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PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2004, 02:15 PM
At the beginning of today's game Farmer starts whining about ballplayers from our side standing at attention, caps over heart, while the Canadian anthem is being played.

:farmer
"Your allegiance is to *our* country."

***?

:?:

I'm done apologizing for this idiot. It's not like most or even any of the ballplayers from Toronto are Canadian. And it's not like any of the ballplayers are turning against their country by standing at attention for the playing of another nation's anthem. It's for the *fans* of the two teams that the anthem is played, regardless of the nationality of the ballplayers. It's a sign of *respect*, not treason, that they do so.

Here was Rooney's response:

:rooney
"......"

At least one of our announcers has a clue.

TDog
05-02-2004, 02:25 PM
Canada has a better national anthem than the USA, no matter what you think of their foreign policy.

faneidde
05-02-2004, 02:26 PM
Somone has a future as a diplomat.

But seriously, that does it hurt to respect the national anthem of Canadian. Especially when it is a much better song. (Note: I only mean it sounds better, not that it means more, etc.)

DrummerGeorgefan
05-02-2004, 02:26 PM
I caught that too. Farmer was on a US nationalism tear.

kermittheefrog
05-02-2004, 03:09 PM
O Canada is a pretty sweet national anthem as far as national anthems go.

NonetheLoaiza
05-02-2004, 03:21 PM
i didnt necessarily agree with farmer. i got his point, but isnt it about what the song means to you, not where your hat is when it is being played?

voodoochile
05-02-2004, 03:47 PM
Farmer should be fired for this, IMO. Simply unbelievable that he would say something this crass and bad for the teams image.

SouthSideHitman
05-02-2004, 04:11 PM
O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.



No matte how you slice it, that is a sweet national anthem and Farmer needs a catscan for that little slip.

SoxFan76
05-02-2004, 04:33 PM
I kind of agree with him. The allegiance of most players is to the United States, not Canada. Sure, he probably should of kept that comment to himself, but I agree with Farmer.

inta
05-02-2004, 04:36 PM
man i like farmer, but that's just an idiotic thing to say.
we're part of the united states OF AMERICA. canada is america too.

and like everyone said, the canadian anthem is a very great national anthem

kermittheefrog
05-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
I kind of agree with him. The allegiance of most players is to the United States, not Canada. Sure, he probably should of kept that comment to himself, but I agree with Farmer.

Yeah and its not like theres any reason to respect other countries.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 04:42 PM
I like "Blame Canada" myself. hehehe

DSpivack
05-02-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
I kind of agree with him. The allegiance of most players is to the United States, not Canada. Sure, he probably should of kept that comment to himself, but I agree with Farmer.

Allegiance of most players is to the United States? Are the majority of players from the U.S.?

SoxBoy14
05-02-2004, 04:53 PM
I like our National Anthem because when the singer reaches "And the Land of the FREEEEE" the whole crowd starts cheering like crazy.

SoxFan76
05-02-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Allegiance of most players is to the United States? Are the majority of players from the U.S.?

Yeah, I had a brain fart there. I realized what I said after I posted it. Although I stand by my statement that players born in the US shouldn't have to sing the national anthem of another country. The MLB is an American based sport, if this was the CFL then I could understand American born football players singing the national anthem. If this was the Japanese baseball league, then I could understand Americans singing their national anthem.

And by the way, I think the majority of players are still American born, but the Latins are closing in fast. I could be wrong though.

NorthSideConvert
05-02-2004, 04:59 PM
Years ago, when I worked at the NL park on the North Side, one of the women who worked in our concesion stand was Canadian by birth. When the Expos were in town, she would always sing along with O Canada in French, in her old lady 3 pack a day voice. Here in Manchester, before AHL hockey games, against Canaidan teams, half of the audiance sings along to O Canada...in French. I much prefer that version to the English actually.

WinningUgly!
05-02-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack


Allegiance of most players is to the United States? Are the majority of players from the U.S.?


