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Fungo
04-16-2004, 09:50 AM
From Joe Cowley's column in today's Daily Southtown...

The 35-year-old veteran would like the White Sox organization to tear up his contract as soon as the season is over and give him one that he says would show him the "respect" he believes he has earned as a long-time, productive member of the team.

it's a little disappointing come the 1st and 15th this year (pay day)

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/161sd1.htm

davidleeroth
04-16-2004, 10:42 AM
why is it that every season this HAS to happen? honestly, i dont know what the guy makes but i presume it's somewhere in the $5-6 million range and that's pretty damn good for a mid-30s guy that doesnt play the field and can't run who only hits around .265 these days.

IlliniSox
04-16-2004, 10:45 AM
Does this guy know what it means to take a damn pen in your hand and write your name on a contract? YOU MADE A DEAL, now shut up and play!

StepsInSC
04-16-2004, 10:51 AM
sigh...sheesh Frank. You're making it hard to blindly worship you.

WinningUgly!
04-16-2004, 10:51 AM
Thomas said he'd like to end his career with the Sox.

"I'm going to continue to bust my (butt) and do things so that I can find a way to stay here."

Thomas was adamant in pointing out that winning the World Series this year is atop his priority list, with the hope the club will talk to him at the end of the year about a new deal, as they said they would.

"My job is to pull these guys together, keep a happy face and keep this thing going for us, because I have a feeling it's going to be a special year. All I'm looking for now is a ring. All the individual stuff, I could care less about now, and for the first time it comes from my heart when I say that. I could care less when it comes to my numbers."

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Fungo
From Joe Cowley's column in today's Daily Southtown...




It seems like you're the one doing the whining here. In defense of Cowley, he only quotes Frank. If he did so taking Frank out of context I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. Cowley lives on the edge in that department.

You on the other hand have entertained us with a lovely bit of graphical work.

:whiner:

Is it too late for us to administer last rites?

Fungo
04-16-2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It seems like you're the one doing the whining here. In defense of Cowley, he only quotes Frank. If he did so taking Frank out of context I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. Cowley lives on the edge in that department.

You on the other hand have entertained us with a lovely bit of graphical work.

:whiner:

Is it too late for us to administer last rites?
George~

I wish I could take credit for the "graphical art", but that cartoon came out the last time Frank was whinning about only making 5 million a year. Same old song and dance with him. Hard for me to understand that I'm the one "whinning here". Sorry, but to read about a guy making millions complaining about picking up his paycheck on the 1st and 15th is laughable, on a contract he signed nonetheless.

poorme
04-16-2004, 11:15 AM
Too bad everyone just doesn't put Frank on the "ignore" list.

JDP
04-16-2004, 11:17 AM
I guess Frank's bargaining chip is jacking his first HR of the year and boosting his batting average up to .226.

*shrugs*

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Fungo
George~

I wish I could take credit for the "graphical art", but that cartoon came out the last time Frank was whinning about only making 5 million a year. Same old song and dance with him. Hard for me to understand that I'm the one "whinning here". Sorry, but to read about a guy making millions complaining about picking up his paycheck on the 1st and 15th is laughable, on a contract he signed nonetheless.

I suggest reading the entire article. If you think Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Billy Koch are worth more than Frank Thomas, state your case. Frank disagrees with you, and so do I.

Frank doesn't feel appreciated. By now you would think he would be smart enough to know he'll sound unappreciative for speaking up, but Frank has proven himself his own worst enemy in this department many times already. Unfortunately he still hasn't learned. Cowley is right there to jot down notes and pass it along to everyone who wants to read into it whatever they wish.

For the record I think the graphic you attached is pretty lame and hardly speaks to what Cowley bothered to write about Frank and misrepresents what Frank is quoted as saying.

pinwheels3530
04-16-2004, 11:46 AM
Everyone stop bashing Frank, let's see everyone here take a paycut from their jobs, and see if you will be happy!

Malgar 12
04-16-2004, 11:49 AM
The truth is if Frank is so confident that he's being disrespected he would've taken the Free Agent route, and got a better pay day from another team. He's still a very good hitter, but the fact that he exercised his option at this price tells you, he is at, or above market value for a good 35 year old DH. Disrepect is not part of that equation.

pinwheels3530
04-16-2004, 11:54 AM
Everyone let's focus on the team please!

Kilroy
04-16-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Cowley is right there to jot down notes and pass it along to everyone who wants to read into it whatever they wish.

Furthermore, I'm sure he was asked about his current contract, not volunteering information. And Frank has never been one to say "That's not something I'll talk about."

My problem with the situation is that people always try to apply real world logic to the fantasy-land that is professional sports.

hillbilly
04-16-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Everyone stop bashing Frank, let's see everyone here take a paycut from their jobs, and see if you will be happy!

Finally somebody with sense. Thank you. And I'm sure Frank wasn't whining either. He was probably just saying he thought he deserved more than what hes getting and was just stating his opinion. That doesn't mean he's not happy or that he's whining. Palehosegeorge hit it right on the head.

Fungo
04-16-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I suggest reading the entire article. If you think Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Billy Koch are worth more than Frank Thomas, state your case. Frank disagrees with you, and so do I.

Frank doesn't feel appreciated. By now you would think he would be smart enough to know he'll sound unappreciative for speaking up, but Frank has proven himself his own worst enemy in this department many times already. Unfortunately he still hasn't learned. Cowley is right there to jot down notes and pass it along to everyone who wants to read into it whatever they wish.

For the record I think the graphic you attached is pretty lame and hardly speaks to what Cowley bothered to write about Frank and misrepresents what Frank is quoted as saying.

For the record, I'm a huge Thomas fan and I'd love nothing more than to see him finish his career in a White Sox uniform. I'm not quite so sure that we are in disagreement here either. I do think Frank is underpaid. If Maggs does sign a contract in the neighborhood of $14 million, is he worth $8 million more than Frank? I don't think so. And yes, Frank does deserve to make more than Koch, Konerko and Lee, but who's fault is that? Frank is the one who ultimately signed the contract. If he wants to blame anyone, blame himself, blame his agent. Like you said, Thomas is his own worst enemy and you'd think he'd know by now to watch what he says. No matter how happy he is and how good the team is playing, his comments are going to be taken in the wrong way because of his track record. Yeah, the graphic was jab at him, but comments like it hurts picking up your paycheck on the 1st and 15th of the month & last year's classic about only making $5 million and the change in lifestlye it will cause makes him sound like a whiney athlete to the Average Joe who works a 9-5 job who will proabaly not make as much in his lifetime as these athletes make in a year.

ma_deuce
04-16-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I suggest reading the entire article. If you think Paul Konerko, Carlos Lee and Billy Koch are worth more than Frank Thomas, state your case. Frank disagrees with you, and so do I.

True dat. Frank isn't whining by asking for a review at the end of the season. He wants to stay in Chicago for four more years, to end his career with the team he began with. You don't see that too often these days, and I think we should accommodate him.

I cannot imagine Frank in another uniform, and don't wish to. And I would bet that neither does Reinsdorf. Expect a new contract with a modest pay increase at the end of the year.

Deuce

Rush20
04-16-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Everyone stop bashing Frank, let's see everyone here take a paycut from their jobs, and see if you will be happy!

I would expect a paycut if I was only performing half of my old job responsiblities. (i.e. DH vs. Fielder and Hitter).

Plus, millionaire baseball players taking a paycut from $8M to $6M vs. a working class person taking a similar percentage pay cut is a huge difference.

Frank should shut up, play hard and sign a new contract when his current contract expires. Just don't expect JR to re-sign him. It won't happen. I think JR is looking forward to the day he can move Frank out of the clubhouse.

It's not our fault Frank's ex-wife took all his money. Not the first time this happened and won't be the last.

voodoochile
04-16-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
True dat. Frank isn't whining by asking for a review at the end of the season. He wants to stay in Chicago for four more years, to end his career with the team he began with. You don't see that too often these days, and I think we should accommodate him.

I cannot imagine Frank in another uniform, and don't wish to. And I would bet that neither does Reinsdorf. Expect a new contract with a modest pay increase at the end of the year.

Deuce

The pay increase would have to be more than $2M or be for several years. Frank is guaranteed $8M next season and has a fat buyout the following year if the Sox decide to not let him take the $10M option ($3.5M). I will be surprised if the Sox do renegotiate with him to be honest with you and expect to see him make $18M over the next two years as the Sox will view his 2006 slary as $6.5M for all practical purposes...

RKMeibalane
04-16-2004, 01:07 PM
Here are my thoughts on this latest contract issue with Frank:

1. Frank needs to be more careful when it comes to talking to the media. This appears to be something he still hasn't learned. I believe the phrase "no comment" would work nicely in these situations.

2. The media needs to stop pushing Frank's buttons. If they just leave him alone and let him do his job, good things will happen. We saw that last season.

3. Frank does deserve to finish his career in Chicago. Considering how many players have said that they don't want to be here, JR should get down on his hands and knees and thank God that Thomas has remained loyal to the Sox organization. A lot of other players would have left a long time ago.

steff
04-16-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Rush20
It's not our fault Frank's ex-wife took all his money. Not the first time this happened and won't be the last.


:whoflungpoo

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
....

3. Frank does deserve to finish his career in Chicago. Considering how many players have said that they don't want to be here, JR should get down on his hands and knees and thank God that Thomas has remained loyal to the Sox organization. A lot of other players would have left a long time ago.

Ahem... would this be a good time to note that a certain superstar rightfielder accepted a very large contract offer a few years ago that now makes him the highest paid ballplayer on the Sox, yet he returns the team's gratitude by flatly stating he wants to test the free agent market before accepting yet another generous offer the Sox are willing to make that will doubtlessly continue to make him the highest-paid ballplayer on the Sox?

It's funny that I haven't heard anyone complain about Magglio. Imagine the uproar if Frank said something akin to what Magglio has already said:

:hurt
"I want to test the free agent market first."

:maggs
"Yeah, what he said!"

voodoochile
04-16-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ahem... would this be a good time to note that a certain superstar rightfielder accepted a very large contract offer a few years ago that now makes him the highest paid ballplayer on the Sox, yet he returns the team's gratitude by flatly stating he wants to test the free agent market before accepting yet another generous offer the Sox are willing to make that will doubtlessly continue to make him the highest-paid ballplayer on the Sox?

It's funny that I haven't heard anyone complain about Magglio. Imagine the uproar if Frank said something akin to what Magglio has already said:


*****! Go George!

BOOYAH! Take THAT you haters... :D:

steff
04-16-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ahem... would this be a good time to note that a certain superstar rightfielder accepted a very large contract offer a few years ago that now makes him the highest paid ballplayer on the Sox, yet he returns the team's gratitude by flatly stating he wants to test the free agent market before accepting yet another generous offer the Sox are willing to make that will doubtlessly continue to make him the highest-paid ballplayer on the Sox?

It's funny that I haven't heard anyone complain about Magglio. Imagine the uproar if Frank said something akin to what Magglio has already said:

:hurt
"I want to test the free agent market first."

:maggs
"Yeah, what he said!"


Right on George. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. :D:

SEALgep
04-16-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Ahem... would this be a good time to note that a certain superstar rightfielder accepted a very large contract offer a few years ago that now makes him the highest paid ballplayer on the Sox, yet he returns the team's gratitude by flatly stating he wants to test the free agent market before accepting yet another generous offer the Sox are willing to make that will doubtlessly continue to make him the highest-paid ballplayer on the Sox?

It's funny that I haven't heard anyone complain about Magglio. Imagine the uproar if Frank said something akin to what Magglio has already said:

:hurt
"I want to test the free agent market first."

:maggs
"Yeah, what he said!" I would just assume stay out of this debate, but I think people were upset with Maggs and thought it was best to trade him if he wanted to become a FA. The situation has changed only because he has shown interest in staying. The difference though is Frank already signed his deal. I understand the frustration, but the deal was signed. Should an owner be able to tear up a contract and redo it for a guy like Griffey. Once it is signed, it is a done deal. No need to attack me, I am just trying to point out the difference.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I would just assume stay out of this debate, but I think people were upset with Maggs and thought it was best to trade him if he wanted to become a FA. The situation has changed only because he has shown interest in staying. The difference though is Frank already signed his deal. I understand the frustration, but the deal was signed. Should an owner be able to tear up a contract and redo it for a guy like Griffey. Once it is signed, it is a done deal. No need to attack me, I am just trying to point out the difference.

