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View Full Version : *Official* Game Thread - Sox vs. D-Rays - 4/25/04


RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 01:25 PM
Lineup:

2B- Harris
SS- Uribe
RF- Ordonez
DH- Thomas
LF- Lee
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo

delben91
04-25-2004, 01:26 PM
Here's the starting lineup for the Sox:

2B - Willie Harris
SS - Juan Uribe
RF - Magglio Ordonez
DH - Frank Thomas
LF - Carlos Lee
1B - Paul Konerko
3B - Joe Crede
CF - Aaron Rowand
C - Miguel Olivo

P - Mark Buehrle

GO SOX!!

delben91
04-25-2004, 01:26 PM
beat me by 1 minute....

Hey mods, get my thread out of there I guess.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 01:27 PM
Oops! Just merge the two threads. Sorry about that.

CyYoung5621
04-25-2004, 01:28 PM
This guy has struggled all year and its a great opportunity to get our bats rollin after that nightmere yesterday. GO SOX!

sas1974
04-25-2004, 01:30 PM
I am glad to see the return of a normal line up.

voodoochile
04-25-2004, 01:46 PM
The Chat Room (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/chat.php?setwidth=955&setheight=450) is open...

HomeFish
04-25-2004, 01:49 PM
I could have gone to this game but decided it would be best for me to remain home and catch up on some work I have to do. Hopefully the lack of me will mean good things for Buerhle. He's lost 3 straight starts with me in attendance.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 02:12 PM
Awful early to bring the infield in there.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 02:19 PM
Haha. Probably too early for the sacrifice bunt with no outs and a runner on second also. What happened Ozzie thinks it's time for smallball now that we haven't crushed the ball the last few games?

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 02:20 PM
Come on! Why do you bunt there? It's the first inning, he's on second base so there is almost no chance of a DP. He's fast, a single will score him and you have your best hitters coming up after Uribe. Let him swing, don't waste an out. What if Uribe got on base? What a terrible waste of an out. Can we fire Guillen yet?

delben91
04-25-2004, 02:23 PM
Man on 3rd with one out and the Sox can't get him home. Disgusting. Did Maggs at least hit a rope, or just a soft line drive to first?

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 02:24 PM
The bunt really helped too....

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by delben91
Man on 3rd with one out and the Sox can't get him home. Disgusting. Did Maggs at least hit a rope, or just a soft line drive to first?

It was a pop-up.

Daver
04-25-2004, 02:26 PM
:takeittochat

WWIII
04-25-2004, 02:40 PM
Is it just me or do the Sox do nothing but pop-out and fly-out?

Win1ForMe
04-25-2004, 02:41 PM
Carlos + Crede = corpseball

Carlos, on a 3-1 count, swings at ball four. It's ok to take a walk once in a while. Crede couldn't resist but swing at two pitches out of the zone, and then looked at strike 3. Pathetic...

:angry:

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 02:50 PM
HR Huff. 2-1 Tampa.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Come on! Why do you bunt there? It's the first inning, he's on second base so there is almost no chance of a DP. He's fast, a single will score him and you have your best hitters coming up after Uribe. Let him swing, don't waste an out. What if Uribe got on base? What a terrible waste of an out. Can we fire Guillen yet?

The way you have to look at it is, you have either three chances to get a hit or one chance to get a hit or a fly ball and another chance to get a hit. I think the three chances at a base hit have probably just as good a chance of getting the run in as the bunt scenario. You also have to consider the fact that in trying to get a hit, Uribe might hit a fly ball or ground ball out capable of getting Harris over anyway. Terrible situation for the bunt there.

Cubbiesuck13
04-25-2004, 02:51 PM
i think that the Oz needs to personally teach the whole team the benefits of a nice drag bunt. guys with decent speed could definatly have an advantage when the infield is forced to play shallow. i can't see the game right now so i don't know how they are playing guys like Uribe.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Carlos, on a 3-1 count, swings at ball four. It's ok to take a walk once in a while.

Carlos hasn't believed that since '02. This team's plate difference is horrendous outside of a couple guys. Sometimes I wonder if anyone in the organization thinks talking a walk is an important skill.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Carlos hasn't believed that since '02. This team's plate difference is horrendous outside of a couple guys. Sometimes I wonder if anyone in the organization thinks talking a walk is an important skill.

I wonder what the average OBP of this team is. It can't be good at all.

delben91
04-25-2004, 02:59 PM
Seems like the entire team has gone cold all at once.

WWIII
04-25-2004, 03:02 PM
This is pathetic! They better get out of this funk soon.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by delben91
Seems like the entire team has gone cold all at once.

I think the majority of the blame for this recent offensive slump can be blamed on a few guys: Carlos, Crede, Harris, and Perez. Carlos seems to have forgotten where the strike zone is, and Crede can't seem to hit the ball unless the game is on the line.

As for the other two, the top of the order has been horrendous so far this season. These guys MUST get on base in front of the Sox big guys. Too many times, it seems as though Frank or Maggs comes to the plate with no one on base. The pitcher doesn't have to get them anything to hit in those situations, and it's clogging up the offense.

