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dougs78
05-02-2004, 08:18 PM
Did anyone else catch the "talking baseball" show on ESPN 1000 at about noon? I was driving near Lafayette and the signal was fading a little bit, but I heard Levine talking about Wright being sent down and possible options to replace him as the 5 starter.

He specifically mentioned Diaz and Kohlmeier from AAA, but also said a trade is a possibility. He said that one name he continues to hear is Freddy Garcia. He went on to say that he did not want to mention names, but that he felt that the trade would be centered around us giving up a hitter. No mention of whether that was an minor or major league hitter.

Did anyone else hear this that can elaborate/confirm all this?

chidonez
05-02-2004, 08:20 PM
Did he happen to mention Valentin?

HomeFish
05-02-2004, 08:20 PM
Freddy Garcia as a #5 starter? I'm afraid we don't have that kind of luxury. He would be #2 or #3 over here.

MRKARNO
05-02-2004, 08:22 PM
Ozzie is supposedly good friends with Garcia and we were considering acquiring him this offseason. This does not come as a surprise.

Freddy is 0-1 with a 2.27 ERA with 25 Ks in 35. 2IP

beckett21
05-02-2004, 08:30 PM
Have to say I was beating that drum in the offseason. Looks to me that Freddy has silenced his doubters at least for the timebeing. He will not come as cheaply now, but he is EXACTLY what this rotation needs. Not another fringe guy, a bona-fide pitcher. That guy is a helluva pitcher and an inning-eater. Seems to be over last year's struggles. He has had NO run support but has pitched lights-out so far.

Remember, he will be a FA after this season IIRC so Seattle may be willing to deal him especially if they continue to flounder. I would LOVE to see him on our side.

dougs78
05-02-2004, 08:32 PM
The "Number" of the starter is not really important, what is relevant is that he would replace the person who is now our 5th starter.

He did not mention Valentin, although IIRC wasn't Valentin rumored to Seattle for Garcia in the winter, until Seattle traded Carlos Guillen?

Levine basically said just what we already knew, that there had been much talk about Garcia all offseason, however the new info (at least to me) was that there was still talk about trading for him.


Originally posted by HomeFish
Freddy Garcia as a #5 starter? I'm afraid we don't have that kind of luxury. He would be #2 or #3 over here.

lowesox
05-02-2004, 08:36 PM
WEll if you look at the expendable White Sox:

Valentin, Wunsch and Wright

I think you have a fairly reasonable deal. It even works out pretty well financially.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2004, 08:41 PM
I would give up a minor leaguer or two before I'd give up Valentin. Willie Harris is not the answer and never will be.

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 08:54 PM
They have Aurilia, so where would Valentin play on the Mariners? I think they're set at DH.....

A. Cavatica
05-02-2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
expendable White Sox:

Your list of expendable White Sox is way too short.

I would have no problem if any of the following hitters were dealt, assuming we got good value in return.

Alomar
Burke
Konerko
Gload
Harris
Valentin
Dransfeldt
Lee
Rowand
Perez
Borchard

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 09:22 PM
I am obviously not a GM, but I distinctly remember wanting this guy BADLY in the offseason. He was mentioned in rumors, and I really wanted KW to pull the trigger for Garcia. A lot of fans have a short memory...as Garcia started the all-star game in 2002. The guy is a stud who had an off year last year for whatever reason.

I don't know if Valentin (plus add-ins) for Garcia was ever on the table, and won't ever know, but we should have pulled the trigger in the offseason. Now, he is quitely silencing his doubters with that 2.27 ERA and the asking price is getting higher and higher.

guillen4life13
05-02-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Your list of expendable White Sox is way too short.

I would have no problem if any of the following hitters were dealt, assuming we got good value in return.

Alomar
Burke
Konerko
Gload
Harris
Valentin
Dransfeldt
Lee
Rowand
Perez
Borchard

Whoa! What?

Valentin, Gload, Rowand, Perez, Dransfeldt, and Burke are expendable. Borchard can be argued as expendable, but the rest are not (or at least not to Seattle). Why?