Agreed. Frank can't have it both ways, signing a contract and claiming he is a stand-up guy even while expressing his desire to renegotiate the contract, too. In this respect he is like a child crying about something while simultaneosly claiming he isn't crying about it. It doesn't wash, and he really ought to know better than let Joe Cowley quote him about his contract status. He keeps making the same mistake over and over. I suppose it is Cowley's job to write newsworthy material, but he sure isn't helping matters for Frank or the Sox probing around for this crap.

I'm glad Frank doesn't use his brain for hitting baseballs, because his OPS would be around 200 if he did.

Mammoo
04-16-2004, 01:52 PM
VC Edit: Post deleted for language infraction.

RKMeibalane
04-16-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
VC edit: Post deleted for language infraction

Don't get carried away. That dubious distinction belongs to this individual --------------------------------------> :reinsy

CubKilla
04-16-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Don't get carried away. That dubious distinction belongs to this individual --------------------------------------> :reinsy

:shammy

"What? No love?"

Fungo
04-16-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I would just assume stay out of this debate, but I think people were upset with Maggs and thought it was best to trade him if he wanted to become a FA. The situation has changed only because he has shown interest in staying. The difference though is Frank already signed his deal. I understand the frustration, but the deal was signed. Should an owner be able to tear up a contract and redo it for a guy like Griffey. Once it is signed, it is a done deal. No need to attack me, I am just trying to point out the difference.
Good point on Griffey, if I'm reading it correctly. Let's face it, guys like Konerko and Koch aren't tearing up their contracts because they had off years. Amazing though, after a player has a good year, they want to renegotiate, restucture or however you want to say it. Under the current situation, the players are able to put the screws to the owners.

SEALgep
04-16-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
Good point on Griffey, if I'm reading it correctly. Let's face it, guys like Konerko and Koch aren't tearing up their contracts because they had off years. Amazing though, after a player has a good year, they want to renegotiate, restucture or however you want to say it. Under the current situation, the players are able to put the screws to the owners. Ya, you read it right.

Frankfan4life
04-16-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
True dat. Frank isn't whining by asking for a review at the end of the season. He wants to stay in Chicago for four more years, to end his career with the team he began with. You don't see that too often these days, and I think we should accommodate him.

I cannot imagine Frank in another uniform, and don't wish to. And I would bet that neither does Reinsdorf. Expect a new contract with a modest pay increase at the end of the year.

Deuce

I couldn't agree with you more.

Also, why are we letting this bother us? We know how Frank is! He's embarrased by his contract. He feels that, as the most veteran member of this team and after what he's acomplished, he should be making more money than some others on the team, like Koch and Konerko, and I can see his point. However, he did do this to himself. So let's just let Frank rant, if it's not bothering his teammates then it shouldn't bother anyone else.

RKMeibalane
04-16-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life
I couldn't agree with you more.

Also, why are we letting this bother us? We know how Frank is! He's embarrased by his contract. He feels that, as the most veteran member of this team and after what he's acomplished, he should be making more money than some others on the team, like Koch and Konerko, and I can see his point. However, he did do this to himself. So let's just let Frank rant, if it's not bothering his teammates then it shouldn't bother anyone else.

I agree, but it seems that some members of this board always need something to complain about. :D:

Baby Fisk
04-16-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I agree, but it seems that some members of this board always need something to complain about. :D:
I think we need a visit from Lord Vader to shut this discussion down. Whaddya say? :cool:

pinwheels3530
04-16-2004, 04:00 PM
It doesn't matter how much $ you make no one likes to take a pay cut, I thought this was a White Sox ineteractive board not a find something to complain about because I am Sox fan board! :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

RKMeibalane
04-16-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
I think we need a visit from Lord Vader to shut this discussion down. Whaddya say? :cool:

One moment...

Here he comes...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/darth.jpg

*Breathing*

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Frankfan4life

Also, why are we letting this bother us? We know how Frank is! He's embarrased by his contract. He feels that, as the most veteran member of this team and after what he's acomplished, he should be making more money than some others on the team, like Koch and Konerko, and I can see his point. However, he did do this to himself. So let's just let Frank rant, if it's not bothering his teammates then it shouldn't bother anyone else.

I've come to expect this from Frank, and all the associated bitching and moaning from a small subsegment of fans who forever confuse OPS with leadership and brains. It's simply inevitable to repeat itself, too.

What really pisses me off is media *******s like Joe Cowley pretending they aren't culpable for instigating this. Need something to fill your notebook? Just ask Frank about his contract status. Guaranteed quotable controversy.

If Cowley and the rest of the piece of **** sports media in this town want to really impress me with their journalistic integrity, why don't they make the trip to 1060 W. Addison and ask the questions the rest of us have been waiting as long as 3 years to hear the answers to.

"What role did you play in the illegalities uncovered in your personal charity? How did you and your friends benefit?"

"Why were you carrying all that cash in that Carribbean hotel lobby?"

"If you said you would be the first to submit to a drug screening, why weren't you?"

"Why did you explode in a complete rage when merely asked to submit to the very same drug screening you already said you would be the first to submit to?"

"What ever happened to the barrel end of that corked bat?"

"The umpires said your cork job was truly unique, a liquified version they had never seen before. Who helped you with that? How did you learn to do that?"

Nope, these *******s like Cowley just pull Frank's chain... month after month... year after year. Then they pretend to be journalistic heroes for telling us straight what is going on.

Cowley and the rest of them are contemptible pigs.

MarqSox
04-16-2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I've come to expect this from Frank, and all the associated bitching and moaning from a small subsegment of fans who forever confuse OPS with leadership and brains. It's simply inevitable to repeat itself, too.

What really pisses me off is media *******s like Joe Cowley pretending they aren't culpable for instigating this. Need something to fill your notebook? Just ask Frank about his contract status. Guaranteed quotable controversy.

If Cowley and the rest of the piece of **** sports media in this town want to really impress me with their journalistic integrity, why don't they make the trip to 1060 W. Addison and ask the questions the rest of us have been waiting as long as 3 years to hear the answers to.

"What role did you play in the illegalities uncovered in your personal charity? How did you and your friends benefit?"

"Why were you carrying all that cash in that Carribbean hotel lobby?"

"If you said you would be the first to submit to a drug screening, why weren't you?"

"Why did you explode in a complete rage when merely asked to submit to the very same drug screening you already said you would be the first to submit to?"

"What ever happened to the barrel end of that corked bat?"

"The umpires said your cork job was truly unique, a liquified version they had never seen before. Who helped you with that? How did you learn to do that?"

Nope, these *******s like Cowley just pull Frank's chain... month after month... year after year. Then they pretend to be journalistic heroes for telling us straight what is going on.

Cowley and the rest of them are contemptible pigs.
Cowley isn't the Cubs beat writer, and as far as I'm aware, never has been. It's unfair to criticize him for doing his job (and he is)just because his colleagues aren't doing theirs.

bc2k
04-16-2004, 08:32 PM
thomass traded his maximum earning potential in exchange for years of job security. you made your own bed, and it was your own fat ass that broke it. have a good day you suv pig.

voodoochile
04-16-2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
thomass traded his maximum earning potential in exchange for years of job security. you made your own bed, and it was your own fat ass that broke it. have a good day you suv pig.

Nah... I didn't buy it. You've really lost it as a Frank troll. This is just not even close to your best work. I give it like a 6.

Here I was hoping for a good old b2ck anti-Frank rant and this is what I get? Sigh... You've become a caricature of yourself... :(:

RKMeibalane
04-16-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Nah... I didn't buy it. You've really lost it as a Frank troll. This is just not even close to your best work. I give it like a 6.

Here I was hoping for a good old b2ck anti-Frank rant and this is what I get? Sigh... You've become a caricature of yourself... :(:

LOL!

Railsplitter
04-16-2004, 09:54 PM
Boston likes lumbering one dimensional right handers. Maybe we can trade Frank for a couple pitchers.

rahulsekhar
04-16-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I would just assume stay out of this debate, but I think people were upset with Maggs and thought it was best to trade him if he wanted to become a FA. The situation has changed only because he has shown interest in staying. The difference though is Frank already signed his deal. I understand the frustration, but the deal was signed. Should an owner be able to tear up a contract and redo it for a guy like Griffey. Once it is signed, it is a done deal. No need to attack me, I am just trying to point out the difference.

Hold on here.

1) Frank is not talking about holding out or anything. He'll play out his contract as is, but would like a raise based on performance. He's nit "tearing up the contract"

2) Later, his comments say he wants this to help him finish his career with the Sox

3) He is worth a lot more than anyone but Maggs

Lets guve the guy a break. He appears to have been led into this and at worst is guilty of putting his foot into hs mouth. Notthe worst possible sin, and since he's leading better than ever, I suggest he gat a pass.

That said - any bets on Marrioti's next column? He doesnt usually write on weekends but I bet this gets him out. Not that a Sox win streak could do that....

Cubbiesuck13
04-16-2004, 10:51 PM
the Oz has to take controll of this situation, if it is a problem in the clubhouse which it really may be. Money is never something that is going to bring a team together. I feel that if this does spawn some neg. energy, then something will be done. like a gag order of sorts.

Frank does have a point. I am not saying give him more money, but the fact that PK and Kotch make more than him, is sad. Simply because that is what pro sports have sunk to. Status because of contract, not success.

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 01:17 AM
I put tonight's loss squarely on the shoulders of Frank Thomas whose comments completely undid all the positive things Ozzie has been putting together. How DARE he answer a reporter's question about contract status? I'm sure once the players heard about this, they were completely demoralized!

pinwheels3530
04-17-2004, 01:35 AM
Yeah let's trade Frank to Boston and have Jose Canseco DH like so many (I think I know how to run a team) Sox fans wanted to do back in 01 when Frank got hurt. All you I want to trade, he wines to much sox fans know exactly where Frank is coming from " their raising ticket prices", "the upper deck", "the blue seats", " they won't let me go down to the lower deck cause I am to cheap to pay for my seat". It takes a whiner to know a whiner! :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

bc2k
04-17-2004, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Nah... I didn't buy it. You've really lost it as a Frank troll. This is just not even close to your best work. I give it like a 6.

Here I was hoping for a good old b2ck anti-Frank rant and this is what I get? Sigh... You've become a caricature of yourself... :(:

:D: lol voodoo, critiqued on bashing technique? Sorry to disappoint, but maybe you have me confused with another anti-Frank ranter: b2ck? :(:

I think that post was at least a 6.5 if only for exercising good memory. The "suv pig" comment (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24842&highlight=lincoln+park) was from a september 23, 2003 mandmandm thread. I love mandmandm's comment about a $50k H2 that Thomas didn't even drive: "I see the pay cut this year has really crimped his lifestyle."

Maybe the anti-Frank bash was so weak because I've respected his play this year, or maybe because I'm starting to appreciate his disciplined batting approach, knowledge of the strike zone, and OBP more. I luuuv 17-pitch at bats.

My current whipping boy (receiving bc2k bashing since 2002) is Joe Crede, who posesses none of the Frank qualities listed above. He deserves bashing for 2 reasons: his play, and for the fans who think since he was forecasted to be a perennial All-Star that he's currently a great player. This guy is the biggest White Sox position player bust this side of Joe Borchard. I don't want to give away too much anti-Crede bashing here, instead opting until I have enough material to earn an 8 on your bashing scale.

Deadguy
04-17-2004, 02:21 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I put tonight's loss squarely on the shoulders of Frank Thomas whose comments completely undid all the positive things Ozzie has been putting together. How DARE he answer a reporter's question about contract status? I'm sure once the players heard about this, they were completely demoralized!

ROFL

TommyJohn
04-17-2004, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Cowley and the rest of them are contemptible pigs.

Hell, I could've told you that. Just read his two posts as a WSI
member. There's all the proof you need of that statement.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
:D: lol voodoo, critiqued on bashing technique? Sorry to disappoint, but maybe you have me confused with another anti-Frank ranter: b2ck? :(:

I think that post was at least a 6.5 if only for exercising good memory. The "suv pig" comment (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24842&highlight=lincoln+park) was from a september 23, 2003 mandmandm thread. I love mandmandm's comment about a $50k H2 that Thomas didn't even drive: "I see the pay cut this year has really crimped his lifestyle."