Originally posted by SoxFan76


Yeah, I had a brain fart there. I realized what I said after I posted it. Although I stand by my statement that players born in the US shouldn't have to sing the national anthem of another country. The MLB is an American based sport, if this was the CFL then I could understand American born football players singing the national anthem. If this was the Japanese baseball league, then I could understand Americans singing their national anthem.

And by the way, I think the majority of players are still American born, but the Latins are closing in fast. I could be wrong though.

9 players currently on the 25-man roster are not American born. It'll be 10 again, when Valentin comes back.

DSpivack
05-02-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
Yeah, I had a brain fart there. I realized what I said after I posted it. Although I stand by my statement that players born in the US shouldn't have to sing the national anthem of another country. The MLB is an American based sport, if this was the CFL then I could understand American born football players singing the national anthem. If this was the Japanese baseball league, then I could understand Americans singing their national anthem.

And by the way, I think the majority of players are still American born, but the Latins are closing in fast. I could be wrong though.

If anyone is less lazy than I am, it'd be cool if they could just enumerate the countries that the Sox are from.

Also, a team a represents the city it comes from; the city represents the country. I think it cool that both national anthems are played, and have no problem with it.

Johnny Mostil
05-02-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
Yeah, I had a brain fart there. I realized what I said after I posted it. Although I stand by my statement that players born in the US shouldn't have to sing the national anthem of another country. The MLB is an American based sport, if this was the CFL then I could understand American born football players singing the national anthem. If this was the Japanese baseball league, then I could understand Americans singing their national anthem.

And by the way, I think the majority of players are still American born, but the Latins are closing in fast. I could be wrong though.

Foreign-born Sox include at least:

Loaiza
Marte
Takatsu
Olivo
Uribe
Lee
Ordonez
Perez

managed, of course, by Guillen.

I didn't hear Farmer, so I won't comment, though I don't know why national anthems are (or should be) sung before sporting events.

SoxFan76
05-02-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
If anyone is less lazy than I am, it'd be cool if they could just enumerate the countries that the Sox are from.

Also, a team a represents the city it comes from; the city represents the country. I think it cool that both national anthems are played, and have no problem with it.

Then we can agree to disagree. No big deal.

adsit
05-02-2004, 05:09 PM
Not trying to defend Farmer, for my jaw hit the floor when I heard this as well, but I understood what he was trying to say.

He was tripped up over the symbolism not of players standing for respect (noting, at one point, that this was fine), but of them holding their caps across their chest, the "hand on heart in allegiance" that is the loosely adopted civilian equivalent of the military salute. A subtle, albeit weird, distinction.

He is of the opinion that you can show allegiance but to one country. Technically, he is right. If you follow the cue of military honor details, accompanying the President for welcoming ceremonies of foreign leaders, you'll see they stand at attention for respect, but US soldiers salute neither foreign anthems or flags.

Okay, fine, I got that. But it's crackpot-y and weird to hold a professional sports team to military conventions, especially on the official team broadcast. As PHG points out, not too many pro baseball players are Canadian. But a good number of them are foreign citizens. Would we advocate those non-American guys smokin' and jokin', or staying in the dugout, during the American anthem? Of course not. Yet that's the logical progression of Farmer's "argument," that respect to the American flag/anthem is the exclusive privilege of American citizens.

DSpivack
05-02-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
9 players currently on the 25-man roster are not American born. It'll be 10 again, when Valentin comes back.

Thanks!

WinningUgly!
05-02-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
If anyone is less lazy than I am, it'd be cool if they could just enumerate the countries that the Sox are from.

Also, a team a represents the city it comes from; the city represents the country. I think it cool that both national anthems are played, and have no problem with it.

Dominican Republic:
Damaso Marte, Miguel Olivo, Juan Uribe, Timo Perez

Puerto Rico*:
Sandy Alomar, Jose Valentin

Venezuela:
Magglio Ordonez

Panama:
Carlos Lee

Mexico:
Esteban Loaiza

Japan:
Shingo Takatsu

ShoelessFred
05-02-2004, 05:26 PM
it's well known that prejudice against the country of canada has been supported by our government for decades.

humansushi
05-02-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Not trying to defend Farmer, for my jaw hit the floor when I heard this as well, but I understood what he was trying to say.

