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Mickster
04-23-2004, 06:21 PM
...before you have to chalk up the whole experiment as a loss?

I know that Willie can run the bases, has incredible speed and range at 2b but he has looked horrible at the plate, has a horrid OBP for a lead-off hitter and can't draw a walk or work a pitch-count to save his life.

Most people will say.."it's only been 15 games; it's too early to tell.." and I don't necessarily disagree. If it continues at the current pace, when do you pull the plug??

poorme
04-23-2004, 06:23 PM
Ok, let's ditch him. Who's going to play second?

Daver
04-23-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Ok, let's ditch him. Who's going to play second?

Go find your glove,your starting Saturday.


:)

Mickster
04-23-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Ok, let's ditch him. Who's going to play second?

Well it is rumored that KW is attempting to trade Wunsch for a LH bat off the bench, do you play Uribe at 2nd and have the "LH bat" be a utility infielder?

habibharu
04-23-2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Ok, let's ditch him. Who's going to play second?
him---------->http://www.foxsports.com/netapp/blobs/active/9/14/2258_21_1.jpg

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 06:27 PM
I'm through with him already. I like him on the bench as a BU OF/IF who can steal a base, but he should NOT be starting. Even the bench position would be up for grabs IMO if he cannot PH effectively.

MRKARNO
04-23-2004, 06:31 PM
Maybe the 2004 version of Aaron Miles: Bryant Nelson.

At AAA Charlotte, here's what he's done so far:

22 for 57 which is a .386 average
3 Home Runs
6 BB/3 K
3 for 4 on Steal attempts
.444 OBP and .632 SLG
And he's a lefty like Harris

I mean, he is 30 years old, so he would be a stop-gap at most. Maybe he can come up and be the utility infielder.

The fact is that we need a legitimite second basemen, This is the only position where we do not have anything now or anything down the line either.

SEALgep
04-23-2004, 06:37 PM
I like Harris and am willing to give him more time. With that said, it would have made things real interesting if the Wunsch for Bellhorn deal happened. I like that guy, and if the Cubs had kept him at second, he probably would have continued to play well IMO.

habibharu
04-23-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Maybe the 2004 version of Aaron Miles: Bryant Nelson.

At AAA Charlotte, here's what he's done so far:

22 for 57 which is a .386 average
3 Home Runs
6 BB/3 K
3 for 4 on Steal attempts
.444 OBP and .632 SLG
And he's a lefty like Harris

I mean, he is 30 years old, so he would be a stop-gap at most. Maybe he can come up and be the utility infielder.

The fact is that we need a legitimite second basemen, This is the only position where we do not have anything now or anything down the line either. we could probably move valido to second

habibharu
04-23-2004, 06:42 PM
and we have ruddy yan. he looks pretty solid so far

SEALgep
04-23-2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
we could probably move valido to second He needs to develop for a couple more years at least.

habibharu
04-23-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He needs to develop for a couple more years at least. true, he is only 18

Cubbiesuck13
04-23-2004, 09:47 PM
i like harris and think that he is not doing that awful. he manufactures runs. i can't watch every game or even most but i have twice seen him draw a leadoff walk or get a single, steal second and have somene drive him in. his deffense is to invaluable to have him sit. maybe instead of lead off he could switch with Olivo, the second fastest man on the team.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
i like harris and think that he is not doing that awful. he manufactures runs. i can't watch every game or even most but i have twice seen him draw a leadoff walk or get a single, steal second and have somene drive him in. his deffense is to invaluable to have him sit. maybe instead of lead off he could switch with Olivo, the second fastest man on the team.

Yeah, that screaming liner of a single tonight was just smoked. If he had only hit the next one so hard he might have had two hits.