Maybe the anti-Frank bash was so weak because I've respected his play this year, or maybe because I'm starting to appreciate his disciplined batting approach, knowledge of the strike zone, and OBP more. I luuuv 17-pitch at bats.

My current whipping boy (receiving bc2k bashing since 2002) is Joe Crede, who posesses none of the Frank qualities listed above. He deserves bashing for 2 reasons: his play, and for the fans who think since he was forecasted to be a perennial All-Star that he's currently a great player. This guy is the biggest White Sox position player bust this side of Joe Borchard. I don't want to give away too much anti-Crede bashing here, instead opting until I have enough material to earn an 8 on your bashing scale.

Damn, I normally actually remember how those numbers and letters go, too...

Oh well, glad to hear you are on the Frank bandwago at least as a player...

Eddie Gaedel
04-17-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Hold on here.

1) Frank is not talking about holding out or anything. He'll play out his contract as is, but would like a raise based on performance. He's nit "tearing up the contract"

2) Later, his comments say he wants this to help him finish his career with the Sox

3) He is worth a lot more than anyone but Maggs

Lets guve the guy a break. He appears to have been led into this and at worst is guilty of putting his foot into hs mouth. Notthe worst possible sin, and since he's leading better than ever, I suggest he gat a pass.

right on. also, i think his timing is terrible. i don't understand why he can't wait until the end of the season to talk about his contract. now is not the time to make waves. he needs to let his bat do the talking.

jcowley21
04-17-2004, 10:47 AM
:troll

Just for the record, the pig wants all the haters to know that Cowley never asked Frank if he was happy with his contract. He brought his unhappiness up to Cowley. But since all of you are in the clubhouse and know exactly what goes on, Cowley the pig will take your word for it.

And PaleHoGeorge, I'll come down to the trailer park and tell you how to do your job. <<Neanderthal comment about George's wife>>.

OUT

steff
04-17-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by jcowley21
Just for the record, the pig wants all the haters to know that Cowley never asked Frank if he was happy with his contract. He brought his unhappiness up to Cowley. But since all of you are in the clubhouse and know exactly what goes on, Cowley the pig will take your word for it.

And PaleHoGeorge, I'll come down to the trailer park and tell you how to do your job. <<Neanderthal comment about George's wife>>.

OUT



Well.. that was rude.

Mickster
04-17-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by jcowley21
:troll

Just for the record, the pig wants all the haters to know that Cowley never asked Frank if he was happy with his contract. He brought his unhappiness up to Cowley. But since all of you are in the clubhouse and know exactly what goes on, Cowley the pig will take your word for it.

And PaleHoGeorge, I'll come down to the trailer park and tell you how to do your job. <<Neanderthal comment about George's wife>>.

OUT

Nothing like showing your professionalism, Joe! :(:

FarWestChicago
04-17-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by jcowley21
:troll

Just for the record, the pig wants all the haters to know that Cowley never asked Frank if he was happy with his contract. He brought his unhappiness up to Cowley. But since all of you are in the clubhouse and know exactly what goes on, Cowley the pig will take your word for it.

And PaleHoGeorge, I'll come down to the trailer park and tell you how to do your job. <<Neanderthal comment about George's wife>>.

OUT Just for the record. You are out. Your childish and disrespectful comment about George's wife indicates you aren't capable of civilized discourse or anything remotely similar.

:hawk

HE GAWN!!

PaleHoseGeorge
04-17-2004, 11:54 AM
Gee, and I missed it. Nice knowing you, Joe.

You're a pathetic wretch.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 12:02 PM
I wonder how his superiors at the Southtown would feel about these comments. It cannot be good for their public relations to have this idiot representing them.

Deadguy
04-17-2004, 12:42 PM
For all the vociferous, baseless garbage I've seen journalists hurl at professional athletes, you'd think they'd be less sensitive to criticism. I guess not. :whiner:

It's not uncommon to open up a newspaper, and see columnists spew out 2500 word columns that insult and smear the reputation of athletes and entertainers, with very little regard for concrete facts, all because it is their “job” to meet a certain deadline. If they're wrong, do we ever see retractions, or an open letter from an athlete or entertainer to shoot down the columnist's interpretations?

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Everyone stop bashing Frank, let's see everyone here take a paycut from their jobs, and see if you will be happy!

Sign me up for first in line to take a cut from $10 million to $6 million.

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 12:56 PM
Just out of curiousity, has Cowley's identity as that poster been confirmed? Do we know that was him, or could it have been somebody posing as Cowley?

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
Finally somebody with sense. Thank you. And I'm sure Frank wasn't whining either. He was probably just saying he thought he deserved more than what hes getting and was just stating his opinion. That doesn't mean he's not happy or that he's whining. Palehosegeorge hit it right on the head.

I disagree. It would be one thing if Frank said he expected to play hard and perform well next year so that he could earn a nice raise and hopefully get the Sox to consider a new contract.

It is another to equate money with respect. To insinuate that he deserves more money becuase of what he has done in the past and the Sox should show him proper respect by giving him a new contract. It is stupid to comment that it is disappointing come payday when he is making more money than 99% of Americans will ever dream of.

There is no way in hell I would give an aging DH a 4-year contract. If he thinks that is realistic, then he has no clue. IF he TRULY thinks he is worth more money, he has the power to make it happen. All he has to do is decline his $8 million option this year and either hope the Sox exercise the $10 million option or he becomes a free agent. If he believes what he is spouting off, then getting that money in free agency should be no problem, right? Frank needs to shut up, play hard, produce and help this team win. If he does, the money will take care of itself and he will get what he is worth.

If winning the WS was truly atop his priority list, he would not talk about this crap. Let his agent do the work.

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I disagree. It would be one thing if Frank said he expected to play hard and perform well next year so that he could earn a nice raise and hopefully get the Sox to consider a new contract.

It is another to equate money with respect. To insinuate that he deserves more money becuase of what he has done in the past and the Sox should show him proper respect by giving him a new contract. It is stupid to comment that it is disappointing come payday when he is making more money than 99% of Americans will ever dream of.

There is no way in hell I would give an aging DH a 4-year contract. If he thinks that is realistic, then he has no clue. IF he TRULY thinks he is worth more money, he has the power to make it happen. All he has to do is decline his $8 million option this year and either hope the Sox exercise the $10 million option or he becomes a free agent. If he believes what he is spouting off, then getting that money in free agency should be no problem, right? Frank needs to shut up, play hard, produce and help this team win. If he does, the money will take care of itself and he will get what he is worth.

If winning the WS was truly atop his priority list, he would not talk about this crap. Let his agent do the work.
Well said.

Cubbiesuck13
04-17-2004, 02:05 PM
Guillen said he doesn't plan to talk with either Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez about their contract situations, as long as it doesn't disrupt the clubhouse. "That's none of my business," Guillen said. "As soon as it comes into the clubhouse, we have a problem—they're going to have a problem with me."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040416soxbits,1,4657964.story?coll=cs-home-headlines



did i call it or what? :D:

kermittheefrog
04-17-2004, 02:23 PM
Someone really needs to talking some ****ing sense into Thomas. If he wanted big money and really believed he was still a great hitter he could have taken a one year deal somewhere, raked for a year and probably gotten a big money contract from somebody. However, he signed a multi-year deal, effectively giving up his chance to earn one last big contract and giving him job security. Now he's pissed because after getting the job security he wanted from the last deal, he's not getting big bucks. Frank just needs to be sat down and told you can't have it both ways. Every contract is going to have it's pros and cons unless you are Vladirmir Guerrero or Alex Rodriguez, a superstar in the prime of your career. Those guys get a lot of money and a lot of years. When you're 35 and have had one great year out of the last 3 you're not going to get $15 million per year for the next 5 years.

Deadguy
04-17-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
It is stupid to comment that it is disappointing come payday when he is making more money than 99% of Americans will ever dream of.


Frank doesn't share the same vocation as these 99% of Americans. The fact that you keep hanging your hat on this analogy makes YOU the clueless one.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2004, 02:38 PM
Just for the record I do think that was 'the' Joe Cowley. I've heard him speak quite often about WSI (and it's generally not positive...)

I myself had a run in with him when I pointed out that it's very difficult for any reporter to be considered professional and neutral when he is writing stories in the 'official' White Sox yearbooks and scorebooks. (Check out his stories in the 2000 yearbook).

Joe got livid in his reply to me saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) who am I to talk working in the major media market of Southeast Idaho. (as if that has anything to do with my original comment) He never did answer my question of how can he be objective talking about the Sox when he's also getting paid by them to write stories.

I do agree with the suggestion that perhaps one of the moderators needs to send Cowley's original comments (including what he said about PHG's wife) to the publisher / managing editor of the Southtown. That is totally unprofessional...but what do you expect from a guy who grew up an Indians fan?

Finally according to the Chicago papers today, Kenny Williams didn't seem to be very happy about frank's comments.

Lip

Joel Perez
04-17-2004, 02:41 PM
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

JUST SHUT UP FRANK AND PLAY SOME BALL!!!

I don't even know where to begin on this one. Everything was going a-OK until that quote became immediate print.

Just heard it on the radio here near San Antonio...for Comiskey's sake, what is Tank ranting about now? The fact that his contract sucks out loud? The fact that Magglio said something about his contract and now Frank must think its time to say something about his?

Give me a break.

I'm not going to type here and say stuff like "Frank must go" or "Trade Frank's you-know-what out of town", but JUST SHUT THE HELL UP AND PLAY BALL FRANK!!!!!!!

Whether you were being a good boy about this or being the jerk that you've become in the last few years, suck it up, and get out there, slug 50 home runs like I know you can, then vent in the off-season about a contract. Just don't come to the ballpark, hit less than what you weigh, only have one HR while Mags has more than you, and proceed to "allegedly rant" about your salary.

PLAY BALL! ASSUME YOUR ROLE!

Mickster
04-17-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just for the record I do think that was 'the' Joe Cowley. I've heard him speak quite often about WSI (and it's generally not positive...)

I myself had a run in with him when I pointed out that it's very difficult for any reporter to be considered professional and neutral when he is writing stories in the 'official' White Sox yearbooks and scorebooks. (Check out his stories in the 2000 yearbook).

Joe got livid in his reply to me saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) who am I to talk working in the major media market of Southeast Idaho. (as if that has anything to do with my original comment) He never did answer my question of how can he be objective talking about the Sox when he's also getting paid by them to write stories.


Lip,

If you lok at the 3 posts that Joe has placed on this board, it is completely in line with what you are saying.

Very sad.

kermittheefrog
04-17-2004, 03:15 PM
How old is Joe Cowley? The Cowley on this message board appears to bee about 15 but we have no way of knowing that its really him.

batmanZoSo
04-17-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by jcowley21
:troll
PaleHoGeorge, I'll come down to the trailer park and tell you how to do your job. <<Neanderthal comment about George's wife>>.

OUT

http://www.rob-clarkson.com/duff-brewery/troymcclure/01.jpg
"That took a LOT of class..."

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Lip,

If you lok at the 3 posts that Joe has placed on this board, it is completely in line with what you are saying.

Very sad.
Good call. That's too bad, I used to like reading the Southtown.

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Frank doesn't share the same vocation as these 99% of Americans. The fact that you keep hanging your hat on this analogy makes YOU the clueless one.

Call me clueless all you want, but you are absolutely wrong......

Frank is entitled to earn his big dollars because of his talents and his vocation, but if he wants to whine about not getting enough at payday when he makes more than 99% of the country, he will get no sympathy.

I could care less if he is the best rocket scientist in the world of if he is a top hollywood actor, if he wants to bitch about making millions in the press he will be deemed a freaking baby. Especially when he equates money with respect. To say he is not respected and many more millions will cure that is BS. Any team that would give him a 4-year contract at this point in his career would be stupid.

I harbor no ill will about him making what he does, but when he has/had full control over his contract, I (and most other fans) don't want to hear him bitching.

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I disagree. It would be one thing if Frank said he expected to play hard and perform well next year so that he could earn a nice raise and hopefully get the Sox to consider a new contract.

