.

Paulwny
05-03-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by compy75
What bothers me about Aaron is that I read and bought Lindy's Scouting Guide for this year, and the book on Aaron is that he can't hit the breaking ball. So one would expect that he would work on it and learn to sit on the pitch. Ye this hands are always out in front and he puts generally bad swings on even hangers. For those without substantial baseball experience should know that when you try to turn it loose and pop on an inside pitch it exposes you to middle and outside pitches. Rowand does this, drops his hands, and that's why we see him hit about 1000 groundballs to shortshop. Watch tonight (if we play and if he is in the lineup) and you'll quickly notice how he "mi****s" the breaking balls. For the record, he puts on one of the most impressive BPs sessions I have ever seen which is why he is in the pros. He destroys the fastballs, as evidenced by yesterday's double.

Very good analysis, this is exactly why he has 2 hrs but only 4 rbi's. With no one on base the pitcher tosses over a get me over fast ball , which Rowand can hit, but with men on base the pitchers bear down and he sees a variety of pitches and is lost.

OurBitchinMinny
05-03-2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I also like this idea. I would also like to see Timo get more AB's. I think we can be successful with a Valentin/Uribe platoon at SS, a Harris/Uribe platoon at 2B and a Harris/Perez platoon at CF...it'll keep Uribe, Harris, and Valentin in there while allowing Perez to get AB's to stay fresh.

The other platoons might work. But Uribe has to be in the lineup nearly everyday. I dont know whether that means SS or 2B with a little 3B mixed in.

Daver
05-03-2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



"But hey, what the Hell do I know?"

Ummm,Randar,I have that phrase copyrighted,you'll be hearing from my lawyers..........















:)

Soxfest
05-03-2004, 07:53 PM
Agree 100%

Randar68
05-03-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Ummm,Randar,I have that phrase copyrighted,you'll be hearing from my lawyers..........


:)

But... But... i used quotation marks...

*Twang... *THUMP!

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT.

i'll have to stick tot the good old reliable...







BLA!

A. Cavatica
05-03-2004, 09:34 PM
I expected him to hit a lot better than he's been doing, particularly against lefthanders. Even now, he's a better hitter than Perez or Harris. I expect him to get hot and bring his numbers up over his next 100 at-bats.

I have always thought his defense is adequate, because he makes up for a lot of mistakes with hustle. He's had a very rough month.

I don't think Harris is any part of the solution in center, and Perez is not a full-timer either. I would still platoon Rowand with Perez, for the rest of May. If he hasn't improved in both areas by then I would give the job to Reed with no qualms whatsoever.

WSox8404
05-04-2004, 01:08 AM
I expected huge things out of Rowand this year. I heard so many stories of how he was doing nothing but preparing for the season in the SW. Maybe he should have spent some more time hitting some curves or sliders. So what if he put 15 lbs. of muscle on? That doesn't do much when you constantly whiff on curves and can't track anything harder than a routine fly ball down.

batmanZoSo
05-04-2004, 01:21 AM
Give Rowand a g-- d--- break.

Since when is he a center fielder anyway?! He's a freakin left fielder and always was. That considered, I think he's doing a fine job playing center on this mis-staffed team. He will start hitting in time and we could have a worse 4th outfielder/platoon guy. No, he's not very good in center, but get off his case already. This is no different than if we bashed Valentin for his center play in 2001.

FarWestChicago
05-04-2004, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Give Rowand a g-- d--- break.

Since when is he a center fielder anyway?! He's a freakin left fielder and always was. That considered, I think he's doing a fine job playing center on this mis-staffed team. He will start hitting in time and we could have a worse 4th outfielder/platoon guy. No, he's not very good in center, but get off his case already. This is no different than if we bashed Valentin for his center play in 2001. Aren't left fielders supposed to primarily hitters? He doesn't have the stick for left.

batmanZoSo
05-04-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Aren't left fielders supposed to primarily hitters? He doesn't have the stick for left.

Well, um, he's not an every day player. I don't think anyone thought he'd hit 30 homers. He's good enough to be a solid platoon guy in left and right. Those spots however are covered on this team, so he really has no business being here. Who's fault is that? His? My point exactly. So everyone needs to cut him some slack.

Randar68
05-04-2004, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Well, um, he's not an every day player. I don't think anyone thought he'd hit 30 homers. He's good enough to be a solid platoon guy in left and right. Those spots however are covered on this team, so he really has no business being here. Who's fault is that? His? My point exactly. So everyone needs to cut him some slack.

Our issues aren't with Rowand per se, they're with all the irrational people who took 100 AB's here or there and use them to try to refute 2000 minor league AB's as irrelevant history and profess that Rowand will be both solid defensively and a good hitter.

He's mediocre at best in both aspects. Again, he tries his hardest, but he's just a AAAA player plain and simple. my point of contention is with those who have ignored that all along in blind faith.

FarWestChicago
05-05-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's mediocre at best in both aspects. Again, he tries his hardest, but he's just a AAAA player plain and simple. my point of contention is with those who have ignored that all along in blind faith. Exactly, Crash tries his hardest. He's got a great attitude. The FOC's just mistook attitude for ability.

SoxxoS
05-05-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's mediocre at best in both aspects. Again, he tries his hardest, but he's just a AAAA player plain and simple. my point of contention is with those who have ignored that all along in blind faith.

You think there is a difference between AAAA and major league reserve?