Alomar is needed here to mentor Olivo. There has been enough coverage on that topic that would convince me of that, plus he's on a pretty small salary.

Konerko to Seattle? I'll tell you this: he isn't gonna displace Olerud or Edgar, so forget about it.

If Harris leaves, then who leads off? Uribe may be capable, but I think Harris is the better of the two options.

The Sox just inked Lee to a contract and he just had a breakout year last year. Why would they trade him?

And here's this: Borchard has been hailed as the Sox' power threat of the future for the last few years. I'm sure the Sox have faith in him still. I don't have faith, but the Sox probably do--thus making him a keeper unless there comes an offer they can't refuse.

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 09:27 PM
I hope your faith in Borchard isn't very high, b/c you are setting yourself up for disapointment.

SEALgep
05-02-2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I hope your faith in Borchard isn't very high, b/c you are setting yourself up for disapointment. In fact, if we could give them Borchard as the main portion of the deal, that would be outstanding. Although it's probably not going down that way, if at all.

A. Cavatica
05-02-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Borchard can be argued as expendable, but the rest are not (or at least not to Seattle). Why?

I'm not considering Seattle's needs specifically, I'm just saying that the Sox should consider trading any of these hitterrs if it helps the team.

Obviously, Seattle doesn't need Konerko, but we also talked trade with Anaheim and LA, and I was all for trading Konerko then. He's been hot; it's an even better idea to trade him now (before the inevitable cold streak).

Lee is as good as he's going to get, and most people look at the average and power numbers and overrate him. He's already on the cusp of underperforming at his new salary. If I could get a #3 starter and a prospect for him, I'd pull the trigger.

I've pretty much given up on Borchard, so if there's still a GM out here who wants to take a gamble on ol' Light Tower Power and give us an actual major league ballplayer in return, terrific.

Harris isn't doing a very good job as a leadoff hitter now, so the Sox aren't going to miss his bat. Obviously they need stability at SS/2B and Uribe figures at one of those positions. If some team actually wanted Harris, I'd make him available, but of course I'd have to make another trade to replace him.

Alomar's at the end of the line, and the Sox already traded him once in a deadline deal, so obviously they might do it again. You would never hold up a big trade for something as vague as "mentoring Olivo".

Dadawg_77
05-02-2004, 09:42 PM
Felix Diaz isn't being called up to take Wrights spot and they are starting Mark on three days rest (not bad thing to use a four man rotation.) But could they be keeping him down so not taking the risk he would get lit up in the majors, thus keeping his value high.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Whoa! What?

Valentin, Gload, Rowand, Perez, Dransfeldt, and Burke are expendable. Borchard can be argued as expendable, but the rest are not (or at least not to Seattle). Why?

Alomar is needed here to mentor Olivo. There has been enough coverage on that topic that would convince me of that, plus he's on a pretty small salary.

Konerko to Seattle? I'll tell you this: he isn't gonna displace Olerud or Edgar, so forget about it.

If Harris leaves, then who leads off? Uribe may be capable, but I think Harris is the better of the two options.

The Sox just inked Lee to a contract and he just had a breakout year last year. Why would they trade him?

And here's this: Borchard has been hailed as the Sox' power threat of the future for the last few years. I'm sure the Sox have faith in him still. I don't have faith, but the Sox probably do--thus making him a keeper unless there comes an offer they can't refuse.

Oh man I'd take Garcia for Lee in a heartbeat. His contract is partly what makes him so tradeable. And other teams can be fooled into thinking he's gonna be a great hitter when he won't be. He'll never do but maybe a little bit better than last year. J. Reed is waiting in the wings. We're better off without Lee and his price tag.

lowesox
05-02-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Your list of expendable White Sox is way too short.

I would have no problem if any of the following hitters were dealt, assuming we got good value in return.

Alomar
Burke
Konerko
Gload
Harris
Valentin
Dransfeldt
Lee
Rowand
Perez
Borchard

I'm starting to take issue with people still trying to trade away Konerko. He's been one of our more valuable players this year. If you think we don't need him, fine. But, it seems to me, people are still wanting to deal him because he had a poor season last year.

