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kermittheefrog
05-02-2004, 03:03 AM
Frank Thomas is currently sporting a .500 OBP. Unless you are Barry Bonds (or I guess Adam Dunn these days) it doesn't get better than that.

pinwheels3530
05-02-2004, 03:54 AM
The Big Hurt is the best hitter in White Sox history I am really starting to appreciate more and more what he has done in the game of baseball the last 15 years.

gosox41
05-02-2004, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
The Big Hurt is the best hitter in White Sox history I am really starting to appreciate more and more what he has done in the game of baseball the last 15 years.

I agree. When he's not in the line up, the team carries a different look offensive. Sure they still may produce like the did against the Yankees (when Gload was on a hot streak that wasn't going to continue) but overall Frank is more valuable then most peole give him credit for:

1. He's a power threat
2. Last I checked he still sees the most pitches per AB which helps theteam about by seeing a pitchers arsenal and also helps wear down the pitcher
3. His walks allow Magglio to see better pitches to hit. Frank's already got 23 BB's this season. No reason he can't get 150-160 this year. And he's got his average back up.

Most people I talk to see Frank as a whiny complainer. He has his moments, but I believe I'd put up with a player's distractions (as long as he's not breaking the law or hurting anyoone) for good production.


Bob

Deadguy
05-02-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Frank Thomas is currently sporting a .500 OBP. Unless you are Barry Bonds (or I guess Adam Dunn these days) it doesn't get better than that.

With his power, as long as he keeps his average above .300, he could very well lead the league in OPS. The only guys ahead of him right now are more than likely not going to keep up their current paces (Ford, Posada, Beltran, Uribe), since historically, they've never come close to what they are doing now. The only guys in the league with his power and on base ability are Giambi, Delgado, and Ramirez.

The only thing hodling him back is his production on the road, which really suffers when he's the DH. It's no surprise that he got off to a rough start with 9 of the first 12 games being road games, and he finally started to hit once we got this extended homestand.

row18
05-02-2004, 10:30 AM
I attended the dh on saturday, all Frank's ab was hard shots, down the line, which shows he's seeing the ball very well. Also his walk in the tenth was HUGE, becuase it moved Maggs into scoring position to allow the sac bunt so Maggs can move into third easily! Now that's want a impact player does.

kevingrt
05-02-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by row18
I attended the dh on saturday, all Frank's ab was hard shots, down the line, which shows he's seeing the ball very well. Also his walk in the tenth was HUGE, becuase it moved Maggs into scoring position to allow the sac bunt so Maggs can move into third easily! Now that's want a impact player does.

I agree that he is seeing the ball better and every hit was a shot down the line, and the like 12 pitch was ginormous, but does anyone want to see the Frank of old with those opposite field HR and broken bat doubles. Man I loved seeing Frank in '93-'00.... what a great player to watch. I don't think he'll ever get back to that pinnacle of his career, but a .500 OBP ain't bad at all! :)

johnny_mostil
05-02-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by row18
I attended the dh on saturday, all Frank's ab was hard shots, down the line, which shows he's seeing the ball very well.

He's also no longer playing for a manager he openly despises and who despised him.

faneidde
05-02-2004, 02:13 PM
I don't see why teams still pitch around Frank so much. I know Carlos is struggling right now and Frank does have the best knowledge of the strike zone in the AL, but he still walks on 4 or 5 pitches a lot. I'm glad Frank is doing great again this year. You guys think the local or national media will pick up on this .500 OBP?

MRKARNO
05-02-2004, 02:23 PM
The funny thing is that I believe his swing is a bit off right now. He's been hitting a ton of ground balls the last few games and he usually leads the league in most fly balls vs ground balls. Maybe he'll have a 2000-esque year in the 4 spot...or if we're lucky, a 1994-esque year

Lip Man 1
05-02-2004, 08:41 PM
The national media has picked up on Frank's OBP. It was the point of discussion on Sunday's Baseball Tonight show on ESPN.

I'm only paraphrasing the discussion and I may have some of it wrong so I suggest watching the replay later tonight.

