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RKMeibalane
05-01-2004, 11:24 PM
I'm probably going to be harshly criticized for this, but I don't care. I've about had it with Carlos Lee. Honestly, does this man pay any attention when he's in the on-deck circle? He has Frank Thomas, one of the most patient hitters in the history of baseball, batting in front of him, yet it seems as though all Carlos does these days is swing at bad pitches and turn himself into an easy out for the opposition.

The way tonight's game ended is a perfect example. Carlos swung at exactly one pitch that I thought was worth offering at. Otherwise, he swung at two balls. I don't know what goes through his head, but he must stop doing this. Because of Carlos, the following things have happened:

1. Frank isn't seeing as many fastballs as he did last season (and even then he didn't see that many).

2. The second half of the lineup (Konerko, Crede, etc.), isn't seeing many pitches to hit, because unless Frank or Maggs is already on base, nobody else is. Carlos anchors the second half of the batting order, so he needs to learn to be more selective at the plate.

Right now, opposing pitchers are throwing Frank junk because they aren't worried about Carlos hurting them. He's too much of a free-swinger. I don't blame them. I would be doing the same thing. If Carlos can't stop doing this, he needs to be benched. Period. More than any other hitter in the lineup (save for perhaps Harris), Carlos Lee is killing the Sox offense.

illinibk
05-01-2004, 11:28 PM
I agree completely. It seems as though he has been around Guillen too long, and now as a result, there isn't a pitch he doesn't like.

soltrain21
05-01-2004, 11:31 PM
He isn't aggresive in the field at all either. I think he could atleast give it a SHOT to throw home...

batmanZoSo
05-01-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I'm probably going to be harshly criticized for this, but I don't care. I've about had it with Carlos Lee. Honestly, does this man pay any attention when he's in the on-deck circle? He has Frank Thomas, one of the most patient hitters in the history of baseball, batting in front of him, yet it seems as though all Carlos does these days is swing at bad pitches and turn himself into an easy out for the opposition.

The way tonight's game ended is a perfect example. Carlos swung at exactly one pitch that I thought was worth offering at. Otherwise, he swung at two balls. I don't know what goes through his head, but he must stop doing this. Because of Carlos, the following things have happened:

1. Frank isn't seeing as many fastballs as he did last season (and even then he didn't see that many).

2. The second half of the lineup (Konerko, Crede, etc.), isn't seeing many pitches to hit, because unless Frank or Maggs is already on base, nobody else is. Carlos anchors the second half of the batting order, so he needs to learn to be more selective at the plate.

Right now, opposing pitchers are throwing Frank junk because they aren't worried about Carlos hurting them. He's too much of a free-swinger. I don't blame them. I would be doing the same thing. If Carlos can't stop doing this, he needs to be benched. Period. More than any other hitter in the lineup (save for perhaps Harris), Carlos Lee is killing the Sox offense.

I totally agree and I hope we trade him as soon as possible. He's a waste at his salary. That at bat was just brutal to end the game. Horrible.

EDIT add-on:

Same with Konerko. 1st and third, chance to rally, fouls out on the first pitch. And on an inside fastball that wasn't gonna be a strike. People say Maggs isn't worth 14 million, neither are those two combined then.

MRKARNO
05-01-2004, 11:38 PM
I think the lineup just worked better when you had Lee, Thomas and Maggs 2-3-4. Because it gave Lee a lot better pitches to hit in front of Frank and people we're just going to walk Frank because Maggs was behind him. Ozzie will probably never change it back, but it would be better if he did. That was one thing that Manuel got right although Frank did offer to move to the 4 spot.

batmanZoSo
05-01-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I think the lineup just worked better when you had Lee, Thomas and Maggs 2-3-4. Because it gave Lee a lot better pitches to hit in front of Frank and people we're just going to walk Frank because Maggs was behind him. Ozzie will probably never change it back, but it would be better if he did. That was one thing that Manuel got right although Frank did offer to move to the 4 spot.