If JR honestly thinks the Sox can win with players who carry around .200 batting averages, then he needs to do us all a favor and get the hell out.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:15 PM
:corpseball

Dadawg_77
04-25-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Come on! Why do you bunt there? It's the first inning, he's on second base so there is almost no chance of a DP. He's fast, a single will score him and you have your best hitters coming up after Uribe. Let him swing, don't waste an out. What if Uribe got on base? What a terrible waste of an out. Can we fire Guillen yet?

Welcome to Ozzie Ball.

HomeFish
04-25-2004, 03:16 PM
Meanwhile, as we drop a series to Tampa Bay, the Mets are about to get swept.

WWIII
04-25-2004, 03:17 PM
Quit the long-ball crap! Just get a freaking hit!

Daver
04-25-2004, 03:17 PM
:takeittochat

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:18 PM
The Sox are wasting a perfectly good pitching performance by Buehrle.

HomeFish
04-25-2004, 03:19 PM
I'll tell you where to take it....

Karim Garcia breaks up Matt Clement's no-hitter and shutout with one swing. That's good; it would have been an ugly day in the media otherwise.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:21 PM
The Sox have the top of the order coming up. They need to get something going.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 03:22 PM
What really kills me about the Sox lack of plate discipline (outside the obvious walks=baserunners) is that it allows the opposing starters to go deep into the games. Even if you are making 4 or 5 pitch outs its a lot better than Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, Juan Urbie type first pitch swinging outs.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:24 PM
:hurt ------------------------>http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/mlb/images/team_logos/50x50/la.gif

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:25 PM
More bad baserunning. Fire Ozzie Guillen!

JRIG
04-25-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
More bad baserunning. Fire Ozzie Guillen!

Don't you listen to Hawk? Getting thrown out at 2nd base to begin an inning is exciting baseball! Use that speed!

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Don't you listen to Hawk? Getting thrown out at 2nd base to begin an inning is exciting baseball! Use that speed!

Did he actually say something that stupid?

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:30 PM
Damn it, Frank!

Dadawg_77
04-25-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
More bad baserunning. Fire Ozzie Guillen!

Why isn't that in deep pink and not teal?

JRIG
04-25-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Did he actually say something that stupid?

Not that I know of. I had the sound down and the radio up. But it sounds like something he'd say after fawning over Carl Crawford and his .280 OBP all series long.

Cubbiesuck13
04-25-2004, 03:33 PM
"Crede can't seem to hit the ball unless the game is on the line."



boo hoo. my heat bleads for you. We are sooooo terrible to have a good hitting 3rd baseman who gets in a funk and only hits when it count! I want ShaME SoSo to hit a homer when we are either up by 4 or down by 10. waa waa waa

RKMeibalane
04-25-2004, 03:34 PM
HR Toby Hall. 3-1 Tampa.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
What really kills me about the Sox lack of plate discipline (outside the obvious walks=baserunners) is that it allows the opposing starters to go deep into the games. Even if you are making 4 or 5 pitch outs its a lot better than Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, Juan Urbie type first pitch swinging outs.

When you think about it who has KW brought in that demonstrates any kind of solid plate discipline other than perhaps Robbie Alomar and Everett? Uribe's, his most recent pickup, never walked more than 34 times in a season. He locked up Lee as his plate disciplined completely deteriorated. Frank and Maggs aren't going to be around forever. It'll be interesting to see what KW's acquisitions look like. Reed might just save his job or at least extend it a few more seasons.

jeremyb1
04-25-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
"Crede can't seem to hit the ball unless the game is on the line."
boo hoo. my heat bleads for you. We are sooooo terrible to have a good hitting 3rd baseman who gets in a funk and only hits when it count! I want ShaME SoSo to hit a homer when we are either up by 4 or down by 10. waa waa waa

Haha. Its early but right now Crede isn't hitting the ball at all.

Patrick134
04-25-2004, 03:37 PM
Willie with 3 hits, nice to see the top of the order coming around.

Cubbiesuck13
04-25-2004, 03:41 PM
Haha. Its early but right now Crede isn't hitting the ball at all.


he has hit a walk off double (or single if your scoring at home), a walk off sac fly, and hit a game winning homer. He is slumping but he is hitting when it counts.

StillMissOzzie
04-25-2004, 03:41 PM
HR Paulie! now 3-2 D-Rays

gosox3072
04-25-2004, 03:42 PM
You can put it on the Boarrrrrd Yes!!!!! Hopefully Paulies HR will start something for us!

joecrede
04-25-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
HR Toby Hall. 3-1 Tampa.

... On an 0-2 pitch.

Cubbiesuck13
04-25-2004, 03:44 PM
first pitch homer! at least that is what game cast is showing. But I do agree with you that we have to work the pitch count more. just ironic tho.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
he has hit a walk off double (or single if your scoring at home), a walk off sac fly, and hit a game winning homer. He is slumping but he is hitting when it counts.

Maybe if he and other people in our lineup got a few more hits before "it counts" we might not so many dire situations late in the game.

Dadawg_77
04-25-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
first pitch homer! at least that is what game cast is showing. But I do agree with you that we have to work the pitch count more. just ironic tho.

Not really, if the pitch is groved nail it.

mdep524
04-25-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Did he actually say something that stupid?