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
You think there is a difference between AAAA and major league reserve?

marginally, yes, but the fact is, Rowand was handed that CF starating job, he's beinig used as a reserve, which is where he belongs.

in addition, he's got a high-effort swing and sitting on the bench and getting one start a week isn't likely a thing he could succeed at ...

bc2k
05-05-2004, 12:25 AM
I find it humorous that most who rip on ARow, blindly praise Crede. Crede has been touted as having great defense, I think he even won a Gold Glove award in the minors. But really, Crede's defense is poor. He can't barehand a slowly hit ball, has more trouble than he should on in between hops, takes forever and a day to throw the ball once he's fielded it, doesn't tag out baserunners running right at him (even though he fielded the ball), throws errantly WAY too often, and does not make up for his poor defense with his bat.

Crede is hitting .234 6, 14 with an ops of .711. 5 walks, 21 k's, and .275 obp.

Rowand, the superior defender, is hitting .227 2, 5 with an ops of .712. 6 walks with 13 k's, and a 292 .obp.

If the board is going to participate in groupthink, at least be consistent. These two players are comparable; one is not vastly better or worse than the other.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I find it humorous that most who rip on ARow, blindly praise Crede. Crede has been touted as having great defense, I think he even won a Gold Glove award in the minors. But really, Crede's defense is poor. He can't barehand a slowly hit ball, has more trouble than he should on in between hops, takes forever and a day to throw the ball once he's fielded it, doesn't tag out baserunners running right at him (even though he fielded the ball), throws errantly WAY too often, and does not make up for his poor defense with his bat.

Crede is hitting .234 6, 14 with an ops of .711. 5 walks, 21 k's, and .275 obp.

Rowand, the superior defender, is hitting .227 2, 5 with an ops of .712. 6 walks with 13 k's, and a 292 .obp.

If the board is going to participate in groupthink, at least be consistent. These two players are comparable; one is not vastly better or worse than the other.

The difference is that Crede has a long history of success and your defensive criticism is way off. In addition, Crede's hits have been clutch.


Anybody who says "Rowand" and "superior defense" in the same sentence is either literally blind, or has no clue how to scout defensive ability. Stats tell none of the story in terms of defense, particularly in OF vs. IF. I know you didn't use them, but it's inevitable someone mention's Rowand's error count.

Crede's errant throws? I can't remember a play other than a bare-hand attempt that he's thrown away in the last year+...

But hey, Rowand take great routes and is a superior defender... Clearly you and I are watching 2 entirely different games/teams...

bc2k
05-05-2004, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
The difference is that Crede has a long history of success and your defensive criticism is way off. In addition, Crede's hits have been clutch.


Anybody who says "Rowand" and "superior defense" in the same sentence is either literally blind, or has no clue how to scout defensive ability. Stats tell none of the story in terms of defense, particularly in OF vs. IF. I know you didn't use them, but it's inevitable someone mention's Rowand's error count.

Crede's errant throws? I can't remember a play other than a bare-hand attempt that he's thrown away in the last year+...

But hey, Rowand take great routes and is a superior defender... Clearly you and I are watching 2 entirely different games/teams...

How bout that Crede throw tonight where he almost lost his balance (took time to reset) and pulled Konerko off the bag, allowing the baserunner to be safe. How can you not hit your 1Bman when you're closer to the pitchers' mound than your are to third base?

You're right about the errors, I don't allow them to cloud my opinion of players' defense. Crede's low error total is deceiving.

Randar68, for a guy who follows Rowand's defense so acutely, I would assume you'd be all over the defensive liablity Crede too.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
How bout that Crede throw tonight where he almost lost his balance (took time to reset) and pulled Konerko off the bag, allowing the baserunner to be safe. How can you not hit your 1Bman when you're closer to the pitchers' mound than your are to third base?

You're right about the errors, I don't allow them to cloud my opinion of players' defense. Crede's low error total is deceiving.

Randar68, for a guy who follows Rowand's defense so acutely, I would assume you'd be all over the defensive liablity Crede too.

Sorry, but playing 3B and barehanding balls and making accurate throws on the move or fielding the ball like a fly-trap are things much moroe difficult that measurinig a fly-ball, a ball hit right at you, or settinig your feet for a throw for a guy who's been an OF'er for the better part of 10 years.

Crede may not be Brooks Robinson, but again, I reiterate, anyone who claims Rowand's defense is anything better than passable (IMO it is NOT) has absolutely no credibility to criticize anyone's defense.

SoxxoS
05-05-2004, 12:55 AM
I think we may be able to get Gibbons for Rowand if Baltimore's announcers are involved.

They said Rowand had a "great arm" and he is "very fast." I don't know if they were talking about Aaron Rowand...or...

His arm and speed are decent.

lowesox
05-05-2004, 01:06 AM
WOw. I can't believe the legs of this thread - there's a lot of Rowand haters out there. The thing is, I've never really been that involved with the argument. I've always thought that Rowand isn't the ideal CF choice, but he's not the worse either. So far he's played a little worse than I would have expected, but it is still early.

I thought, however, it would be a good idea to remind all of you who have decided to use this thread as an "I told you so thread" that around this time last year a lot of people at WSI were calling for Rowands head so that Borchard (instead of Reed, like this year) could replace him. Borchard did, and he wasn't very good. And when Rowand got the spot back, he played pretty well.

All I'm saying is, be careful saying I told you so. Especially at the beginning of a season.

Oh. And one more thing: does anybody else here find it odd that so many White Sox fans are delighted to see a White Sox player fail? The same thing happened with Danny WRight. There are a lot of White SOx I like less than others. There are a lot of White Sox I'm hard on. But, I'd never want a player on my team to fail.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Oh. And one more thing: does anybody else here find it odd that so many White Sox fans are delighted to see a White Sox player fail? The same thing happened with Danny WRight. There are a lot of White SOx I like less than others. There are a lot of White Sox I'm hard on. But, I'd never want a player on my team to fail.