Either way has it's upsides. Lee isn't a number two hitter, we can't have that. I know he had a good average in that spot, but we need speed up there. And his bat to back up Frank and Maggs. If you take Lee out of the middle, you have a very top heavy lineup (literally, too lol)

voodoochile
05-01-2004, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Either way has it's upsides. Lee isn't a number two hitter, we can't have that. I know he had a good average in that spot, but we need speed up there. And his bat to back up Frank and Maggs. If you take Lee out of the middle, you have a very top heavy lineup (literally, too lol)

Lee stole 20 bases last year and led the team.

batmanZoSo
05-01-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Lee stole 20 bases last year and led the team.

So what? He's still got very average speed. He gets steals because he's got a decent sense for it, but mostly because he doesn't look like a threat.

voodoochile
05-02-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
So what? He's still got very average speed. He gets steals because he's got a decent sense for it, but mostly because he doesn't look like a threat.

You are saying that teams don't scout what he does, but what he looks like? That makes no sense to me.

Who cares WHY he is successful either. If he can steal the bases and score from second on most singles, what else do you need?

batmanZoSo
05-02-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You are saying that teams don't scout what he does, but what he looks like? That makes no sense to me.

Who cares WHY he is successful either. If he can steal the bases and score from second on most singles, what else do you need?

The most important reason to keep him behind Frank and Maggs is because they need the protection he gives. He isn't really hitting now, but who's better? The speed thing is only secondary to that.

And he's a terrible base runner. Valentin doesn't get his steals anymore, but he's ten times the base runner he is. The lineup should be Uribe, Valentin, Ordonez, Thomas, Lee.

Railsplitter
05-02-2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I totally agree and I hope we trade him as soon as possible. He's a waste at his salary. That at bat was just brutal to end the game. Horrible.

EDIT add-on:

Same with Konerko. 1st and third, chance to rally, fouls out on the first pitch. And on an inside fastball that wasn't gonna be a strike. People say Maggs isn't worth 14 million, neither are those two combined then.

Do you at least think hitting coach Greg Walker should try to work with them?

DrummerGeorgefan
05-02-2004, 11:45 AM
With the way Uribe is hitting recently, there is no need to move CLEE up to the 2 spot he had last year. Uribe, if continuing to hit the way he has, should give Maggs and Frank more pitches. Lee after those two would be most beneficial.

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 12:58 PM
I remember at this time last season...I was also really pissed at Carlos. I got mad b/c he seems like he doesn't care...always has that smirk on his face.

He is in a slump right now. You are going to love him in 3 weeks when he is hitting everything in sight.

Plus, he is a Cub killer.

chisoxmike
05-02-2004, 01:27 PM
Every player goes through slumps. Look Jeter just went 0-30. Every player does this. It's only May people!!!! Carlos will be fine.

oheeoh...magglio
05-02-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by chisoxmike
Every player goes through slumps. Look Jeter just went 0-30. Every player does this. It's only May people!!!! Carlos will be fine.

Exactly.....

Carlos has already proven he is a solid player, and he will be fine.

chisoxmike
05-02-2004, 01:30 PM
Jesus people... its only May! He's in a slump. Every player goes through them. Jeter just went 0-30. There is no need to panic. Carlos will be fine. And I dont think Kenny will trade Carlos after they just signed him on a nice contract during the offseason.

SEALgep
05-02-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by chisoxmike
Every player goes through slumps. Look Jeter just went 0-30. Every player does this. It's only May people!!!! Carlos will be fine. I agree, I thought some of his pitch selection have been poor, and it seems like he's pissed when he takes a walk. However, I think he's going to get hot once the weather warms up a little. We'll see. I know he's not a look for the walk type of hitter, and that's okay, but take it if that's what they're giving you, and don't look so pissed about it. With that said though, Carolos will be fine, and he is a pretty darn good hitter when he shows the patience up there. He's just slumping a little by his standards of play IMO.

voodoochile
05-02-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by chisoxmike
Jesus people... its only May! He's in a slump. Every player goes through them. Jeter just went 0-30. There is no need to panic. Carlos will be fine. And I dont think Kenny will trade Carlos after they just signed him on a nice contract during the offseason.

