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SEALgep
04-17-2004, 02:41 PM
On another board, they are saying Bruce Levine reported the Sox have an offer on the table to Maggs for four years at $58 million.

That's good money, maybe even too much, but not the years. Could the money balance the years? Maggs has said before that it wouldn't. We'll see, but that's supposedly where it's at now.

Cubbiesuck13
04-17-2004, 02:42 PM
why would they not give him a 5th year? Tell me, what is the downside of having a superstart for one extra year, even if he is on the decline?

Joel Perez
04-17-2004, 02:45 PM
Why do the Sox not offer Mags an option year on the 5th year?

4yrs @ 58 mil = 14.5 mil per. Why not offer Year 5 at an option at 16 mil?

He has about 5-7 good to great years left in him anyway, IMO.

SEALgep
04-17-2004, 02:48 PM
Maybe they are still talking about it, Bruce Levine isn't always a good source. I'm just saying what others have said to have heard him say. The Sox like to keep things on the down low, so who even knows how accurate this is. I wouldn't panic as of yet. I'm sure other scenerios are being discussed. Who knows though, maybe his agent likes this deal and is going back to Maggs with it. Too early to tell as of yet.

SoxxoS
04-17-2004, 02:53 PM
If he doesn't take that offer...then I'm sorry...get out.

SEALgep
04-17-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If he doesn't take that offer...then I'm sorry...get out. Fifth year or not, I would hope people don't view this as JR as being cheap. This is certainly a nice size contract. Although there will be conspiracy thoeries (like with Colon) who will say that he is purposely offering four years just so Maggs will decline and he will not look like the bad guy. Please people, don't be that guy.

batmanZoSo
04-17-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Fifth year or not, I would hope people don't view this as JR as being cheap. This is certainly a nice size contract. Although there will be conspiracy thoeries (like with Colon) who will say that he is purposely offering four years just so Maggs will decline and he will not look like the bad guy. Please people, don't be that guy.

If this is all true, then anyone who buys Maggs being the bad guy is a moron.

MRKARNO
04-17-2004, 04:02 PM
I think if you have this deal (4 years 58 mil) and then tack on a 5th year option at 16 mil and he doesnt accept then he needs to pack up and leave. Vlad only got 13 mil a year over 5 years in his deal in this market. Maggs is getting real iffy at over 14 mil, but a 5 yr 70 million dollar deal would be well worth it (14 a year).

Edit:

I really dont mind that we're able to spend this much on a hitter, but I fear Reinsdorf is going to remind us that we can't get anyone for the next 4-5 years because we demanded that Maggs get resigned. But if we can act like a league average team or better in terms of salary then I say pay him what he wants

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 04:29 PM
It's a negotiation. You don't give away your best offer off the bat because you need to find middle ground, thus you have to give yourself room to make a better deal. Just because they won't offer 5 years today doesn't mean they won't offer 5 years next month.

CubKiller5
04-17-2004, 05:50 PM
He's NOT worth 58/4 !

I've never seen such an inflated player by SOX fans in my life!
He's not a major SB threat, he's not a CF, & his offense production is no better or worse over the past 3 yrs than Sweeney.

There are at least 20 players ranked ahead of him in MLB.
Realistically Maggs should be paid not a penny more than the
top qtr of players ranked 21-30 in MLB.

As of 2003 rankings here's his crowd:
Maggs, Gerald, Stewart, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Posada
Beltran, Ortiz, E Martinez, Guillen, M Giles, L Gonzo, Thome,
Walker, C Jones, R Hidalgo, R Sexson, S Rolen, E Renteria, J Bagwell.

That's the crowd where Maggs ranks. I believe Maggs is worth the avg of the top quarter of this crowd. But his pay should be reflected of what these players would be worth in a new contract today & not the inflated prices of prior yrs.

Sweeney's above this crowd & making 11MIL for KCR. I'd say Maggs is worth no more than 12 MIL.

gosox41
04-17-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
On another board, they are saying Bruce Levine reported the Sox have an offer on the table to Maggs for four years at $58 million.

That's good money, maybe even too much, but not the years. Could the money balance the years? Maggs has said before that it wouldn't. We'll see, but that's supposedly where it's at now.