Once again, you fail to see the point. Nobody WANTED to see him fail. I would have LOVED to have seen him win a Gold Glove at hit .300-35-90, which isn't far off from the kind of praise some had given him

Unfortunately for the Sox and Rowand, he's a AAAA player. That's all there is to it. That's all my point was for the past year and a half. I wish him nothing but the best, but the Sox need to find a better option. He's failed to even meet my expectations, which were very low to begin with.

I'm not "Happy" in the least. It's too bad for Rowand to be made the starting CF'er, because he is clearly not a good enough player to be such on a contending team. I just wish this team had been more proactive over the past 2-3 years in filling that role more adequately. In addition, on a team with no lead-off hitter, it may have been possible to kill 2 birds with one stone.

I want this team to win, regardless of who is performing well or getting the job done. However, I'm going to point out who is failing to get the job done or who is not in a position to succeed or good enough to succeed when that context is brought up.

You can like it or not, I could give a rat's ass. I've been here a long time, and when it comes to player evaluations, I've been right a lot more than I've been wrong. I use both statistical and scouting metrics to prove my points, but some Pollyanna's wouldn't see the truth if it punched them in the nose.

lowesox, it's clear you have major problems with Kenny, they are personal for you, and you can clearly never make a point about him without putting those aside.

I never intended it to be personal or attacking Rowand's character, and I'm sorry if it's come off that way. Unfortunately, the "He'll be fine" or "He's excellent defensively" garbage that's been thrown around since last September has lead me to have to really go over-board in trying to make my points.

Again, I've said these things in so many words several times both in this thread and others. "Haters" is a strong word. "Detractors" is a much better word, but then again, I don't expect people who can't see the blatantly obvious flaws of one Aaron Rowand to be versed enough to be able to come up with something less generic or over-the-top than "haters".

jeremyb1
05-05-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Our issues aren't with Rowand per se, they're with all the irrational people who took 100 AB's here or there and use them to try to refute 2000 minor league AB's as irrelevant history and profess that Rowand will be both solid defensively and a good hitter.

Hahaha. Well what are you relying on right now? Rowand has 500 major league at bats not 100 and you're trying to shove it in everyone's face how right you were based on 70 at bats! If you can conclusively argue that Rowand is a .240 hitter then that means Uribe is a .380 hitter. Give it a month and then we'll talk.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hahaha. Well what are you relying on right now? Rowand has 500 major league at bats not 100 and you're trying to shove it in everyone's face how right you were based on 70 at bats! If you can conclusively argue that Rowand is a .240 hitter then that means Uribe is a .380 hitter. Give it a month and then we'll talk.

How about over 1700+ minor league AB's, jeremy. Funny, for a stat-head, you sure can pick your spots in which ones you chose to ignore. Never mind the obvious defensive issues he has. Last night's "DIVING" spectacular play looked that way because he took ANOTHER circuitous route the ball, going diagonally before having to charge in on it.


classic.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hahaha. Well what are you relying on right now? Rowand has 500 major league at bats not 100 and you're trying to shove it in everyone's face how right you were based on 70 at bats! If you can conclusively argue that Rowand is a .240 hitter then that means Uribe is a .380 hitter. Give it a month and then we'll talk.

I never said that jeremy, not in the least. Again, are you trying to put words in my mouth? No, I thought Rowand was closer to a .260-.280(TOPS) hitter with little OBP skills. 1700+ minor league AB's and 500 spotty major league AB's. My comments about 100 AB's here and there were directed towards the idiots around here that selective took 100 AB's at a time where he had something like a .315 average, and tried to insinuate that was how he'd perform, ignoring history.


Again, jeremy, try having a point in mind before connecting your fingers to the keyboard.

jeremyb1
05-05-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
How about over 1700+ minor league AB's, jeremy. Funny, for a stat-head, you sure can pick your spots in which ones you chose to ignore. Never mind the obvious defensive issues he has. Last night's "DIVING" spectacular play looked that way because he took ANOTHER circuitous route the ball, going diagonally before having to charge in on it.


classic.

His minor league stats are not as poor as you make them seem. Birmingham, a pitchers park, is the only stop at which he hit lower than .279 and .258 isn't all that poor. He's not a great hitter, I've never made him out to be one. CF is an extremely weak position at the major league level so he doesn't have to hit all that well to be acceptable there. As far as defense, I haven't seen all the plays you're refering to so I'll refrain from comment on this season. However, he's been strong defensively in the past and peoples eyes are certainly capable of deceiving them on these evaluations. Its somewhat difficult to perceive range.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Crede may not be Brooks Robinson, but again, I reiterate, anyone who claims Rowand's defense is anything better than passable (IMO it is NOT) has absolutely no credibility to criticize anyone's defense.

Randar, for someone who has offered only subjective evidence of Rowand's defensive abillities you are far too confident in your opinion.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
His minor league stats are not as poor as you make them seem. Birmingham, a pitchers park, is the only stop at which he hit lower than .279 and .258 isn't all that poor. He's not a great hitter, I've never made him out to be one. CF is an extremely weak position at the major league level so he doesn't have to hit all that well to be acceptable there. As far as defense, I haven't seen all the plays you're refering to so I'll refrain from comment on this season. However, he's been strong defensively in the past and peoples eyes are certainly capable of deceiving them on these evaluations. Its somewhat difficult to perceive range.

He was a D1 college player and a career minor league hitter in the .280 range! His career 648 MLB AB's, he's hitting .269 with a .322 OBP and a .740 OPS. That really is about where I would expect his performance to be.

Unfortunately, he makes every ball in the OF an adventure.

