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View Full Version : Q. of the week poll.


idseer
04-22-2004, 10:39 PM
not sure if it's been pointed out or not ... but what is with hoyt wilhelm being in 6th place ( behind the likes of kittle, carrasquel, melton, wood and allen)?
do this many sox fans not know what wilhelm meant to this team?
for 6 straight years (starting at age 40 btw) hoyt was probably the best reliever in the american league! he AVERAGED 7 wins, 16+ saves (in an era where the saves leaders had saves in the mid twenties) and an incredible 1.92 era. (not to mention he's a hof'er)

allen had 3 years with the sox. one great year, one good year, and one injury-filled year.

wood had four 20-win seasons but lost almost as many as he won and had a total of 57 saves ... in 12 years and a so-so 3.30 era.

melton did hit some homeruns but averaged just 67 rbi's a year while hitting around .250. he also wasn't very good at 3rd with a fielding % under .950.

kittle and carrasquel are a joke to even be considered.
kittle hit .239 and averaged less than 50 rbi's in 8 seasons for the sox.

and chico was a weak .258 hitter who gave us 3 sb's a year and was only slightly above average in the field for 10 years.

if we're going to retro-retire any sox numbers it'd be a crime to honor anyone other than wilhelm.

TDog
04-22-2004, 11:35 PM
Wilbur Wood deserves to be on top of the list.

Hoyt Wilhelm taught Wilbur Wood the knuckleball, but Wilbur Wood was the everyday reliever until he became the everyday starter.

He was White Sox pitching for a few years.

TDog
04-22-2004, 11:36 PM
Sorry for the separate post, but I just noticed that Ron Kittle's number is already retired.

TommyJohn
04-22-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by TDog
Sorry for the separate post, but I just noticed that Ron Kittle's number is already retired.

Yeah, for Jackie Robinson. :D: :D: :D:

Lip Man 1
04-23-2004, 10:34 AM
IDSEER:

Landis and Peters first, although I certainly can't argue with Hoyt.

"Wilhelm was to the 60's, what "Goose" Gossage was to the 70's, Dan Quisenberry to the 80's and Mariano Rivera to the 90's. He was unhittable. The only difference between Hoyt and those other relief pitchers was, that he didnít throw hard enough to break a pain of glass.

Wilhelm threw the knuckleball and it was hell on hitters and his own catchers to boot!

Hoyt had already established himself as a star pitcher with the New York Giants and the Baltimore Orioles when he was acquired by the Sox in one of the most lop sided trades in team history. Wilhelm, shortstop Ron Hansen, 3rd baseman Pete Ward and outfielder Dave Nicholson were acquired by the Sox on January 14, 1963 from the Orioles in exchange for shortstop Luis Aparicio and the late outfielder Al Smith.

Ward would become co- rookie of the year and a serious power threat. Nicholson who struck out at lot, still averaged in double figures in home runs. Hansen would become one of the top glove men in the league and also held the team record for home runs by a shortstop until broken by Jose Valentin. Wilhelm though was amazing.

How good was he?

Despite being in his 40's when the Sox acquired him, Wilhelm racked up 41 wins and 98 saves during the years 1963 through 1968.

He was great right from the start, allowing one run in his first eighteen innings of work in 1963. Heíd finish that season saving 21 games, throwing 137 innings and having an ERA of 2.64. 1964 saw him collect twelve wins, save 27 games, throw 131 innings and have an ERA of 1.99. Things didnít stop in 1965. Hoyt saved 20 games, pitched 144 innings and finished the year with an ERA of 1.66.

In 1966, Wilhelm suffered his only serious injury when an errant ball struck him in the batting cage in Spring training. The index finger was broken and he missed half the year. Hoyt still threw 81 innings and had an ERA of 1.66 The heartbreaking 1967 season had Wilhelm winning eight, saving twelve and having an incredible ERA of 1.31! This throwing nothing but the knuckleball. Even in 1968 when the Sox were terrible, Wilhelm still had four wins, twelve saves and an ERA of 1.73.

Simply put the man was the best relief pitcher in baseball at that time." -- Hoyt Wilhelm Remembered. WSI.