The guy is completely overmatched at the plate right now. He just doesn't get good wood on the ball very often.

santo=dorf
04-23-2004, 10:31 PM
Let's see how fast Willie can run to Charlotte , then decide if he should stay on the team.

indysoxfan
04-23-2004, 10:38 PM
well.... i could see giving the benefit of the doubt and at least another month.... (nervously wringing my hands)

batmanZoSo
04-23-2004, 11:01 PM
I give him until yesterday to prove his worth as a starter. Once Valentin comes back, the Willie Harris experiment is over. He's come a long way though I'll give him that. At least he's not an automatic out. And he's 4/4 in steals (?)

Nard
04-23-2004, 11:01 PM
He'll break out soon enough.

He's not THAT bad. I mean the guy has 7 runs in only 12 games. That's more than Crede and Uribe who have both played 13 games.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Nard
He'll break out soon enough.

He's not THAT bad. I mean the guy has 7 runs in only 12 games. That's more than Crede and Uribe who have both played 13 games.

7 in 13 and 52 AB. He also has a robust .519 OPS. Just to put that in perspective, Thomas has a .473 OBP.

The only reason Harris is that "hot" is because he managed to swing at a pitch tonight full force and nick it so perfectly that it rolled dead 15 feet from the plate. When the pitcher fell over trying to field it, Willie beat it out.

When your best offensive weapon is the full swinging bunt, you really don't HAVE an offensive weapon. Actually, his weapons are offensive, so I guess that counts for something...

Oh well, at least we've got Uribe...

mdep524
04-23-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
maybe instead of lead off he could switch with Olivo, the second fastest man on the team.

I was thinking about this hypothetically the other day. Considering how well he is hitting right now, and the fact that he has good speed (al though he does strike out a lot), do you think Olivo could be a #1 or #2 hitter in the batting order?

As far as Willie goes, he is totally overmatched at the plate, but as long as the team is winning he has a longer leash than if the team was struggling out of the gate. I read an article yesterday about Milwaukee's Scott Podsednik that said guys with speed can be late bloomers at the big league level. (Podsednik is almost 30 and he was awful until last year, now he's a great lead off hitter.) I think Willie should be canned (or at least demoted), but that is something to think about.

batmanZoSo
04-23-2004, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Thomas has a .473 OBP.



Does he really? Wow, and he's batting all of .220. That's awesome. Just wait til he starts hitting. Hopefully he goes out with three or four great years to inform people why he's one of the best all around hitters who ever lived.

stillz
04-23-2004, 11:14 PM
I like Willie's speed... a lot! But he can't seem to get on base - simple as that. His chance to start should end as soon as Jose gets off the DL. Uribe has earned the nod.

JC456
04-23-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Ok, let's ditch him. Who's going to play second?

Duh, how about Uribe? You think? Valentin is the shortstop.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Does he really? Wow, and he's batting all of .220. That's awesome. Just wait til he starts hitting. Hopefully he goes out with three or four great years to inform people why he's one of the best all around hitters who ever lived.

Yeah, he's already walked 16 times this year which is twice as many as anyone else on the team.

JC456
04-23-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
I was thinking about this hypothetically the other day. Considering how well he is hitting right now, and the fact that he has good speed (al though he does strike out a lot), do you think Olivo could be a #1 or #2 hitter in the batting order?

As far as Willie goes, he is totally overmatched at the plate, but as long as the team is winning he has a longer leash than if the team was struggling out of the gate. I read an article yesterday about Milwaukee's Scott Podsednik that said guys with speed can be late bloomers at the big league level. (Podsednik is almost 30 and he was awful until last year, now he's a great lead off hitter.) I think Willie should be canned (or at least demoted), but that is something to think about.

Olivo is done if he can't figure out that a pitch seven feet outside isn't a strike. Three times tonight this guy swung at a pitch that was almost in the other batters box. Come on. Where is the hitting coach on the second third and fourth time up at the plate.
What does Walker do, abandon the hitters?

We need a catcher and that is that. Posada for the Yankees is the real deal and he came out of nowhere five years ago. Olivo can't hold his jock! This position will be the team's downfall if they do not discipline this kid.

batmanZoSo
04-23-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, he's already walked 16 times this year which is twice as many as anyone else on the team.