It is another to equate money with respect. To insinuate that he deserves more money becuase of what he has done in the past and the Sox should show him proper respect by giving him a new contract. It is stupid to comment that it is disappointing come payday when he is making more money than 99% of Americans will ever dream of.

There is no way in hell I would give an aging DH a 4-year contract. If he thinks that is realistic, then he has no clue. IF he TRULY thinks he is worth more money, he has the power to make it happen. All he has to do is decline his $8 million option this year and either hope the Sox exercise the $10 million option or he becomes a free agent. If he believes what he is spouting off, then getting that money in free agency should be no problem, right? Frank needs to shut up, play hard, produce and help this team win. If he does, the money will take care of itself and he will get what he is worth.

If winning the WS was truly atop his priority list, he would not talk about this crap. Let his agent do the work.

Um...it's professional sports. When you do it for a living, money = respect.

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:24 PM
FWIW, I think Cowley is right. I did not see the comment about PHG's wife so I will not comment on that.

But to attack the media for doing their job is not right. We can't blame the media for asking Frank a question that Frank is too stupip to not comment on. We also cannot assume that Frank was baited here because we were not there.

Cowley has a job to do. Whether you like his stories or not, it is not his job to always look for positive stories. It IS his job to ask questions and if the players are not smart enough not to answer them, it is not his fault.

MarqSox
04-17-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
FWIW, I think Cowley is right. I did not see the comment about PHG's wife so I will not comment on that.

But to attack the media for doing their job is not right. We can't blame the media for asking Frank a question that Frank is too stupip to not comment on. We also cannot assume that Frank was baited here because we were not there.

Cowley has a job to do. Whether you like his stories or not, it is not his job to always look for positive stories. It IS his job to ask questions and if the players are not smart enough not to answer them, it is not his fault.
Cowley WAS right, but he's got to maintain a level of professionalism when discussing his work, something he clearly did not do.

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Um...it's professional sports. When you do it for a living, money = respect.

That's BS.... that is the prevailing attitude these days and that is partly what is wrong with sports and escalating salaries.

Money does not equal respect. Period. It's not like these guys are making substandard wages working in a sweat shop.

If the players want to renegotiate when they are playing well, then they should take massive paycuts when they suck. They want it both ways and call it respect. It's crap is what it is.

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Cowley WAS right, but he's got to maintain a level of professionalism when discussing his work, something he clearly did not do.

You are probably right, but like I said, the comment about the wife was deleted before I saw it. I had no problem with what I read. So I can only comment on that.

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 04:33 PM
Has anybody here actually checked with the real Joe Cowley (like at his business email address) to see if this was an imposter or not?

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You are probably right, but like I said, the comment about the wife was deleted before I saw it. I had no problem with what I read. So I can only comment on that.

By the same token, you only have as evidence what Cowley said Frank Thomas said, so how can you comment on it? After all, you didn't actualyl HEAR him say it.

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
By the same token, you only have as evidence what Cowley said Frank Thomas said, so how can you comment on it? After all, you didn't actualyl HEAR him say it.

So by that, you are saying that all comments about any article in the press from here on out, should cease and desist on here, since we aren't actually there? I don't see that happening......

KW didn't seem to mind responding to Frank comments so he must have felt they were true at least to a point. If he believes it enough to respond to it, why can we not? All I said is that we can't assume FT was baited. Even if he was, it is his own fault for not being smart enough to decline to discuss the topic. So either way, what's the problem?

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
So by that, you are saying that all comments about any article in the press from here on out, should cease and desist on here, since we aren't actually there? I don't see that happening......

KW didn't seem to mind responding to Frank comments so he must have felt they were true at least to a point. If he believes it enough to respond to it, why can we not? All I said is that we can't assume FT was baited. Even if he was, it is his own fault for not being smart enough to decline to discuss the topic. So either way, what's the problem?

Kenny has wanted Frank off the team since he took over. He's got a bug up his ass about it. The fact that KW is mad at Frank is like saying, "The sun rose this morning."

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Kenny has wanted Frank off the team since he took over. He's got a bug up his ass about it. The fact that KW is mad at Frank is like saying, "The sun rose this morning."

Perhaps you are right....... but that still does not make Cowley the villain here. Frank is wrong, period. He has control over his contract situation after this year, and he did after last year. Complaining about what he makes on payday is assinine.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Perhaps you are right....... but that still does not make Cowley the villain here. Frank is wrong, period. He has control over his contract situation after this year, and he did after last year. Complaining about what he makes on payday is assinine.

Whatever. Cowley made his own bed with the crap he posted here. It isn't about the article anymore, IMO. He owes George and everyone on the site an apology in writing in his column.

Man, we need a Fire Joe Cowley tag something fierce...

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Whatever. Cowley made his own bed with the crap he posted here. It isn't about the article anymore, IMO. He owes George and everyone on the site an apology in writing in his column.

Man, we need a Fire Joe Cowley tag something fierce...

Again, you are probably right....... but I didn't see what he said. It was deleted so I can't comment on that part of it. The rest of what Cowley said, I have no problem with. If his comment was that bad, then Cowley is an idiot, but he still wasn't wrong in doing that story.

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
So by that, you are saying that all comments about any article in the press from here on out, should cease and desist on here, since we aren't actually there? I don't see that happening......

KW didn't seem to mind responding to Frank comments so he must have felt they were true at least to a point. If he believes it enough to respond to it, why can we not? All I said is that we can't assume FT was baited. Even if he was, it is his own fault for not being smart enough to decline to discuss the topic. So either way, what's the problem?

No, I'm just saying that you refuse condemn "Cowley" (if it really was him) for saying something despicable about somebody's wife because it was deleted before you saw it fully knowing the context of the quote, but you can dump on what Thomas is quoted as saying in a newspaper column, not knowing the context of that quote.

I just find your standards interesting.

gosox41
04-17-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I wonder how his superiors at the Southtown would feel about these comments. It cannot be good for their public relations to have this idiot representing them.

That wasn't the real Joe Cowley who wrote that was it? Maybe it was the Joe Cowley who used to pitch for the Sox in the '80's.

Bob

gosox41
04-17-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Kenny has wanted Frank off the team since he took over. He's got a bug up his ass about it. The fact that KW is mad at Frank is like saying, "The sun rose this morning."

Another reason I don't like KW. Why does he have it in for Frank?

Bob

WinningUgly!
04-17-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Man, we need a Fire Joe Cowley tag something fierce...

All I need is a pic of that ugly mug. :)

Rex Hudler
04-17-2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
No, I'm just saying that you refuse condemn "Cowley" (if it really was him) for saying something despicable about somebody's wife because it was deleted before you saw it fully knowing the context of the quote, but you can dump on what Thomas is quoted as saying in a newspaper column, not knowing the context of that quote.

I just find your standards interesting.

There is a definite difference in commenting on a story with quotes than commenting on something I didn't see at all.

I find your bias quite interesting. The only point I have tried to make is that Frank was wrong in opening his mouth, whether Cowley asked him or Frank brought it up. I did not comment on Cowley's comment about PHG's wife, because I don't know what it is.

Assuming it was bad as you say, I'll say that Cowley was a dumbass for making such a comment. But I will also say that PHG was wrong for calling Cowley out when the problem really lies with Frank and not Cowley's reporting. Does that justify Cowley making a personal comment about someone else's wife? Hell no. Never did I insinuate that.

Deadguy
04-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Another reason I don't like KW. Why does he have it in for Frank?

Bob

More than likely, it's professional jealousy. KW had just 27 homeruns and 118 RBIs in 1154 ABs.

Players tend to overrate their own abilities, and KW views himself as a grinder who contributed the intangibles to help the team win.

KW views Thomas as someone who doesn't take the game seriously, and who has found success easy to come by. Most importantly, he doesn't fit KW's ideal what a Chicago White Sox player "should" possess to help this team win.

There is no love lost between the two, and that is why these contract disputes have gone public. Thomas had a heated discussion with KW after the conclusion to the season, in which KW basically insinuated that Thomas was not wanted, and that if he declined the 6 million dollar option, he would not be a White Sox in 2004.

Thomas is sincere in saying he wants to remain a White Sox for life. He's backed it up many times by sitting down with JR, and ironing out long-term contracts. Thomas has no ties to the city of Chicago, and has no reason to feel loyalty to this city or the franchise other than the fact that he was picked 7th in the 1989 amateur draft by this team. It's not like Barry Larkin's ties with the Cincinatti Reds, as Barry is a Cincinatti native. Yet, through all the years, the mutual respect that FT and JR have for each other has kept Thomas around.

Magglio, on the otherhand, is full of it. I sincerely doubt his loyalty to this franchise. If he wanted to remain a White Sox, he'd have his agent iron something out ASAP. His comments about wanting to remain a White Sox are just PR BS as far as I'm concerned, until he signs on the dotted line. He has every right to go after as much money as he wants from whatever franchise he wants, but anyone who buys into the garbage that he wants to be White Sox lifer without a truck load of cash as an incentive to stick around, should e-mail me as soon as possible, since I can offer you a chance to purchase the McCluggage bridge for less than 200,000 dollars.

Jjav829
04-17-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
More than likely, it's professional jealousy. KW had just 27 homeruns and 118 RBIs in 1154 ABs.

Players tend to overrate their own abilities, and KW views himself as a grinder who contributed the intangibles to help the team win.

KW views Thomas as someone who doesn't take the game seriously, and who has found success easy to come by. Most importantly, he doesn't fit KW's ideal what a Chicago White Sox player "should" possess to help this team win.

If KW is so jealous, how the hell can he even field a team? Seems to me that there are quite a few players on this team better than KW. Yet KW somehow manages to like them, except Frank. He's a huge fan of Carlos yet Carlos is a much better player than KW ever was. Same for Maggs. Sounds like you're really reaching here to try to find a way to defend Frank and bash KW...

Thomas is sincere in saying he wants to remain a White Sox for life. He's backed it up many times by sitting down with JR, and ironing out long-term contracts. Thomas has no ties to the city of Chicago, and has no reason to feel loyalty to this city or the franchise other than the fact that he was picked 7th in the 1989 amateur draft by this team. It's not like Barry Larkin's ties with the Cincinatti Reds, as Barry is a Cincinatti native. Yet, through all the years, the mutual respect that FT and JR have for each other has kept Thomas around.

Magglio, on the otherhand, is full of it. I sincerely doubt his loyalty to this franchise. If he wanted to remain a White Sox, he'd have his agent iron something out ASAP. His comments about wanting to remain a White Sox are just PR BS as far as I'm concerned, until he signs on the dotted line. He has every right to go after as much money as he wants from whatever franchise he wants, but anyone who buys into the garbage that he wants to be White Sox lifer without a truck load of cash as an incentive to stick around, should e-mail me as soon as possible, since I can offer you a chance to purchase the McCluggage bridge for less than 200,000 dollars.

Huh? This is absolutely ridiculous! I mean where do I start with the contradictions? First you say that Frank has no ties to Chicago and no reason to feel loyal, and then you insinuate that Magglio DOES have an obligation to feel loyalty to this city.

You imply that Frank is loyal because he has signed contracts here. Yet, you say that Magglio has the right to go after as much money as he can get, but that he wouldn't want to be a White Sox without a lot of money? LOL, you think Frank would have worked all those contracts out if not for the money? Those contracts Frank signed weren't exactly for pennies. He didn't say "O what the hell, I'll sign this contract and just eat McDonald's instead of Filet Mignon from now on just because I love the White Sox so much." If you actually believe that, then I'm guessing that chance to buy the McCluggage bridge is because you already own it....

Then you criticize Maggs for not having already signed a contract to show his loyalty. So answer me this question, if Frank is so loyal, what took him so long to exercise his option for this year? Why did it take him to the last day of the deadline for him to decide to exercise his option? Could it be that he was actually looking to see if he could get more money elsewhere?

Deadguy
04-17-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
So answer me this question, if Frank is so loyal, what took him so long to exercise his option for this year? Why did it take him to the last day of the deadline for him to decide to exercise his option? Could it be that he was actually looking to see if he could get more money elsewhere?

What the hell are you talking about?

This here shows how clueless you truly are to the situation.

Thomas had 5 days to make a decision, following the conclusion of the World Series.