Two things...

1) You can avoid having to double post by using the http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/edit.gif button at the bottom of each post. You obviously can only edit your own posts, but it does save you from having to repost basically the same thing, which is good for you and good for the board in general

2) I agree that Carlos is in a slump and it is still early, but he has been trying to pull absolutely everything since the slump started. Last year he did the same thing and it caused him to have a prolonged slump which he broke out of when he decided to go to RF in June. I recall the game and it was reported afterwards that he actually came into the dugout and told the rest of the team, "I'm going to RF next time." He singled to RC the next time up and shortly thereafter got hot again and started to put up the numbers we all expect him to. I just don't want him to wait another month before he decides to become a complete hitter again. He is deadly when he is on, but gets our of whack when he tries to knock every ball through the gap in the light stands.

SoxFan76
05-02-2004, 01:43 PM
I still say switch Paulie and Carlos atleast until Carlos gets hot again. I know tinkering left town with Manuel, but sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to win a ballgame. And I'm afraid to throw this out there, but what does everybody think about Crede moving up in the lineup? He doesn't ground into as many DP's, and he's atleast more patient than Carlos right now. Just a thought.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2004, 01:47 PM
Personally, I feel fixing Carlos Lee's hitting troubles are as easy as putting him in the #2 hole ahead of Maggs and Frank. He figures to get plenty of fastballs from that spot and we all know he mashes that stuff.

Of course then Konerko bats immediately behind Frank, so Frank will get about 50% more walks than he is already getting. And Ozzie won't be able to put the runners in motion so much with El Caballo batting #2. Still, Ozzie ought to try *something* to get the top of our lineup started. How about a new leadoff man?

Still, anything has to be better than waiting for the second inning to get serious about creating offensive production. It's not like MLB is letting the Sox bat an "extra" tenth inning just because Ozzie wasted his first three outs to start the ballgame.

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 02:06 PM
Konerko, CLee, Crede and Valentin are the three players that get "pull" crazy on the Sox...and shockingly they are the 4 most prone to slumps. It isn't a coinsidence.

Notice when Paulie has to move a guy over. It has happened 3 or 4 times this year when somebody is on second with no out. He has hit the ball hard every time he needs to go opposite way.

idseer
05-02-2004, 02:27 PM
:chickenlittle


14 and 9.

yeah, let's change the lineup and several other things.

SoxxoS
05-02-2004, 02:30 PM
Please use the teal feature idseer-

I couldn't sense your sarcastic tone.

:D:

SoxFan76
05-02-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by idseer
:chickenlittle


14 and 9.

yeah, let's change the lineup and several other things.

But it hasn't been a pretty 14 wins. What happens when the Sox play Boston, or the Twins, or a real contendor this year? These last inning wins can't happen all year. It is good that the team has the mental ability to come back late in ballgames, but you can't rely on that all year either. The Sox need to manufacture more runs through innings 1-8 ,and not rely on getting runs in the 9th or 10th innings.

chisoxmike
05-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Two things...

Sorry Voodoo... my computer shut down on me and I didn't know my post actually post. :smile:

stillz
05-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Lee has always been streaky.. plays better when the temps are warmer. And while I liked Lee-Thomas-Ordonez better, we should at least let this lineup run into June. Still, regarding Thomas in the 4-spot.. he's had a lot of opportunities to drive in runs, and not enough to show for it. Don't get me wrongo, I love the high OBP, but opposing pitchers know Carlos is an easier out. He's not anchoring squat right now.

idseer
05-02-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
But it hasn't been a pretty 14 wins. What happens when the Sox play Boston, or the Twins, or a real contendor this year? These last inning wins can't happen all year. It is good that the team has the mental ability to come back late in ballgames, but you can't rely on that all year either. The Sox need to manufacture more runs through innings 1-8 ,and not rely on getting runs in the 9th or 10th innings.

check this out.

inn. - runs

1st - 19
2nd - 15
3rd - 10
4th - 20
5th - 20
6th - 11
7th - 11
8th - 3
9th - 13
10th - 2

this is an example of how twisted things can get. the sox came back big in 2 games in the 9th ... and are now being branded as only scoring in the 9th.

whoever said we don't score in the first inning ... WRONG!
whoever said we only score in the 8th & 9th ... WRONG!

it appears to me we score pretty well thruout the game. especially the 1st 4th and 5th innings.

end of discussion.

voodoochile
05-02-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by chisoxmike
Sorry Voodoo... my computer shut down on me and I didn't know my post actually post. :smile:

NBD. It was intended to inform you that is all. I would have deleted the first one, but two other people had already quoted it and I didn't want to create confusion.

Baby Fisk
05-12-2004, 03:45 PM
Hokay, it's been two weeks since this thread was kicked around and mulled over. What do y'all think of El Caballo now? I'm starting to cringe every time he comes to the plate.

G - 30
AB - 109
H - 26
2B - 6
3B - 0
HR - 4
RBI - 10
BA - .239
OBP - .349
BB - 17
SO - 15
SB - 3

SoxxoS
05-12-2004, 03:48 PM
He will turn it around. You got to stick with him.

Even if we call up Reed to play CF, what are we going to do...move Rowand to take Lee's spot? Then there is still a hole.

We got to wait this thing out with CLee, we don't have many other options.

Konerko is a different story. A monkey can play 1B or DH.

maurice
05-12-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Hokay, it's been two weeks since this thread was kicked around and mulled over. What do y'all think of El Caballo now?
. . .
OBP - .349
BB - 17

I say we trade him for Rick Helling!

The OBP and walks are pretty solid, but he needs to get his AVE up. The power will come in streaks. As the person who started the "bat him second" bandwagon last season, I have to agree with George:

Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Personally, I feel fixing Carlos Lee's hitting troubles are as easy as putting him in the #2 hole ahead of Maggs and Frank. He figures to get plenty of fastballs from that spot and we all know he mashes that stuff.

Call up Reed, and platoon Valentin / Konerko until Harris or Uribe cool off, and you have:

1. Harris - 2B (L)
2. Lee - LF (R)
3. Ordonez - RF (R)
4. Thomas - DH / 1B (R)
5. Uribe - SS (R)
6. Valentin / Konerko - DH / 1B (L / R)
7. Crede - 3B (R)
8. Reed / Rowand - CF (L / R)
9. Olivo / Alomar - C (R)

OurBitchinMinny
05-12-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I'm probably going to be harshly criticized for this, but I don't care. I've about had it with Carlos Lee. Honestly, does this man pay any attention when he's in the on-deck circle? He has Frank Thomas, one of the most patient hitters in the history of baseball, batting in front of him, yet it seems as though all Carlos does these days is swing at bad pitches and turn himself into an easy out for the opposition.

The way tonight's game ended is a perfect example. Carlos swung at exactly one pitch that I thought was worth offering at. Otherwise, he swung at two balls. I don't know what goes through his head, but he must stop doing this. Because of Carlos, the following things have happened:

1. Frank isn't seeing as many fastballs as he did last season (and even then he didn't see that many).

2. The second half of the lineup (Konerko, Crede, etc.), isn't seeing many pitches to hit, because unless Frank or Maggs is already on base, nobody else is. Carlos anchors the second half of the batting order, so he needs to learn to be more selective at the plate.

Right now, opposing pitchers are throwing Frank junk because they aren't worried about Carlos hurting them. He's too much of a free-swinger. I don't blame them. I would be doing the same thing. If Carlos can't stop doing this, he needs to be benched. Period. More than any other hitter in the lineup (save for perhaps Harris), Carlos Lee is killing the Sox offense.



Carlos is struggling but dont forget he led this team in RBIs last year. He went hitless last night but made some nice catches. Give the guy a chance. There are other guys hurting the lineup too. Like rowand whenever he plays. Lee is going to be key to this team winning the central. Take Frank, hardly anyone criticizes him. He never gets clutch hits. Most of his HRs are solo. Last night he took a page out of sosas book and hit a meaningless home run when they were up 12. I mean thats great, but how often does he K looking with guys on base. Lee is not too many RBIs behind him, plus lee contributes in the field. Its not fair just to criticize lee. Criticize thomas, rowand, crede. Dont put it all on 1 guy.

maurice
05-12-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Take Frank, hardly anyone criticizes him.

Which speaks volumes about the sanity of the average Sox fan.

This MVP-award-winner and sure-fire HOFer leads the team in OBP, BB, and runs scored; is second in OPS and RBI; and is third in HR and 2B.

Every Sox AB was "meaningless" after the first run scored in the first inning.

JRIG
05-12-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Take Frank, hardly anyone criticizes him. He never gets clutch hits. Most of his HRs are solo.


Frank from 2001-2003:

Close and Late: .276/.383/.553
Scoring Poistion, 2 out: .282/.394/.557
Scoring Position: .267/.402/.520
Runners On: .289/.413/.574
Men On, 2 out: .297/.426/.594

And exactly half (37 of 74) of his home runs during that time were solo. That would not be most. By comparison, over that same time span, 39 of 81 HR for Carlos Lee have been with men on. Most of his HRs are solo.

Maybe nobody criticizes Frank because he the numbers don't support it.

Deadguy
05-12-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Take Frank, hardly anyone criticizes him. He never gets clutch hits. Most of his HRs are solo.

Oh please. I was at a game in 1997 when Thomas was hitting over .350, and was booed for grounding into a double play. I was also at a game in 2002 where he was booed everytime he came to the plate. I've read articles that monikered him as "The most hated athlete in Chicago history". Thomas may avoid criticism on this site, because there are a lot of hardcore Thomas fans here, and a lot of intelligent people to boot, but this place seems to be the exception.

BTW, the Sox were 27-11 last year when Thomas homered, which means the Sox were 6 games under .500 when he didn't homer, so don't say his homers are meaningless. His AB/HR ratio was actually better with runners on last year, than with no one on. He's been a terrible clutch hitter this year, but history suggests that that won't last.

Deadguy
05-12-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
He will turn it around. You got to stick with him.

Even if we call up Reed to play CF, what are we going to do...move Rowand to take Lee's spot? Then there is still a hole.

We got to wait this thing out with CLee, we don't have many other options.

Konerko is a different story. A monkey can play 1B or DH.

I agree 100%. I have total confidence in CLee that he will bust out of this, and become an asset to the team. Plus he's shown flashes of better patience at the plate, and we've seen him steal a few bases and flash some nice leather in LF.

Konerko, on the otherhand, I have 0 confidence in. This is a guy who disappears for at least one month a season EVERY year. It's not a question of if he will disappear for a large chunk of a season, just when. That's fine if you are a 22 year old rookie making the league minimum. It's unacceptable when you've had the tenure that Konerko has and the salary that Konerko has.

I honestly don't understand the fans that look at this guy and see love. Unless you are a prepubescent girl, why do you want this overpaid stiff on the team. All I see when I look at Konerko is an underachieving, overpaid, lazy, balding stiff who is robbing the Sox blind, and is holding us back from grabbing this division by the nuts.

This is very much turning into the same situation that the Pirates had with Kevin Young, where they overvalued his production, and gave him a fat contract, and were rewarded with him declining and regressing to the point that they eventually had to release him. I envision the same thing happening with Konerko in 2005, because there is no GM dumb enough to take him and his salary on.

jeremyb1
05-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Carlos is on pace to walk 87 times and he's second on the team in walks. His OBP is .20 points higher than last season despite hitting .50 points lower. I don't think plate discipline is the problem. His power numbers are way down, I just don't think he's all that dialed in right now. There's a lot of time left in the season.

poorme
05-12-2004, 04:41 PM
Lee will probably be OK, but is he really focused on the task at hand? He sort of reminds me of Eddy Curry...

hold2dibber
05-12-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Carlos is on pace to walk 87 times and he's second on the team in walks. His OBP is .20 points higher than last season despite hitting .50 points lower. I don't think plate discipline is the problem. His power numbers are way down, I just don't think he's all that dialed in right now. There's a lot of time left in the season.

I agree.


Originally posted by poorme
Lee will probably be OK, but is he really focused on the task at hand? He sort of reminds me of Eddy Curry...

I also agree.


Carlos is actually showing enough plate discipline this year (more BBs than Ks!) that I'm cautiously optimistic that when he actually starts hitting, the improved plate discipline will allow him to be extremely productive. The caution, however, comes from the fact that he seems to me to be something of a lunk head (ala Curry) - when he decides to go to right, he starts hitting; when he decides to be patient, he starts hitting; yet he doesn't stick with those things and frequently reverts to bad old habits (which suggest a lack of focus or a lack of smarts).

OurBitchinMinny
05-12-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Which speaks volumes about the sanity of the average Sox fan.

This MVP-award-winner and sure-fire HOFer leads the team in OBP, BB, and runs scored; is second in OPS and RBI; and is third in HR and 2B.

Every Sox AB was "meaningless" after the first run scored in the first inning.


Im not talking about his entire career. His is the greatest sox hitter of all time, but he is a shell of his former self. When is the last time he has gotten a huge hit. He is not a great situational hitter anymore. I love frank and think he is a HOFer but he is past his prime. I mean hes hitting in the .260s, with 16 rbis (after 3 meaningless ones last night). Not great out of a cleanup hitter. Maybe I just expect too much from him at this point. And dont give me his on base crap. Its on overrated stat and he is useless on the bases. Never goes 1st to third of scores from 2nd. Frank was a great player, best in sox history, but he isnt the same player anymore

OurBitchinMinny
05-12-2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Oh please. I was at a game in 1997 when Thomas was hitting over .350, and was booed for grounding into a double play. I was also at a game in 2002 where he was booed everytime he came to the plate. I've read articles that monikered him as "The most hated athlete in Chicago history". Thomas may avoid criticism on this site, because there are a lot of hardcore Thomas fans here, and a lot of intelligent people to boot, but this place seems to be the exception.

BTW, the Sox were 27-11 last year when Thomas homered, which means the Sox were 6 games under .500 when he didn't homer, so don't say his homers are meaningless. His AB/HR ratio was actually better with runners on last year, than with no one on. He's been a terrible clutch hitter this year, but history suggests that that won't last.


Hes booed because of his comments that he makes. I meant he is rarely criticized on this board. And that meaningless stat? Yeah thomas's HR last night really got them over the hump for the W.

maurice
05-12-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by maurice
This MVP-award-winner and sure-fire HOFer leads the team in OBP, BB, and runs scored; is second in OPS and RBI; and is third in HR and 2B.

Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Im not talking about his entire career.

Neither am I. The rankings above are all from THIS YEAR. A player who is first in runs scored and second in RBI is a very productive player. Oh, I forgot. Those runs were all "meaningless."

Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
And dont give me his on base crap. Its on overrated stat

Welcome to WSI, Harold Reynolds.

OBP is the single most important offensive statistic. Teams with high OBPs score lots of runs. Players with lower OBPs make outs more frequently and, thus, are worse hitters. Power is important too, but Frank still has plenty of that. As Deadguy pointed out, Frank's homers win games.

jlh0023
05-12-2004, 06:56 PM
trust me, i have hated the way carlos has played lately. and i have spent the majority of the games yelling at him to open his eyes when he bats, but i haven't given up yet.... the last thing i want to do is give up on him and call last season luck, only to see him end up an all-star on another team (i.e. foulke)

OurBitchinMinny
05-12-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Neither am I. The rankings above are all from THIS YEAR. A player who is first in runs scored and second in RBI is a very productive player. Oh, I forgot. Those runs were all "meaningless."



Welcome to WSI, Harold Reynolds.

OBP is the single most important offensive statistic. Teams with high OBPs score lots of runs. Players with lower OBPs make outs more frequently and, thus, are worse hitters. Power is important too, but Frank still has plenty of that. As Deadguy pointed out, Frank's homers win games.

Tell me two times that frank has had a big hit this year. Everytime I watch or listen he strikes out looking. And a fat ass on the base? What good does that do? Hes as slow as konerko. Are you honestly saying that frank is an mvp canidate this year? .270, 6 HR, way too many Ks? No hes not off to as bad a start as lee, but lee was better than thomas last year. Dont jump all over lee after 1 month. Give him a chance.

voodoochile
05-12-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Tell me two times that frank has had a big hit this year. Everytime I watch or listen he strikes out looking. And a fat ass on the base? What good does that do? Hes as slow as konerko. Are you honestly saying that frank is an mvp canidate this year? .270, 6 HR, way too many Ks? No hes not off to as bad a start as lee, but lee was better than thomas last year. Dont jump all over lee after 1 month. Give him a chance.

Why is is necessary to tear Frank down to defend Carlos?

You post is silly. More of the same tired crap the haters have been preaching for a long time. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now.

Frank is a major part of this teams offense and if he had any protection at all the team would be putting up some serious offensive numbers.

nasox
05-12-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Tell me two times that frank has had a big hit this year. Everytime I watch or listen he strikes out looking. And a fat ass on the base? What good does that do? Hes as slow as konerko. Are you honestly saying that frank is an mvp canidate this year? .270, 6 HR, way too many Ks? No hes not off to as bad a start as lee, but lee was better than thomas last year. Dont jump all over lee after 1 month. Give him a chance.

Funny how you didn't mention Franks enormous, giant, one of the best in the Majors OBP? I guess it is easy to avoid the facts. Then again, that is how a really crappy post like yours is created. Frank has had big hits this year. It is just that he gets walked so many times he doesn't have a chance to hit. He is so selective and he doesn't swing at bad pitches. Considering the fact that all he gets are crap pitches is why he doesn't have hits. .270 isn't as good as I wish it was, but that OBP cures it for me.

You must not watch or listen very often because the stats tell me you are wrong.

batmanZoSo
05-12-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by nasox
Funny how you didn't mention Franks enormous, giant, one of the best in the Majors OBP? I guess it is easy to avoid the facts. Then again, that is how a really crappy post like yours is created. Frank has had big hits this year. It is just that he gets walked so many times he doesn't have a chance to hit. He is so selective and he doesn't swing at bad pitches. Considering the fact that all he gets are crap pitches is why he doesn't have hits. .270 isn't as good as I wish it was, but that OBP cures it for me.

You must not watch or listen very often because the stats tell me you are wrong.

He's also number 10 all time in on base percentage. Why are we cursed with this guy?

The only time since 2000 where he really didn't come through were the first few months of last year. In 01, he was hurt, in 02 he was obviously rehabbing on the field, and ever since last June he's been great.

RKMeibalane
05-12-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Carlos is struggling but dont forget he led this team in RBIs last year. He went hitless last night but made some nice catches. Give the guy a chance. There are other guys hurting the lineup too. Like rowand whenever he plays. Lee is going to be key to this team winning the central. Take Frank, hardly anyone criticizes him. He never gets clutch hits. Most of his HRs are solo. Last night he took a page out of sosas book and hit a meaningless home run when they were up 12. I mean thats great, but how often does he K looking with guys on base. Lee is not too many RBIs behind him, plus lee contributes in the field. Its not fair just to criticize lee. Criticize thomas, rowand, crede. Dont put it all on 1 guy.

Nobody said this was entirely Carlos' fault. However, the primary reason that I and several others are upset with him is because it seems as though he will never become the player everyone expects him to, and it's not because he doesn't have the talent.

As for Frank, I think you need to take another look at his numbers. Saying he strikes out too much is ridiculous. His strikeout numers are way down from last season, and he is among the league leaders in OPS and OBP. It's also not his fault that he has rarely seen any pitches to hit this season. The guys hitting behind him aren't getting it done. Carlos has struggled, and Konerko is in a terrible slump. Jose Crede has come up with clutch hits, but is too inconsistent. Those three are doing more to slow down the Sox offense than Frank, who is on a pace to score well over one hundred runs this season. Not bad for a guy who isn't getting it done.