Lip

soxrme
04-23-2004, 11:48 AM
Yes Hoyt Wilhelm was a great reliever for the Sox and in my mind would be second on that list to Jim Landis. Landis was a special outfielder who was usually second to Mickey Mantle in All Star voting.

TDog
04-23-2004, 12:07 PM
Considering the success of the franchise, the White Sox probably have retired too many numbers already.

I saw Hoyt Wilhelm pitch for the Sox, but I had no memory of what number he wore. At the same time, I can't look at a player wearing 28 without thinking of Wilbur Wood, or 17 without thinking of Carlos May. Even the number 11 that meant so much to me when I was a kid doesn't resonate with younger fans that have never seen a Sox player wear it.

It isn't like we're talking about Babe Ruth or Ted Williams or Jackie Robinson.

owensmouth
04-23-2004, 12:22 PM
Landis was an excellent center fielder. When you talk about the strength up the middle that the 1959 White Sox team had, Landis was a major factor. With Landis in center, Aparicio and Fox at shortstop and second, and Lollar behind the plate, the Sox just needed to cover the corners.

Landis though, was the coverboy for the "center field is a defensive position" theory of baseball. A career .247 hitter, he was not truely a threat with a bat in his hands. For all his speed, he wasn't setting any records stealing bases.

poorme
04-23-2004, 12:28 PM
Wilhelm is a hall of famer who spent more time with the Sox than any other team. How many guys can you say that about?

Lip Man 1
04-23-2004, 04:46 PM
Owensmouth:


Just FYI:

"Landis has always been regarded as a great field, no hit member of the Go- Go- Sox and that does him an injustice. In an era when center field was known for defense and very few players provided offense from that spot, Landis averaged 82 runs, 64 RBIís and twenty stolen bases between 1958 through 1962. Sure that couldnít compare to Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and "Duke" Snider but it was better then just about anybody else.

And defensively, there was an on going debate among fans, players and the media, if Landis was as good as Mantle and Mays. No less an authority then Mel Allen said he was. When Jim retired after the 1967 season, his fielding percentage was the second best all time in baseball. He was a four time Gold Glove winner and his 1,035 games played in the outfield rank as the Sox all time leader. He made the All Star team in 1962 playing in the game in Washington D.C. and was voted to the White Sox All Century Team at one of the outfield positions. --from Jim's interview with WSI.

LongLiveFisk
04-23-2004, 05:28 PM
I voted for Hoyt Wilhelm! :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-23-2004, 06:00 PM
Personally I feel the hall of fame is meant to honor baseball's greatest ballplayers. So as great as Hoyt Wilhelm was, and doubtlessly a deserving baseball hall-of-famer, his credentials for getting his Sox number retired aren't nearly as strong.

I feel getting your number retired by your team ought to be based on your contribution to the *franchise*, not baseball. By this standard, either Wilbur Wood or Dick Allen would be obvious choices for Sox Fans.

Allen has been credited with SAVING the Sox franchise in the early 70's, a period when the team was all but packed for greener pastures several times. Think about this: there wouldn't be a Sox franchise today if not for Dick Allen. If Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner think that much of Allen, who am I to doubt them?

Wood gave 100 percent of his best years to the Sox franchise, and they were some damned good years, too. Wood was the team's top-reliever like Wilhelm, but seamlessly made the transition to become the top starting pitcher too, something Wilhelm never accomplished. Like Allen, his contributions came when the franchise could easily have collapsed from lack of support.

They're both winners in my book.

idseer
04-23-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Think about this: there wouldn't be a Sox franchise today if not for Dick Allen.


ummm, this is going to need an explanation.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-23-2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ummm, this is going to need an explanation.

Both Sox GM Roland Hemond and manager Chuck Tanner have credited Allen for saving the franchise. I have quotes from both of them elsewhere on the site. You can find these same quotes from several other written sources, too.

TDog
04-23-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
... Think about this: there wouldn't be a Sox franchise today if not for Dick Allen. ...

I don't have to think long before thinking you're probably right.

ShoelessFred
04-24-2004, 12:50 AM
no love for Vance Law