He was tripped up over the symbolism not of players standing for respect (noting, at one point, that this was fine), but of them holding their caps across their chest, the "hand on heart in allegiance" that is the loosely adopted civilian equivalent of the military salute. A subtle, albeit weird, distinction.

He is of the opinion that you can show allegiance but to one country. Technically, he is right. If you follow the cue of military honor details, accompanying the President for welcoming ceremonies of foreign leaders, you'll see they stand at attention for respect, but US soldiers salute neither foreign anthems or flags.

Okay, fine, I got that. But it's crackpot-y and weird to hold a professional sports team to military conventions, especially on the official team broadcast. As PHG points out, not too many pro baseball players are Canadian. But a good number of them are foreign citizens. Would we advocate those non-American guys smokin' and jokin', or staying in the dugout, during the American anthem? Of course not. Yet that's the logical progression of Farmer's "argument," that respect to the American flag/anthem is the exclusive privilege of American citizens.

Very well put. He wasn't necessarily ripping the Canadien Anthem, but for non-Canadiens holding their hands/hats over their hearts. He was probably just upset over the ignorance of players/fans not knowing the proper ettiqeutte towards anthems. Stop and think about how it would feel to be an American, standing amongst foreign nationals, listening to their national anthem while covering your heart. A little strange huh? It's a sense of national pride. Having been in the military and lived overseas, I've been in these situations on many a day.

Again I think it was more of a lesson, but he was a bit harsh about the whole thing. Let's see if he gets to the clubhouse and what the players do later in the week in Toronto.

faneidde
05-02-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by SoxBoy14
I like our National Anthem because when the singer reaches "And the Land of the FREEEEE" the whole crowd starts cheering like crazy.
Everyone cheers because the song is almost over and the game is about to start. At least, that's why I'm cheering.

TornLabrum
05-02-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by SouthSideHitman
O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.


One thing I've learned from this: Canadians must pull a lot of guard duty.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-02-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I like "Blame Canada" myself. hehehe

yeah, canada can go suck on a lemon for all i care

Hangar18
05-02-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Farmer should be fired for this, IMO. Simply unbelievable that he would say something this crass and bad for the teams image.

This probably wasnt in Good Taste, But Dusty Baker has been Involved in More Controversial Statements, and hes still here, So I dont see this going anywhere.

voodoochile
05-02-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
This probably wasnt in Good Taste, But Dusty Baker has been Involved in More Controversial Statements, and hes still here, So I dont see this going anywhere.

Farmer's a major Face for the Sox.

How many people will actually know that stuff about saluting your countries colors only? Makes sense, but until it was printed here, I wouldn't have thought about it. I probably don't put my hand over my heart for Oh Canada when I am at a game, but I had no idea it was actually a rule.

People will merely here Farmer ripping Canada. Soundbites happen and that's all people care about.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by JohnBasedowYoda
yeah, canada can go suck on a lemon for all i care

"I don't trust a country with that many French-speaking people. And they're RIGHT...above us." -- Denis Leary

Daver
05-02-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
"I don't trust a country with that many French-speaking people. And they're RIGHT...above us." -- Denis Leary

Bashing Canada does not go over well here.

Do with that info what you will,but you have been warned.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Bashing Canada does not go over well here.

Do with that info what you will,but you have been warned.

I'm just messing around. Bashing? No.

chidonez
05-02-2004, 07:17 PM
I heard Farmer's comments while waiting in line for tickets. Pretty sad. And I can't help but wonder what the Canadian players do when they come to an American park? Did they salute today?

On top of that, we now have two opportunities to salute the flag during one game. I'm all for patriotism, but I don't care much for God Bless America. America the Beautiful is a better song, IMHO, and isn't one salute enough? Perhaps they should do a silent moment each game in honor of the troops instead.

adsit
05-02-2004, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How many people will actually know that stuff about saluting your countries colors only? Makes sense, but until it was printed here, I wouldn't have thought about it. I probably don't put my hand over my heart for Oh Canada when I am at a game, but I had no idea it was actually a rule.