And I agree with Guillen for life a lot of those guys up there aren't exactly expendable - especially since this team (which is made up of many of those players) has had incredible chemistry.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I'm starting to take issue with people still trying to trade away Konerko. He's been one of our more valuable players this year. If you think we don't need him, fine. But, it seems to me, people are still wanting to deal him because he had a poor season last year.

And I agree with Guillen for life a lot of those guys up there aren't exactly expendable - especially since this team (which is made up of many of those players) has had incredible chemistry.

I take issue with the fact that we have no center fielder or second baseman. While we have Frank and Konerko making 6-8 million a piece, both first basemen. It doesn't make sense to carry Konerko with our salary constraints. I like him, there's nothing personal there, but we'd be better off trading him for prospects and signing a good center fielder.

SEALgep
05-02-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica

Alomar's at the end of the line, and the Sox already traded him once in a deadline deal, so obviously they might do it again. You would never hold up a big trade for something as vague as "mentoring Olivo".
Alomar is still vauable to this club. You could do a lot worse for a backup catcher, especially with what he does for Olivo. But another aspect to consider about Alomar is that he has a bright future as a manager. If we keep him around and get a spot for him to teach some young bucks down at the minor league level, that would be outstanding. I'm pretty sure that's the plan whenever he retires. I still think he's got another season after this one, and after that we'll see. But I would really like to have him manage one of our minor league teams.

A. Cavatica
05-02-2004, 10:49 PM
You could deal any one of these guys without it affecting chemistry. Bring in a starter who can win 15 games and it might actually improve chemistry.

The problem with Konerko is salary more than anything. I expected him to rebound to his usual numbers, which is to say he'll be great for half a season, terrible for half a season, and finish in the middle of the pack for first basemen. Of course, if the Sox have to eat his salary to move him, it's not worth moving him.

But let's just imagine that <pipedream>some GM sees Konerko's hot April and decides to pick up his salary</pipedream>. If Konerko were traded, it would mean more at-bats for Gload, and I think the lefty bat (and better speed) would compensate for any drop in production. It could also mean some time at first for Frank before the interleague games start. But most of all, it would free up cash to fill other, bigger holes.

brocco bry
05-02-2004, 10:54 PM
Seattle could use Valentin. They are hurting up the middle (SS to Detroit and Cameron is gone) and Jose would help. The also lost Jeff Nelson, so maybe we can pawn Wunsch off on them.

SEALgep
05-02-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I take issue with the fact that we have no center fielder or second baseman. While we have Frank and Konerko making 6-8 million a piece, both first basemen. It doesn't make sense to carry Konerko with our salary constraints. I like him, there's nothing personal there, but we'd be better off trading him for prospects and signing a good center fielder. Frank is a DH not a first baseman, so that's misleading. I don't think we're better off trading him for prospects, because one that sends a poor mesage to fans, and two we have a shot to win the division this year, and PK would certainly be a big contributer to that. As far as center fielders are concerned, we're better off with Reed than trading PK and getting some CF from somewhere.

SEALgep
05-02-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
You could deal any one of these guys without it affecting chemistry. Bring in a starter who can win 15 games and it might actually improve chemistry.

The problem with Konerko is salary more than anything. I expected him to rebound to his usual numbers, which is to say he'll be great for half a season, terrible for half a season, and finish in the middle of the pack for first basemen. Of course, if the Sox have to eat his salary to move him, it's not worth moving him.