He was biting his tongue, so as to not call out such a stupid baserunning mistake. DJ said something like, "well, I'd've done the same thing if I were Willie and had that speed," but clearly it was a stupid risk to take ot lead off an inning, and Hawk knew it too.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 03:50 PM
Anyone who can watch the game know if someone is warming up in the pen?

joecrede
04-25-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Anyone who can watch the game know if someone is warming up in the pen?

Politte. Buehrle's @ 102 pitches.

DrCrawdad
04-25-2004, 04:06 PM
Losing two out of three to the D-Rays AT HOME, THAT SUCKS!

Cubbiesuck13
04-25-2004, 04:07 PM
how did they steal 2nd and 3rd? was there a throw, a bobble?

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:08 PM
I was in chat and it sounds like Rowand made a horrible play. What happened?

The_Floridian
04-25-2004, 04:08 PM
Oy vey. 5-2 Rays in the 8th.

We need some runs and we need em now.

The_Floridian
04-25-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
how did they steal 2nd and 3rd? was there a throw, a bobble?

Olivo bounced the throw or they would have got the lead runner. They made us pay for that.

Daver
04-25-2004, 04:11 PM
:takeittochat

The_Floridian
04-25-2004, 04:13 PM
Uribe goes yard. 5-3.

Ain't over yet...

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Daver
:takeittochat

Chat isn't any good for discussing one play for more than five seconds because people are constantly talking about the most recent play and doing PBP.

The_Floridian
04-25-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Daver
:takeittochat

What is meant for the board and what is meant for chat? Please explain. Thank you.

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:18 PM
Look...I like the long ball just like any of you, but this business the Sox have been up to lately where they can't seem to score unless someone goes yard is getting ridiculous. I'm sure others have said so already, but where's all the bunting and "smallball" we've been promised? I don't get it...it looks like Corpseball is making it ugly return.

Ozzie had better do something about this...and FAST. Now, it's still April...no one wins/loses a division this early, but with the Sox going into a funk while the Cubs winning their 6th in a row is frustrating. And don't tell me the Cubs fans aren't interested in what's happening with the Sox...they'd be pretty pissed if it were the other way around right now.

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:20 PM
My computers at work aren't compatible with the chat format on this site. I'm not making any excuses...I'd love to chat, but I can't do it here at the radio station...only at home.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Look...I like the long ball just like any of you, but this business the Sox have been up to lately where they can't seem to score unless someone goes yard is getting ridiculous. I'm sure others have said so already, but where's all the bunting and "smallball" we've been promised? I don't get it...it looks like Corpseball is making it ugly return.


Need I remind you of the beginning of the game? Double, sac bunt, out, out. Sacrifice bunts and small ball do not put runners on the bases, hits and walks do. We aren't getting enough hits and walks.

JRIG
04-25-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Need I remind you of the beginning of the game? Double, sac bunt, out, out. Sacrifice bunts and small ball do not put runners on the bases, hits and walks do. We aren't getting enough hits and walks.

Wastingan out to bunt a guy to third who would have scored from 2nd base on any kind of a hit is just so stupid. Why have speed on the basepaths if you're going to bunt anyway?

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Wastingan out to bunt a guy to third who would have scored from 2nd base on any kind of a hit is just so stupid. Why have speed on the basepaths if you're going to bunt anyway?

Well said, that bunt is a great example of how ineffective bunts often are. It was a bad move for a lot of reasons. Lets say Uribe singles there, Harris scores unless it is an infield single. And if its an infield single we still have two runners on. Bunts don't score runs.

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Need I remind you of the beginning of the game? Double, sac bunt, out, out. Sacrifice bunts and small ball do not put runners on the bases, hits and walks do. We aren't getting enough hits and walks. Hey Kermit!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, buddy...hadn't seen the beginning of the game. I'm following the game on the MLB.com Gameday screen. Either way...it's not looking good.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
he has hit a walk off double (or single if your scoring at home), a walk off sac fly, and hit a game winning homer. He is slumping but he is hitting when it counts. Crede with a fielder's choice... Konerko at second, 2 outs, down by a run.

Saracen
04-25-2004, 04:37 PM
Being picked off at 1st with a runner in front of you is inexcusable.

JRIG
04-25-2004, 04:39 PM
My God. Kelly Dransfeldt is pinch hitting.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:39 PM
Putting in Dransfeldt with a runner on second and 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th? I dunno, Ozzie...

Deadguy
04-25-2004, 04:40 PM
TIE GAME!!!! Yes!!!

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:40 PM
YEAAAAHHH!

BearSox
04-25-2004, 04:40 PM
Dransfelt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, I already chalked this one up as a loss when he came to the plate!


Go SOX!!

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:41 PM
Evidently, Ozzie knew something...THIS GAME IS TIED!!!!!!!

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:42 PM
Meanwhile, winning run is now on second...

5-5

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by BearSox
Dransfelt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man already chalked this one up as a loss when he came to the plate!


Go SOX!! Sox fans, please forgive me...I thought this was a loss too. Now, it's not over yet, but hopefully, the Sox can pull this one out now while they have the chance. They've only left 3 runners on base today, so that's a good sign.