People will merely here Farmer ripping Canada. Soundbites happen and that's all people care about.

That's exactly why I thought Farmer bringing the whole thing up was inappropriate. He didn't articulate himself well, and it sounded exactly as you heard it, less of an etiquette lesson and more of a Canada-bashing.

Even though I understand the hand-over-heart business, I don't see why it's such a big deal. I'd rather be over-courteous than disrespectful.

As far as the players go, they represent teams that, in turn, represent cities and nations. MLB is an international organization. It's a team activity to stand out there when the anthems are played, not an individual one. We wouldn't want to see the non-naturalized foreign players drop their hats from their chests when the American anthem's played, even though they'd be justified in doing so. So we can't really complain when they leave 'em up for the Canadian one.

Whitesox029
05-02-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by TDog
Canada has a better national anthem than the USA, no matter what you think of their foreign policy.
I don't understand this, personally. First off I think "The Star-Spangled Banner" is the best of our patriotic songs. Better than America the Beautiful or God Bless America. Second, it's not the sound that makes an anthem greater or better than another, it's the meaning, and ours has (or should have) more meaning for us than theirs does. I don't care how it sounds (though I think it sounds just fine), but our national anthem brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it. This is because every time I hear it I picture that flag flying triumphantly over a battlefield and all that it stands for. One of the most emotional moments of my entire life was attending a church service on September 11, 2001. Instead of the usual church hymns, the service ended with the national anthem and there wasn't a dry eye in the place.
As to Farmer, he probably wasn't thinking when he said that. People who are involved with the media in one way or another slip up like that all the time because they have to be PC all the time and sometimes forget that. Look at Jerry Angelo's "Turban" comment. It was just a small slip-up that was certainly not grounds for dismissal.

Whitesox029
05-02-2004, 07:57 PM
You may now call me an extreme nationalist (insert 4-letter word here).

TornLabrum
05-02-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
I don't understand this, personally. First off I think "The Star-Spangled Banner" is the best of our patriotic songs. Better than America the Beautiful or God Bless America. Second, it's not the sound that makes an anthem greater or better than another, it's the meaning, and ours has (or should have) more meaning for us than theirs does. I don't care how it sounds (though I think it sounds just fine), but our national anthem brings a tear to my eye every time I hear it. This is because every time I hear it I picture that flag flying triumphantly over a battlefield and all that it stands for. One of the most emotional moments of my entire life was attending a church service on September 11, 2001. Instead of the usual church hymns, the service ended with the national anthem and there wasn't a dry eye in the place.
As to Farmer, he probably wasn't thinking when he said that. People who are involved with the media in one way or another slip up like that all the time because they have to be PC all the time and sometimes forget that. Look at Jerry Angelo's "Turban" comment. It was just a small slip-up that was certainly not grounds for dismissal.

Did you know that the tune for "The Star-Spangled Banner" is an English drinking song? That's probably why it's played in ball parks, come to think of it....

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

"And the *hic* rocketsh red glare!"

EDIT: Before I offend too many people, the point is that that is why the song is nearly impossible for anyone but a person with vocal training or a drunk to attempt to sing due to it's outrageous range.

WLL1855
05-02-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Dominican Republic:
Damaso Marte, Miguel Olivo, Juan Uribe, Timo Perez

Puerto Rico*:
Sandy Alomar, Jose Valentin

Venezuela:
Magglio Ordonez

Panama:
Carlos Lee

Mexico:
Esteban Loaiza

Japan:
Shingo Takatsu

WinningUgly,

Good catch on Alomar and Valentin. Puerto Rico is a part of the United States making both of them American Citizens.

kittle42
05-03-2004, 12:10 AM
Farmer really needs to cut out the all-too-frequent American rah rah stuff. I also am getting tired of hearing about his trips to Sunday masses with Rooney.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-03-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
Farmer really needs to cut out the all-too-frequent American rah rah stuff. I also am getting tired of hearing about his trips to Sunday masses with Rooney.