But let's just imagine that <pipedream>some GM sees Konerko's hot April and decides to pick up his salary</pipedream>. If Konerko were traded, it would mean more at-bats for Gload, and I think the lefty bat (and better speed) would compensate for any drop in production. It could also mean some time at first for Frank before the interleague games start. But most of all, it would free up cash to fill other, bigger holes. If we traded PK under those circumstances, and got someone that helps our ball club right now, and used Gload as a first baseman, that's certainly an option to consider. IMO it would have to be a pretty darn good player or two to give him up with the addition of taking on his salary. Maybe too much to expect, but I'm not big on cutting PK loose for something average.

beckett21
05-02-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I am obviously not a GM, but I distinctly remember wanting this guy BADLY in the offseason. He was mentioned in rumors, and I really wanted KW to pull the trigger for Garcia. A lot of fans have a short memory...as Garcia started the all-star game in 2002. The guy is a stud who had an off year last year for whatever reason.

I don't know if Valentin (plus add-ins) for Garcia was ever on the table, and won't ever know, but we should have pulled the trigger in the offseason. Now, he is quitely silencing his doubters with that 2.27 ERA and the asking price is getting higher and higher.

Soxxos,

You know of what you speak. And I agree 1000% with you.

Of course, this does us no good right now, but I thought it was fun to look back at anyhow. (That search engine can sure be a double-edged sword, scary! :o: )

Freddy Garcia thread here in case anyone cares (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29794&highlight=Freddy+Garcia)

A. Cavatica
05-02-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
we have a shot to win the division this year, and PK would certainly be a big contributer to that.

You're assuming that 1) Gload wouldn't contribute as much if given the opportunity, 2) we wouldn't get a competent starter or leadoff man in return for PK, and 3) we wouldn't get any benefit from spreading PK's salary around.

The point of a trade is to turn assets that you can't use into assets you can use...

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Soxxos,

You know of what you speak. And I agree 1000% with you.

Of course, this does us no good right now, but I thought it was fun to look back at anyhow. (That search engine can sure be a double-edged sword, scary! :o: )

Freddy Garcia thread here in case anyone cares (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29794&highlight=Freddy+Garcia)

Thanks beckett...right back at you. I love looking back at old threads when I am right...it's not as fun if you are wrong, though. :D:

lowesox
05-03-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
You're assuming that 1) Gload wouldn't contribute as much if given the opportunity, 2) we wouldn't get a competent starter or leadoff man in return for PK, and 3) we wouldn't get any benefit from spreading PK's salary around.

The point of a trade is to turn assets that you can't use into assets you can use...

Keep in mind that Gload, while not being an everyday player, still plays a valuable role on this team as a reserve. If we move him into a starting role, his previous role would have to be replaced. Also, keep in mind that Konerko is only starting to show other GMs that last year was an abberation. Once he's returned to full value, I'll be ok with our talking about trading him. Until then, I say we keep him.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Frank is a DH not a first baseman, so that's misleading. I don't think we're better off trading him for prospects, because one that sends a poor mesage to fans, and two we have a shot to win the division this year, and PK would certainly be a big contributer to that. As far as center fielders are concerned, we're better off with Reed than trading PK and getting some CF from somewhere.

I don't want to trade Konerko for prospects in the middle of a pennant race. I'm talking about next winter. I would be in favor of trading him this summer, but it would have to be for major league replacements, most likely the bullpen or a starter.

And with Frank, he IS a first baseman. He's capable of playing the position. He's not Edgar Martinez. And Frank hits so much better when playing first, it makes sense to give him part time duties in the field if we do trade PK. Gload or someone else would get most of the playing time out there.

Reed isn't even a center fielder. He's a left fielder. Scouting reports I've read say he'd be an average center fielder because he doesn't have outstanding instincts. He runs well, but isn't blazing fast. In the corners, he's pretty good defensively. I'm sure he could play center, after all Rowand does right now. But the objective in my plans is to improve the defense, not to continue to play guys out of position. We're not improving much defensively by putting Reed in center. We would be improving tremendously with him in left over Lee. Let's not jam Reed like we did with Rowand.

We sorely need to sign a center fielder for two or three years until Brian Anderson or another prospect is ready to step in. With PK and Lee, I'm just prioritizing. We gotta re-sign Maggs and we have to improve our pitching and defense in the outfield, which right now is terrible. It's not really productive to spend 16 million on Lee and Konerko when A) we can get good prospects or pitchers for them and B) we don't have a shortage of power. I'd actually rather be like the Twins and score runs by first and thirding and stealing bases. We got our two big time power hitters in Frank and Maggs. As long as some guys are getting on base for them, preferably with some speed (which isn't the case now) we'll be a potent offensive team.

MRKARNO
05-03-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Thanks beckett...right back at you. I love looking back at old threads when I am right...it's not as fun if you are wrong, though. :D:

Well at the time you criticized me for not wanting to take a wait and see approach with Freddy Garcia. We waited and saw that at least it appears as though he has turned it around. I'm ready to give up a Valentin or someone comparable in the last year of their deal or a package of lesser players in order to obtain Garcia, but the longer we wait, the lesser of an impact he would have on our success. Jose is in a state of decline in terms of where he is in his career and Garcia is in the prime of his career. Plus we can manage quite well without Jose. Having Harris lead off the whole year at second might not be the end of the world (but Brian Roberts or Hairston Jr would be nice).

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well at the time you criticized me for not wanting to take a wait and see approach with Freddy Garcia. We waited and saw that at least it appears as though he has turned it around. I'm ready to give up a Valentin or someone comparable in the last year of their deal or a package of lesser players in order to obtain Garcia, but the longer we wait, the lesser of an impact he would have on our success. Jose is in a state of decline in terms of where he is in his career and Garcia is in the prime of his career. Plus we can manage quite well without Jose. Having Harris lead off the whole year at second might not be the end of the world (but Brian Roberts or Hairston Jr would be nice).

No one answered my question and that is why would the Mariners want Valentin? I don't know who we have in position players that they would want.

1b Olerud...staying
2b Boone...for Willie? haha
SS Aurilia...better than Valentin
3b Cirillo (?) doesn't matter cause we're not giving them Crede
LF Ibanez...better than Lee
CF Winn...better than Rowand
RF Suzuki...we're both very much set here
C Davis (?) doesn't matter cause we're not giving them Olivo
DH Edgar

What do we have that could fill one of their holes? Nothing in the area of pos. players. Unless they want prospects for Freddy, I don't see the sense in this.

SoxxoS
05-03-2004, 01:20 AM
I disagree with you highly on your Ibanez > Lee assessment. I think you are way off there.

But you bring up a good point, we really don't have anything to give them...it's going to have to be a big prospect. I would drive Borchard to Safeco if they wanted him for Garcia straight up.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I disagree with you highly on your Ibanez > Lee assessment. I think you are way off there.

But you bring up a good point, we really don't have anything to give them...it's going to have to be a big prospect. I would drive Borchard to Safeco if they wanted him for Garcia straight up.

If Lee is better than Ibanez it ain't by too much. And the latter hits left handed, so he's got that going for him.

I don't know what prospects would make the trade work either. We basically need all we got down there. Maybe Borchard as you suggested, but would JR allow that considering he set a precedent with that signing? And do other teams still see him as worth a damn? I know I don't at the moment. He could turn that around, but that's another discussion. If they did want Borchard, we'd have to throw in Munoz and or Pacheco probably.

joeynach
05-03-2004, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
They have Aurilia, so where would Valentin play on the Mariners? I think they're set at DH.....

It doesn't matter there is absolutly no way the sox are going to trade a left handed bat with considerable pop at this point. They are weak from the left side and getting rid of valentin wouldn't help, even if he plays the bench for us.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by joeynach
It doesn't matter there is absolutly no way the sox are going to trade a left handed bat with considerable pop at this point. They are weak from the left side and getting rid of valentin wouldn't help, even if he plays the bench for us.

Valentin is only half a hitter in the first place. He can't touch lefties. Okay, he's 70% of a hitter. Losing his 20 left handed homers doesn't hurt if you replace Dan Wright with Freddy Garcia! Come on, Valentin is not that important. If Garrett Anderson was our lone lefty with power, then I might hesitate.

But the whole Valentin for Garcia (or anyone on the big league roster for Garcia) doesn't make sense because as I said earlier, they don't need anyone we got.