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soxtalker
04-17-2004, 09:18 PM
I was a bit concerned about Frank's batting average (not terribly, though, since it is early.) However, I then noticed that he has about twice as many BB's as hits, and he's among the league leaders. Now, I know that this has been a trademark of Frank for his whole career. It's just good to see.

thepaulbowski
04-17-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I was a bit concerned about Frank's batting average (not terribly, though, since it is early.) However, I then noticed that he has about twice as many BB's as hits, and he's among the league leaders. Now, I know that this has been a trademark of Frank for his whole career. It's just good to see.

His hits will come. It's good to see him being selective with the pitches he is taking. It also shows he's not being selfish by swinging away when he shouldn't be.

JRIG
04-17-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I was a bit concerned about Frank's batting average (not terribly, though, since it is early.) However, I then noticed that he has about twice as many BB's as hits, and he's among the league leaders. Now, I know that this has been a trademark of Frank for his whole career. It's just good to see.

Frank has been having tremendous at bats all year long. Though I do see this as an indication pitchers would much rather face Carlos than Frank with they way they're throwing to him.

JDP
04-17-2004, 09:27 PM
Guess Carlos will just have to make them pay for putting Frank on and pitching to him then eh?

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 09:34 PM
And Maggs is on his way to a monster sized career year with Frank to protect him. Shocking, I know...

And Frank ASKED to bat 4th instead of 3rd. I guess he really isn't a team player...

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
And Maggs is on his way to a monster sized career year with Frank to protect him. Shocking, I know...

And Frank ASKED to bat 4th instead of 3rd. I guess he really isn't a team player...

You've got that right. Just ask Joe Cowley!

Jjav829
04-17-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
And Maggs is on his way to a monster sized career year with Frank to protect him. Shocking, I know...

And Frank ASKED to bat 4th instead of 3rd. I guess he really isn't a team player...

I don't really think it's due to Frank that Maggs has started so hot. I mean Frank right now really isn't hitting at all. He's just doing a great job of walking. So who would you rather face? The guy who has smashed the cover off the ball so far, or the guy who really hasn't hit much of anything? I'd choose the latter.

I don't think they are necessarily pitching around Frank so much as Frank just has a greater ability to draw walks than anyone on this team. Without having any statistics to back this up (and I may be wrong), it seems like Frank has drawn more walks based on working counts. Obviously the 17 pitch at-bat is a prime example of that. Frank's walks aren't like Bonds walks where it's obvious they just don't want to pitch to Bonds because they know anything in the strike zone may be crushed 400 feet. Frank's walks early on seem to have come more as a result of Frank being selective and making contact with anything in the zone.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I don't really think it's due to Frank that Maggs has started so hot. I mean Frank right now really isn't hitting at all. He's just doing a great job of walking. So who would you rather face? The guy who has smashed the cover off the ball so far, or the guy who really hasn't hit much of anything? I'd choose the latter.

I don't think they are necessarily pitching around Frank so much as Frank just has a greater ability to draw walks than anyone on this team. Without having any statistics to back this up (and I may be wrong), it seems like Frank has drawn more walks based on working counts. Obviously the 17 pitch at-bat is a prime example of that. Frank's walks aren't like Bonds walks where it's obvious they just don't want to pitch to Bonds because they know anything in the strike zone may be crushed 400 feet. Frank's walks early on seem to have come more as a result of Frank being selective and making contact with anything in the zone.

Every other guy who batted in front of Frank had a career year (Jose, Carlos, etc.) Now suddenly Maggs is off to an incredibly hot start and it has NOTHING to do with Frank sitting behind him and Maggs seeing more fastballs?

Maybe one reason Frank is walking so much is he doesn't have Maggs protecting him either.

Jjav829
04-17-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Every other guy who batted in front of Frank had a career year (Jose, Carlos, etc.) Now suddenly Maggs is off to an incredibly hot start and it has NOTHING to do with Frank sitting behind him and Maggs seeing more fastballs?

Maybe one reason Frank is walking so much is he doesn't have Maggs protecting him either.

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it, but Maggs is a good player in his own right. Just the fact that he is Magglio Ordonez is good enough to put up monster numbers. He's done it for 5 years batting behind Frank. This isn't something new just because Frank is behind him. Pitchers fear Maggs. They know what he is capable of. I guess I just don't agree with this idea that Frank is the force that is determining what Maggs is doing because is seems to discredit the talent and hitting ability of Maggs. I mean that 0-2 slider that Maggs crushed on Thursday wasn't exactly a get me over fastball because Carrasco feared Frank. Magglio is a good-to-great hitter. He's put up good numbers regardless of who is behind him.

Furthermore, I'm not sure Frank is even a hitter that will alter how a pitcher approaches the batter in front of him anymore. To me, there are a select few great hitters that have that ability. Barry Bonds has it. Albert Pujols has it. Arod would have it if he didn't have such talent around him and I suppose the same can be said of Vlad. Maybe Todd Helton has it. A guy like Bonds has it because he has Marquis Grissom batting in front of him. Grissom isn't exactly striking fear into the hearts of opposing pitches. So if you are a mediocre hitter batting in front of someone like Barry Bonds, then yeah you're going to see a ton of fastballs because the pitcher wants to get you out. But when you're Magglio Ordonez, the pitcher is worrying about you. Not whoever is behind you. He's worried about you because he knows that all it's going to take is one hanging slider or one 4 seamer that misses it's spot or one 2 seamer that doesn't have the break it should and he'll be getting a new ball from the umpire while you circle the bases.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I'm not saying it has nothing to do with it, but Maggs is a good player in his own right. Just the fact that he is Magglio Ordonez is good enough to put up monster numbers. He's done it for 5 years batting behind Frank. This isn't something new just because Frank is behind him. Pitchers fear Maggs. They know what he is capable of. I guess I just don't agree with this idea that Frank is the force that is determining what Maggs is doing because is seems to discredit the talent and hitting ability of Maggs. I mean that 0-2 slider that Maggs crushed on Thursday wasn't exactly a get me over fastball because Carrasco feared Frank. Magglio is a good-to-great hitter. He's put up good numbers regardless of who is behind him.

Furthermore, I'm not sure Frank is even a hitter that will alter how a pitcher approaches the batter in front of him anymore. To me, there are a select few great hitters that have that ability. Barry Bonds has it. Albert Pujols has it. Arod would have it if he didn't have such talent around him and I suppose the same can be said of Vlad. Maybe Todd Helton has it. A guy like Bonds has it because he has Marquis Grissom batting in front of him. Grissom isn't exactly striking fear into the hearts of opposing pitches. So if you are a mediocre hitter batting in front of someone like Barry Bonds, then yeah you're going to see a ton of fastballs because the pitcher wants to get you out. But when you're Magglio Ordonez, the pitcher is worrying about you. Not whoever is behind you. He's worried about you because he knows that all it's going to take is one hanging slider or one 4 seamer that misses it's spot or one 2 seamer that doesn't have the break it should and he'll be getting a new ball from the umpire while you circle the bases.

I never said that Frank is the sole reason Maggs is hot, but he could be part of the reason why Maggs is of to an incredibly hot start.

I also pointed out that maybe on reason Frank wasn't off to a hot start himself (save the walks) was because he no longer had Maggs protecting him.

I think pitchers consider who is coming up next all the time in baseball. Managers and catchers do too and knowing that they will have to face Frank with two or three men on means Maggs gets more fastballs with one or two men on than he might with Carlos or Paulie behind him.

Your point that pitchers fear Maggs actually feeds into that point. Maggs is hot and yet the pitchers don't WANT to be pitcing to him. They simply have no other choice.

VC Edit: BTW, I think to say that pitchers no longer fear pitching to Frank and his .983 OPS or whatever last year is bad logic. No one wants to pitch to Frank, ever. That hasn't changed...

RKMeibalane
04-17-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
VC Edit: BTW, I think to say that pitchers no longer fear pitching to Frank and his .983 OPS or whatever last year is bad logic. No one wants to pitch to Frank, ever. That hasn't changed...

I agree. The fact that pitchers are pitching around Frank even though he hasn't gotten hot yet is proof that he's still feared. He has had several four or five pitch walks the past few days. Tampa especially has been doing their best to avoid pitching to him.

Frank's timing isn't quite where it will be later in the season. I've been surprised that pitchers aren't just going after him. I would if I were in their shoes. :D:

Jjav829
04-18-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
VC Edit: BTW, I think to say that pitchers no longer fear pitching to Frank and his .983 OPS or whatever last year is bad logic. No one wants to pitch to Frank, ever. That hasn't changed...

O don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they want to pitch to him or that they don't realize he can do some damage against them, I'm saying Frank is no longer the type of force that makes pitchers always think about him. Bonds is that. Pitchers always have him in the back of their mind and always know how soon he's going to be up. He's that dominant of a hitter. Frank isn't. In fact, I'd even say I shouldn't put Pujols, Arod, Helton, etc. on the level of Bonds as far as intimidation. Those other guys don't have that same fear level to where the pitcher is always thinking about them, even though they are great hitters.

Frank doesn't have that effect. He probably had it to a good extent in the early 90's where pitchers had a tough time pitching to Frank and getting him out. There were probably some times where pitchers were thinking about how many batters it was until Frank is up. But not anymore. He's no longer a force that can change a pitchers mentality that much, especially with a hitter of Magglio's stature batting in front of him. If that pitcher isn't fully thinking about Maggs during the at-bat, another run will be on the board.

voodoochile
04-18-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
O don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they want to pitch to him or that they don't realize he can do some damage against them, I'm saying Frank is no longer the type of force that makes pitchers always think about him. Bonds is that. Pitchers always have him in the back of their mind and always know how soon he's going to be up. He's that dominant of a hitter. Frank isn't. In fact, I'd even say I shouldn't put Pujols, Arod, Helton, etc. on the level of Bonds as far as intimidation. Those other guys don't have that same fear level to where the pitcher is always thinking about them, even though they are great hitters.

Frank doesn't have that effect. He probably had it to a good extent in the early 90's where pitchers had a tough time pitching to Frank and getting him out. There were probably some times where pitchers were thinking about how many batters it was until Frank is up. But not anymore. He's no longer a force that can change a pitchers mentality that much, especially with a hitter of Magglio's stature batting in front of him. If that pitcher isn't fully thinking about Maggs during the at-bat, another run will be on the board.

I agree about Maggs being dangerous, but I still disagree that how he gets pitched changes with Frank behind him instead of Carlos or Konerko. In fact, I think it is almost obvious that Maggs is getting more fastballs this year and that they are giving Frank more junk. Just my observation, I could be wrong.

I remember last year the opposite was true. There was a stretch of time where the pitchers just wouldn't pitch to Maggs because there was no one behind him to fear. Now there is.

BTW, I was wrong. Frank only had a .952 OPS last year. Maggs was .926. Not a huge difference, but it does prove my point. If Maggs is dangerous than Frank is deadly...