They just did a thing on FSN about Frank's at bat in KC this year. Someone posted that it was the best at bat he'd ever seen...I never saw it until just now. And he was right.

The tally was 17 pitches and 9:53 on the clock. And he went 3-2 early...he must've fouled off 12 or 13 in a row.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Olivo is done if he can't figure out that a pitch seven feet outsid isn't a strike. Three times tonight this guy swung at a pitch that was almost in the other batters box. Come on. Where is the hitting coach on the second third and fourth time up at the plate.
What does Walker abandon the hitters?

Olivo is batting .315, .353, .563, .915.

That's not exactly chopped liver. Maybe Walker needs to keep doing what he is doing. It seems to be working.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
They just did a thing on FSN about Frank's at bat in KC this year. Someone posted that it was the best at bat he'd ever seen...I never saw it until just now. And he was right.

The tally was 17 pitches and 9:53 on the clock. And he went 3-2 early...he must've fouled off 12 or 13 in a row.

I never did see that one. I do remember the game winner off of Fat Eddie last year against the Twins in which Frank fouled of a ton of pitches, just missing 3 HR before finally launching the game winner. That at bat must have been 14 pitches or so.

I remember Carl Everett calling it his favorite moment of the season.

JC456
04-23-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Olivo is batting .315, .353, .563, .915.

That's not exactly chopped liver. Maybe Walker needs to keep doing what he is doing. It seems to be working.

You're not serious are you. You think hitting 315 after tonight is good when he was batting 390 three games ago. What does that tell you? he can't figure out good pitching. There are many average players with good averages, but when a player faces a good pitcher what is his stats. Olivo 0-FOR tonight dude with 3, count them 3 strike outs with the ball in the other batters box when he swung. How about having an eye, that means something I think!

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by JC456
You're not serious are you. You think hitting 315 after tonight is good when he was batting 390 three games ago. What does that tell you? he can't figure out good pitching. There are many average players with good averages, but when a player faces a good pitcher what is his stats. Olivo 0-FOR tonight dude with 3, count them 3 strike outs with the ball in the other batters box when he swung. How about having an eye, that means something I think!

Chalk it up to a rough night he has been much better this year at laying off the breaking stuff. If it continues to be an issue then you have a point, but everyone is going to struggle from time to time.

Daver
04-23-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by JC456
You're not serious are you. You think hitting 315 after tonight is good when he was batting 390 three games ago. What does that tell you? he can't figure out good pitching. There are many average players with good averages, but when a player faces a good pitcher what is his stats. Olivo 0-FOR tonight dude with 3, count them 3 strike outs with the ball in the other batters box when he swung. How about having an eye, that means something I think!


Your bitching about production from the number nine spot in the lineup?


You do realize the Sox play in the AL right?

JC456
04-23-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Chalk it up to a rough night he has been much better this year at laying off the breaking stuff. If it continues to be an issue then you have a point, but everyone is going to struggle from time to time.
I watched tonight and I saw the same at bats I saw last year too many times. The second time he struck out tonight come on was three feet off the plate. The catcher had to lunge for the ball to save it from being a wild pitch. Then in the ninth, the same thing again. I am tired of watching players on the Sox, and this includes Lee, continue to show poor judgement at home plate during a crucial at bat. This team goes nowhere unless they overcome the bull with good pitching. They must, i repeat, must learn to hit good pitching. I'm quite frankly tire of seeing batters just give up at bats. why not be creative at the plate and bunt if you feel overmatched. At least you mayke someone stretch and make an error like we do.

FarWestChicago
04-24-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Your bitching about production from the number nine spot in the lineup?


You do realize the Sox play in the AL right? Lip hasn't checked in yet with his "this is why the Sox are terrible" rants yet. This guy is just filling in. :smile:

Lip Man 1
04-24-2004, 12:37 AM
Surprise Westie...It's hard to bitch when you are 10-6. But let's wait and see what happens. It's a llllloooooonnnnnnnnggggggggggggggg season.