The point was how valuable is OBP. John Kruk and Harold Reynolds debated the issue using the top five OBP's in MLB. (Thomas is at .495 by the way not .500)

Reynold's point is that the entire stat is being misused by statistical people who are forgetting how it is intertwined with the fabric of the game. As an example he pointed out Thomas OBP. He said it's terriffic but asked how many runs is Frank scoring. He said based on runs scored to at bats, Frank is scoring once every five times he gets on base. Reynolds said that is not good and said this indicates other problems with the Sox hitters. He looks at the stat as part of what the team does.

He said if he was a pitcher of course he's going to walk Thomas as opposed to giving him something to hit out of the park. That he'd rather face the guys who hit behind Thomas and that they are not doing their jobs.

He said that doesn't dimish what Frank has done but in his opinion the bottom line is wins. He said Frank is getting on base but isn't scoring and that before the statistical folks start postering how great a stat this is they have to understand baseball more and not just single things out.

Again I suggest watching the replay for yourself. Chris Berman hosts.

Lip

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
The Big Hurt is the best hitter in White Sox history I am really starting to appreciate more and more what he has done in the game of baseball the last 15 years.

That about somes up the white sox fan right there. Hey, it only took us 15 years to appreciate how great he is.

Dadawg_77
05-02-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The national media has picked up on Frank's OBP. It was the point of discussion on Sunday's Baseball Tonight show on ESPN.

I'm only paraphrasing the discussion and I may have some of it wrong so I suggest watching the replay later tonight.

The point was how valuable is OBP. John Kruk and Harold Reynolds debated the issue using the top five OBP's in MLB. (Thomas is at .495 by the way not .500)

Reynold's point is that the entire stat is being misused by statistical people who are forgetting how it is intertwined with the fabric of the game. As an example he pointed out Thomas OBP. He said it's terriffic but asked how many runs is Frank scoring. He said based on runs scored to at bats, Frank is scoring once every five times he gets on base. Reynolds said that is not good and said this indicates other problems with the Sox hitters. He looks at the stat as part of what the team does.

He said if he was a pitcher of course he's going to walk Thomas as opposed to giving him something to hit out of the park. That he'd rather face the guys who hit behind Thomas and that they are not doing their jobs.

He said that doesn't dimish what Frank has done but in his opinion the bottom line is wins. He said Frank is getting on base but isn't scoring and that before the statistical folks start postering how great a stat this is they have to understand baseball more and not just single things out.

Again I suggest watching the replay for yourself. Chris Berman hosts.

Lip

Reyolds is a luddite when t comes to new concepts in baseball. Come on now he is saying Frank isn't that valuable because of others failings? Please. Can Baseball Tonight put Neyer on as host?

RKMeibalane
05-02-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The national media has picked up on Frank's OBP. It was the point of discussion on Sunday's Baseball Tonight show on ESPN.

I'm only paraphrasing the discussion and I may have some of it wrong so I suggest watching the replay later tonight.

The point was how valuable is OBP. John Kruk and Harold Reynolds debated the issue using the top five OBP's in MLB. (Thomas is at .495 by the way not .500)

Reynold's point is that the entire stat is being misused by statistical people who are forgetting how it is intertwined with the fabric of the game. As an example he pointed out Thomas OBP. He said it's terriffic but asked how many runs is Frank scoring. He said based on runs scored to at bats, Frank is scoring once every five times he gets on base. Reynolds said that is not good and said this indicates other problems with the Sox hitters. He looks at the stat as part of what the team does.

He said if he was a pitcher of course he's going to walk Thomas as opposed to giving him something to hit out of the park. That he'd rather face the guys who hit behind Thomas and that they are not doing their jobs.

He said that doesn't dimish what Frank has done but in his opinion the bottom line is wins. He said Frank is getting on base but isn't scoring and that before the statistical folks start postering how great a stat this is they have to understand baseball more and not just single things out.

Again I suggest watching the replay for yourself. Chris Berman hosts.

Lip

Believe it or not, I actually agree with Reynolds on this one. Frank is doing a great job getting on base, whether it's because of a walk or a base hit. However, as I pointed out yesterday when I ripped into Carlos, the guys behind Thomas in the batting order aren't getting it done. Crede has started to swing the bat better, but Konerko has cooled off somewhat after a good start, and Lee has been terrible. Even if Frank gets on base half the time, it's not going to matter unless the guys behind him do their part. So far, that's not happening.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Reyolds is a luddite when t comes to new concepts in baseball. Come on now he is saying Frank isn't that valuable because of others failings? Please. Can Baseball Tonight put Neyer on as host?