OEO Magglio
04-25-2004, 04:42 PM
YYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, I thought that was the dumbest move ever to have dransfeldt pinch hit, but what the heck do I know? Obviously not much.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:44 PM
WHAT?!? Willie Harris tries to bunt???? Hahaha, Ozzie screams at him from the dugout - "Swing the F$*@ING BAT!"

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:45 PM
Wow, Willie works the count - bases loaded, 2 outs for Uribe...

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:45 PM
BASES LOADED for Juan Uribe. It can't get much better than this.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
Hey Kermit!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, buddy...hadn't seen the beginning of the game. I'm following the game on the MLB.com Gameday screen. Either way...it's not looking good.

No need to apologize dude.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:47 PM
And the 4th TB pitcher of the inning comes out to face Uribe... C'mon, Juan.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:49 PM
YEAH BABY!! BALL FOUR TO URIBE!

:winner

Saracen
04-25-2004, 04:50 PM
SOX WIN SOX WIN

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 04:50 PM
SOX WIN!!!!! SOX WIN!!!!! SOX WIN!!!!!

BearSox
04-25-2004, 04:51 PM
This went from a very depressing day with the cubs and twins both winning to a great day with that come from behind victory!

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 04:52 PM
That was pretty ridiculous. I'm amazed. A game tying single by Dransfeldt and walks from Harris and Uribe. It's like we were in the bizarro world for 15 minutes.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
That was pretty ridiculous. I'm amazed. A game tying single by Dransfeldt and walks from Harris and Uribe. It's like we were in the bizarro world for 15 minutes. Yeah, I guess this is what it's like to be a Twins fan...

OEO Magglio
04-25-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
That was pretty ridiculous. I'm amazed. A game tying single by Dransfeldt and walks from Harris and Uribe. It's like we were in the bizarro world for 15 minutes.
I'm honestly in shock, Kelly Dransfeldt you are my hero.

Nard
04-25-2004, 04:56 PM
This a dream?

duke of dorwood
04-25-2004, 04:56 PM
Never would have happened last year-

joecrede
04-25-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
That was pretty ridiculous. I'm amazed. A game tying single by Dransfeldt and walks from Harris and Uribe. It's like we were in the bizarro world for 15 minutes.

How about Gload scoring the tieing run after being inserted as a pinch-runner when Perez was available at the time. Bizarro world indeed. :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
That was pretty ridiculous. I'm amazed. A game tying single by Dransfeldt and walks from Harris and Uribe. It's like we were in the bizarro world for 15 minutes.

Well it was Tampa Bay, after all. :smile:

BearSox
04-25-2004, 05:00 PM
The fact thaty Gonzalez gave up only one run to us also made it bizzaro world. Tampa was close to taking his starting role away.

Patrick134
04-25-2004, 05:00 PM
Tampa bay isnt there yet, but they have decent young talent. ask the yankees, who got thumped by the rays in tokyo earlier this year.

JRIG
04-25-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
How about Gload scoring the tieing run after being inserted as a pinch-runner when Perez was available at the time. Bizarro world indeed. :gulp:

Couldn't believe that. Gload is the better hitter, Perez the faster runner. So what does Ozzie do? Incredible. Even more incredible it somehow turned out OK.

voodoochile
04-25-2004, 05:01 PM
Ozzie needs to ream Carlos a new one for getting picked off like that. No excuse at all. Win or lose, that could have been very costly.

Oh, who cares...

:winner

voodoochile
04-25-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Couldn't believe that. Gload is the better hitter, Perez the faster runner. So what does Ozzie do? Incredible. Even more incredible it somehow turned out OK.

Method to the madness. Timo forces the pitching change which allows Ozzie to go with the guy with better bat control. Dransfeldt has been absolutely great going the other way.

hsnterprize
04-25-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Never would have happened last year- Go figure...go stinkin' figure. The Sox, as much as we were raking them over the coals, never gave up, and hung in there for a win. This is definitely a much different team than last year. The Twins, Tigers, Cubs, and everybody else had better watch out...the Sox are coming!!!!!

Nick@Nite
04-25-2004, 05:03 PM
Well, it wasn't exactly as dramatic as Mazeroski's shot back in 1960. But style points only count when communist judges do their political thing during figure skating routines... a win is a win is a win.

Way to hang Juan!

ode to veeck
04-25-2004, 05:07 PM
Ozzie needs to ream Carlos a new one for getting picked off like that. No excuse at all. Win or lose, that could have been very costly.

Drays got away with blocking Carlos getting back to the base there---he was easily ahead of the throw except for the Perez's leg blocking the way

batmanZoSo
04-25-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
No need to apologize dude.

Nobody needs to apologize. It was criminal to win 2 out of 3 the way they hit. If anyone's apolgizing it should be the White Sox.

A few observations...

One of you said this earlier, and I don't know if it was in gest: did Ozzie really yell at Harris for bunting in the ninth? He certainly should have.