I hope I don't need to go down the list again of his defensive faults and short-comings. Very few people would acknowledge these faults for the 6-month offseason or last year. These are mistakes he's been making his entire minor league career. Now, slowly, more and more people are recognizing these things. I'm not rubbing it in people's faces per se, but I do enjoy seeing people learn to recognize some of these things, even if it took me 500 posts on the subject in order to point the finer aspects of it out to people. I remember talking to a scout as we watched him in a game in Birmingham, and he wasn't sure Rowand would be a passable LF'er in the majors. Now clearly, he would be passable in LF, but the fact that Carlos Lee, Jeremy Reed, and Willie Harris, all converted IF'ers have better instincts in the field than Rowand is something of a concern, at least to me it is.

The better informed and more objective people are around here, the more they'll learn about the game of baseball. Everyone has things to learn about the game, statistically or in the way players are evaluated or the finer points of strategy. All very valid topics. However, when such fundamental defensive mistakes are made by a guy who's been a career OF'er and flaws that were glossed over by some, it should be a matter of concern for everyone.

How long before Rowand misjudges a ball hit short in front of him and it get's by him for an inside-the-park HR? He's already flirted with that happening a half dozen times this year, and we're not even 20% into the season!

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Randar, for someone who has offered only subjective evidence of Rowand's defensive abillities you are far too confident in your opinion.

That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you think I'm going to change. Prove me wrong and I'll gladly admit it.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
How long before Rowand misjudges a ball hit short in front of him and it get's by him for an inside-the-park HR? He's already flirted with that happening a half dozen times this year, and we're not even 20% into the season!

Can you list these half dozen times?

Randar68
05-05-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Can you list these half dozen times?

What, you want me to list the actual games and innings these incidents occurred? Sorry, my memory isn't that good. However, that doesn't make my point any less valid. Watch the games, and next time you see him freak out caught in La-La land between charging a ball he can't get to and taking it on a hop, just think of me.

He's recently had two balls squirt past him (got enough of the ball to keep it from getting too far past him) that he got caught between on, and several others earlier in the year that he managed to block with his body.

Mickster
05-05-2004, 01:03 PM
I was a part of the "he'll be fine" group earlier this year. While I am convinced his bat will eventually come around to the point where he's batting .270-.280 with some pop, I'm less convinced his defense will come around. I've seen 7 games at home (2 of which were from the Stadium Club in RF) and became less and less impressed with his defensive skills. In those 2 games while watching from the Stadium Club (which offers a very different perspective from my season tix on 3b line, btw) he looked downright horrible. IMHO.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What, you want me to list the actual games and innings these incidents occurred? Sorry, my memory isn't that good. However, that doesn't make my point any less valid.

If you can't prove your point how is it not any less valid?

Your assertion that six times he's almost let a ball skip past him allowing an inside the park homer is ludicrous. One time a ball got past him allowing for a one base advancement to second by the hitter.

jeremyb1
05-05-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He was a D1 college player and a career minor league hitter in the .280 range! His career 648 MLB AB's, he's hitting .269 with a .322 OBP and a .740 OPS. That really is about where I would expect his performance to be.

Unfortunately, he makes every ball in the OF an adventure.

I hope I don't need to go down the list again of his defensive faults and short-comings.

Well a .740 OPS for a centerfielder is pretty good. It's better than Darin Erstad puts up. Are you saying your concern is entirely based on defense?

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
If you can't prove your point how is it not any less valid?

Your assertion that six times he's almost let a ball skip past him allowing an inside the park homer is ludicrous. One time a ball got past him allowing for a one base advancement to second by the hitter.

What you asked for is unreasonable, and you know it. It certainly doesn't prove your point that I can't sit here and name the dates and times of these occurances. There's been 25+ games, and you are expecting me to remember each time Rowand misplays a ball?

*****, dude. Yeah, watch one game, at he'll misplay at least one ball in it. They all blend together at this point...

Sheeeesh.

:whoflungpoo

jabrch
05-05-2004, 01:16 PM
I was willing to give Rowand one last chance this season - seeing how we had no other options, I prepared for it. But now that we have a legitimate option (Harris), I dont think Rowand is worthy of any more time as THE STARTER. Sure he should get a game or two a week. Lets rest Jose vs Lefties. We can give Willie a day off from time to time. Same for Uribe. Even Magglio and Carlos need a day off every now and then. Rowand may still get 2 starts a week. But I don't want him there full time anymore. His offensive approach is inadequate. His defense has been poor since he first got up to the bigs - and it hasn't improved.

I gave him a full month without hardly being crticial. He doesn't deserve a free pass anymore.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well a .740 OPS for a centerfielder is pretty good. It's better than Darin Erstad puts up. Are you saying your concern is entirely based on defense?

Mostly on defense. However, I also am concerned with how his style of play, (warning-track power, low OBP, high K's) fits in with the current build of the team. This team already has a ton of guys who have high-K low OBP skills, and frankly, Rowand's "power" isn't needed or worth the trade-offs in defense or OBP.

Most teams have a CF'er who is a lead-off or #2-type hitter (outside of the Beltran-types who are rare) OPS is a SLG-heavy stat, and OBP, particularly out of your CF'er, is generally a more desireable stat to go by IMO.

SoxxoS
05-05-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Most teams have a CF'er who is a lead-off or #2-type hitter (outside of the Beltran-types who are rare) OPS is a SLG-heavy stat, and OBP, particularly out of your CF'er, is generally a more desireable stat to go by IMO.

I heard we have a guy that fills that to a "T" in that CF in Charlotte. And I think he is left handed...

joecrede
05-05-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What you asked for is unreasonable, and you know it. It certainly doesn't prove your point that I can't sit here and name the dates and times of these occurances.