That's a more then generous contract. $14.5 mill is more then Vlad is averaging per season. No offense to Magglio, but Vlad is a better player.

If Vlad gets $13.5 on average for 5 years then IMHO Magglio should get $12.5 mill to $13 mill. No reason to pay him more then Vlad until he plays better then Vlad for an extended period (which he has yet to do). If I were the Sox I would have never offered Magglio more then Vlad. If I were JR I would look to settle on a 5 year deal worth about $65 mill. or 4 years at $52 mill.


Bob

batmanZoSo
04-17-2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
He's NOT worth 58/4 !

I've never seen such an inflated player by SOX fans in my life!
He's not a major SB threat, he's not a CF, & his offense production is no better or worse over the past 3 yrs than Sweeney.

There are at least 20 players ranked ahead of him in MLB.
Realistically Maggs should be paid not a penny more than the
top qtr of players ranked 21-30 in MLB.

As of 2003 rankings here's his crowd:
Maggs, Gerald, Stewart, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Posada
Beltran, Ortiz, E Martinez, Guillen, M Giles, L Gonzo, Thome,
Walker, C Jones, R Hidalgo, R Sexson, S Rolen, E Renteria, J Bagwell.

That's the crowd where Maggs ranks. I believe Maggs is worth the avg of the top quarter of this crowd. But his pay should be reflected of what these players would be worth in a new contract today & not the inflated prices of prior yrs.

Sweeney's above this crowd & making 11MIL for KCR. I'd say Maggs is worth no more than 12 MIL.

Jose Offerman? Mientkiewicz of 10 home runs? Uh...yeah.

Magglio is better than Sweeney. That's not a good comparison.

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
[b] As of 2003 rankings here's his crowd:
Maggs, Gerald, Stewart, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Posada
Beltran, Ortiz, E Martinez, Guillen, M Giles, L Gonzo, Thome,
Walker, C Jones, R Hidalgo, R Sexson, S Rolen, E Renteria, J Bagwell.

Some background, according to baseballreference.com ...
--Magglio averages 114 RBI per 162-game season.

1. I don't know who Gerald is.

2. Stewart: Averages 45 fewer RBI per season.

3. Mientkiewicz: Averages 45 fewer RBI per season.

4. Offerman: Aside from being retired, he averages 59 fewer RBI per season.

5. Pena: (assuming you mean Tony) Aside from being retired, he averaged 56 fewer RBI per season.

I'm not gonna bother continuing this. While Magglio's value may be inflated, your claim is silly.

SEALgep
04-17-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
It's a negotiation. You don't give away your best offer off the bat because you need to find middle ground, thus you have to give yourself room to make a better deal. Just because they won't offer 5 years today doesn't mean they won't offer 5 years next month. Good point, JR negotiates and is very good at it. I don't mind that being the case.

MRKARNO
04-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
He's NOT worth 58/4 !

I've never seen such an inflated player by SOX fans in my life!
He's not a major SB threat, he's not a CF, & his offense production is no better or worse over the past 3 yrs than Sweeney.

There are at least 20 players ranked ahead of him in MLB.
Realistically Maggs should be paid not a penny more than the
top qtr of players ranked 21-30 in MLB.

As of 2003 rankings here's his crowd:
Maggs, Gerald, Stewart, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Posada
Beltran, Ortiz, E Martinez, Guillen, M Giles, L Gonzo, Thome,
Walker, C Jones, R Hidalgo, R Sexson, S Rolen, E Renteria, J Bagwell.

That's the crowd where Maggs ranks. I believe Maggs is worth the avg of the top quarter of this crowd. But his pay should be reflected of what these players would be worth in a new contract today & not the inflated prices of prior yrs.

Sweeney's above this crowd & making 11MIL for KCR. I'd say Maggs is worth no more than 12 MIL.

What are you smoking? NONE of the players except Thome have been as good as Maggs over the past three years (and I'm basing this off VORP, BP's stat which deterimines value over a AAAA type player), that includes Beltran, Posada, Hildalgo, Sexson, Ortiz.

And offerman and Peņa? What the hell are you talking about? Maggs in 2002 was one of the best players in baseball and he has been perfectly consistant the past 5 years. Give him 5 years at whatever the hell he wants

SEALgep
04-17-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
He's NOT worth 58/4 !