During this 5 day stretch, he and his agent had zero chances to scope out the market. The clause was set up by Reinsdorf so that Thomas had to make a decision before players and agents could even start talking to other clubs. He and Arn had no idea what the market held for his services. So pease tell me how in the hell he had an opportunity to see if he could get more elsewhere, unless he went against MLB sanctioned rules?

He took the 5 days because he had the option to do so. He talked to KW, and KW informed him that he would not pick up the 8 million dollar option if Thomas decided to pick up his option. The only way Thomas remains in a White Sox uniform at that point, is to take the 6 million, which he did.

TornLabrum
04-17-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
There is a definite difference in commenting on a story with quotes than commenting on something I didn't see at all.

I find your bias quite interesting. The only point I have tried to make is that Frank was wrong in opening his mouth, whether Cowley asked him or Frank brought it up. I did not comment on Cowley's comment about PHG's wife, because I don't know what it is.

Assuming it was bad as you say, I'll say that Cowley was a dumbass for making such a comment. But I will also say that PHG was wrong for calling Cowley out when the problem really lies with Frank and not Cowley's reporting. Does that justify Cowley making a personal comment about someone else's wife? Hell no. Never did I insinuate that.

And based on Cowley's behavior around here, you trust anything he says or writes?

Jjav829
04-17-2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
What the hell are you talking about?

This here shows how clueless you truly are to the situation.

Thomas had 5 days to make a decision, following the conclusion of the World Series.

During this 5 day stretch, he and his agent had zero chances to scope out the market. The clause was set up by Reinsdorf so that Thomas had to make a decision before players and agents could even start talking to other clubs. He and Arn had no idea what the market held for his services. So pease tell me how in the hell he had an opportunity to see if he could get more elsewhere, unless he went against MLB sanctioned rules?

He took the 5 days because he had the option to do so. He talked to KW, and KW informed him that he would not pick up the 8 million dollar option if Thomas decided to pick up his option. The only way Thomas remains in a White Sox uniform at that point, is to take the 6 million, which he did.

Ok, so I exaggerated a little to make the point. The point was, if he is so loyal, why did he even have options to consider? I'll answer that for you. Because there is no athlete that is so loyal to a team that they would refuse a big payday.

"After weighing our options, we felt the best decision for Frank was to return to the White Sox,"

Quote from Arn Tellem. What do you think those other options were? Retirement? No. Try to start a football career? No. His option was to decline the guaranteed $17+ million and go after a bigger payday from another team. And yes I absolutely believe his agent went against MLB rules if you can even call it that. You don't think that happens all the time? Agents have ways of sending out feelers to see what the interest is for their client. If there was a team out there wanting to give Frank a big contract, Tellem would have found out about it assuming he's doing his job as an agent - which I have no reason to believe he isn't.

Continue living in a dreamworld where you feel your favorite player has some sort of loyalty to the White Sox if you wish. Bottom line is that there are few players willing to turn down a big payday just to stay with a team. Your insinuation that Maggs is somehow different from Frank is baseless. As I said before which you either didn't read, or chose to ignore, none of Franks's contracts were signed cheaply. He didn't choose to stay here just because he liked the Sox so much. Any and every contract he has signed was signed because he felt at the time that he was receiving a good salary. Unfortunately he doesn't like to stick to those contracts.

Maggs is no different than any other athlete (and yes believe it or not Frank is included in that) in wanting to see what he is worth before making a decision. Now if he (and his agent) feels that what the Sox are offering is what will he would get on the open market, then they may decide it's not worth turning it down to test Free Agency. But I don't think there is a single person (I'm assuming you'd agree with this by now) that would be foolish enough to think a player would turn down an extra $25 million just because they like being with one team. If it has ever happened then feel free to correct me because I don't know of one instance in the history of Free Agency in any sport where a player has turned down a significant amount of money to stay with one team.

voodoochile
04-17-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Ok, so I exaggerated a little to make the point. The point was, if he is so loyal, why did he even have options to consider? I'll answer that for you. Because there is no athlete that is so loyal to a team that they would refuse a big payday.



Quote from Arn Tellem. What do you think those other options were? Retirement? No. Try to start a football career? No. His option was to decline the guaranteed $17+ million and go after a bigger payday from another team. And yes I absolutely believe his agent went against MLB rules if you can even call it that. You don't think that happens all the time? Agents have ways of sending out feelers to see what the interest is for their client. If there was a team out there wanting to give Frank a big contract, Tellem would have found out about it assuming he's doing his job as an agent - which I have no reason to believe he isn't.

Continue living in a dreamworld where you feel your favorite player has some sort of loyalty to the White Sox if you wish. Bottom line is that there are few players willing to turn down a big payday just to stay with a team. Your insinuation that Maggs is somehow different from Frank is baseless. As I said before which you either didn't read, or chose to ignore, none of Franks's contracts were signed cheaply. He didn't choose to stay here just because he liked the Sox so much. Any and every contract he has signed was signed because he felt at the time that he was receiving a good salary. Unfortunately he doesn't like to stick to those contracts.

Maggs is no different than any other athlete (and yes believe it or not Frank is included in that) in wanting to see what he is worth before making a decision. Now if he (and his agent) feels that what the Sox are offering is what will he would get on the open market, then they may decide it's not worth turning it down to test Free Agency. But I don't think there is a single person (I'm assuming you'd agree with this by now) that would be foolish enough to think a player would turn down an extra $25 million just because they like being with one team. If it has ever happened then feel free to correct me because I don't know of one instance in the history of Free Agency in any sport where a player has turned down a significant amount of money to stay with one team.

Maybe. Maybe he really did want to finish his career here. Both are speculation neither one is confirmed. I imagine you are right, but quite possibly someone said, Hey frank, we'll give you 3 years $18M and Frank decided to stay in Chicago and forego the extra million.

No one really knows...

Like Galileo said, "It still moves." Frank is still here. Isn't that the final proof?

TommyJohn
04-18-2004, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
For all the vociferous, baseless garbage I've seen journalists hurl at professional athletes, you'd think they'd be less sensitive to criticism. I guess not. :whiner:

It's not uncommon to open up a newspaper, and see columnists spew out 2500 word columns that insult and smear the reputation of athletes and entertainers, with very little regard for concrete facts, all because it is their “job” to meet a certain deadline. If they're wrong, do we ever see retractions, or an open letter from an athlete or entertainer to shoot down the columnist's interpretations?

:moron

I resemble those remarks!!!

jabrch
04-18-2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
Everyone stop bashing Frank, let's see everyone here take a paycut from their jobs, and see if you will be happy!

A) I'd be thirlled to take that paycut that Frank took

B) If I signed my name on a contract, I'd honor that contract - and not bitch about it.

C) He could have walked in the offseason if he wanted to. He chose to come back here instead of go out and get the "respect" he wanted for LA of someone else.

jabrch
04-18-2004, 02:09 AM
I love Frank the hitter. But every time Frank opens his mouth about money he makes it harder and harder to understand why anyone would give him more "respect" than he already gets.

He had an optoin this year - he took it. If he felt he was worth more on the open market, and that was important to him, then why not leave? But why stick around and start off with the crying about money in the first month of the season?

Rex Hudler
04-18-2004, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And based on Cowley's behavior around here, you trust anything he says or writes?

Perhaps not, if this were the first time Frank had mysteriously whined about money at a time that made no sense. Cowley was not the villian with this story. Frank opened his mouth and should have inserted his foot.

inta
04-18-2004, 05:55 AM
**** frank thomas.

i want the guy to succeed and get and get another mvp trophy more than anyone. but why the hell does he pull this ***** crap at the worst times?

get your average above .340 and establish yourself as one of the great hitters again before you say this crap frank.
i mean seriously.... c'mon.

let sox management worry about signing someone with real skill.... like magglio.
stop making yourself a joke frank.

Jjav Edit: Please don't go around the swear filter.

TommyJohn
04-18-2004, 07:08 AM
:tomatoaward

TornLabrum
04-18-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
A) I'd be thirlled to take that paycut that Frank took

But would you be thrilled to take the percentage pay cut he took?

Didn't think so.

B) If I signed my name on a contract, I'd honor that contract - and not bitch about it. [/B]

No, but you might be looking for work someplace else that pays you more.

C) He could have walked in the offseason if he wanted to. He chose to come back here instead of go out and get the "respect" he wanted for LA of someone else. [/B]

He had a five day window to do so. To send out feelers before would be a violation of the CBA. How good are you at finding new jobs in five days, especially when you're not allowed to read the want ads?

TornLabrum
04-18-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Perhaps not, if this were the first time Frank had mysteriously whined about money at a time that made no sense. Cowley was not the villian with this story. Frank opened his mouth and should have inserted his foot.

I can agree that Frank should have kept his mouth shut. I also agree that Frank is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. What I find it hard to fathom is Cowley's assertion here that he didn't ask Frank a question...that Frank brought it up.

Maybe it's true, in which case Frank is even dumber than we think.

Brian26
04-18-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
A) I'd be thirlled to take that paycut that Frank took

Everything is a matter of perspective. Frank has a talent that neither you nor I have, and he deserves to make as much money as possible to take care of himself and his family. Yes, you and I would be happy with 5 million a year, but if we had over 400 homeruns and could still hit like Frank, we'd probably want a little more. I don't fault Frank for that....I do wish he would keep the matters out of the paper, though, and work it out with management.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-18-2004, 10:59 AM
I'd be thirlled to take that paycut that Frank took.

Duly noted. When you can hit something that even approaches the mediocre level of an everyday A.L. firstbasemen (like Paul Konerko's numbers, for example) we'll have a delightful discussion on how much less than $10 million you would settle for.

jabrch
04-18-2004, 11:23 AM
George, Hal, Brian,

He signed these deals. Why should we have sympathy for him? 5 days - so what? % of pay cut - so what? None of that stuff matters after you sign a contract. You are bound to honor it. To publicly try and renegotiate a deal is silly. If he thought he was worth more, he had 5 days to do it. Are you telling me that his agent couldn't contact 30 GMs in 5 days to see who was willing to give Frank his "respect"? Cuz I don't buy that. You can easily and quickly guage your maket value in that way.

In any case, if Frank has a problem with his earnings this year, he should address it in private with management at the appropriate time. I am fed up with hearing his annual salary complaints.

At the end of last season, he could have addressed this. At the end of this season, he can find out what market value is for him, and he can opt out of his deal. Now is not the time for that.

MarqSox
04-18-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I can agree that Frank should have kept his mouth shut. I also agree that Frank is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. What I find it hard to fathom is Cowley's assertion here that he didn't ask Frank a question...that Frank brought it up.

Maybe it's true, in which case Frank is even dumber than we think.
It doesn't sound that far-fetched to me. In Frank's confused mind, perhaps he thinks that by getting his complaints in the media, he'll get public support for his pay raise, and he realizes this may be a crucial time for it because the team is about to break the bank on Magglio. Obviously, if that's the case, he is woefully off target ... still, it's certainly plausible.

voodoochile
04-18-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
George, Hal, Brian,

He signed these deals. Why should we have sympathy for him? 5 days - so what? % of pay cut - so what? None of that stuff matters after you sign a contract. You are bound to honor it. To publicly try and renegotiate a deal is silly. If he thought he was worth more, he had 5 days to do it. Are you telling me that his agent couldn't contact 30 GMs in 5 days to see who was willing to give Frank his "respect"? Cuz I don't buy that. You can easily and quickly guage your maket value in that way.

In any case, if Frank has a problem with his earnings this year, he should address it in private with management at the appropriate time. I am fed up with hearing his annual salary complaints.

At the end of last season, he could have addressed this. At the end of this season, he can find out what market value is for him, and he can opt out of his deal. Now is not the time for that.

Legally speaking, Frank wasn't allowed to contact other teams. He had to guage his interest under the table and if anyone got caught, it could lead to tampering charges.

I am sure Arn has a few contacts and can feel somethings out, but it wasn't like they could send out a FedEx package to be delivered to all the league GM's at 9:00 AM the very first day of that 5 day window to see exactly how much he was worth.

Somewhere in that column was Frank's assertion that the team said they would consider rewriting his deal at the end of the year. If that is true, then this becomes even less of an issue.

Besides for all we know, Frank will be a FA at the end of the year. If he declines and the Sox decline, then he is in no different shape than Maggs. Perhaps this is his way of notifying management that he won't be taking his option this off-season.