Reynolds is an idiot, but he has a point here. It's not that Frank is less valuable, but rather that because other hitters aren't getting the job done, it's almost as though Frank getting on base doesn't matter in the real scheme of things. There are a number of Sox hitters who aren't pulling their weight right now, and one of them happens to be hitting directly behind Frank in the batting order.

Dadawg_77
05-02-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Reynolds is an idiot, but he has a point here. It's not that Frank is less valuable, but rather that because other hitters aren't getting the job done, it's almost as though Frank getting on base doesn't matter in the real scheme of things. There are a number of Sox hitters who aren't pulling their weight right now, and one of them happens to be hitting directly behind Frank in the batting order.

So if the guys behind Frank got on more, then Frank's OPB would be more valuable. But since the guys behind Frank lack good OPB, then Frank's OBP isn't that valuable. There is a major hole in that argument. He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2004, 08:57 PM
Reynolds proves once again what a dope he truly is. Why do you guys waste time watching that garbage on ESPN?

If Reynolds wants to whine about Frank not scoring more runs, why doesn't he rip Lee and Konerko for not driving him in? It's not like Frank can score himself short of hitting a homerun every freaking at-bat.

Nope, in the delusional world Harold Reynolds lives in, it's the baserunner's fault he never scores. What an imbecile.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
So if the guys behind Frank got on more, then Frank's OPB would be more valuable. But since the guys behind Frank lack good OPB, then Frank's OBP isn't that valuable. There is a major hole in that argument. He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable.

I agree that there are holes in Reynolds' argument. I also believe, however, that Frank's OBP is somehwat misleading, because of the guys hitting behind him. For the record, I am extremely pleased with the job Frank is doing this season, but I also think that Frank's numbers haven't always translated into team success early this season. It's not Frank's fault the guys behind him aren't getting it done, but as long as he continues to be left stranded at first base, the Sox are going to be stuck in neutral.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Reynolds proves once again what a dope he truly is. Why do you guys waste time watching that garbage on ESPN?

If Reynolds wants to whine about Frank not scoring more runs, why doesn't he rip Lee and Konerko for not driving him in? It's not like Frank can score himself short of hitting a homerun every freaking at-bat.

Nope, in the delusional world Harold Reynolds lives in, it's the baserunner's fault he never scores. What an imbecile.

IIRC, there were a number of WSI posters who were saying the same thing a year ago, when the Sox offense was sputtering because of Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
So if the guys behind Frank got on more, then Frank's OPB would be more valuable. But since the guys behind Frank lack good OPB, then Frank's OBP isn't that valuable. There is a major hole in that argument. He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable.

If he was saying Thomas isn't worth nothin' because he walks so much and he dies on the bases becuase no one drives him in, then that would be stupid. But the reality is a lot of his walks turn into nothing. That's not Frank's fault, and he's gonna walk 100 times no matter where he hits, nor should he stop taking walks and put extra pressure on himself to hit homers. We'll just have to be patient for Lee to start hitting. He will.

MRKARNO
05-02-2004, 09:06 PM
I dont think Reynolds was trying to discredit Thomas somehow based on the overview of what he said, but it certainly sounds like it came off that way. He was trying to rip on Lee and Konerko, but he shouldnt have made it the center of his comment, but just as a side comment. OBP is one of the most important statistics in baseball, especially when you're hitting .300+ as a part of that .500 OBP. Thomas is one of the most valuable hitters in the league at this point.

Lip Man 1
05-02-2004, 11:10 PM
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

JRIG
05-02-2004, 11:32 PM
I just watched it to make sure I didn't misrepresent Reynolds.

That may be the worst non-Joe Morgan anaysis I have ever heard. Highlight for me...comparing the number of runs Jimmy Rollins scored last year (who batted 2nd in the lineup) with the number of runs Jason Varitek scored last year (who batted ninth).

Don't worry Frank. I still love your OBP. And does this mean Barry Bonds' OBP is overrated too because he's only scored 23 of the 70 times he's been on base? I guess a .700 OBP just doesn't cut it when you're not able to magically cause yourself to score a run.