Rowand can't hang in center. We need to get a center fielder that can get that ball. It cost Buehrle two earned runs and by the grace of God alone, didn't cost us the game. I retract ever saying that he could hold his own out there. He can hit alright as a platoon guy, but he just can't hang out there. It wasn't a hard catch to make for a real center fielder. Now, I'm not gonna blame Rowand, he's been a left fielder his whole life. It's our fault for stocking this team with overpaid corners and forcing Rowand to play out of position--something we've done with a lot of players (see: Valentin in center field).

voodoochile
04-25-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
Drays got away with blocking Carlos getting back to the base there---he was easily ahead of the throw except for the Perez's leg blocking the way

That's legal isn't it? I saw it too, but thought nothing of it. Is it only legal to block home?

OEO Magglio
04-25-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's legal isn't it? I saw it too, but thought nothing of it. Is it only legal to block home?
I was wondering the same thing, but I am pretty sure it's legal.

michned
04-25-2004, 05:14 PM
Just listening to Ozzie's postgame comments on mlb gameday audio, and he's pretty upset about Willie's bunt attempt in the 9th, basically mocking the bunt attempt to the media.

Ed

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
One of you said this earlier, and I don't know if it was in gest: did Ozzie really yell at Harris for bunting in the ninth? He certainly should have. I was watching the Rays feed, and it went like this:

Announcer 1: "Willie Harris drops a bunt just foul."
Announcer 2: "Wow, that's pretty strange."
(Cut to shot of Ozzie CLEARLY upset and SCREAMING at WH)
Announcer 1: "Ozzie obvsiouly not liking that move by Harris. He's yelling at him from the dugout, 'Hit the Ball!'"
Announcer 2: "Can't say I blame him. Not when you have a chance to win this game."

Willie really looked TERRIFIED in that situation.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2004, 05:18 PM
I recall Daver saying along the line that Roward is a bad center fielder, takes bad angles and can't play the position. Some of you laughed at him....

Hey it's a win but my God, with the errors, stupid baserunning (How many times is Lee going to pulls boner's like getting picked off or trying to steal 3rd base which he did multiple times two seasons ago?) and lack of situational hitting, this is looking more and more like last year.

I hate to say this but maybe it's not the manager, maybe the Sox simply have dumb ballplayers.

Laugh if you want but sooner or later this sloppiness is going to nail them right in the rear end.

As for now the Sox are 11-7, I'll take it.

Side question...are the Twins ever going to friggin' lose? What have they won like 9 of 11???

Lip

DrCrawdad
04-25-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Losing two out of three to the D-Rays AT HOME, THAT SUCKS!

Thankfully I am wrong.

Unregistered
04-25-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Side question...are the Twins ever going to friggin' lose? What have they won like 9 of 11???
Talk to me when they've played anyone OTHER than KC, Detroit and Cleveland.

ode to veeck
04-25-2004, 05:22 PM
Just listening to Ozzie's postgame comments on mlb gameday audio, and he's pretty upset about Willie's bunt attempt in the 9th, basically mocking the bunt attempt to the media.

Ozzie on the postgame:

:ozzie "If I woulda made a bunt like that, I wouda quit the game!'

hilarious

DrCrawdad
04-25-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I was wondering the same thing, but I am pretty sure it's legal.

That is not legal, but Perez got away with it.

batmanZoSo
04-25-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I was watching the Rays feed, and it went like this:

Announcer 1: "Willie Harris drops a bunt just foul."
Announcer 2: "Wow, that's pretty strange."
(Cut to shot of Ozzie CLEARLY upset and SCREAMING at WH)
Announcer 1: "Ozzie obvsiouly not liking that move by Harris. He's yelling at him from the dugout, 'Hit the Ball!'"
Announcer 2: "Can't say I blame him. Not when you have a chance to win this game."

Willie really looked TERRIFIED in that situation.

Thanks. That was a brain fart...and a wet one. Just bad.

This was a weird game for Willie, I don't know how to rate it for him. He was what 3-3 with a walk, a double, a bunt hit and a single?...But he also got thrown out by a nautical mile trying to take second on a base hit, and laid down the most ill-advised (and thankfully foul) I've ever seen.

On a side note, our base running is atrocious. That's all I need to say.

Chisox_cali
04-25-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Laugh if you want but sooner or later this sloppiness is going to nail them right in the rear end.

Lip

Yeah, you'd like that wouldn't you?

WinningUgly!
04-25-2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
How many times is Lee going to pull boner's like getting picked off or trying to steal 3rd base which he did multiple times two seasons ago?



:b&b
Huh, huh...he said, "pull boners".
:)

Nick@Nite
04-25-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
How many times is Lee going to pulls boner's like getting picked off or trying to steal 3rd base which he did multiple times two seasons ago?

:b&b
Heh, heh... he also said "picked".
:)

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:15 PM
The White Sox had absolutely no business winning this game, but they did. I guess that's the sign of a good ballclub. This team doesn't remind me of the 2000 Sox. However, it definitely reminds me of the 1990 White Sox. I'm talking about guys playing way over their heads.

Kelly D. had no business getting a basehit to score Gload, but he did. Willie, after getting behind 0-2 with the ill-attempted bunt, had no business working the count full and eventually scoring the walk, but he did. And Juan Uribe has no business batting .320 and working a walk to win the game, but he did.