Okay, so you're unwilling to offer proof to validate your assertion that Rowand's defensive inefficiencies has almost led to six inside the park homers by the opposition. I can live with that.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I heard we have a guy that fills that to a "T" in that CF in Charlotte. And I think he is left handed...

Yep, and even though Rowand's career .740 OPS is about what I expected out of him, IMO, if Reed posted a similar OPS in his first season, I'd be estatic, because that would mean he'd have around a .350-.360 OBP and around a .300 average. I think it might be a couple years before Reed shows what I think can become 20-HR power, but I'd be very happy with anyone getting on at a .360 clip... this team needs more of those types badly, and it definitely fits in with Ozzie's desired style better.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Okay, so you're unwilling to offer proof to validate your assertion that Rowand's defensive inefficiencies has almost led to six inside the park homers by the opposition. I can live with that.

Ahhh, yes, 2 posts in a row putting words in my mouth. Thanks again...

Short of me sending you the video clips of those plays, you won't be happy. What you asked for is completely unreasonable and frankly irrelevant to the discussion. You clearly have no basis to argue this other than attacking a point I made by saying "Well, you can't give me the dates and times of the 6 incidents, then you have no merit"

Sorry, but even the worst lawyer would laugh you out of the room.

:gulp:

joecrede
05-05-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ahhh, yes, 2 posts in a row putting words in my mouth. Thanks again...

Short of me sending you the video clips of those plays, you won't be happy. What you asked for is completely unreasonable and frankly irrelevant to the discussion. You clearly have no basis to argue this other than attacking a point I made by saying "Well, you can't give me the dates and times of the 6 incidents, then you have no merit"

Sorry, but even the worst lawyer would laugh you out of the room.

:gulp:

The reason why you believe the request is unreasonable is because there is no proof to back up your assertion.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The reason why you believe the request is unreasonable is because there is no proof to back up your assertion.

:?:


LOL. Yeah, that's it. Not that I would have expected different, but the Rowand-backers, in general, have been unreasonable and irrational for the past 8 months, why should it change now?

At least some Rowand backers have the cajones to admit to his faults now that they are plainly obvious. Grow a pair, pal.

Once again, circular logic at its finest.

RichFitztightly
05-05-2004, 01:48 PM
I was willing to give Rowand a chance, but I agree, he's no long term answer at center. The Sox need somebody better. I would rather not use Harris out there. I don't think the situation is that dire. I say let him get comfortable at a position he's used to playing. That's gotta be the most beneficial arrangement for this team.

Randar, I gotta give you props. Most of the time, message boards are places people will take a small sample of evidence and extrapolate that into a big picture. It's almost unnatural that somebody would actually do research and be pretty accurate.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
:?:


LOL. Yeah, that's it. Not that I would have expected different, but the Rowand-backers, in general, have been unreasonable and irrational for the past 8 months, why should it change now?

At least some Rowand backers have the cajones to admit to his faults now that they are plainly obvious. Grow a pair, pal.

Once again, circular logic at its finest.

You're resorting to hyperbole, but you can still put this to rest by proving your assertion. Six inside-the-park homers . . .

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:52 PM
joecrede, this is rediculous, stay tuned for a recap of my actual quote for comparison to how you've distorted it.

asinine.

wdelaney72
05-05-2004, 01:52 PM
I wouldn't put myself in the "Fans Of Crash" club, but I did think he deserved a shot as the starter. Needless to say, he's been a disappointment. Yes it's early in the season, but Aaron is not a proven veteran. He doesnt get the luxury of people believing "he'll break out of it."

When Jose is ready, Willie will likely get moved to CF and Rowand will ride the pine. He certainly doesn't deserve to start.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
You're resorting to hyperbole, but you can still put this to rest by proving your assertion. Six inside-the-park homers . . .

Here's my original quote.

"How long before Rowand misjudges a ball hit short in front of him and it get's by him for an inside-the-park HR? He's already flirted with that happening a half dozen times this year, and we're not even 20% into the season! "

Sorry, but just because he ended up blocking the ball in a frantic last-second hockey-goalie method, does not invalidate the possibility of it getting by him, nor does it support the argument that his defense is anything better than mediocre. Saying that the results justify the means is like saying Koch is almost as good as Gagne because Koch is 4 out of 5 in saves.

If you want to try to use symantics, that's fine, and if you think it's reasonable what you are asking, then I ask you to list what you had for dinner on 6 different days 3 weeks ago.

*****.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Here's my original quote.

"How long before Rowand misjudges a ball hit short in front of him and it get's by him for an inside-the-park HR? He's already flirted with that happening a half dozen times this year, and we're not even 20% into the season! "

Sorry, but just because he ended up blocking the ball in a frantic last-second hockey-goalie method, does not invalidate the possibility of it getting by him, nor does it support the argument that his defense is anything better than mediocre.

If you want to try to use symantics, that's fine, and if you think it's reasonable what you are asking, then I ask you to list what you had for dinner on 6 different days 3 weeks ago.

*****.

As I posted earlier I can live with you be unwilling to offer any proof to back up your ridiculous assertion.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
As I posted earlier I can live with you be unwilling to offer any prove to back up your ridiculous assertion.

LOL! Maybe you should watch the games on TV or in person instead of on MLB Gameday, because that's the only way I could see anyone defending Rowand's defense thus far. You need to lay off the :gulp: buddy.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
As I posted earlier I can live with you be unwilling to offer any proof to back up your ridiculous assertion.