Lip

JC456
04-24-2004, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Surprise Westie...It's hard to bitch when you are 10-6. But let's wait and see what happens. It's a llllloooooonnnnnnnnggggggggggggggg season.

Lip

Why aren't they 12 and 4? I'll tell you why,they didn't play the Yanks toughat home. The Sox fans deserve to see winners at home. DESERVE. When I see players merely giving up at bats, it makes me sick. They should really be 14 and 2.

batmanZoSo
04-24-2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Why aren't they 12 and 4? I'll tell you why,they didn't play the Yanks toughat home. The Sox fans deserve to see winners at home. DESERVE. When I see players merely giving up at bats, it makes me sick. They should really be 14 and 2.

Screw it. They should be 16-0!

Easy pally. You must've went to the Buehrle game. I know how it feels. :smile:

pinwheels3530
04-24-2004, 02:30 AM
I rather see willie work at his craft than see alomar half ass it out there.

mweflen
04-24-2004, 02:46 AM
If I'm in charge, Willie has exactly as long as Jose is on the DL to prove he can break at least .320 in OBP (NOT a superhuman feat...).

If he can't, when Jose's back, Uribe has the job. He's actually earned it.

But, alas, I'm not in charge. I have a sinking sensation we'll have Wee Willie shoved in our faces all year.

Ozzie... wake up, please! :whiner:

ncfan
04-24-2004, 09:15 AM
I sure feel good about Harris, Uribe out there on defense.
Giving up on Willie right now could be a mistake. We have plenty
of offensive punch in our lineup. Pitching, and defense will be
the factor as the season moves on. Jose, well frankley he scares
me on defense, as much as Koch does pitching. We are getting strong up the middle on defense where it counts.

SSN721
04-24-2004, 09:55 AM
I want to see WIllie get another month, I dont think we lose anything defensively by having him out there, and the rest of our lineup is hitting well wnough at the moment. If he cant get his OBP to .320-.330 by then, I suppose we should start looking for other options. I still think it is too little of an amount of time to judge him though.

ondafarm
04-24-2004, 10:30 AM
How long do we leave Willie Harris in the lead-off spot or how long do we leave him on the roster? Two different questions.

The best baseball guys I know are always covering their bets and always have a back-up plan. Right now I don't see one for Willie Harris. Charlotte's everyday 2B is okay, but not major league caliber. I don't see a lot of competition anywhere for Harris in the Sox organization. Or as a lead-off hitter by the way. Does he need to adjust, absolutely and if the Sox go into a tailspin, something needs to be tried. But when you are winning, you leave most things alone.

On the roster. He's as solid a defensive 2B as we've had in awhile. I'd rate him as better defensively than Ray D. As long as his hitting is above the classic Mendoza line (.219 for you flat earth folks) he's not a drag on the team. His speed makes him a valuable pinch runner if nothing else.

Mickster
04-24-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
I want to see WIllie get another month, I dont think we lose anything defensively by having him out there, and the rest of our lineup is hitting well wnough at the moment. If he cant get his OBP to .320-.330 by then, I suppose we should start looking for other options. I still think it is too little of an amount of time to judge him though.

It very well might be too little time to judge Willie, but do you, in the meantime, go with the hot Uribe? I think you go with the hot hand now, give Uribe his shot while hs's raking and give it back to Willie if Uribe cools off... Just my opinion.

SSN721
04-24-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
It very well might be too little time to judge Willie, but do you, in the meantime, go with the hot Uribe? I think you go with the hot hand now, give Uribe his shot while hs's raking and give it back to Willie if Uribe cools off... Just my opinion.

I do agree to a point. I like the fact that we can use both at the moment since Jose is hurt right now. The only thing I dont like is if we keep Uribe in because he is hot, and just put WIllie in here and there, he never will get the consistent at bats he will need to see if he can adjust and improve. I say as long as we are winning right now, we give him at least another month. If he was not good defensively, it would be a completely different story. BUt I would still like him to get consistent at bats for at least another month.

bizkorn592
04-25-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
It very well might be too little time to judge Willie, but do you, in the meantime, go with the hot Uribe? I think you go with the hot hand now, give Uribe his shot while hs's raking and give it back to Willie if Uribe cools off... Just my opinion.