I do agree that Frank needs to keep his yap shut, but there are other factors involved, IMO...

TornLabrum
04-18-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
George, Hal, Brian,

He signed these deals. Why should we have sympathy for him? 5 days - so what? % of pay cut - so what? None of that stuff matters after you sign a contract. You are bound to honor it. To publicly try and renegotiate a deal is silly. If he thought he was worth more, he had 5 days to do it. Are you telling me that his agent couldn't contact 30 GMs in 5 days to see who was willing to give Frank his "respect"? Cuz I don't buy that. You can easily and quickly guage your maket value in that way.

In any case, if Frank has a problem with his earnings this year, he should address it in private with management at the appropriate time. I am fed up with hearing his annual salary complaints.

At the end of last season, he could have addressed this. At the end of this season, he can find out what market value is for him, and he can opt out of his deal. Now is not the time for that.

Where did I ever say we should have sympathy for Thomas? I've said it is DUMB for him to even talk about it. On the other hand, I will defend Frank's (and every player's) right to seek renegotiation if the owners are willing to go along with it. I've also said that I seriously doubt that it was Thomas who brought it up. However, that has been contradicted by the eloquent Joe Cowley who says Frank brought it up...which just means that Frank is even more stupid for bringing up anything to a person who is such an obvious *******.

As far as the five days are concerned, he has that much time to make a deal or declare that he's staying with the Sox. Please note that I've said all along that Frank wants to stay with the Sox, so guess which choice he'll most likely make at the end of the five days.

To summarize my position: First, I like Frank as a player, but I don't think he's the smartest guy out there considering the way he continually sticks his foot into his mouth.

Second, I think Frank is a much better person than the media make him out to be based on my very indirect experiences with him.

Third, anyone who compares their situation with a person making baseball-player salaries needs to think in terms of percentages, not in terms of raw dollar amounts.

Fourth, when one looks at the time Frank has to decide whether or not to stay with the Sox, Frank will choose to stay unless somebody comes to him with an offer. The reason for this is quite simple. He doesn't have time to work out a deal otherwise.

I'd also like to add to point four that the mutual option clause could come back to bite the Sox in the ass. Frank could very well have a horrible season and come back for a raise any time during the life of the contract. He hasn't had a bad year yet, but that always could happen.

TornLabrum
04-18-2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Legally speaking, Frank wasn't allowed to contact other teams. He had to guage his interest under the table and if anyone got caught, it could lead to tampering charges.

I am sure Arn has a few contacts and can feel somethings out, but it wasn't like they could send out a FedEx package to be delivered to all the league GM's at 9:00 AM the very first day of that 5 day window to see exactly how much he was worth.

Somewhere in that column was Frank's assertion that the team said they would consider rewriting his deal at the end of the year. If that is true, then this becomes even less of an issue.

Besides for all we know, Frank will be a FA at the end of the year. If he declines and the Sox decline, then he is in no different shape than Maggs. Perhaps this is his way of notifying management that he won't be taking his option this off-season.

I do agree that Frank needs to keep his yap shut, but there are other factors involved, IMO...

Excellent points!

Fungo
04-18-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Third, anyone who compares their situation with a person making baseball-player salaries needs to think in terms of percentages, not in terms of raw dollar amounts.
I don't think anyone is comparing their salaries to these ball players. Frank's comments being put out in public aren't going to score him any pity from the average guy who works a normal 9-5 job. It's only gonna make him sound like another whiney athlete and I think that is the point everyone is tyring to make. He sounds alot like Leon of the Budweiser commercials, football player turned baseball player in the offseason.....$6 million just doesn't go as far as it used to.

This thread has been filled with some very good points. Kudos to all.

TornLabrum
04-18-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
I don't think anyone is comparing their salaries to these ball players. Frank's comments being put out in public aren't going to score him any pity from the average guy who works a normal 9-5 job. It's only gonna make him sound like another whiney athlete and I think that is the point everyone is tyring to make. He sounds alot like Leon of the Budweiser commercials, football player turned baseball player in the offseason.....$6 million just doesn't go as far as it used to.

This thread has been filled with some very good points. Kudos to all.

I've enjoyed this thread, too, both reading and participating in it.

Now as to your point about comparison of salaries, I was responding to the following point from jbrch:

A) I'd be thirlled to take that paycut that Frank took

I don't think anyone would be thrilled with the kind of percentage paycut he took...and when you're in that tax bracket that's the point. You don't look at raw dollars. You look at the percentages.

Yeah, I know, they all make an obscene amount of money. Hell, I'm a teacher, and I see the dollar value place on my profession, and I'm ready to scream bloody murder. But I've become accustomed to my lifestyle (such as it is) after 30 years on the job. Frank became accustomed to a certain lifestyle, too. So his cut in pay affects that just as a similar percentage increase affects my lifestyle.

And no, I'm not going to go out and have a benefit for him.

jabrch
04-19-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I've enjoyed this thread, too, both reading and participating in it.

Now as to your point about comparison of salaries, I was responding to the following point from jbrch:



I don't think anyone would be thrilled with the kind of percentage paycut he took...and when you're in that tax bracket that's the point. You don't look at raw dollars. You look at the percentages.


Hal, my only point was that he signed a contract where that was the terms of the deal. If he wasn't willing to abide by it, he shouldn't have signed it. If he felt in this offseason he was worth more than 6mm, he shouldn't have taken his 6mm option. And for the love of mercy, he has no business EVER complaining about it. Now I don't like Joe Crowley bringing this up either - but obviously Frank said something - I just can't fathom that.

voodoochile
04-19-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Hal, my only point was that he signed a contract where that was the terms of the deal. If he wasn't willing to abide by it, he shouldn't have signed it. If he felt in this offseason he was worth more than 6mm, he shouldn't have taken his 6mm option. And for the love of mercy, he has no business EVER complaining about it. Now I don't like Joe Crowley bringing this up either - but obviously Frank said something - I just can't fathom that.

When did Frank say he wouldn't honor it. All he said was he hopes the Sox make good on their promise to redo it at the end of the year if he has another good one.

Besides, with both sides having outs, what is the definition of honoring the contract? He can refuse to take his option and that still honors the contract. Then if the Sox refuse their option, he is a free agent. That honors the contract and still makes him available to the highest bidder.

I guess I'm confused as to what you are talking about... :?:

jabrch
04-19-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
When did Frank say he wouldn't honor it. All he said was he hopes the Sox make good on their promise to redo it at the end of the year if he has another good one.

Besides, with both sides having outs, what is the definition of honoring the contract? He can refuse to take his option and that still honors the contract. Then if the Sox refuse their option, he is a free agent. That honors the contract and still makes him available to the highest bidder.

I guess I'm confused as to what you are talking about... :?:


IMHO, it isn't honorable to bitch about your contract after you signed it. Next year, we will have mutual options again, right? 8 for Frank and 11 for the team, right. Then the next year it is 10 and 12 with a 3.5mm buyout, right? So why would the team tear up his deal and give him a new one? He can earn, guaranteed, 24mm in salary the next three seasons + bonuses for top 10 MVP finishes. To me, it is Pippenesquely dishonorable to even mention new contracts. Do you think if he were hittting .220 with a .260 obp, that he would renegotiate the deal down for the team?

voodoochile
04-19-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
IMHO, it isn't honorable to bitch about your contract after you signed it. Next year, we will have mutual options again, right? 8 for Frank and 11 for the team, right. Then the next year it is 10 and 12 with a 3.5mm buyout, right? So why would the team tear up his deal and give him a new one? He can earn, guaranteed, 24mm in salary the next three seasons + bonuses for top 10 MVP finishes. To me, it is Pippenesquely dishonorable to even mention new contracts. Do you think if he were hittting .220 with a .260 obp, that he would renegotiate the deal down for the team?

That is a far cry from the other meaning of honor/abide which you used in your previous post.

I have no comment. You will believe what you want to believe and I doubt I will ever change your mind.

I agree that Frank should keep his mouth shut about contracts until the end of the season.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-19-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That is a far cry from the other meaning of honor/abide which you used in your previous post....

It also raises obvious questions about what else is deemed dishonorable about "bitching" and abiding by contracts. The longer some of us whine about "dishonor" in this situation, the more obvious their double-standard on the subject becomes.

So what do we know about the man who negotiated the other side of the deal that Frank "bitches" about today?

He spent most of the 80's publicly bitching about the deal he agreed to pay Julio Cruz.

He bitched publicly to the press about the "handshake deal" and "my word is my bond" honor he negotiated behind the back of Horace Grant's agent.

He has done *nothing* but bitch about the CBA deal that he and his fellow owners negotiated, going all the way back to the early-90's, even whining that he must pay what his dumbest competitor would pay. Yeah, that's honorable.

Many ballplayers and agents won't negotiate with the Sox anymore because of Reinsdorf's reputation for underhanded if not downright unethical negotiating strategies. Frank's "guaranteed money" long-term deal that in fact included an out-clause for JR is only the most obvious manifestation of this "dishonorable" practice. Bill Veeck at least possessed the "honor" of selling the ballclub when he was similarly 8-balled back in the late-70's. So what is Reinsdorf's excuse?

Yes, it seems we're being a bit selective to suggest Frank is the one "Pippenesquely dishonorable." But hey, it could be worse. He could be accused of being Reinsdorfesquely dishonorable!

:o:

Realist
04-19-2004, 04:13 PM
"My job right now is to pull these guys together, keep a happy face and keep this thing going for us, because I have a feeling it's going to be a special year," Thomas said Thursday. "All I'm looking for now is a ring. That's the chase for me now, a ring. All the individual stuff, I could care less about now, and for the first time it comes from my heart when I say that. I could care less when it comes to my numbers."

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/191sd2.htm

TornLabrum
04-19-2004, 08:37 PM
Quote: "My job right now is to pull these guys together, keep a happy face and keep this thing going for us, because I have a feeling it's going to be a special year," Thomas said Thursday. "All I'm looking for now is a ring. That's the chase for me now, a ring. All the individual stuff, I could care less about now, and for the first time it comes from my heart when I say that. I could care less when it comes to my numbers."

Yup...the part that nobody quotes.

jabrch
04-19-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It also raises obvious questions about what else is deemed dishonorable about "bitching" and abiding by contracts. The longer some of us whine about "dishonor" in this situation, the more obvious their double-standard on the subject becomes.

So what do we know about the man who negotiated the other side of the deal that Frank "bitches" about today?

He spent most of the 80's publicly bitching about the deal he agreed to pay Julio Cruz.

He bitched publicly to the press about the "handshake deal" and "my word is my bond" honor he negotiated behind the back of Horace Grant's agent.

He has done *nothing* but bitch about the CBA deal that he and his fellow owners negotiated, going all the way back to the early-90's, even whining that he must pay what his dumbest competitor would pay. Yeah, that's honorable.

Many ballplayers and agents won't negotiate with the Sox anymore because of Reinsdorf's reputation for underhanded if not downright unethical negotiating strategies. Frank's "guaranteed money" long-term deal that in fact included an out-clause for JR is only the most obvious manifestation of this "dishonorable" practice. Bill Veeck at least possessed the "honor" of selling the ballclub when he was similarly 8-balled back in the late-70's. So what is Reinsdorf's excuse?

Yes, it seems we're being a bit selective to suggest Frank is the one "Pippenesquely dishonorable." But hey, it could be worse. He could be accused of being Reinsdorfesquely dishonorable!

:o:

Although he bitched about the Cruz deal, you NEVER heard him try and renegotiate it. He knew he was stuck to it. He HONORED that deal, right?

Look, I am not even going to spend any time defending JR. I don't care to. It's not "clean feeling" to me. But at the same time, I get tired of Frank's almost annual "respect" issues. Opt out of the deal if you are being so disrespected. Find someone who respects you more. Just don't accept a level of respect and then complain about it.

Lip Man 1
04-19-2004, 09:53 PM
Just some food for thoughts comments regarding Pale Hose George's posts for what they are worth:

"A lot of people say athletes don't deserve to get the money they get, but the one law of economics that has never been repealed is the law of supply and demand. There is a very small supply of athletes who have the ability to play at the major league level in any sport--and the demand is great enough that they command these salaries because that's the law of economics." –Jerry Reinsdorf to Terry Savage Chicago Sun Times July 30, 2000.