What's wrong with that? this is all part of his story telling mode or whatever, maybe he can tone down the patriotism a bit but i enjoy his stories. They usually have a funny point or some good baseball anecdote.

As far as the canada talk goes i don't trust any country where you can put mayonase on your freedom fries

Jeremy
05-03-2004, 12:20 AM
Canada's national anthem does sound a lot better than ours.

Have you guys ever seen a Montreal Canadians home game when they play the US National Anthem? Those fans boo the US anthem like it was the plague. That's classless. I love Canada but I hate the Province of Quebec, I hate the French.

elrod
05-03-2004, 12:26 AM
Ed Farmer is a fool. I don't really care what an announcer's politics are but I don't need to hear him slip it in every time he has a chance. His comments were absolutely political in nature - he does not like Canada, probably for its recent foreign policy decisions vis-a-vis the US and Iraq. That's his prerogative. But it's entirely inappopriate for him to blurt it out in a baseball broadcast. I'm a very political person but I come to baseball to get away from discussions of politics. I don't care about anybody's ideology or party affiliation when I'm watching the White Sox - I just know that I'm a part of a community of White Sox fans. It ruins it for somebody to start creeping their political views into the nicely apolitical baseball world, whether I agree with their views or not. The only exception would be if the politics affected baseball itself - like commenting on Bush's statements about steroids, or Congress' deliberations on the anti-trust exemption. That's appropriate but no more. I'm sick of Ed Farmer and this is a big reason why.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-03-2004, 12:30 AM
i guess if i don't like what someone has to say i don't complain, or fuss about it... i just ignore it. very simply and cuts down on conflict.

elrod
05-03-2004, 12:39 AM
i guess if i don't like what someone has to say i don't complain, or fuss about it... i just ignore it. very simply and cuts down on conflict.

Fair enough. But ignoring annoying comments takes energy that I shouldn't have to expend while llistening to a Sox game. And while there are plenty of other things I ignore with much less energy - like advertisements for Rick Peterson's plumbing systems - political comments are harder to ignore. Surely I'm not alone here. That's why I think sports broadcasting etiquette requires broadcasters to steer clear of politics on the air. Ed Farmer routinely violates this and it drives me crazy.

jeremyb1
05-03-2004, 12:41 AM
I hate the fact that Farmer gets away with saying stuff like this under the guise of patriotism (when its in fact nationalism) as though that indicates there is no political relevance and it is perfectly acceptable to discussing during a baseball broadcast.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-03-2004, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by elrod
Fair enough. But ignoring annoying comments takes energy that I shouldn't have to expend while llistening to a Sox game. And while there are plenty of other things I ignore with much less energy - like advertisements for Rick Peterson's plumbing systems - political comments are harder to ignore. Surely I'm not alone here. That's why I think sports broadcasting etiquette requires broadcasters to steer clear of politics on the air. Ed Farmer routinely violates this and it drives me crazy.

Fair enough. Though i think some other people mentioned that he was merely trying to educate the proper action when honoring other countries. I don't know the rule but to me it seems you place your hand over your heart only for your country. Stand respectfully for others. The moral is...
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Whitesox029
05-03-2004, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
Farmer really needs to cut out the all-too-frequent American rah rah stuff. I also am getting tired of hearing about his trips to Sunday masses with Rooney.
First I don't consider this "American rah-rah" stuff..it was just an unthinking comment like when Bono swears on live TV.
Second, there is nothing wrong with "American rah-rah" stuff, as you put it. We live in this country and we are supposed to support it and respect its symbols even if we do not agree with what it does. Liberals rant and rave about how we're not supposed to be in Iraq and they go around badmouthing our country when in reality it is the principles of that very country that give them the right to do just that and it's just a matter of hours, possibly minutes before this thread gets moved to the Parking Lot. That was a run-on sentence, It's 20 after 1 am, I'm tired, and I'm going to bed.

In a nutshell: You've got your freedom of speech, but for the love of mike, don't go overboard with it.

kittle42
05-03-2004, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
In a nutshell: You've got your freedom of speech, but for the love of mike, don't go overboard with it.