It's amazing that we won 2 of 3 in this series, because we looked absolutely horrible at times. However, they don't put pictures on scorecards or next to the standings in the paper. This game counts just as much as if we won by 11 runs. We've lost games in the past that we've played a lot better in and deserved to win. This is one of those games that we had absolutely no business winning and didn't deserve to win.

We'll take it, though.

I thought for sure the game was over when Dransfeldt was up to bat, though. Mercy.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I was in chat and it sounds like Rowand made a horrible play. What happened?

Not sure if anyone elaborated on this or if you ever saw the play...

Rowand simply didn't catch a ball that should have been caught. It was a rocket that took him to the centerfield wall. He put his glove up, but just didn't time it or was a couple of inches away. It's not like he couldn't get to it in time. He was there. He was at the wall, he put his glove up, and he simply flat-out missed the ball. It was a long flyball that he had to run for, but it was absolutely, totally catchable.

I take back everything I've ever said to defend Rowand's defense. He makes the easy plays look hard, and he makes the harder plays look impossible. He doesn't belong out there in centerfield.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Saracen
Being picked off at 1st with a runner in front of you is inexcusable.

Carlos Lee really proved that he is possible the dumbest player in major league baseball over the last 4 years. Getting picked off first base in the bottom of the 9th is bad enough. Yet, when you've got Frank Thomas on base right in front of you, it's completely inexcusable. TERRRIBLE baserunning blunder.

joecrede
04-25-2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I recall Daver saying along the line that Roward is a bad center fielder, takes bad angles and can't play the position. Some of you laughed at him....

Rowand isn't a bad defensive CF'er though Lip. In fact, he's far from it. The play today had he made it would have been on the highlight shows.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Putting in Dransfeldt with a runner on second and 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th? I dunno, Ozzie...

I was thinking the same thing at the time. To be honest, even after the game, I hate the stinkin' move. We seriously need to send one of our relievers to the farm and get another bat for the bench. We can't be relying on Timo and Dransfeldt for the rest of the season as pinch hitters.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Never would have happened last year-

Or in 2001.

Or in 2002.

I can't remember the last time we snatched victory from the hands of defeat like this.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Rowand isn't a bad defensive CF'er though Lip. In fact, he's far from it. The play today had he made it would have been on the highlight shows.

I disagree. I think it was a long run, but it was a totally catchable ball.

joecrede
04-25-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I take back everything I've ever said to defend Rowand's defense. He makes the easy plays look hard, and he makes the harder plays look impossible. He doesn't belong out there in centerfield.

I could not disagree more. Rowand has taken away quite a few hits already this year.

joecrede
04-25-2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I disagree. I think it was a long run, but it was a totally catchable ball.

I don't think many CF'ers even get close to that ball.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I could not disagree more. Rowand has taken away quite a few hits already this year.

He gets bad jumps, he takes bad angles, and he just can't read the ball. Watch the games. Why is it that almost 3 out of every 4 balls he catches is on the run with his arm extended? Are the hitters magically hitting the ball where Rowand isn't positioned? Or is it because Rowand can't get a good jump or read on the ball?

Paulwny
04-25-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's legal isn't it? I saw it too, but thought nothing of it. Is it only legal to block home?

ANY base can be blocked if a player has or is about to receive the ball.

JohnJeter
04-25-2004, 06:42 PM
Simply compare Rowand to the Dray outfielders- and we're not talking about one or two plays, we're talking about consistent excellence. Rowand isn't bad, he's just mediocre.

npdempse
04-25-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by JohnJeter
Simply compare Rowand to the Dray outfielders- and we're not talking about one or two plays, we're talking about consistent excellence. Rowand isn't bad, he's just mediocre.

It's just SOOO hard to objectively rate outfielders, this discussion seems a bit silly. His range factor is at 2.96 right now, putting him in the top 5 of CFs right now. I agree with the folks that say he doesn't appear to be getting good reads--really thought he should have had that ball today, but the numbers don't really support that.

joecrede
04-25-2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
He gets bad jumps, he takes bad angles, and he just can't read the ball. Watch the games. Why is it that almost 3 out of every 4 balls he catches is on the run with his arm extended? Are the hitters magically hitting the ball where Rowand isn't positioned? Or is it because Rowand can't get a good jump or read on the ball?

Yes, hitters are hitting the ball where Rowand isn't positioned, but it isn't magic, there's a lot of space in center. I'll meet you halfway and say maybe Rowand doesn't get the best jumps and that might be the difference between him being a very good defensive CF'er as opposed to an elite defensive CF'er.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I was wondering the same thing, but I am pretty sure it's legal.

By the book it's illegal to block any base, including home, unless you have the ball.

Paulwny
04-25-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
By the book it's illegal to block any base, including home, unless you have the ball.

or about to receive the ball.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
or about to receive the ball.

I'm pretty sure by the book it says only if you have the ball and in practice umpires call it if you have it or about to receive it. I remember a Rob Neyer column citing the rulebook and angrily saying catchers shouldn't be aloud to block the plate without the ball because when they do it increases collisions and chance of injury.

doublem23
04-25-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Rowand isn't a bad defensive CF'er though Lip. In fact, he's far from it. The play today had he made it would have been on the highlight shows.