Mickster, you sound very intelligent. I too think we have to go with the hot Uribe. I'm not at all impressed with Harris' defense. It seems like he give up to early on grounders to his right and I'm looking forward to Valentin's return so Uribe could play second. (I never thought I would ever look forward to Valentin's return. Maybe we should move Uribe to SS and Jose to 2B.

Daver
04-25-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by bizkorn592
Mickster, you sound very intelligent. I too think we have to go with the hot Uribe. I'm not at all impressed with Harris' defense. It seems like he give up to early on grounders to his right and I'm looking forward to Valentin's return so Uribe could play second. (I never thought I would ever look forward to Valentin's return. Maybe we should move Uribe to SS and Jose to 2B.


Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Mohoney
04-26-2004, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Does he really? Wow, and he's batting all of .220. That's awesome. Just wait til he starts hitting. Hopefully he goes out with three or four great years to inform people why he's one of the best all around hitters who ever lived.

Plus, watch Frank's at-bats more closely, and you begin to realize that pitchers give him NOTHING to hit. I've seen at least 4 at-bats where Frank was down in the count 0-2 and drew walks. He's really seeing the ball well. By the way, that BA is up to .260+ and that OBP is up to .490+ now. That certainly works for me.

batmanZoSo
04-26-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
Plus, watch Frank's at-bats more closely, and you begin to realize that pitchers give him NOTHING to hit. I've seen at least 4 at-bats where Frank was down in the count 0-2 and drew walks. He's really seeing the ball well. By the way, that BA is up to .260+ and that OBP is up to .490+ now. That certainly works for me.

That's so true about getting nothing to hit. But the last few games, when he has, he's made them pay big. Since he came back the other day, he's been getting gradually hotter. I think he'll get real hot here soon, something like 10 homers and 24 rbis in May.

mweflen
04-26-2004, 12:35 AM
Some choice Willie-related quotes:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040425soxbits,1,4723500.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


Praying for a Jose Vidro trade...

batmanZoSo
04-26-2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by mweflen
Some choice Willie-related quotes:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040425soxbits,1,4723500.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


Praying for a Jose Vidro trade...

I am so glad the Carl Crawford fiasco is over. Why can't we get him out? All damn weekend that guy was on base and stealing bases and getting hits. When it's all said and done, he'll be remembered as one of the biggest Sox-killers ever along with Bordick and Sweeney. He already has a walk-off against us and he's not a power hitter.

chisox06
04-26-2004, 12:55 AM
I was up in the air about Willie until I saw that bunt in the 9th inning. It was nice to see Ozzie ring him a new one from the dugout something JM never would have done. He's not a major league player at the plate or in his head.

scottyl
04-26-2004, 01:05 AM
Willie has been told he needs to step up. I like his speed on the basepaths. Willie needs to find that happy mental place to play loose, yet up to his potential. I want to see him succeed.

mweflen
04-26-2004, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I am so glad the Carl Crawford fiasco is over. Why can't we get him out? All damn weekend that guy was on base and stealing bases and getting hits. When it's all said and done, he'll be remembered as one of the biggest Sox-killers ever along with Bordick and Sweeney. He already has a walk-off against us and he's not a power hitter.

yeah - this series, Crawford looked like Henderson, Pierre and Suzuki all rolled into one.

And then you look at OUR leadoff guy...

<<<SHUDDER>>>

I suppose there's been improvement, though. Last year, Wee Willie was an automatic out in almost every situation. This year, he doesn't seem to be on automatic so much. He's attaining Royce-level reliability.

Originally posted by scottyl
I like his speed on the basepaths.

One needs to BE on the basepaths before the speed can become a factor.

As of right now, Willie is a one and a half tool player. 4 walks, 14 strikeouts, and a .290 OBP is NOT very inspiring.