I've never seen such an inflated player by SOX fans in my life!
He's not a major SB threat, he's not a CF, & his offense production is no better or worse over the past 3 yrs than Sweeney.

There are at least 20 players ranked ahead of him in MLB.
Realistically Maggs should be paid not a penny more than the
top qtr of players ranked 21-30 in MLB.

As of 2003 rankings here's his crowd:
Maggs, Gerald, Stewart, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Posada
Beltran, Ortiz, E Martinez, Guillen, M Giles, L Gonzo, Thome,
Walker, C Jones, R Hidalgo, R Sexson, S Rolen, E Renteria, J Bagwell.

That's the crowd where Maggs ranks. I believe Maggs is worth the avg of the top quarter of this crowd. But his pay should be reflected of what these players would be worth in a new contract today & not the inflated prices of prior yrs.

Sweeney's above this crowd & making 11MIL for KCR. I'd say Maggs is worth no more than 12 MIL. Maybe Maggs isn't worth it, but if you think he isn't more valuable than Stewart, Gerald, Mientkiewicz, Offerman, Pena, Ortiz, Martinez (too old), Guillen, Giles, Gonzo, than you're crazy. The others you could possibly make a case for being up there with, with the exception of Beltran (who I would be willing to make the same offer to), but I wouldn't say they are worth more than Maggs or even the same.

batmanZoSo
04-17-2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox


4. Offerman: Aside from being retired, he averages 59 fewer RBI per season.


LMAO post of the year...

Lip Man 1
04-17-2004, 11:51 PM
Ummmm...Jose Offerman is not retired. He's with the Twins, on the big league roster.

Lip

Jjav829
04-18-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox

1. I don't know who Gerald is.


I'm still trying to figure this one out. My best guess is he meant Jody Gerut. If that's not it then I'm lost.

CubKiller5
04-18-2004, 09:28 PM
Maggs had a less than stellar year in 2003.

It's a large group so I'm not going to get into specifics.
But Maggs performance in 2003 was in line with the rest of the names mentioned.

Let's look at it in more detail:
Top 10 in AL 2003:
Delgado TOR, Ramirez BOS, ARod TEX,
Nixon BOS, Giambi NYY, Thomas CHW,
Mueller BOS, Posada NYY, Beltran KCR,
Ortiz BOS

Top 10 in NL 2003:
Bonds SFG, Pujols STL, Helton COL
Sheffield ATL, Giles SDP, Edmonds STL
Berkman HOU, Giles ATL, LGon ARI,
Thome PHI

All of these players OUTPERFORMED Maggs in 2003.
Nxt 20 in AL 2003:

Maggs CHW, Martinez SEA, Guillen OAK
Wells TOR, Boone SEA, Huff TBD
Mient MIN, Young DET, Jeter NYY
Everett CHW

Nxt 20 in NL 2003:
Walker COL, Jones ATL, Hidalgo HOU
Sexson MIL, Rolen STL, Renteria STL
Bagwell HOU, Vidro MTL, Abreu PHI
Jenkins MIL,

Maggs best year to date is 2002.
There were only 14 players that OUTPERFORMED him.

Bagwell signed a contract in 2000 that now pays him 16 MIL.
There were only 9 players that outperformed him.

Hildago makes 12.5 MIL. His numbers are very close to Maggs in 2003. His best year (2000) was about 7% better than Maggs (2002).

Bagwell is clearly over paid now as he's never cracked the top 10 since but he's making top 10 $. His numbers now are below Maggs.

The point of all this is WHY risk overpaying Maggs when the numbers suggest:
1) He hit his career peak in 2002. (7% better than 2003)
2) His peak was still no better than 15th that year.
3) 4 out of the last 5 years at least 20 players have outperformed him.

What is a RF with below avg speed that consistently ranks near 20th in MLB each year worth?

CubKiller5
04-19-2004, 04:23 PM
Multi-million dollar contracts are reserved for the sluggers amongst position players. Where does Maggs rank in that category?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2003&seasonType=2&sort=slugAvg&type=reg&ageMin=0&ageMax=99&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all
19th: 2003
08th: 2002
39th: 2001
32nd: 2000

Where does Thomas rank?
10th: 2000
DLed:2001
nt40: 2002 (non-top 40 the yr he came off DL)
14th: 2003

So ask yourself this .. who is likely to finish ahead in slugging this year?