It would have been on a highlight reel because people like watching fielders run into walls, but Rowand definitely took a horrible angle to that ball. He's not a good defensive centerfielder.

Oh, and it is legal to block a bag like that on a pick-off. Carlos Lee is just a douchebag of a baserunner.

Paulwny
04-25-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I'm pretty sure by the book it says only if you have the ball and in practice umpires call it if you have it or about to receive it. I remember a Rob Neyer column citing the rulebook and angrily saying catchers shouldn't be aloud to block the plate without the ball because when they do it increases collisions and chance of injury.

I did find this but, who knows how reliable the writer is.

Thursday, October 11, 2001

By JOHN MARSHALL
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Q: Why is it that runners are allowed to "take out" the catcher when coming in at home plate? I could understand if they just collided while sliding into home, but it's quite obvious that, most of the time, they're trying to take the catcher's head off. That doesn't happen at other bases.

AG: It is always legal for a defensive player to block a base, as long as he has the ball or is about to receive the ball. But that blocking rarely happens at other bases, because fielders have no defense against the runner's spikes. The catcher, on the other hand, is well-equipped to fend off the runner. Also, there is much more at stake at home plate. So the catcher blocks the plate and the runner tries to "unblock" the plate.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 07:41 PM
I found this on the MLB website:

OBSTRUCTIONis the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered "in the act of fielding a ball." It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the "act of fielding" the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

It seems like you could interpret it either way but I would interpret it as only allowing fielders to block a base if it is necessary to catch a throw or field a ball, i.e. intentionally blocking a base when it could be avoided is illegal. Of course, it is enforced quite liberally the opposite of how I interpret it.

Paulwny
04-25-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I found this on the MLB website:



It seems like you could interpret it either way but I would interpret it as only allowing fielders to block a base if it is necessary to catch a throw or field a ball, i.e. intentionally blocking a base when it could be avoided is illegal. Of course, it is enforced quite liberally the opposite of how I interpret it.

Thanks for finding the official rule, it's left up to the ump to decide what he thinks.

Over By There
04-25-2004, 08:38 PM
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but did anyone else catch Willsy namechecking WSI in the postgame? :cool:

Saying some here don't have faith in Dransfeldt...

TornLabrum
04-25-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Over By There
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but did anyone else catch Willsy namechecking WSI in the postgame? :cool:

Saying some here don't have faith in Dransfeldt...

I caught that on the way home from the game. Oh, ye of little faith! I was just hoping to God Ozzie was making the right move!

Speaking of plugs for WSI, I had a talk with Nancy Faust before the game today. She is a frequent visitor to WSI and has recommended the site to several of her friends. According to her, they've all come back with rave reviews.

Brian26
04-25-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Over By There
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but did anyone else catch Willsy namechecking WSI in the postgame? :cool:

Saying some here don't have faith in Dransfeldt...

Willsy made a few comments in the postgame that make me think he might just have a computer in the studio with him.

TornLabrum
04-25-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Willsy made a few comments in the postgame that make me think he might just have a computer in the studio with him.

Maybe that's how he's able to get email!

JRIG
04-25-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Willsy made a few comments in the postgame that make me think he might just have a computer in the studio with him.

He does, unless he's in the bullpen bar.

Bisco Stu
04-25-2004, 11:12 PM
This game should end all doubts of Ozzie. He outmanaged Pinella, generally considered one of the best in the game. Sox are 6-1 in one-run games and have won 5 in their last at-bat. Both are significant signs of a well-managed team, having the right people in the right places at the right times.

JRIG
04-25-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
This game should end all doubts of Ozzie. He outmanaged Pinella, generally considered one of the best in the game. Sox are 6-1 in one-run games and have won 5 in their last at-bat. Both are significant signs of a well-managed team, having the right people in the right places at the right times.

Bunting Willie Harris to third in the first inning? Giving up an out when Harris is fast enough to score on any hit anyway? And then not getting a run out of it anyway.

Pinch-running Ross Gload with speedy Timo Perez on the bench, then being forced to send Timo up as a pinch-hitter?

Today didn't prove anything. Winning one-run games is mainly a product of luck anyway.

cheeses_h_rice
04-25-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu
This game should end all doubts of Ozzie. He outmanaged Pinella, generally considered one of the best in the game. Sox are 6-1 in one-run games and have won 5 in their last at-bat. Both are significant signs of a well-managed team, having the right people in the right places at the right times.

I think the Sox just got lucky today. What are the odds the Sox would win on 2 walks?

doublem23
04-25-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Bunting Willie Harris to third in the first inning? Giving up an out when Harris is fast enough to score on any hit anyway? And then not getting a run out of it anyway.

Pinch-running Ross Gload with speedy Timo Perez on the bench, then being forced to send Timo up as a pinch-hitter?

Today didn't prove anything. Winning one-run games is mainly a product of luck anyway.