This is like reading quotes from:

:sahaf

"The invading flyballs were NOT misjudged by Aaron Rowand"

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LOL! Maybe you should watch the games on TV or in person instead of on MLB Gameday, because that's the only way I could see anyone defending Rowand's defense thus far. You need to lay off the :gulp: buddy.

Way too defensive Randar ...

Being as obsessed with Rowand's defensive inefficiencies as you are, I'd expect you to be able to point me to specific misplays.

RichFitztightly
05-05-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Way too defensive Randar ...

Being as obsessed with Rowand's defensive inefficiencies as you are, I'd expect you to be able to point me to specific misplays.

Can you point to specific plays where he did everything he's supposed to? Actually, there are so few of those, it might be easier.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Way too defensive Randar ...

Being as obsessed with Rowand's defensive inefficiencies as you are, I'd expect you to be able to point me to specific misplays.

Yep, whatever I'm doing, each time they happen, I write them down in my little anti-Rowand journal, being sure to record all the game-conditions at the time and the temperature and wind at the very instant of the misplay.

He's been playing so great that after a particularly adventurous day against Tampa, he sat in favor of Timo Perez for 3 straight games. Sorry, every misplay doesn't turn up in the box score and I am not obsessed with Rowand. I do enjoy letting people like yourself make circular arguments and fail to make any type of point or valid argument outside of this ridiculous "Well give me the exact 6 examples"

Hell, he did it 2 times in the Cleveland series alone, wake up.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
Can you point to specific plays where he did everything he's supposed to? Actually, there are so few of those, it might be easier.

Don't ask him any questions. He's way too dizzy from going round and round and round without making any kind of sense. The only way possible to think Rowand takes good routes or plays the ball properly is to be drunk or dizzy or both, so cut joecrede a little slack...

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Don't ask him any questions. He's way too dizzy from going round and round and round without making any kind of sense. The only way possible to think Rowand takes good routes or plays the ball properly is to be drunk or dizzy or both, so cut joecrede a little slack...

Oh yeah:

:tomatoaward

And my opinion of the FOC:

:chunks

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
Can you point to specific plays where he did everything he's supposed to? Actually, there are so few of those, it might be easier.

The most recent example was last night. 6 chances, no misplays.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Yep, whatever I'm doing, each time they happen, I write them down in my little anti-Rowand journal, being sure to record all the game-conditions at the time and the temperature and wind at the very instant of the misplay.

He's been playing so great that after a particularly adventurous day against Tampa, he sat in favor of Timo Perez for 3 straight games. Sorry, every misplay doesn't turn up in the box score and I am not obsessed with Rowand. I do enjoy letting people like yourself make circular arguments and fail to make any type of point or valid argument outside of this ridiculous "Well give me the exact 6 examples"

Hell, he did it 2 times in the Cleveland series alone, wake up.

These misplays you write about, if they don't turn up in the box score, where do they exist?

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The most recent example was last night. 6 chances, no misplays.

And one "spectacular" diving catch due to taking a circuitous route to the ball by going towards left-center before circling in...

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
These misplays you write about, if they don't turn up in the box score, where do they exist?

Ah yes, the worst logic known to man. Thanks again for proving that you're incapable of individual thought.

I'm done, you can't be more than 13 years old to even type that out without laughing at yourself out of sheer stupidity.

batmanZoSo
05-05-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ahhh, yes, 2 posts in a row putting words in my mouth. Thanks again...

Short of me sending you the video clips of those plays, you won't be happy. What you asked for is completely unreasonable and frankly irrelevant to the discussion. You clearly have no basis to argue this other than attacking a point I made by saying "Well, you can't give me the dates and times of the 6 incidents, then you have no merit"

Sorry, but even the worst lawyer would laugh you out of the room.

:gulp:

With Reed if he struggles out of the gate, it'll probably be with batting average. He'll work walks and have an impressive on-base percentage, but not be hitting the tar out of the ball. Think of Thomas' April. That's what I would expect out of Reed--maybe not hitting much right away, but getting on base.

bigdommer
05-05-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And one "spectacular" diving catch due to taking a circuitous route to the ball by going towards left-center before circling in...

I was in left-center last night with a view similar to what Rowand had on that play. He had a long run and got a decent (not great/not circuitous) jump on it. It's one thing to give examples of bad plays, but it is another to be in complete denial and conspire over good plays. And that was a heck of a good play!

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ah yes, the worst logic known to man. Thanks again for proving that you're incapable of individual thought.

I'm done, you can't be more than 13 years old to even type that out without laughing at yourself out of sheer stupidity.

You have not pointed to the specific misplays. You can't be done.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
With Reed if he struggles out of the gate, it'll probably be with batting average. He'll work walks and have an impressive on-base percentage, but not be hitting the tar out of the ball. Think of Thomas' April. That's what I would expect out of Reed--maybe not hitting much right away, but getting on base.

Well, if history is any indication, Reed's average will be ok, but his K's will be a little inflated initially and his BB's might be a little down. He's such a good contact hitter that I don't think his average would suffer as much as his OBP, at least initially. He's not a guy who''l take 100 BB's, he's a guy that get's on base by striking out infrequently and walking at a decent rate, but primarily through hits.

That's just the pattern he's shown each time he's moved up a level, that is all, it could be way off base when he does actually make the jump, but we'll find out soon enough...

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by bigdommer
I was in left-center last night with a view similar to what Rowand had on that play. He had a long run and got a decent (not great/not circuitous) jump on it. It's one thing to give examples of bad plays, but it is another to be in complete denial and conspire over good plays. And that was a heck of a good play!

The replay cleary showed him taking an indirect route on that play. It was a sinking liner, so I am probably being too harsh, but he certainly did take an indirect route on that play that was evident from an elevated camera angle.