2004: only SOX player in top 40 : Valentin

Maggs deserves no better than to be the 20th highest paid position player in the game. I hope Kenny realizes his error with Koney & doesn't make another.

wdelaney72
04-19-2004, 04:43 PM
Too bad there aren't any solid postseason stats to see how valuable he is in the postseason.

I love Maggs, but that's seems like an overly generous offer.

CHISOXFAN13
04-19-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Ummmm...Jose Offerman is not retired. He's with the Twins, on the big league roster.

Lip

In fact, I saw Offerman hitting cleanup for the Twinkies the other night.

If that's the case, then maybe this guy is right in his claim.

hold2dibber
04-19-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Multi-million dollar contracts are reserved for the sluggers amongst position players. Where does Maggs rank in that category?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&league=mlb&season=2003&seasonType=2&sort=slugAvg&type=reg&ageMin=0&ageMax=99&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all
19th: 2003
08th: 2002
39th: 2001
32nd: 2000

Where does Thomas rank?
10th: 2000
DLed:2001
nt40: 2002 (non-top 40 the yr he came off DL)
14th: 2003

So ask yourself this .. who is likely to finish ahead in slugging this year?

2004: only SOX player in top 40 : Valentin

Maggs deserves no better than to be the 20th highest paid position player in the game. I hope Kenny realizes his error with Koney & doesn't make another.

I tend to agree with your overall point (that paying Maggs 1/4 of the team's payroll could be a mistake), but some of the stats/arguments you're relying on are ridiculous. You determine worth based on slugging percentage (exclusively)? Why? OBP is a much more important stat. And comparing Maggs with Minetkorvichmusckovicz and Offerman is absurd.

Take a look at Maggs' 162-game averages as compared to three other premier RFers who all have about the same amount of MLB experience (6 or so years):

Abreu: 22 HRs, 91 RBI, .919 OPS, 27 SBs ($12.8 million/year)
Giles: 32 HR, 105 RBI, .973 OPS, 11 SBs ($9 million/year)
Vlad: 38 HR, 113 RBI, .976 OPS, 20 SBs ($14 million/year)
Maggs: 31 HRs, 114 RBIs, .893 OPS, 14 SBs (?)

Based on this, it seems to me that Maggs' market value is probably somwhere in the $12 to $13 million/year range. Maybe he gets a little extra for consistency and for an excellent track record in terms of health. In any event, $14.5 million/year seems overly generous. If the payroll stays at $65 million next year and the Sox are paying Maggs $14.5 million, it's going to be hard for them to retain Loaiza and/or to find a SS and/or to find another quality starter.

Scotty347
04-19-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
That's a more then generous contract. $14.5 mill is more then Vlad is averaging per season. No offense to Magglio, but Vlad is a better player.



I lost a lot of respect for Vlad over the weekend when he did that Sammy Sosa "hop" out of the batters box when hitting that home run and again on a fly out to left. Thats bad news!

Nick@Nite
04-19-2004, 09:31 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=1785449

I'm in the "just give Maggs what he wants" category...

CubKiller5
04-20-2004, 03:08 PM
I saw your argument in comparing Maggs to other prominent RFers & suggesting he's worth 12-13 MIL. I disagree.

The best way to prove this is to look at the players you mentioned a month to month basis over that time. Not 6 yrs. We all know from the Freak show on the N Sider that overall numbers can be misleading.
Sosa's numbers month to month are not HOF. He has his monster months & he has his crap months. Not unlike Koney.

The point of investing in Maggs long term is 2 fold:
1) How does it contribute to winning
2) How does it contribute to profit

That's the bottom line.

It's too much work to compare 6 yrs as well as a pointless assessment. Jeff Bagwell had a monster yr in 2000. MVP candidate.
He's never come close to that production since.

The best tool of comparison is the 3 yr avg to determine what the player is expected to do in the future. Especially when they are near 30 yrs of age.