“One time I was talking with Jerry Reinsdorf and he told me the reason the Sox wouldn’t go out and sign any big name, big money free agents is because they were concerned about how I’d react to it. We had those contract issues all those years and they thought I’d get angry over it. I looked at him and said it wouldn’t bother me, especially if I was looking at my World Series ring! All I ever wanted to do was win, I didn’t care how much somebody else made."–Jack McDowell to WSI’s Mark Liptak. From his interview December 23, 2002.

“He loved baseball and had expended much energy in the running of the White Sox, but his involvement in baseball had created one public relations disaster after another. By Reinsdorf’s own admission, his early threats to move the team out of Chicago if he didn’t get public cooperation in building a new Comiskey Park became the bedrock of his negative public image. In the wake of that came his role in the ugly relations between baseball’s owners and players. Added to that were the machinations over his tinkering with the White Sox roster. Many of the owners initiatives have been misinterpreted or misunderstood by the public, largely because Reinsdorf seemed to disdain the process of communicating with the fans of the teams he managed. ‘I don’t care about public relations,’ had been Reinsdorf’s patent answer on these issues. What Reinsdorf appeared to mean was that he didn’t care about popularity contests. But that disdain for the process had often come across as a disregard for the fans, his paying customers.” – Roland Lazenby From the book Blood On The Horns. Pgs. 91-92.

“Several hard-line owners who favor an all out war with the union-similar to the one that resulted in the sixty-day midseason strike of 1981-have sided with Selig and Reinsdorf. Put Gene Autry of the Angels, Carl Pohland of the Twins and Doug Danforth of the Pirates in that group. ‘We have a small group of extreme owners who fantasize that they’re just one showdown (with the union) away from nirvana,’ said a member of baseball’s Executive Council. ‘They don’t seem to have much sense of baseball history.”–Thomas Boswell, columnist, Washington Post, July 8, 1992.

“The players bridled, in turn, when David Glass (the Royals owner) began the second day’s meeting with a homily on how they should help baseball better compete for the entertainment dollar. Nor did the players’ mood brighten when Jerry Reinsdorf offered his version of ‘Give us a number!’ ‘Let’s do a deal,’ he said, ‘Just tell us the percentage you want.’ There was no response. Reinsdorf persisted: ‘What percentage do you want?’ ‘How much profit do you want?’ Don Fehr finally shot back. That was the end of the sessions and as it turned out, the end of the meetings.” – From the book The Lords Of The Realm by John Helyar. Pg. 599-600.

“Jerry Reinsdorf was not used to losing battles. The White Sox, which he almost lost to increasing debts a few years after putting together a group of investors for the team, had become the second most profitable team in baseball, and was successful on the field as well. Baseball, was without a commissioner, due largely to Reinsdorf’s manipulations, and the baseball union was naming him the power behind the management- labor struggle that had brought the sport to a standstill.”– Sam Smith. From the book Second Coming. Pg. 15.

“The Sox had their best team decades- led by guitar-playing pitcher Jack McDowell and young slugger Frank Thomas, they were 21 games over .500 when baseball shut down- only to see it neutered by the strike, with management’s biggest nut cutter being the Sox’ chairman, Jerry Reinsdorf. “ – Rick Telander from the Sports Illustrated story, Hey Chicago, Wait Till This Year. April 7, 2003.

“When (Horace) Grant left Reinsdorf’s office, he said he called his agent Jimmy Sexton from his car phone. Sexton described him as ‘very emotional.’ ‘Jimmy, the guy just tried to negotiate with me without getting you involved.’ Sexton had Grant fax over the piece of paper they had scribbled on, the proposed contract in Reinsdorf’s view. ‘I swear on my grandfather’s grave, I didn’t agree to anything,’ said Grant, who related that same story, off the record, to at least one reporter. ‘If I did agree, then why didn’t I just sign the paper?.’ Sexton’s biggest problem with Reinsdorf’s story is that this somehow was a ‘spur of the moment’ offer. ‘If your going to do a handshake deal with a player...I don’t think you take the time to write it on a legal pad and ask the player to sign it.’ ‘He talks about the morality of sports,’ Grant said. ‘Why would anyone want to negotiate with me without my representative there?’– Horace Grant & Jimmy Sexton to Melissa Issacson. From the book Transition Game. Pgs. 77- 79.

"There was plenty of time to work it out if [the Sox] had serious interest," Jose Torres the agent for Roberto Alomar said."They wanted to sign him to a deal without my involvement.” – from a story in the Chicago Tribune January 8, 2004.

On the ‘new’ Comiskey Park: “In Chicago, the White Sox had the good manners not to say that six-year-old Comiskey Park was nothing more then a gaudier Three Rivers Stadium, but owner Jerry Reinsdorf had begun to “Seligize”- to publicly and loudly ruminate about the park’s future.”– Keith Olbermann. From the book The Big Show, Inside ESPN’s SportsCenter Pg. 192.

“The lease Reinsdorf got from the Illinois Sports Authority deserved immediate induction into the Sweetheart-Deal Hall Of Fame. The White Sox would get the new Comiskey Park rent free up to 1.2 million in attendance each year. Above that, the Illinois Sports Authority got $2.50 a ticket. The White Sox would also give the authority 35 percent of its broadcast and advertising revenues over $10 million. But the White Sox got back $5 million a year for upkeep, repairs and insurance. After the first ten years of the twenty-year lease, the authority would buy 300,000 tickets if attendance fell below 1.5 million.”– From the book The Lords of The Realm by John Helyar Pg. 483.

"We don't have any definitive plans. We built a modern stadium with wide aisles and no obstructed seats, and I think it's a beautiful ballpark. The first year it was acclaimed, and then Camden Yards and Jacobs Field were built, and people came to like the retro look. But those ballparks have a lot of deficiencies, like obstructed seats. But we're sort of in the retail business, and we have to give our customers what they want whenever possible, so we're examining the possibilities." – Jerry Reinsdorf to Terry Savage Chicago Sun Times July 30, 2000.

“I think if we do a renovation in this ballpark it would be with private money, some of which might come from selling naming rights." – Jerry Reinsdorf to Terry Savage Chicago Sun Times July 30, 2000

“When the new stadium was announced I know some his (Jerry Reinsdorf’s) limited partners started grumbling because they felt that after a few years, the novelty of a new stadium would wear off and they’d be right back with the same attendance troubles. They were disappointed with the location of the new stadium.”– Rich Lindberg to Mark Liptak in his White Sox Interactive interview. April 14, 2002.

"Comiskey Park is not getting ready to fall down, but I would be very surprised if Comiskey Park, as we know it today, will exist in 25 years. We'll either need a new park or a Yankee Stadium-style renovation." –Jerry Reinsdorf to Bob Ryan, Boston Globe. August 5, 1985.

Lip

PaleHoseGeorge
04-19-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Although he bitched about the Cruz deal, you NEVER heard him try and renegotiate it. He knew he was stuck to it. He HONORED that deal, right?

Look, I am not even going to spend any time defending JR. I don't care to. It's not "clean feeling" to me. But at the same time, I get tired of Frank's almost annual "respect" issues. Opt out of the deal if you are being so disrespected. Find someone who respects you more. Just don't accept a level of respect and then complain about it.

This is a distinction without a difference. Reinsdorf whined long and hard about the Cruz deal, and he made it abundantly clear he should have been able to renegotiate the terms -- and he has been bitching bitching bitching about the CBA ever since.

As it was he used his inability to change the terms of Cruz's deal as AN EXCUSE for crippling the team for years afterwards by not spending more on ballplayers. In fact I would argue Reinsdorf is STILL whining about the Cruz deal as the Sox have a well-deserved reputation for being stingy offering long-term deals to anyone-- especially for pitchers.

But I guess that's okay and "honorable" in your book? Whatever...

Brian26
04-19-2004, 10:04 PM
Does anyone here actually know how long the Juice Cruz contract lasted? I believe they signed him right after the '83 season. Anyone know how much it was for and for how long? My biggest memory of that whole situation was Chet Coppock and Hawk Harrelson rallying for Cruz on the radio, hoping the Sox would sign him.

voodoochile
04-19-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Does anyone here actually know how long the Juice Cruz contract lasted? I believe they signed him right after the '83 season. Anyone know how much it was for and for how long? My biggest memory of that whole situation was Chet Coppock and Hawk Harrelson rallying for Cruz on the radio, hoping the Sox would sign him.

They're still paying him...

Cubbiesuck13
04-19-2004, 10:22 PM
lip, you the man. How much time did you spend on that.

jabrch
04-19-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is a distinction without a difference. Reinsdorf whined long and hard about the Cruz deal, and he made it abundantly clear he should have been able to renegotiate the terms -- and he has been bitching bitching bitching about the CBA ever since.

As it was he used his inability to change the terms of Cruz's deal as AN EXCUSE for crippling the team for years afterwards by not spending more on ballplayers. In fact I would argue Reinsdorf is STILL whining about the Cruz deal as the Sox have a well-deserved reputation for being stingy offering long-term deals to anyone-- especially for pitchers.

But I guess that's okay and "honorable" in your book? Whatever...

No George, I dislike Reinsdorf very much. Nowhere did I call him honorable. I challenge you to find that statement.

JR is a scumbag. He has singlehandedly been responsible for this team not being great, all the while Frank Thomas has been one of the few people responsible for the successes that we have had. ALMOST NOBODY DISPUTES THAT. But that doesn't excuse Frank's behavior in my eyes. I don't understand why you can't see that. You are a smart guy. You understand why a person should honor a contract they sign, and not bitch almost every year afterwards that they are underpaid.

Just cuz JR is a douchebag doesn't mean it is an excuse for Frank to be one to, does it? I don't think so. I'd rather our best player also not be a douchebag, wouldn't you?

jabrch
04-19-2004, 11:04 PM
Lip, I read all the quotes - what was the point? I agree JR is a scumbag, and is mostly responsible for some of this team's failures to win a championship in the past 20+ years. But can you tell me what the tie is too all those quotes, or are they just all random anti-JR stuff you have collected?

Brian26
04-20-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They're still paying him...

They signed him to a 20-year contract? Come on.

When did it seriously expire? Was it a 5 or 6 year contract at the time?

Brian26
04-20-2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They're still paying him...

By the way, Voodoo, is that the actual logo you're using for your restaurant?

jabrch
04-20-2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
They signed him to a 20-year contract? Come on.

When did it seriously expire? Was it a 5 or 6 year contract at the time?

I am pretty sure it was a 6 year deal signed in 1984.

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
By the way, Voodoo, is that the actual logo you're using for your restaurant?

No, but WU made it and I like it for my signature. I actually feel guilty he made it a month ago and I just forgot to put it in. Never want WU to feel unappreciated.

You are correct that the contract was over a long time ago, but the deferred money is still being paid. At least I think that is correct, maybe it was a buyout that caused the payments to continue this long.

Iwritecode
04-20-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
If it has ever happened then feel free to correct me because I don't know of one instance in the history of Free Agency in any sport where a player has turned down a significant amount of money to stay with one team.

Jose Valentin.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2004, 01:52 PM
The posts were random selections from a very, very long audio interactive story that I'm doing for WSI called Jerry Reinsdorf: In Their Own Words.

PHG was mentioning in his posts the 'honorable' theme and I just wanted to provide some items for discussion along those lines.

The story by the way, also has many positive comments from people about good ole Uncle Jerry, especially those who have worked for him at one time or another.

Not trying to make a point here...just providing some material for PHG's theme.

Lip

jackbrohamer
04-20-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is a distinction without a difference. Reinsdorf whined long and hard about the Cruz deal, and he made it abundantly clear he should have been able to renegotiate the terms -- and he has been bitching bitching bitching about the CBA ever since.

Also, Reinsdorf's only choices were to pay Cruz, or to not pay him and have Cruz sue him for breach of contract. There was no "honor" in Reinsdorf "honoring" the contract.

The people who rip Thomas for complaining about his prior contract ignore the fact that that it took a truly sick mind, like Reinsdorf's, to come up with something like a "Diminishing Skills Clause" in the first place. Thomas may have been foolish for signing it, but it's pitiful that a team owner would offer a contract that was absolutely guaranteed to humiliate his star player sooner or later.

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Jose Valentin.