That play is certainly not as indicative of his problems as others, though, you are correct.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
You have not pointed to the specific misplays. You can't be done.

I'm done with you, I'm still waiting on your 6 specific dinners from 3 weeks ago...

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm done with you, I'm still waiting on your 6 specific dinners from 3 weeks ago...

Fair enough Randar. It was nice debating with you.

bigdommer
05-05-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The replay cleary showed him taking an indirect route on that play. It was a sinking liner, so I am probably being too harsh, but he certainly did take an indirect route on that play that was evident from an elevated camera angle.

That play is certainly not as indicative of his problems as others, though, you are correct.

I guess we are both correct. It was a sinking liner, and in night games, it is hard to pick up the topspin. But all outfielders are taught to keep the ball in front of them. Last week at Camden Bigbie broke in on a liner, didn't see the backspin, and it carried over him to the wall.

poorme
05-05-2004, 02:49 PM
Reed's avg is down to .313. Hope he's not the next Jeff Abbott.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Fair enough Randar. It was nice debating with you.

Wish I could say the same, but then again, you make the Iraqi Minister of Information look like an amateur.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The replay cleary showed him taking an indirect route on that play. It was a sinking liner, so I am probably being too harsh, but he certainly did take an indirect route on that play that was evident from an elevated camera angle.

That play is certainly not as indicative of his problems as others, though, you are correct.

So, these are the misplays you write about. You're including balls he catches? Interesting.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Curious Randar, what are your credentials to judge routes run by OF'ers?

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
So, these are the misplays you write about. You're including ball he catches? Interesting.

No, I clearly stated that it was not indicative of his problems, but then again, you've shown a clear lack of reading comprehension throughout this thread...

Continue making yourself look like an idiot, it's working so far...

Randar68
05-05-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Curiour Randar, what are your credentials to judge routes run by OF'ers?

I didn't know I needed a public license. What are your credentials to use circular logic and demand unreasonable levels of evidence?

Like I said, I've proven my point, and you're just going to sit here and sit-and-spin on your own. Have fun, crede.

jabrch
05-05-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
So, these are the misplays you write about. You're including balls he catches? Interesting.

Just because one makes a catch, doesn't mean they made a good play. Here's the problem...

Rowand will never get to the balls that are damn near impossible to get to and make spectacular catches like the great CFs (Beltran, Jones, Hunter).

He takes balls that are hard to get to, and makes them look spectacular.

Routine fly balls that require movement or reading are "adventurous" to say the least.

and worse yet, cans of corn end up often being balls that Rowand makes look like very good catches.

Now I know he isn't Jones/Beltran/Hunter, and that is an unreasonable bar to set for him. But he is not only not in the top 10% - he is in the bottom 10% of defensive CFs I recall seeing.

joecrede
05-05-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I didn't know I needed a public license. What are your credentials to use circular logic and demand unreasonable levels of evidence?

Like I said, I've proven my point, and you're just going to sit here and sit-and-spin on your own. Have fun, crede.

Unreasonable levels of evidence? Hardly.

Rowand's had 53 total chances. In those, where were the near six inside-the-park homers?

joecrede
05-05-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Just because one makes a catch, doesn't mean they made a good play. Here's the problem...

Rowand will never get to the balls that are damn near impossible to get to and make spectacular catches like the great CFs (Beltran, Jones, Hunter).

He takes balls that are hard to get to, and makes them look spectacular.

Routine fly balls that require movement or reading are "adventurous" to say the least.

and worse yet, cans of corn end up often being balls that Rowand makes look like very good catches.

Now I know he isn't Jones/Beltran/Hunter, and that is an unreasonable bar to set for him. But he is not only not in the top 10% - he is in the bottom 10% of defensive CFs I recall seeing.

I believe Rowand's perceived fatal defensive inefficiencies stem solely from the fact that he came up as a corner OF'er.

stillz
05-05-2004, 03:16 PM
Rowand just isn't much of a presence on offense or defense. Let he and Timo come off the bench. Harris has real speed and belongs in CF. Plus, he made that great catch last year with a bubble gum bubble hanging out of his mouth.

Dub25
05-05-2004, 03:30 PM
Blah, Blah, Blah and this useless crap keeps going into another 9 page marathon. Although I do enjoy all the imaginary TV viewers. I'm still waiting for that model to go on sale so I can see how bad Aaron runs for the ball.

CHISOXFAN13
05-05-2004, 03:33 PM
I think the horse is dead. You guys can stop beating it now.

Randar68
05-05-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
Blah, Blah, Blah and this useless crap keeps going into another 9 page marathon. Although I do enjoy all the imaginary TV viewers. I'm still waiting for that model to go on sale so I can see how bad Aaron runs for the ball.

Yeah, you can't possibly learn anything by someone pointing out exactly how the ball is misplayed or how poorly he sets up his feet and then actually looking for that...

Too much cognitive capacity required for all that thinking stuff...

Randar68
05-05-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
I think the horse is dead. You guys can stop beating it now.

MisterB
05-05-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Unreasonable levels of evidence? Hardly.

Rowand's had 53 total chances. In those, where were the near six inside-the-park homers?

Hate to wade into the fray here, but...

Monday's game, 8th inning, Brian Roberts hitting. Flyball to shallow center. Rowand neither makes an all out dive nor plays it on a hop, but makes a half-hearted flop at the last second. The ball short hops him and by his glove. Thanks to the wet conditions, the ball only got past him far enough for a double. Under dry conditions with Roberts' speed that is at least a triple. That's one instance and I've only been able to see 2 Sox games so far this season...

joecrede
05-05-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Hate to wade into the fray here, but...