3yr avg per month: OPS
Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep
1049, 1053, 1012, 986 ,1170, 850 Sosa (16.9 MIL 04)
864, 1052, 1027, 1070, 922, 1057 Giles (8.6 MIL 04)
966, 931, 1015, 1102, 1033, 925 Vlad (11 MIL 04)
1043,960, 1129, 1019, 920, 1001 Walker (12.7 MIL 04)

951, 922, 953, 1016, 1134, 827 Sheffield (12 MIL 04)
877, 835, 995, 1050, 935, 941 Maggs (14 MIL 04)
836, 838, 1036, 917, 903, 938 Abreu (10.6 MIL 04)

914, 978, 1167, 712, 826, 825 Sweeney (11.5 MIL 04)
743, 819, 818, 891, 955, 947 Beltran (9 MIL 04)
800, 755, 961, 1052, 779, 913 Nixon (4.5 MIL 04)

892, 822, 915, 745, 739, 970 Hidalgo (12.5 MIL 04)
758, 822, 682, 908, 834, 829 Jones (4.5 MIL 04)
651, 771, 677, 699, 955, 761 Dye (11.7 MIL 04)

Maggs is the 6th best in OPS month to month.
He is also the highest paid.

I agree that his true value is 12MIL based on this list.
That is why I feel a 60/5 is a good take it or leave it deal.
But based on progression over the past 3 yrs, Beltran
at 55/5 would be a much better deal.

The list shows both the pros & cons of these salaries.
Sosa overpaid, Giles is a steal, Vlad is a bargain
& Walker is priced right.

Sheffield is costly, Maggs is overpaid, & Abreu is priced right.
Sweeney is costly, Beltran is a bargain, & Nixon is a steal.
Hidalgo is way overpaid, Jones is a steal, & Dye is the worst.

What we know is that Vlad, Maggs, Beltran, & Jones will be FA's.
Does it make sense to make Maggs the 2nd highest paid RF in the game, or should the SOX spend that money on quality lower cost
alternatives in Jones or Beltran?

In my opinion either Beltran or Jones is a better investment.

hold2dibber
04-20-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
I saw your argument in comparing Maggs to other prominent RFers & suggesting he's worth 12-13 MIL. I disagree.

The best way to prove this is to look at the players you mentioned a month to month basis over that time. Not 6 yrs. We all know from the Freak show on the N Sider that overall numbers can be misleading.
Sosa's numbers month to month are not HOF. He has his monster months & he has his crap months. Not unlike Koney.

The point of investing in Maggs long term is 2 fold:
1) How does it contribute to winning
2) How does it contribute to profit

That's the bottom line.

It's too much work to compare 6 yrs as well as a pointless assessment. Jeff Bagwell had a monster yr in 2000. MVP candidate.
He's never come close to that production since.

The best tool of comparison is the 3 yr avg to determine what the player is expected to do in the future. Especially when they are near 30 yrs of age.

3yr avg per month: OPS
Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep
1049, 1053, 1012, 986 ,1170, 850 Sosa (16.9 MIL 04)
864, 1052, 1027, 1070, 922, 1057 Giles (8.6 MIL 04)
966, 931, 1015, 1102, 1033, 925 Vlad (11 MIL 04)
1043,960, 1129, 1019, 920, 1001 Walker (12.7 MIL 04)

951, 922, 953, 1016, 1134, 827 Sheffield (12 MIL 04)
877, 835, 995, 1050, 935, 941 Maggs (14 MIL 04)
836, 838, 1036, 917, 903, 938 Abreu (10.6 MIL 04)

914, 978, 1167, 712, 826, 825 Sweeney (11.5 MIL 04)
743, 819, 818, 891, 955, 947 Beltran (9 MIL 04)
800, 755, 961, 1052, 779, 913 Nixon (4.5 MIL 04)

892, 822, 915, 745, 739, 970 Hidalgo (12.5 MIL 04)
758, 822, 682, 908, 834, 829 Jones (4.5 MIL 04)
651, 771, 677, 699, 955, 761 Dye (11.7 MIL 04)

Maggs is the 6th best in OPS month to month.
He is also the highest paid.

I agree that his true value is 12MIL based on this list.
That is why I feel a 60/5 is a good take it or leave it deal.
But based on progression over the past 3 yrs, Beltran
at 55/5 would be a much better deal.

The list shows both the pros & cons of these salaries.
Sosa overpaid, Giles is a steal, Vlad is a bargain
& Walker is priced right.