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

I just saw this and Reynolds and Kruk were saying they'd rather see guys like Frank and Giambi swinging the bat instead of, as he remembers when he was with us, Frank taking a fastball down the middle 0-1, and end up walking. That's just stupid, plain and simple. I mean who's to say they're gonna do something with that first pitch? Maybe they pop it up. Just because it's a fastball doesn't mean it's saying "please, hit me far." Guys that do swing first pitch fastball are not in the company of Thomas, Giambi, Bonds, and all the greats.

JRIG
05-02-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I just saw this and Reynolds and Kruk were saying they'd rather see guys like Frank and Giambi swinging the bat instead of, as he remembers when he was with us, Frank taking a fastball down the middle 0-1, and end up walking. That's just stupid, plain and simple. I mean who's to say they're gonna do something with that first pitch? Maybe they pop it up. Just because it's a fastball doesn't mean it's saying "please, hit me far." Guys that do swing first pitch fastball are not in the company of Thomas, Giambi, Bonds, and all the greats.

5 minutes after Kruk had gotten done explaining how hard it is to hit a fastball.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
5 minutes after Kruk had gotten done explaining how hard it is to hit a fastball.

:D: :D: :D: :D: :D: :D: :D: :)

Deadguy
05-03-2004, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Believe it or not, I actually agree with Reynolds on this one. Frank is doing a great job getting on base, whether it's because of a walk or a base hit. However, as I pointed out yesterday when I ripped into Carlos, the guys behind Thomas in the batting order aren't getting it done. Crede has started to swing the bat better, but Konerko has cooled off somewhat after a good start, and Lee has been terrible. Even if Frank gets on base half the time, it's not going to matter unless the guys behind him do their part. So far, that's not happening.

This is true. This is basically the reasoning that Thomas used last August when he started swinging for the fences. He basically said that his high OBP wasn't resulting in Runs Scored, so he was going to try and be more aggressive and drive others in.

I don't necessarilly agree with this. A walk may end up turning a 1-2-3 inning into a 5 run inning. You can't measure the value of a walk by the run scored of an individual player. It's just like an error that could turn a 1-2-3 inning into 5 run inning. The difference between making an out and getting on base could be the difference between a win and a loss, and having a guy who gets on base 45% of the time he comes to the plate completely changes everything.

Deadguy
05-03-2004, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

Absolute garbage.

Just look at the runs scored totals of guys like Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell, who are willing to take walks, and then compare it to selfish, overrated free swingers like Garrett Anderson and Juan Gonzalez. Garrett Anderson, who typically walks around 30 times a year HAS NEVER SCORED a 100 runs in a season, while Juan Gonzalez "(who has nearly 1000 less walks than Frank) has only done it 3 times.

Why does John Kruk think Frank was taking those pitches down the middle? Does he think Frank was thinking that walks and OBP are the way to get big money contracts? Is that what gets players endorsement deals or cameos on stupid sit coms?

John Mcgraw must be spinning in his grave.

kermittheefrog
05-03-2004, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

Reynolds is completely missing the issue here. The issue isn't that OBP is overrated by statheads because Frank Thomas doesn't score often enough. The idea behind OBP isn't to put one great hitter with a great OBP in the middle of a lineup of mediocre hitters with mediocre OBPs. The idea is OBP is important because if you have a high OBP you aren't making outs and you're putting runners on base that could potentially score. The guys behind Frank making the outs don't make Frank getting on base less valuable, it means the guys making outs aren't very valuable themselves and possibly should be replaced.

The issue here is that everything can't fall upon the shoulders of the best player on a team. When it comes down to it everyone has to do their jobs. You need more than just one good hitter, you need a core of them. Six or seven guys who get on base at a nice clip. Look at the Giants. Barry Bonds may have just had the best month ever, at least the best month in the last 30 years. Where did it get them? Not very far because he's surrounded by poor players. I like Ray Durham but he shouldn't be the second best hitter in your lineup. If you are going to say Barry Bonds' needs to do something better than get on base 70% of the time or Frank Thomas needs to do better than getting on base 50% of the time, you're missing the point entirely. Why not hold the other hitters in the lineup responsible for failing? Why attack the guy who is clearly playing well?