That is the point. Someone else also mentioned that they see baseball as kind of an escape from reality. It would be nice to get to listen to a game without having to be reminded of the crap I see on the front of newspapers every day.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by JohnBasedowYoda
What's wrong with that? this is all part of his story telling mode or whatever, maybe he can tone down the patriotism a bit but i enjoy his stories. They usually have a funny point or some good baseball anecdote.

As far as the canada talk goes i don't trust any country where you can put mayonase on your freedom fries

:D: ....that reminded me of a funny joke I heard...

Why not replace the word French with "freedom" always?

freedom bread
freedom dressing
freedom toast
freedom tickler..........

A.T. Money
05-03-2004, 09:28 AM
I always thought Farmer was always a weirdo, in everything. The guy just talks like a dork. This doesn't surprise me.

samram
05-03-2004, 09:59 AM
Why is the anthem sung at baseball games anyway? I don't think a baseball game is a particularly patriotic event, nor is any other sporting event. If it wasn't sung, we wouldn't have to worry about situations like this, or the Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf situation a few years ago, or the situation in Canada where the US anthem is booed (especially in Montreal) almost every night. As several posters have said, sporting events should not be a stage for politics.

Jerko
05-03-2004, 10:01 AM
Someone ought to tell Farmer that the PA announcer gave the old "please remove your hats" speech BEFORE the Canadian anthem. People just automatically hold their hats over their hearts when they take them off for an anthem, it wasn't anything anti-American Farmer. If if bothers you so much, tell the White Sox to hold off on asking us to remove our hats until O Canada is over then. Oh well, no more Canadian teams are coming in this year so maybe Farmer will get over it by 2005.

john2499
05-03-2004, 10:25 AM
Why do those arrogant Canadians have an anthem anyway? I mean, now the "other 50 states" will want one.

nasox
05-03-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by samram
Why is the anthem sung at baseball games anyway? I don't think a baseball game is a particularly patriotic event, nor is any other sporting event. If it wasn't sung, we wouldn't have to worry about situations like this, or the Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf situation a few years ago, or the situation in Canada where the US anthem is booed (especially in Montreal) almost every night. As several posters have said, sporting events should not be a stage for politics.

Its tradition, plain and simple. The outrage over a team not singing the anthem would be so huge that nobody would risk it if they felt like you.

The Critic
05-03-2004, 10:40 AM
Farmer strikes me as a weird guy.
He rambles about the oddest topics.
The thing that bugs me most about him, though, is baseball-related. It's his flat, boring, deadpan delivery when he does play-by-play. It completely reminds me of "Major League" when the analyst has to take over for Harry Doyle when Doyle passes out drunk.
"..............fly ball........................caught.............."

elrod
05-03-2004, 10:48 AM
I'm not saying that Farmer should be legally prohibited from ranting about whatever he wants to. Of course I believe in freedom of speech. I just think there are situations where etiquette requires one to leave political commentary out. Like work or sporting events. As I said before, watching the White Sox is my time for escape from reality.

As for Farmer just trying to instruct people in proper military flag-saluting etiquette, I'm a little skeptical. I suspect that Farmer doesn't even realize when he's making politicized comments until somebody calls him on it. Perhaps he's most guilty of bad judgment, then. Not every White Sox listener is a conservative, Catholic Republican like him and perhaps he doesn't realize that dropping comments about the homily at Mass or the appropriate way to not salute the Canadian anthem brings issues into the broadcast that don't belong. Because I don't think Farmer even realizes what he's doing, he should go.

Paulwny
05-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by elrod
he does not like Canada, I'm sick of Ed Farmer and this is a big reason why.

I doubt Farmer has political reasons for disliking Canada. Since he's been broadcasting sox games he always complained about going to Toronto. I agree, I'm also sick of Farmer.