Monday's game, 8th inning, Brian Roberts hitting. Flyball to shallow center. Rowand neither makes an all out dive nor plays it on a hop, but makes a half-hearted flop at the last second. The ball short hops him and by his glove. Thanks to the wet conditions, the ball only got past him far enough for a double. Under dry conditions with Roberts' speed that is at least a triple. That's one instance and I've only been able to see 2 Sox games so far this season...

That was a double that hit the wall in right-center.

Dub25
05-05-2004, 10:54 PM
I saw this post quickly slipping to the bottom of the list. I really have nothing to say other than I just want to see if Randar posts something. In this thread he's like a lion ready to pounce on his prey. Especially if they something nice about the legendary Aaron Rowand.

stillz
05-05-2004, 10:56 PM
Crash was clutch tonight. Timo misplayed that double very poorly. Maybe Aaron gets the benefit of the doubt tonight?

Dub25
05-05-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by stillz
Crash was clutch tonight. Timo misplayed that double very poorly. Maybe Aaron gets the benefit of the doubt tonight?

Careful, careful you don't want to wake the haters. Let them complain about something worth complaing about. The closer who is on the verge of killing me.

A. Cavatica
05-05-2004, 11:09 PM
Koch takes bad routes to saves.

MisterB
05-06-2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
That was a double that hit the wall in right-center.

What the...? Just double checked the game logs - what the hell game was I watching? :?:

Damn, gotta lay off the sauce... :gulp:

RichFitztightly
05-06-2004, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by stillz
Rowand just isn't much of a presence on offense or defense. Let he and Timo come off the bench. Harris has real speed and belongs in CF. Plus, he made that great catch last year with a bubble gum bubble hanging out of his mouth.

I seem to remember Harris diving and that ball clipping off his glove. Am I thinking of a different play?

tstrike2000
05-06-2004, 10:06 AM
Much like Billy Krotch, I've tried to give Rowand the benefit of the doubt, but how much longer can you keep using the guy. There are better alternatives right on the bench. If possible, trade Rowand and Krotch in a package deal for a starter and platoon Timo Perez and Harris in CF. Like everyone's said, none are stellar hitters, but at least Perez and Harris can cover more ground and both are at least left handed bats in the lineup.

wdelaney72
05-06-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Curious Randar, what are your credentials to judge routes run by OF'ers?

Let's leave Hub Arkish out of this.

Randar68
05-06-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by wdelaney72
Let's leave Hub Arkish out of this.

Good to see all the FOC getting their last pot-shots in on the way out the door...

Thanks for playing.

joecrede
05-17-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Reed, a converted 1B, and Harris, primarily a 2B, are better defensively in CF than a guy who's been an OF'er his whole life. That is disturbing.

Harris a better defensive CF'er than Rowand, Randar? Did you see today's game by chance?

Randar68
05-17-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Harris a better defensive CF'er than Rowand, Randar? Did you see today's game by chance?

Actually, no, I was out of town. Did he not get to a ball that Rowand would have missed by 25 feet?

*****. Basically, anyone who still says Rowand is a good defensive OF'er is either blind or has absolutely zero baseball knowledge or analytical abilities.

Again, now trying to cut-down a 2B playing CF in order to prop up a pathetically baselass pro-Rowand stance?

desperate, aren't the FOC?

pearso66
05-17-2004, 12:39 AM
As I said in another thread, you have to give willie some time. He has not been playing OF his whole life like rowand, and has not played OF at all this year. And by the looks of things today, he was not any worse. Once he gets some time, he will improve and be better than rowand. Give him a couple weeks.

SEALgep
05-17-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Actually, no, I was out of town. Did he not get to a ball that Rowand would have missed by 25 feet?

*****. Basically, anyone who still says Rowand is a good defensive OF'er is either blind or has absolutely zero baseball knowledge or analytical abilities.

Again, now trying to cut-down a 2B playing CF in order to prop up a pathetically baselass pro-Rowand stance?

desperate, aren't the FOC? Randar, make your points without the insults. I mean, you didn't even see the game today, yet your opinion about how Harris plays CF is more accurate than this person who saw it. Sounds like desperation is on the other foot.

joecrede
05-17-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Actually, no, I was out of town. Did he not get to a ball that Rowand would have missed by 25 feet?

*****. Basically, anyone who still says Rowand is a good defensive OF'er is either blind or has absolutely zero baseball knowledge or analytical abilities.

Again, now trying to cut-down a 2B playing CF in order to prop up a pathetically baselass pro-Rowand stance?

desperate, aren't the FOC?

You're something else Randar. Good for a laugh.

Randar68
05-17-2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Randar, make your points without the insults. I mean, you didn't even see the game today, yet your opinion about how Harris plays CF is more accurate than this person who saw it. Sounds like desperation is on the other foot.

my opinion on Harris is based on the 20 or so games I have seen him play. not one day. Whereas, apparently that Anaheim game must be the only game you have actually ever "seen" rowand play in CF if you think he's good in any way shape or form...

Randar68
05-17-2004, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
You're something else Randar. Good for a laugh.

Glad you and SEAL could enjoy each other some more.

Enjoy your blissful life of ignorance.


Ooops... there I go again...


BLA

Randar68
05-17-2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Randar, make your points without the insults.

I've made my points hundreds of times.

Now I'm just playing with the rock-heads still baselessly defending him.

jshanahanjr
05-18-2004, 05:10 PM
It's a long season. Let's see what he can do over the long haul. He is makes the plays in the field. He isn't Edmonds, but who is? He plays hard at all times, and that will pay off in the long run.