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View Full Version : Is money really the issue?


jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 05:44 PM
In the gameday thread Lip said:

That's right Koch makes a lot of money but knowing what he did last season explain to me the logic of letting Gordon and Sullivan go? Did Sox management simply think he was going to be fine this year? I think it was more like, 'well we hope (there's the Sox favorite word again...) he'll be fine but either way we 'can't afford,' (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...) to keep these other guys.' Like we've discussed when you're an organization that's consistently trying to cut corners on talent you have no room for errors, injuries or an off season by a player (or players).

That's why teams that spend money have better chances to get to the post season....they don't have to reply so much on 'hope' or 'luck.'

What a half assed organization.

If you ask me the problem here isn't failing to resign guys to cover for Koch's ineptitude, it was acquiring Koch for Foulke and paying him 6 million in the first place. It would've been nice if we had more money to spend on the pen but wasting 6 million on a guy hardly capable of pitching mop up duty is going to hurt any organization regardless of the payroll

This organization needs to start making smart decisions first and foremost and then worry about money. Koch's numbers before he came over didn't foreshadow his drop in velocity but they did demonstrate he wasn't as good as his ERA and save total indicated (way too many walks and extra base hits allowed) and that therefore he wasn't worth immediately locking up for two years at a large sum. Foulke had an unbelievable year and got 6 million. If we didn't have Koch tied up we could've signed Urbina, Hawkins, Guardado, Benitez, Looper or a number of other better relievers for half what we're paying Koch.

We'll need an awfully large payroll to win in light of bad moves like the Koch deal.

mweflen
04-14-2004, 05:50 PM
I think the real lesson to take from the Koch debacle is the exaggerated importance of the "save" statistic.

If I could snap my fingers and do away with the whole "closer" role, I'd do that, too.

You should go with the guy who's getting it done in the ninth, with a bit of an eye towards matchups, but not a BIG eye.

Right now, the guy who seems to be getting it done for the Sox is Cliff Politte. Him, or Mike Jackson.

So now I don't know whether to laugh or cry... :whiner:

kittle545feet
04-14-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by mweflen
I think the real lesson to take from the Koch debacle is the exaggerated importance of the "save" statistic.

If I could snap my fingers and do away with the whole "closer" role, I'd do that, too.

You should go with the guy who's getting it done in the ninth, with a bit of an eye towards matchups, but not a BIG eye.

Right now, the guy who seems to be getting it done for the Sox is Cliff Politte. Him, or Mike Jackson.

So now I don't know whether to laugh or cry... :whiner: i have been saying this for a number of years that the closer's role is nothing but a bunch of crap. you go with the guy who can get you a win. unfortunately, we are in the minority on this issue. btw, toronto and oakland couldn't wait to get rid of koch. maybe now we know why? while his saves were high with those teams, there are some numbers that better indicate his true value such as walks and extra basehits. plus i heard he is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse. anyways, we need help and kenny better start looking.

jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 06:29 PM
I'm glad to see other people think this way. With my experiences on this board and elsewhere, people still seem obsessed with the closer mentality and closer experience. Case and point is how engraged people seemed when Boston went with a comittee to start last season and how much pleasure they seemed to take in it failing (which was a result of personel not the idea).

dickallen15
04-14-2004, 06:37 PM
I actually agree with Lip on this one. The White Sox putting all the eggs in the "Billy Koch will bounce back" basket was and is absolutely ridiculous. This needs to be addressed right now, not in June or July.

DSpivack
04-14-2004, 06:40 PM
Even if you don't need a dominant closer, you still need good relievers. With the exception of Damaso, the White Sox do not have this.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I actually agree with Lip on this one. The White Sox putting all the eggs in the "Billy Koch will bounce back" basket was and is absolutely ridiculous. This needs to be addressed right now, not in June or July.

Yep, and of course that comes back to willingness to spend money... So in one sense, money truly is the issue.

mweflen
04-14-2004, 06:50 PM
Personally, I long for the days when the "closer" was really a long reliever who'd get the two or three-inning "save" in relief of the starter.

There are too many specialists nowadays, and it bogs the game down when you pull a guy mid-inning.

(which is not to say i disagreed with pulling Koch and going with Adkins after Sweeney's dinger... :D: )

jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yep, and of course that comes back to willingness to spend money... So in one sense, money truly is the issue.

I think that misses the point. We have somewhere around 8 or 9 million invested in pen. That's a good chunk of chance compared to most all clubs. The problem isn't how much we spent its how. Are you telling me that if I told you you could've spent 8 million on the pen this offseason (what we signed Politte, Takatsu, and Koch for) you couldn't build a good pen?

Kuzman
04-14-2004, 07:45 PM
ya know what, i think you will have to give koch a chance this year... he was solid against the yankees, and he is strugging against the royals... ok the royals have had the most runs in the 9th inning yet this year, they came back against the sox big time opening day and they did the same to cleveland earlier this year... so the thing is the royals are CLUTCH now lets see how billy reacts to the other 29 teams out there before we completely write him off.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think that misses the point. We have somewhere around 8 or 9 million invested in pen. That's a good chunk of chance compared to most all clubs. The problem isn't how much we spent its how. Are you telling me that if I told you you could've spent 8 million on the pen this offseason (what we signed Politte, Takatsu, and Koch for) you couldn't build a good pen?

We're talking about apples and oranges. You are talking about money already committed to the pen and I am talking about money that needs to be spent to fix the holes in the pen.

Yes, you should be able to put together a solid pen for that much money, but that tells us how cheap it is to add pen help. The Sox need to prove they aren't too cheap to do so...