I agree... Let's be realistic here... The Sox were pounding the ball for some nice hits that Tampa Bay was just standing in front of... This game could have been a blow-out. Also, had Dransfeldt not come through, or had Gload been thrown out (if Cruz's throw was a foot more to the left, he would of), and had Trever Miller (I think)and Lance Carter thrown strikes, we may have been talking about this game very differently. A win is a win is a win is a win, but we didn't earn this one. I'll still take it.

kermittheefrog
04-25-2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I agree... Let's be realistic here... The Sox were pounding the ball for some nice hits that Tampa Bay was just standing in front of... This game could have been a blow-out. Also, had Dransfeldt not come through, or had Gload been thrown out (if Cruz's throw was a foot more to the left, he would of), and had Trever Miller (I think)and Lance Carter thrown strikes, we may have been talking about this game very differently. A win is a win is a win is a win, but we didn't earn this one. I'll still take it.

Agreed. It's not like Ozzie is a genius who knew Kelly Dransfeldt, a guy who hit .210 in AAA last year, was good for a single if he just threw him out there. And the Gload decision was just plain weird. It didn't make any sense and didn't benefit the team in any visible way, it just didn't hurt us either. Can we fire Ozzie yet?

Bisco Stu
04-26-2004, 01:46 AM
Blame my ignorance on the 'liberal media.' CBS Sportsline said Ozzie made all the right moves in the 9th.

I still stand by my statement that good/better/well managed teams win close games. The 2000 World Series is a prime example, all the games were close, but the Skanks were the better team and won them.

Contend till the end is the least I ask of this team and Ozzie seems capable of delivering that, if not more.

anewman35
04-26-2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I think the Sox just got lucky today. What are the odds the Sox would win on 2 walks?

We're going to blow games we should win (opening day) and win games we should lose (a couple so far). As long as the good luck outnumbers te bad, we're in good shape.

voodoochile
04-26-2004, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Agreed. It's not like Ozzie is a genius who knew Kelly Dransfeldt, a guy who hit .210 in AAA last year, was good for a single if he just threw him out there. And the Gload decision was just plain weird. It didn't make any sense and didn't benefit the team in any visible way, it just didn't hurt us either. Can we fire Ozzie yet?

I think the Gload decision was based on having a short bench. He was running for Konerko, so if he runs with someone else, and the game goes to extra innings, he eats up two of his bench slots, not one.

The Timo/KD thing was about matchups. He brought in Timo to face a RHP, but when Lou switched, he did the right thing and brought in KD.

Yes, I agree the first inning bunt was a bad decision and Harris should NOT be leading off, but the Sox are already performing better than under Manuel with a markedly lower talent level. Baseball isn't ALL about X's and O's and Ozzie has managed to change the clubhouse energy level by playing to win.

Hopefully some of the other stuff will come with time. He's a rookie. Can we honestly say we are disappointed enough with the way the team is performing to fire him?

Let's not miss the forest for the trees. Winning is what is important.

Dadawg_77
04-26-2004, 08:37 AM
I thought Gload was out at the plate. If he is called out on that play the game is over and we would be talking about Ozzie being a moron. This is a game of inches and we saw that today. We shouldn't get to high or too low on one game, because it is just one game. While I love the win, there are some trends starting to emerge which worry me as a fan. And that is what we should be watching since they have more effect on the teamís success then just one win.

Anyone else find ironic that the Sox won on a walk?

Brian26
04-26-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I thought Gload was out at the plate.

The throw beat him by a mile, and I thought he was a gone goose. It was a hell of a slide. He went in with his right foot to the outside part of the plate, and the replay showed he was definitely safe.

As I said earlier in the thread, the Sox had every reason to lose this game today, but somehow they pulled it out. Reminds me a lot of the 1990 version of this team. Guys like Dransfeldt, Timo, Willie (working the count full and drawing the walk), and even maybe Uribe playing WAY over their heads. I love it.

kermittheefrog
04-26-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Anyone else find ironic that the Sox won on a walk?

Yes. Yes yes yes. And it wasn't just one walk, it was three consecutive walks. I know one was intentional but it remains stunning.

kermittheefrog
04-26-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the Gload decision was based on having a short bench. He was running for Konerko, so if he runs with someone else, and the game goes to extra innings, he eats up two of his bench slots, not one.


You can't play to win the tenth innning before you tie it up in the ninth. You have to get to the tenth first, pinch run with Timo, worry about having a short bench in extras if you make it to extras.

voodoochile
04-26-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You can't play to win the tenth innning before you tie it up in the ninth. You have to get to the tenth first, pinch run with Timo, worry about having a short bench in extras if you make it to extras.

Also, Timo was the only LH bat available on the bench, which allowed him to force Lou's hand with the pitching change that eventually gave up the single to KD.

Dadawg_77
04-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Also, Timo was the only LH bat available on the bench, which allowed him to force Lou's hand with the pitching change that eventually gave up the single to KD.

Look the fact it worked once is great, but will it work 9 out 10 times? That is the question to be asked, for it is the only question that matters now.

voodoochile
04-26-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Look the fact it worked once is great, but will it work 9 out 10 times? That is the question to be asked, for it is the only question that matters now.

I guess we'll have to try it 9 more times and see. :D:

All I'm saying it that it isn't as simple as saying - send the fastest guy out to pinch run. Sometimes it's better to send the second fastest guy out there and in this case, it worked.

Will it work every time? No, but the Sox aren't going to always get the timely basehit either. Somedays you eat the bear, somedays the bear eats you. Thus has it ever been...