Sheffield is costly, Maggs is overpaid, & Abreu is priced right.
Sweeney is costly, Beltran is a bargain, & Nixon is a steal.
Hidalgo is way overpaid, Jones is a steal, & Dye is the worst.

What we know is that Vlad, Maggs, Beltran, & Jones will be FA's.
Does it make sense to make Maggs the 2nd highest paid RF in the game, or should the SOX spend that money on quality lower cost
alternatives in Jones or Beltran?

In my opinion either Beltran or Jones is a better investment.

I'm not sure that I buy into the "month-to-month" averages being the best way to guage worth - and I suspect that if you simply took overall OPS for the last 3 years for the same players, the rankings would be nearly identical. But, again, we agree that Maggs' market value is probably around $12 million/year. But I'll also say that Beltran will get more than Maggs as a FA. I don't think there's anyway in hell that the Sox could get him for 5/55. He's young, he plays CF, he is a legitimate 5-tool player. He'll get closer to 5 years/$70 or $75 million. As for Jones (I assume we're talking about Jacque and not Andruw or Chipper), he's a far cry from Maggs. I don't think he's a steal at $4.5 million - I think that's about what his market value is. But if Maggs were to walk, I'd rather give RF to Reed and use the money on pitching than to sign Jones.

CubKiller5
04-22-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'm not sure that I buy into the "month-to-month" averages being the best way to guage worth - and I suspect that if you simply took overall OPS for the last 3 years for the same players, the rankings would be nearly identical. But, again, we agree that Maggs' market value is probably around $12 million/year. But I'll also say that Beltran will get more than Maggs as a FA. I don't think there's anyway in hell that the Sox could get him for 5/55. He's young, he plays CF, he is a legitimate 5-tool player. He'll get closer to 5 years/$70 or $75 million. As for Jones (I assume we're talking about Jacque and not Andruw or Chipper), he's a far cry from Maggs. I don't think he's a steal at $4.5 million - I think that's about what his market value is. But if Maggs were to walk, I'd rather give RF to Reed and use the money on pitching than to sign Jones.

The M2M avg is the best way to measure worth because it weeds out players like Konerko who typically have hot & cold months every year. The hot months make his season avg look better than it is.
But they don't help the team win more games. His cold months play a bigger role in loses than his hot months do in wins. Most players are like that & it's the M2M consistent performers who separate themselves from the rest. These are the guys who deserve to be paid more than the rest.

In terms of what Beltran is likely to get comes down again to
what the haves are willing to spend: Mets, Yankee$, Orioles,
Angels, Red Sox, & Dodgers. Because the other 24 teams will not
go higher than 60/5. This is an up & coming player who has yet
to finish in the top 5 in MVP voting.

For the numbers J Jones has put up the past 3 years he's worth
more than 4.5 MIL. But I agree with the SOX OF depth if Reed is ready it would be better to go with him.

The SOX should not be in the business of making decision on what 6 clubs out of 30 are willing to pay for a player. That isn't fair market value. Fair market value is the average of what all 30 teams would be willing to pay.

jlh0023
04-22-2004, 05:25 PM
I must admit that I fall under the 'pay him what he wants' category too. But I don't want to get into talking $'s. However, the people you are comparing maggs to are disgusting. Those lists that you gather, what are they based on HR's. Maggs brings more than just plain stats. He is a team leader, he is consistent, he hits well in the clutch, he puts up solid numbers all around, he has decent speed/defensive ability, and he's a fan favorite. All these things make him worth the investment. No signs say he is declining in his career, and having him in right field puts the few asses we have in the seats. It's outrageous how poorly you rate him!

RafaelC
04-22-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I'm still trying to figure this one out. My best guess is he meant Jody Gerut. If that's not it then I'm lost.

Maybe it's Gerald Williams who played for the D-Rays, Braves...and i think he is retired.

RedPinStripes
04-22-2004, 07:10 PM
If this is a Jerry contract, we all know there's a catch. They'll report that they offered 58 mill over 4 years, but they wont reveal all the incentives int eh contract and that Magglio has to be within the top 10 of MVP votings, has to play 150 games, hit at least 30 HR and all the other crap Jerry adds in his ****ty contract offers to big players. Ask Frank Thomas, Batrolo Colon and Mark Buehrle witht he hell he went through before finally geting his deal.