Years ago, Greg Maddux turned down an extra million from the flubbies to go play for the Braves.

Karl Malone and Gary Payton both signed for under market value to play for the Lakers this year. I imagine Jjav blocked that out of his mind though - Kings fan that he is... :D:

jabrch
04-20-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The posts were random selections from a very, very long audio interactive story that I'm doing for WSI called Jerry Reinsdorf: In Their Own Words.

PHG was mentioning in his posts the 'honorable' theme and I just wanted to provide some items for discussion along those lines.

The story by the way, also has many positive comments from people about good ole Uncle Jerry, especially those who have worked for him at one time or another.

Not trying to make a point here...just providing some material for PHG's theme.

Lip

ok - Thanks. I look forward to the story.

jabrch
04-20-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
Also, Reinsdorf's only choices were to pay Cruz, or to not pay him and have Cruz sue him for breach of contract. There was no "honor" in Reinsdorf "honoring" the contract.

The people who rip Thomas for complaining about his prior contract ignore the fact that that it took a truly sick mind, like Reinsdorf's, to come up with something like a "Diminishing Skills Clause" in the first place. Thomas may have been foolish for signing it, but it's pitiful that a team owner would offer a contract that was absolutely guaranteed to humiliate his star player sooner or later.

Well - doesn't Thomas have no choice but to honor his contract either? No - he can complain about it, like he has before - and appears to be doing again.

As far as the diminishing skills clause, I have no sympathy for Frank, and lay no blame on JR for that. If Frank thought it was so bad, he didn't have to agree to it.

Look, I hate JR. He is a majority of the reason this team never was able to do more than it has in the past 30 years while I have been alive. But I won't bash him for things that I don't think warrant bashing, and I won't say that his crappy behaviour is justification for Frank to be a douchebag.

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Well - doesn't Thomas have no choice but to honor his contract either? No - he can complain about it, like he has before - and appears to be doing again.

As far as the diminishing skills clause, I have no sympathy for Frank, and lay no blame on JR for that. If Frank thought it was so bad, he didn't have to agree to it.

Look, I hate JR. He is a majority of the reason this team never was able to do more than it has in the past 30 years while I have been alive. But I won't bash him for things that I don't think warrant bashing, and I won't say that his crappy behaviour is justification for Frank to be a douchebag.

Which still brings us back to the point that Frank can honor his contract 100% and STILL end up a FA at the end of the year.

jabrch
04-20-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Which still brings us back to the point that Frank can honor his contract 100% and STILL end up a FA at the end of the year.

That is true - but it is not "honorable" to bitch about a contract. You can legally honor your contract and still be completely dishonorable about it, right? Frank has an obligation in my eyes to do both. To honor the contract he signed, and to be an honorable teammate/leader/player at the same time.

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
That is true - but it is not "honorable" to bitch about a contract. You can legally honor your contract and still be completely dishonorable about it, right? Frank has an obligation in my eyes to do both. To honor the contract he signed, and to be an honorable teammate/leader/player at the same time.

I would think the players put less stock in that stuff than you think. Every single one of them is probably on his side and wants to make more money themselves.

jabrch
04-20-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I would think the players put less stock in that stuff than you think. Every single one of them is probably on his side and wants to make more money themselves.

I don't disagree with you in the slightest VC. They all want that. But that still doesn't justify it any more than the fact that Bud Selig would back JR in his efforts to keep salaries down, or that one umpire would support another who made a bad call.

My only problem is that I don't respect that sort of behaviour. You signed a contract - I don't care for how much - no shut your yap and honor it. If you don't like it, you should never have signed it. Live on year to year 1 year deals if you want - you will always get market value.

I really love Frank the Hitter. He is the best Sox hitter I have seen in my life - bar none. But the rest of the stuff makes it hard for me to like him so much. (Does he care if I like him? No - I highly doubt it. But I am entitled to that opinion, right?)

Lip Man 1
04-20-2004, 09:10 PM
And let's not forget the 'unique' clauses in Albert Belle's deal that kicked in after the second year!

This organization had no intention of keeping him long term, they made sure of that in the contract.

Lip

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I don't disagree with you in the slightest VC. They all want that. But that still doesn't justify it any more than the fact that Bud Selig would back JR in his efforts to keep salaries down, or that one umpire would support another who made a bad call.

My only problem is that I don't respect that sort of behaviour. You signed a contract - I don't care for how much - no shut your yap and honor it. If you don't like it, you should never have signed it. Live on year to year 1 year deals if you want - you will always get market value.

I really love Frank the Hitter. He is the best Sox hitter I have seen in my life - bar none. But the rest of the stuff makes it hard for me to like him so much. (Does he care if I like him? No - I highly doubt it. But I am entitled to that opinion, right?)

Sure, I was just about to say that it appears to be a personal thing for you. Just so you don't think it impacts the team in the slightest so long as Frank hits.

In the end it becomes about principals, which is fine, but it doesn't mean much in the day to day operations of the team.

jabrch
04-21-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Sure, I was just about to say that it appears to be a personal thing for you. Just so you don't think it impacts the team in the slightest so long as Frank hits.

In the end it becomes about principals, which is fine, but it doesn't mean much in the day to day operations of the team.

Agreed - it doesn't really impact the team that much.

It isn't "personal" - I don't know the man, and have no personal issues with him. As I have said a number of times, he is, without a doubt, the best hitter this team has had in my lifetime, and the primary reason why we won so many games between 90 and 2004.

I am a huge sports fan and I think these guys earn every penny they make. But I don't feel that they have a right to complain that they aren't making enough. I'll take that one step further - they have an obligation not to complain. We working stiffs, whether we make 30,000, 75,000, or even 250,000 are spending our hard earned and limited funds to enjoy the game of baseball. I know money is a part of the game in this day and age, but I find it dishonorable of a star player already making millions to complain about a contract that he signed. It's not personal. I hated when Pippen did it. I hate it when any players hold out to renegotiate deals. I just expect more out of these guys. Most of them recognize how fortunate they are. I just don't enjoy hearing a guy who is so blessed complaining about "respect" and that his 6mm that he chose to play for is not enough and that he should be making more. If you don't like it, shut your mouth and DONT TAKE THE OPTION TO STAY.

jabrch
04-21-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
And let's not forget the 'unique' clauses in Albert Belle's deal that kicked in after the second year!

This organization had no intention of keeping him long term, they made sure of that in the contract.

Lip


What's wrong with that Lip? Again, if Albert didn't like it, he had other offers out there. Why sign the deal?

Lip Man 1
04-21-2004, 01:56 PM
Jab:

The point is that good ole Uncle Jerry had no intention of keeping Belle even if he hit 60 home runs. His signing was a PR ploy and a way to stick it to the other MLB owners who dared to settle the strike.

That's no way to run a team is it?

And by the way as much of an ass as Belle was he still hit 48 home runs and drove in a ton of RBI's. Yet the Sox said that wasn't worth an extra one million dollars in salary which is what the Sox could have paid to keep him around. Yet they went out and had no problem with giving money to Jamie Navarro.

Now you can argue that it's a good thing they didn't because Belle got hurt but that's 20/20 hindsight. No guarantees that history turns out the same if they did keep him.

There is a reason ownership has these goofy Reinsdorfian clauses in deals and it's not because they are trying to improve the team with a long term financial committment is it?

Lip

Brian26
04-21-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jab:

The point is that good ole Uncle Jerry had no intention of keeping Belle even if he hit 60 home runs. His signing was a PR ploy and a way to stick it to the other MLB owners who dared to settle the strike.

It's an interesting topic. He signed Belle after the '96 season, but effectively gave up and started rebuilding in mid '97 (which has been talked about here in the past, as the Sox were only 3 games out). The White Flag trade effectively removed them from contention not only for the rest of '97, but for the entire '98 season too. You have to wonder what kind of first half of the '97 season Reinsdorf expected or wanted to see out of his players to actually keep the squad together and go for it all. Did he need a 5 game lead over Cleveland to be happy? Just a first place team with as little as a half game lead? A ten game lead? Blowing up the team so early (ie half a season after Belle was signed) after investing so much in them (ie the Belle contract) doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless it was premeditated. Anyone know what kind of attendance the Sox had during the first half of '97? Any chance that had MORE to do with the White Flag trade than the actual record of the team?

lavagurl
04-21-2004, 03:01 PM
Oh, come on, he's still here, can't he just be happy about that?
Every season, it's the same thing.

jabrch
04-21-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jab:

The point is that good ole Uncle Jerry had no intention of keeping Belle even if he hit 60 home runs. His signing was a PR ploy and a way to stick it to the other MLB owners who dared to settle the strike.

That's no way to run a team is it?

And by the way as much of an ass as Belle was he still hit 48 home runs and drove in a ton of RBI's. Yet the Sox said that wasn't worth an extra one million dollars in salary which is what the Sox could have paid to keep him around. Yet they went out and had no problem with giving money to Jamie Navarro.

Now you can argue that it's a good thing they didn't because Belle got hurt but that's 20/20 hindsight. No guarantees that history turns out the same if they did keep him.

There is a reason ownership has these goofy Reinsdorfian clauses in deals and it's not because they are trying to improve the team with a long term financial committment is it?

Lip

I would say that JR puts those clauses into contracts so he has "insurance" of sorts - that should something happen, he has an out. I agree with you - his goal is to avoid any long term financial committment when he can. I agree also that, in general, winning teams don't operate like that (last year's Marlins being a noteworthy exception). I agree JR is a jerk - and one of the main reasons why we still haven't won a playoff series in my lifetime. But these guys who accept these clauses thinking there is no waay their skills will diminish, or that teams won't want to pay them in the top 5 OFs or whatever the Belle deal was, are fooling themselves. That's fine with me, but I just believe if you sign a deal, you should honor it, in an honorable manner.

steff
04-21-2004, 04:35 PM
Albert's deal - at his and Arn's request - was that he be in the top 3 highest paid players. And FWIW.. he didn't want to stay here. And I can't imagine why not.. the Sox have such a fabulous track record in keeping their players happy. .. :rolleyes.

jabrch
04-21-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by steff
Albert's deal - at his and Arn's request - was that he be in the top 3 highest paid players. And FWIW.. he didn't want to stay here. And I can't imagine why not.. the Sox have such a fabulous track record in keeping their players happy. .. :rolleyes.

Thanks Steff - yeah, I don't have any problem with clauses like that on either side. If a player wants insurance that he reamains highly paid relative to his peers, negotiate it into the deal. If an owner wants to assure that he isn't overpaying, negotiate that into the deal. I just don't like the practice of trying to change a deal long after it is done. You sign your name to a deal, you are then obligated to honor your deal in an honorable manner.

Lip Man 1
04-21-2004, 10:10 PM
Brian:

Remember also about 97 was that Ventura had that horriffic injury just a few days before the season started. This club was shocked and that showed on the field when they started 8-17. The 97 club had also lost Alex Fernandez when it was ruled that (with the strike serverence time added) he was a free agent. The Sox didn't think he was going to be and simply made him a token offer one week before he left for Florida.

I still have the stories from the Tribune and Sun Times from the day after Ventura's injury quoting then GM Ron Schueler as saying that he'd be on the market for another left handed hitter and a capable 3rd baseman. Instead he did nothing. Wonder why??

I would have to think, and maybe Steff can find this out for sure, that the Belle signing in November of 96 led to a flurry of ticket sales.

You're right...what does Uncle Jerry want? and as I've asked in the past, why won't he ever give us specifics on what would make his organization happy regarding attendence.

And Steff is correct, Belle had to be one of the top three players, the price to keep him would have been a raise of one million per season.

Lip

steff
04-21-2004, 10:43 PM
Gee.. I was right.. go figure :D:


Not sure about ticket sales (I assume you mean season tickets..?) I can ask though.

JorgeFabregas
04-26-2004, 01:23 AM
Not really related to contract talks, but it's interesting that Frank is, I believe, currently leading the team in OPS, runs, and, of course, walks despite a pretty underwhelming start to the season for him.

WhiteSox = Life
04-26-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by JorgeFabregas
Not really related to contract talks, but it's interesting that Frank is, I believe, currently leading the team in OPS, runs, and, of course, walks despite a pretty underwhelming start to the season for him.

Now, there's a name!

Enjoy your time at WSI.

Hmm... It doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

:D: