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View Full Version : Would a loss have been more beneficial?


jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 05:47 PM
People are no doubt going to flip out at this post but here it goes anyways. Part of me wonders if Koch wouldn't have been on a shorter leash due to public opinion as a result of the heartbreaking nature of two horrendous losses in the 9th inning early in the season. Having won, I wonder if Koch won't get more opportunities, blow more games in high leverage situations than he'd otherwise have the chance to, and therefore lead us to lose more games in the long run that if we'd lost today.

SoxFan78
04-14-2004, 05:49 PM
I dont think that he will be thrown out there more often just because we won. He blew a big lead going into the ninth. We won just because of KC's bullpen and some good hits. The sox need to really evalulate their bullpen because what we have now is not gonna get us to the playoffs. Thank god this is happening within the first month of the season.

sas1974
04-14-2004, 05:50 PM
I think his performance speaks for itself and will be considered separately from the team's ability to come back. Let's hope!

rdivaldi
04-14-2004, 05:50 PM
Absolutely not. Oz can see what happened win or lose. Koch just simply stunk up the joint, and we need to find someone who can finish out the games.

Geeterman1
04-14-2004, 05:52 PM
:threadsucks:

mweflen
04-14-2004, 05:54 PM
yes - a loss is NEVER more beneficial, especially in a division like ours.

It's obvious to everyone in the dugout who's getting it done and who's not. Hopefully, Coop can do something/say something/perform some voodoo ritual to address whatever is up with the pen (and Koch in particular, this game)

DSpivack
04-14-2004, 05:57 PM
Last year we would have given up after Koch blows it. This year the Sox did not. In no way is a loss ever better than a win.

kittle545feet
04-14-2004, 05:57 PM
i think ozzie has got good feel for the team and knows that koch just doesn't have it right now. (or since he's been with the sox for that matter) you can't keep sending a guy to the mound who does not have the confidence of his teammates and i don't think koch has that right now. we were very lucky to overcome a loss today. there is no way i could have handled giving them another game in the 9th. either way, i think the games have shown kenny williams what our weak spot is and if he is serious about contending, he will start looking for help now.

Baby Fisk
04-14-2004, 05:57 PM
Why compound the Koch-induced grief with a loss on top? Koch just took a year off everyone's life and must go! The fact that we won this game may have spared his life, but he must be banished!

soxfan26
04-14-2004, 06:01 PM
A guy that can turn a three run ninth inning lead into a one run defecit doesn't belong in the game. period. Especially not in the closer's role.

MRKARNO
04-14-2004, 07:02 PM
The win doesnt cheapen Koch's terrible performance.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Geeterman1
:threadsucks:

You beat me to it, but what the heck...

:threadsucks

No Loss is EVER beneficial. Big picture is what matters in the long run...

TornLabrum
04-14-2004, 07:28 PM
I've always said that a loss is better than a win in the long run.

jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You beat me to it, but what the heck...

:threadsucks

No Loss is EVER beneficial. Big picture is what matters in the long run...

That's horrible reasoning. The big picture is what does matter in the long run and that's your record after 162 games. You might disagree with me but its certainly not completely inconcievable that winning this game could give Koch more chances and he could blow three games down the line that he wouldn't have appeared in with the game on the line had we won today. If you want say no, Ozzie would never think that way even subconsciously. Fine, I can accept that. But there's no arguing that in that hypothetical situation the net result would be two extra losses and that is the bottom line.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-14-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Would a loss have been more beneficial?

The short answer to your question is, "No."

The premise of your question is silly too, since it is predicated on the notion that Ozzie Guillen is too stupid to know Koch had a terrible outing *unless* Koch actually loses the game. If Guillen is truly that stupid, jeremy we Sox Fans are ****ed regardless.

This is a terribly weak argument, and most likely a poorly constructed troll as well.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
That's horrible reasoning. The big picture is what does matter in the long run and that's your record after 162 games. You might disagree with me but its certainly not completely inconcievable that winning this game could give Koch more chances and he could blow three games down the line that he wouldn't have appeared in with the game on the line had we won today. If you want say no, Ozzie would never think that way even subconsciously. Fine, I can accept that. But there's no arguing that in that hypothetical situation the net result would be two extra losses and that is the bottom line.

And hypothetically, this win for the Sox/ loss for the Royals could set the Sox off on a tear and set the Royals off on a slide thus making up way more games than your 2.

In reality, no loss is ever benficial, ever, period.

TornLabrum
04-14-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The short answer to your question is, "No."

The premise of your question is silly too, since it is predicated on the notion that Ozzie Guillen is too stupid to know Koch had a terrible outing *unless* Koch actually loses the game. If Guillen is truly that stupid, jeremy we Sox Fans are ****ed regardless.

This is a terribly weak argument, and most likely a poorly constructed troll as well.

Jeremy isn't a troll. He is Chicolini.

iwannago
04-14-2004, 09:31 PM
Are you nuts?

minastirith67
04-14-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Geeterman1
:threadsucks:


amen.


A White Sox winner is a White Sox winner...plain and simple.

thepaulbowski
04-14-2004, 09:50 PM
Did JM start this thread? :D:

CWSGuy406
04-14-2004, 09:54 PM
If anything, this type of loss is really a blow to the Royals, now we'll see what Tony Pena is all about. Here's what I'm talking about: The Royals are down 6-0, Pena calls the dugout meeting and they cut it down to 6-5. Sox score two more, and the Royals yet again come back and take the lead - all momentum, everything, on their side. And then we come back with two runs of our own to win it, their confidence has to be all but shot.

That's great news! :)

soxtalker
04-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
If anything, this type of loss is really a blow to the Royals, now we'll see what Tony Pena is all about. Here's what I'm talking about: The Royals are down 6-0, Pena calls the dugout meeting and they cut it down to 6-5. Sox score two more, and the Royals yet again come back and take the lead - all momentum, everything, on their side. And then we come back with two runs of our own to win it, their confidence has to be all but shot.

That's great news! :)

I hope that's the way it works, but I bet that Pena is able to reframe the situation in a positive light to his team. As much as I hate to say it, he is a terrific manager.

Nick@Nite
04-14-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
The Royals are down 6-0, Pena calls the dugout meeting and they cut it down to 6-5.

When they huddled, I'm surprised that they didn't start moshing.

soxwon
04-14-2004, 10:10 PM
NO

pearso66
04-14-2004, 10:17 PM
I think of it this way. No way would a loss have been more beneficial, but either way Koch will get another shot. You know this, and I know this. The loss in the 1st game was not his fault, it was Marte's, but he'll get another shot. Koch will too. If this happens again, then he'll be taken out of the roll, especially if it happens soon.

mike squires
04-14-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
I think of it this way. No way would a loss have been more beneficial, but either way Koch will get another shot. You know this, and I know this. The loss in the 1st game was not his fault, it was Marte's, but he'll get another shot. Koch will too. If this happens again, then he'll be taken out of the roll, especially if it happens soon.

and let's not forget Pollite who walked the fist two batters...

Lip Man 1
04-14-2004, 10:40 PM
Hal (Torn Labrum) says: "Jeremy isn't a troll. He is Chicolini."

ahhh the memories.....

Groucho: "Ladies and gentleman of the jury. Chicolini talks like an idiot, looks like an idiot and sounds like an idiot. But don't let that fool you....he really is an idiot!"

Lip

mantis1212
04-14-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Did JM start this thread? :D:

We still would have had a chance at winning the series, that's what's important

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
We still would have had a chance at winning the series, that's what's important

Maybe Ozzie will start Cotts tomorrow...

CubKilla
04-15-2004, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by kittle545feet
i think ozzie has got good feel for the team and knows that koch just doesn't have it right now.

Koch hasn't had it since he put of a White Sox uniform. I love how every other GM in baseball wouldn't touch Botch with a 10 foot pole yet the White Sox still employ that same GM that, not only, acquired Botch for Foulke but also Todd Ritchie.

TDog
04-15-2004, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I hope that's the way it works, but I bet that Pena is able to reframe the situation in a positive light to his team. As much as I hate to say it, he is a terrific manager.

Maybe the fact that the Sox, who were rolling after when they faced a ninth inning deficit a year ago, should have impressed more people by the way they immediately came back after blowing the lead. Maybe Oz isn't such a bad manager, either.

As for Koch, there may be managers who would point out to reporters after the game that he kept the Sox in the game. But they don't manage the Sox. This year.

pudge
04-15-2004, 12:52 AM
Instead of bashing jeremy, let's talk about what is going to be the result of this... I think he actually has a point - a loss may have been more devastating and hence prompted more action. I simply want Koch out of the closer role, and I have before the season even started, I wish they'd commit to someone else, maybe Politte.