I highly doubt it's as simple as it sounds. If magglio turns it down because of incentives, the Sox will make Magglio look like the ******* and say "He didnt want to be here".

:reinsy
"RPS YOU BASTARD!"

soxtalker
04-22-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
If this is a Jerry contract, we all know there's a catch. They'll report that they offered 58 mill over 4 years, but they wont reveal all the incentives int eh contract and that Magglio has to be within the top 10 of MVP votings, has to play 150 games, hit at least 30 HR and all the other crap Jerry adds in his ****ty contract offers to big players. Ask Frank Thomas, Batrolo Colon and Mark Buehrle witht he hell he went through before finally geting his deal.

I highly doubt it's as simple as it sounds. If magglio turns it down because of incentives, the Sox will make Magglio look like the ******* and say "He didnt want to be here".

:reinsy
"RPS YOU BASTARD!"

I see no problem with JR putting in these sort of option clauses. That's negotiation. If Maggs thinks that he can do better elsewhere, so be it. It is perfectly reasonable for JR to minimize his (or he perceives is his) risk. I wish that he'd had these sort of clauses with a few other players (e.g., Koch and Konerko).

RedPinStripes
04-22-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I see no problem with JR putting in these sort of option clauses. That's negotiation. If Maggs thinks that he can do better elsewhere, so be it. It is perfectly reasonable for JR to minimize his (or he perceives is his) risk. I wish that he'd had these sort of clauses with a few other players (e.g., Koch and Konerko).

Better go see Maggs while you can then . Why would anyone take a contract like that when they can get it guarenteed from Stienbrenner?

OurBitchinMinny
04-22-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Cubbiesuck13
why would they not give him a 5th year? Tell me, what is the downside of having a superstart for one extra year, even if he is on the decline?


I agree...He has 7-8 solid years left in him. Bonds is 40 and look what hes doing. Hell give him a 6th year if he wants it. If they lose him, JR better run for the hills, or else replace him damn well

SEALgep
04-22-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
I agree...He has 7-8 solid years left in him. Bonds is 40 and look what hes doing. Hell give him a 6th year if he wants it. If they lose him, JR better run for the hills, or else replace him damn well I agree that we should give him a fifth year, but comparing him to Bonds isn't exactly fair unless Maggs gets on a similar juicing program throughout his late 30's.

CubKiller5
04-23-2004, 07:16 PM
The over-rating of Maggs continues I see. So now you are comparing him to Bonds I see. What a joke.

By his production alone he is worth 11-13. Not 14-15.
These are just simple facts.

There is no evidence that he is going to get better & every sign that he will get worse. We are not talking about a sure-thing prospect here.
We are basically talking about an over-acheiver. His skill-level was not predicted.

Right now Beltran is ranked 6th & Maggs is ranked 42nd in OPS.
That's the way it is in 2004. All the names mentioned above are outperforming Maggs. It sure looks like evidence of a decline to me.

Kenny is best to wait until the break to decide on this one.

MRKARNO
04-23-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
The over-rating of Maggs continues I see. So now you are comparing him to Bonds I see. What a joke.

By his production alone he is worth 11-13. Not 14-15.
These are just simple facts.

There is no evidence that he is going to get better & every sign that he will get worse. We are not talking about a sure-thing prospect here.
We are basically talking about an over-acheiver. His skill-level was not predicted.

Right now Beltran is ranked 6th & Maggs is ranked 42nd in OPS.
That's the way it is in 2004. All the names mentioned above are outperforming Maggs. It sure looks like evidence of a decline to me.

Kenny is best to wait until the break to decide on this one.

Well if you advocating trying to sign Beltran instead of Maggs I say this to you: Unlike Beltran we actually have a chance to sign Maggs to a long-term deal.

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well if you advocating trying to sign Beltran instead of Maggs I say this to you: Unlike Beltran we actually have a chance to sign Maggs to a long-term deal.

What do you expect Beltran to sign for & what do you expect Maggs to sign for? I believe Beltran can be had for 12 MIL a yr but more yrs.
So let's say 72/6. Whereas Maggs won't expect anything less than 14 MIL a yr.

jabrch
04-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If he doesn't take that offer...then I'm sorry...get out.

AND BE QUICK ABOUT IT YOU WORTHLESS JAGOFF

I agree SoxxoS. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that offer. If it is true, and if Magglio doesn't take it, he never had ANY intention of staying here to begin with. If that's the case, we ought to be looking into good trade opportunities - he should bring a few PRIZE PROSPECTS if we wanted to trade him.

jabrch
04-25-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Better go see Maggs while you can then . Why would anyone take a contract like that when they can get it guarenteed from Stienbrenner?

Steinbrenner deferred money last year also to Sheffield for sure, and I think also to Javier Vazquez. As far as the incentives go - Nowhere did I see it reported that this was a heavily incentive laden deal. None of the deals that JR has signed people to so far were incentive laden - for the most part. Only the DSC in Thomas' contract. I know JR is a dispicable owner - and the main reason for much of our problems, but in this case, I can't see blaming him until we know the facts.

jabrch
04-25-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
What do you expect Beltran to sign for & what do you expect Maggs to sign for? I believe Beltran can be had for 12 MIL a yr but more yrs.
So let's say 72/6. Whereas Maggs won't expect anything less than 14 MIL a yr.

If those are my two choices, I'd take Beltran in a heartbeat. I like Magglio a lot - but for 3mm per year less, I'd take the better player.

Mohoney
04-26-2004, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Maggs had a less than stellar year in 2003.

It's a large group so I'm not going to get into specifics.
But Maggs performance in 2003 was in line with the rest of the names mentioned.

Let's look at it in more detail:
Top 10 in AL 2003:
Delgado TOR, Ramirez BOS, ARod TEX,
Nixon BOS, Giambi NYY, Thomas CHW,
Mueller BOS, Posada NYY, Beltran KCR,
Ortiz BOS

Top 10 in NL 2003:
Bonds SFG, Pujols STL, Helton COL
Sheffield ATL, Giles SDP, Edmonds STL
Berkman HOU, Giles ATL, LGon ARI,
Thome PHI

All of these players OUTPERFORMED Maggs in 2003.
Nxt 20 in AL 2003:

Maggs CHW, Martinez SEA, Guillen OAK
Wells TOR, Boone SEA, Huff TBD
Mient MIN, Young DET, Jeter NYY
Everett CHW

Nxt 20 in NL 2003:
Walker COL, Jones ATL, Hidalgo HOU
Sexson MIL, Rolen STL, Renteria STL
Bagwell HOU, Vidro MTL, Abreu PHI
Jenkins MIL,

Maggs best year to date is 2002.
There were only 14 players that OUTPERFORMED him.

Bagwell signed a contract in 2000 that now pays him 16 MIL.
There were only 9 players that outperformed him.

Hildago makes 12.5 MIL. His numbers are very close to Maggs in 2003. His best year (2000) was about 7% better than Maggs (2002).

Bagwell is clearly over paid now as he's never cracked the top 10 since but he's making top 10 $. His numbers now are below Maggs.

The point of all this is WHY risk overpaying Maggs when the numbers suggest:
1) He hit his career peak in 2002. (7% better than 2003)
2) His peak was still no better than 15th that year.
3) 4 out of the last 5 years at least 20 players have outperformed him.

What is a RF with below avg speed that consistently ranks near 20th in MLB each year worth?

Maggs was 4th in the AL in batting! That's not stellar?

Plus, he was close enough to 30-100 last year to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Remember, Frank hit 42 long ones last year, and that took away some RBI chances. D'Angelo leading off also didn't help.

He's done everything I could want at the plate for about a half-decade now. Re-sign him NOW!

mdep524
04-26-2004, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
If those are my two choices, I'd take Beltran in a heartbeat. I like Magglio a lot - but for 3mm per year less, I'd take the better player.

Have to agree. I love Maggs, but all things equal you have to take Beltran. That's almost certainly not going to happen though, so the more relevant question is why do we need big money invested in two corner outfielders: Maggs AND Carlos? Maggs is clearly the better and more important of the two, so we should lock up Maggs and trade Carlos. With the salaries of Carlos, Koch, Valentin and Konerko (after '05) off the books after this year, it really should be no problem to lock up Magglio--or even Beltran for that matter.