And as much as you may have enjoyed correcting me Lip, when I made my post Thomas' OBP was in fact at .500. It just happens that baseball games are played everyday and after Sunday's game he dipped just below the 50% mark.

SEALgep
05-03-2004, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I just saw this and Reynolds and Kruk were saying they'd rather see guys like Frank and Giambi swinging the bat instead of, as he remembers when he was with us, Frank taking a fastball down the middle 0-1, and end up walking. That's just stupid, plain and simple. I mean who's to say they're gonna do something with that first pitch? Maybe they pop it up. Just because it's a fastball doesn't mean it's saying "please, hit me far." Guys that do swing first pitch fastball are not in the company of Thomas, Giambi, Bonds, and all the greats. Not only that, but how many times have we walked guys and they scored that inning. Seems like all the time. Maybe we don't always drive him in when he walks, but at least we're threatening with a base runner. I love guys getting on anyway they can and put the pressure on the defense. And another thing, you can't just change a guy's approach at the plate. If Thomas likes to wait for his pitch, then let him. Sometimes it's better to take a walk and force pitchers to throw strikes. That carries over to your at bats later as to how the pitcher pitches him. But if he's swinging in the dirt or at just okay pitches, he might become less effective instead of more. Keep doing what you're doing Frank.

gosox41
05-03-2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The national media has picked up on Frank's OBP. It was the point of discussion on Sunday's Baseball Tonight show on ESPN.

I'm only paraphrasing the discussion and I may have some of it wrong so I suggest watching the replay later tonight.

The point was how valuable is OBP. John Kruk and Harold Reynolds debated the issue using the top five OBP's in MLB. (Thomas is at .495 by the way not .500)

Reynold's point is that the entire stat is being misused by statistical people who are forgetting how it is intertwined with the fabric of the game. As an example he pointed out Thomas OBP. He said it's terriffic but asked how many runs is Frank scoring. He said based on runs scored to at bats, Frank is scoring once every five times he gets on base. Reynolds said that is not good and said this indicates other problems with the Sox hitters. He looks at the stat as part of what the team does.

He said if he was a pitcher of course he's going to walk Thomas as opposed to giving him something to hit out of the park. That he'd rather face the guys who hit behind Thomas and that they are not doing their jobs.

He said that doesn't dimish what Frank has done but in his opinion the bottom line is wins. He said Frank is getting on base but isn't scoring and that before the statistical folks start postering how great a stat this is they have to understand baseball more and not just single things out.

Again I suggest watching the replay for yourself. Chris Berman hosts.

Lip

Reynolds is an idiot. He is essentially overrating Frank's numbers because of something he can't control in scoring runs. It's not Frank's fault the hitters behind him aren't doing their job more. Frank is doing what he is supposed to be doing and taking that .500OBP or whatever it is out of this line up and replacing it with Russ Gload isn't going to help the team score more runs over time.


Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2004, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

Did Reynolds invoke the names of Carlos Lee or Paul Konerko even one time during his anti-Frank diatribe? It seems his target was all the people who (unlike Reynolds) recognize what a tremendous hitter Frank Thomas truly is. Reynolds is inventing excuses for why he doesn't believe it.

If Reynolds had half a brain, he would be ripping Lee and Konerko for giving every A.L. pitcher the perfect excuse for not pitching to Frank Thomas. In fact, Reynolds even admits this is exactly what is going on. But instead of ripping on the guys who are at fault (Konerko and Lee), he tears down Frank Thomas. Genius... absolute genius...

Hey, I can get on TV and spout nonsense like this, too. One long, tirade against statgeeks is all it was... and he came off as the fool. Who's surprised?

Go right ahead trying to defend this guy. He gives you absolutely *nothing* to work with.

samram
05-03-2004, 08:09 AM
HR used bad examples. Varitek batted sixth or seventh last year- how many runs will the 7-9 hitters drive in, even in that offense? However, Varitek, by getting on base, was allowing the order to turn over faster and get the guys at the top of the line-up more at-bats during a game.

If he really wanted to illustrate his point successfully, he should have highlighted Bonds because he is on base constantly with basically no protection. However, to listen to his and Kruk's analysis of the situation, Bonds should be swinging at anything near the plate, showing no selectivity at all, because he is the best run producer in the line-up. I think that is a great way to let a pitcher off the hook. In Frank's situation, the three normal guys in front of him (Willie, Jose and Mags) are not high OBP guys, so he doesn't always have the chance to drive someone in with a hit, he has to be the one to get on base himself and hope Carlos or PK can drive him in. Plus, his ABs drive up pitch counts, which gets the bullpen in the game earlier, and that's a positive because bullpens these days are usually pretty bad.

Dadawg_77
05-03-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip

Exactly what I said, Reynold is making the asinine argument that OPB is overrated because getting on base doesn't mean you will score. What he fails to realize, which doesn't surprise me, that if the hitters behind Frank got on base more, Frank would score more. Just because Konerko and Lee aren't driving in Frank doesn't mean Frank getting on base in position to score is any less valuable. It mean maybe Konerko and Lee need to pick up their production or be replaced with people who can get the job done.

batmanZoSo
05-03-2004, 11:02 AM
Reynolds and Kruk are just mad that they couldn't work the count when they played.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by faneidde
I don't see why teams still pitch around Frank so much. I know Carlos is struggling right now and Frank does have the best knowledge of the strike zone in the AL, but he still walks on 4 or 5 pitches a lot. I'm glad Frank is doing great again this year. You guys think the local or national media will pick up on this .500 OBP?

They did...see my other thread on Harold Reynolds.

jabrch
05-03-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Again I suggest you watch the replay because I may have phrased things wrong.

Dawdawg says: "He is saying because you lack OBP that it isn't valuable."

Actually what I inferred from Reynolds' comments was that the stat geeks make to much of OBP. In fact he said that very thing. He said this is not the great stat some make it out to be because it only looks at one small aspect of the game. He used Thomas as an example of a guy with a great OBP, that stat folks were trumpeting but that the stat was overrated because Thomas isn't scoring more which helps his team win more games. he wasn't faulting Thomas...he was saying how improtant can this stat be if the guy can't score when he gets on base.

Lip


I agree with Lip - he was only saying that OBP alone is overrated and that there are too many people today who think it is the end-all, be-all measurement of a hitter.

OBP alone will win you games. It won't win you championships. You need a wellrounded offense to do that.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I agree with Lip - he was only saying that OBP alone is overrated and that there are too many people today who think it is the end-all, be-all measurement of a hitter.

OBP alone will win you games. It won't win you championships. You need a wellrounded offense to do that.

Fine. Then what Harold Reynolds needs to state is the plain obvious fact *everybody* agrees with: Baseball is a team sport.

Unfortunately for Reynolds, that isn't what he said. He tried *running down* the contribution Frank Thomas was making. If baseball is a team sport, Reynolds should have ripped Konerko and Lee for making the obvious strategy for dealing with Frank's bat to simply walk him.

Furthermore, if baseball is a team sport, Reynolds could also have ripped Guillen for not putting better hitters behind Frank to protect him in the line up. Or Reynolds could have ripped GM Kenny Williams for not providing Guillen with better hitters for Guillen to protect Frank's bat. Or he could rip Williams for spending all that money on two guys (Konerko and Lee) who aren't getting the job done. But rip on Frank Thomas? Give me a ****ing break!

Reynolds is a ****ing moron. The more you guys try to defend him, the more you make your own judgment look silly, too.

jeremyb1
05-03-2004, 12:42 PM
Reynolds needs to work on his math. 16 runs scored in 43 times reaching base is scoring 37% of the time. Subtract Frank's six home runs from the equation and 10/37 is still 27%.

maurice
05-03-2004, 02:11 PM
- If OBP doesn't translate into runs scored, why does Frank lead the Sox in runs scored?
- How did Frank score 100+ runs virtually every season between 1991 and 2000 (including 106 runs in only 399 ABs in the dark season of 1994)?
- Why does only one of the top ten run scorers in MLB this season have an OBP under .396?

Reynolds is making a run at Gammons' title: ESPN Village Idiot.

faneidde
05-03-2004, 02:29 PM
For the record:
Harold Reynolds .327 OBP
John Kruk .397 OBP
Frank Thomas .428 OBP

Guess its overated because you were never on, eh Harold. Oh, and do everyone a favor this year and don't pick the White Sox to win the division late in the season after trashing them all year.