JorgeFabregas
05-03-2004, 11:36 AM
He is pretty young for a curmudgeon. Within the last couple of years I've also heard him complain about men wearing earrings. :?:

He also seems relentless in his defense of Bud Selig recently. Bizarre.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 11:42 AM
Sadly, this is a black mark on the Sox franchise that shouldn't be tolerated. I love Farmer, but this is intolerable. If I were JR, or even Bud Selig, I'd suspend him without pay for 30 days and put him on official PUBLIC notice. This can not be tolerated.

ma_deuce
05-03-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Sadly, this is a black mark on the Sox franchise that shouldn't be tolerated. I love Farmer, but this is intolerable. If I were JR, or even Bud Selig, I'd suspend him without pay for 30 days and put him on official PUBLIC notice. This can not be tolerated.

Whoa! Hey, I thought it was stupid to say but it wasn't something that merits suspension. The guy has a right to his opinion (no matter how dumb it is). He didn't say that the Sox should not acknowledge the Canadian National Anthem. He just didn't think they should cover their hearts for it.

Its stupid (as are most of things Farmer talks about), but IMO its not insulting.

Deuce

TDog
05-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by samram
Why is the anthem sung at baseball games anyway? I don't think a baseball game is a particularly patriotic event, nor is any other sporting event. If it wasn't sung, we wouldn't have to worry about situations like this, or the Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf situation a few years ago, or the situation in Canada where the US anthem is booed (especially in Montreal) almost every night. As several posters have said, sporting events should not be a stage for politics.

The tradition of singing "The Star Spangle Banner" before ballgames started during World War I, before the country even had an official national anthem. It was meant as a message of support for the country's war effort at a time when some people questioned why the sport wasn't being shut down in a time of national crisis. Once the practice started, apparently it would have seemed unpatriotic or disrespectful to stop it.

Baby Fisk
05-03-2004, 12:09 PM
As one of the Canucks on WSI, no offense taken. But I'm changing my sig as a tribute to Mr. Farmer....

John Diefenbaker was our Kennedy-era prime minister (1957-1963). He was also quite deranged.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
Whoa! Hey, I thought it was stupid to say but it wasn't something that merits suspension. The guy has a right to his opinion (no matter how dumb it is). He didn't say that the Sox should not acknowledge the Canadian National Anthem. He just didn't think they should cover their hearts for it.

Its stupid (as are most of things Farmer talks about), but IMO its not insulting.

Deuce


Duece, if a player who is not an american, decided to not acknowledge the Star Spangled Banner, how long do you think that would be tolerated? Remember Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (AKA Chris Jackson)? The season he decided to turn his back on the national anthem at games was his last season in an NBA jersey. He was cut immediately thereafter. OK - maybe legally he can't be suspended (I don't know enough about labor/employment law to say. But it makes the game look bad, it makes the WhiteSox franchise look bad, and it makes the Sox players/fans look bad.

zamboni
05-03-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by adsit
Not trying to defend Farmer, for my jaw hit the floor when I heard this as well, but I understood what he was trying to say.

He was tripped up over the symbolism not of players standing for respect (noting, at one point, that this was fine), but of them holding their caps across their chest, the "hand on heart in allegiance" that is the loosely adopted civilian equivalent of the military salute. A subtle, albeit weird, distinction.

He is of the opinion that you can show allegiance but to one country. Technically, he is right. If you follow the cue of military honor details, accompanying the President for welcoming ceremonies of foreign leaders, you'll see they stand at attention for respect, but US soldiers salute neither foreign anthems or flags.

Okay, fine, I got that. But it's crackpot-y and weird to hold a professional sports team to military conventions, especially on the official team broadcast. As PHG points out, not too many pro baseball players are Canadian. But a good number of them are foreign citizens. Would we advocate those non-American guys smokin' and jokin', or staying in the dugout, during the American anthem? Of course not. Yet that's the logical progression of Farmer's "argument," that respect to the American flag/anthem is the exclusive privilege of American citizens.


Actually, military members are supposed to render the same customs and curtosies to our allies anthems as we do for ours. I'm in the USAF stationed in Italy and at the end of each day they play both the Italian and American anthems and we are required to salute both of them. It's not a matter of allegiance, it's a matter of respect.

Mammoo
05-03-2004, 02:48 PM
Is their a bigger idiot in broadcasting than Ed Farmer???

adsit
05-03-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by zamboni
Actually, military members are supposed to render the same customs and curtosies to our allies anthems as we do for ours. I'm in the USAF stationed in Italy and at the end of each day they play both the Italian and American anthems and we are required to salute both of them. It's not a matter of allegiance, it's a matter of respect.

I suppose if the Italians are granting us use of military bases on their soil, we'd better salute their flag. Seems the least we could do. That seems reasonable to me.

Was it always thus, or did this custom evolve in recent military history?

One thing for sure with this news... it's even less of an issue in my mind than it was before... and Farmer looks like more of a goof for bringing it up.

By the way, welcome to WSI...

pudge
05-03-2004, 03:39 PM
Thanks for starting this thread PHG, I always wondered what people thought of Farmer - he seems to fly under the radar somehow. I personally cannot stand him, and it's a huge reason why I NEVER listened to Sox radio broadcasts when living in Chicago. Which is too bad, because Rooney is decent.

Viva Magglio
05-03-2004, 03:44 PM
If the White Sox move to the Score in 2006, I hope they take John Rooney with them but leave Ed Farmer behind. Farmer has become increasingly preachy to the point of annoyance. I admit, however, that I have a chip on my shoulder with regard to Farmer because of something that happened at SoxFest 2002.

The week prior to that SoxFest, the White Sox invited fans to fax questions to them which would be addressed at SoxFest. We had to leave our name which was fine with me. If you recall from the 2001 season, a number of our pitchers developed torn labrum problems plus pitchers in previous years developed sustained injuries ending their careers prematurely after they left the Sox (i.e., Jack McDowell and Alex Fernandez). With that in mind, I posed a question about whether our pitching regimen should be examined to determine if it caused these problems.

Then the forum at which these questions are read takes place. Farmer is moderating the forum, and he reads my question. I forget who else was at the forum at that time. After he read my question, he got very defensive and proceeded to basically bust my balls in front of the whole room for questioning our pitching regimen. I tried to respond to what Farmer said, but he just wouldn't listen to me. I cannot remember how the others in the room reacted because I was just so pissed at Farmer for what he did.

I have mentioned a number of times how I think Farmer mentions Notre Dame too much and gets into supporting the troops too much. Rooting for ND and supporting the troops are each fine in and of themselves, but telling the listeners to do that game-in-and-game-out when it's his job to analyze what is happening on the baseball field is wrong. The man just gets too preachy.

Also, there was another time Farmer seemed to get under Mágglio Ordóńez's skin during a pregame interview. Grobber33 can verify this. Farmer said "Maggs" to good old No. 30 during the interview, and Mágglio told Farmer on the air that he didn't like being called "Maggs." That actualy prompted me at the time to change my handle from "Maggs30" to "ˇViva Mágglio!" Weeks later, when Les interviewed Mágglio, Mágglio told the Grobber that "Maggs" did not bother him. To me, that was a sign that Mágglio, let's say, has a unique perspective of Farmer.

Cubbiesuck13
05-03-2004, 03:50 PM
I like to listen to the both of them, personally.

In refference to military custums and courtesy, no matter where we are, the US anthem is played first and then the other countries on ships. I don't know about the USAF, but the USN does not salute another countries flag or anthems. We stand at attention, but do not salute. It is the same when a military member is in civilian clothes, you stand at attention when the US anthem is played and not with your hand over your heart. But I really don' t think that it matters to most.

Railsplitter
05-03-2004, 08:52 PM
Just stand politely. At least don't boo like some idiotic New Yorkers did once when they Yankees and Jays were in a pennant battle.

Whitesox029
05-03-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Is their a bigger idiot in broadcasting than Ed Farmer???
Yes, Ron Santo.

Brian26
05-03-2004, 09:17 PM
I also caught this yesterday during the broadcast. As a lot of other people here were, I was blown away. It was one of the stupidest diatribes I've ever heard. I usually support Ed and generally enjoy his dry wit, but he was way out of line for obvious reasons- a.) most of the players on the Blue Jays aren't from Canada b.) many of the players on the White Sox aren't even from America c.) the anthems are more for the fans than the players.