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Saracen
04-13-2004, 10:36 PM
Love the accountability Guillen's bringing to the team this year. Quotes from Rick Morrissey's article in the Trib:

"They lost last year because their play was poor, not because of Jerry Manuel," Guillen said. "They had great talent. They didn't need a manager last year with the talent they had on the field. That's an excuse. They have to do better than that."I told them the first day in the meetings: 'The talent Kenny Williams put on the field for you guys? You should have won that thing. You want to win? Play better and don't make the manager make any moves.' I respect Jerry Manuel as a man. That's excuses."

"If we lose, what excuse are they going to make now?" he said. "[Jon] Garland can't pitch because Jerry won't let him pitch past the fourth inning? Well, now we're going to see. Now I have Garland [going longer]. Now he has no more excuses.

"Oh, Jose [Valentin] was hitting second or seventh, playing center field or left field or shortstop. Well, now he's the shortstop and we'll see what he can do.

"Frank [Thomas] was hitting third, this guy wants to hit fourth. OK, here's where everybody's going to hit. Now, what are you guys going to do?"

lowesox
04-13-2004, 11:22 PM
Agreed. I'm still not convinced he's going to be the most calculated manager in the majors, but he sure does have the right attitude - which of the two qualities, is the one I prefer most.

RedPinStripes
04-13-2004, 11:27 PM
Some of the best manager make very few moves and dont tinker . Notice how we dont use 5 pitchers every game and different lineups every day? I like Ozzie. :gulp:

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 12:00 AM
Can't argue with that. Last year us fans and me in particular got very tired of the constand tinkering and lack of confidence in his players. Guys like Garland and Kip Wells suffered under his tutelage and Nardi didn't help things. Ozzie is putting it on the players shoulders, but at the same time, giving them the tools to succeed.

Manuel was all about accountability until it came time to actually follow through. So far, Ozzie hasn't had that problem...

RedPinStripes
04-14-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Can't argue with that. Last year us fans and me in particular got very tired of the constand tinkering and lack of confidence in his players. Guys like Garland and Kip Wells suffered under his tutelage and Nardi didn't help things. Ozzie is putting it on the players shoulders, but at the same time, giving them the tools to succeed.

Manuel was all about accountability until it came time to actually follow through. So far, Ozzie hasn't had that problem...

I still wonder if he's just letting these guys go longer or if he's afraid to tinker after opening day? :) I like to see a bullpen guy in there actually have a mid relief roll and not use 2 specialty guys, a set up guy then a closer. Just asking for trouble that way imo. Not everybody has their best stuff every day. Whoever's hot, stick with it. It's working so far.

WhiteSox = Life
04-14-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
I still wonder if he's just letting these guys go longer or if he's afraid to tinker after opening day? :) I like to see a bullpen guy in there actually have a mid relief roll and not use 2 specialty guys, a set up guy then a closer. Just asking for trouble that way imo. Not everybody has their best stuff every day. Whoever's hot, stick with it. It's working so far.

Well, Ozzie did some let's call it minor adjusting with the lineup today, and it worked rather well offensively (though not too greatly on the other side of the ball).

His bullpen handling skills definitely need some work, but he is a fast learner, and he'll get better as the season goes on.

Regarding Loaiza (although he wasn't mentioned by name, I'd like to get this point across and see what others think of it since I may be way off), his cutter isn't working right now, but I think he'll be fine. It's tough to try to develop a new pitch in the season when it's still being perfected and having to be used in gametime situations where it may get crushed or not work, but it definitely couldn't hurt, and the earlier in the year, the better. Loaiza's cutter can still get batters out and it's not a "surprise" pitch anymore, especially considering he still got hitters out with the pitch in August and September last year who had seen him more than once ot twice? He'll be all right.

It's Buehrle about whom I'm most worried.

:smile:

RedPinStripes
04-14-2004, 12:39 AM
i just think players are catching onto him. They see that cutter rarly comes in for a strike and they make him throw it over the plate. Thank the twins for starting that.

WhiteSox = Life
04-14-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
i just think players are catching onto him. They see that cutter rarly comes in for a strike and they make him throw it over the plate. Thank the twins for starting that.

I can't say for true, but that sounds plausible. If that is the case, it's important he gets ahead in the count because without the cutter, he's gonna get pounded.

Perhaps hitters all around are beginning to handle the cutter now, not just with Loaiza, but Rivera being a bit more mortal now it seems. I can't at this moment think of other pitchers who throw similarly, but if that's the case, I hope Loaiza can learn to use it in another fashion, in different situations, or work on another pitch. I don't think there's anything wrong with having more pitches at your disposal.

However, I don't want to jump the gun and say Loaiza is going to a bust after facing a scrappy Kansas City team two times a row and pitching subpar compared to last season.

I think he'll be fine once the confidence level goes back up and he can start getting the cutter closer to the plate because right now, it's either staying over the plate or not even being close. If he can establish that it certainly can be a called strike consistently, which is what you alluded to, things will be all right.

Go, Loaiza!

:gulp:

NonetheLoaiza
04-14-2004, 12:53 AM
i never thought for a moment that loaiza was going to have another season even close to what he had last year. He will be fine though. I would compare his possible numbers to Andy Pettitte. Pettitte has never had that great of an ERA, but with a strong supporting offense he was able to win a whole bunch of games every year. I am not saying Esteban is better than Pettitte, but Esteban could win about 16-17 if our offense continues to support him. I am not worried at all that hitters are catching up to him, he just has to be smart.

As far as Ozzie is concerned, anyone can see that he has already had a huge impact on the team. They seem more laid back, yet more focused on getting the job done. I am 10 times more at ease with Ozzie at the helm than Jerry (even if he does have zero experience).

Bob Brenly did it in his first year, right? Why not Ozzie?

scottyl
04-14-2004, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Can't argue with that. Last year us fans and me in particular got very tired of the constand tinkering and lack of confidence in his players. Guys like Garland and Kip Wells suffered under his tutelage and Nardi didn't help things. Ozzie is putting it on the players shoulders, but at the same time, giving them the tools to succeed.

Manuel was all about accountability until it came time to actually follow through. So far, Ozzie hasn't had that problem...

How many games do you guys think managerial decisions / bad team attitude (whatever you want to call it) cost us last year?

WhiteSox = Life
04-14-2004, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by NonetheLoaiza
i never thought for a moment that loaiza was going to have another season even close to what he had last year. He will be fine though. I would compare his possible numbers to Andy Pettitte. Pettitte has never had that great of an ERA, but with a strong supporting offense he was able to win a whole bunch of games every year. I am not saying Esteban is better than Pettitte, but Esteban could win about 16-17 if our offense continues to support him. I am not worried at all that hitters are catching up to him, he just has to be smart.

As far as Ozzie is concerned, anyone can see that he has already had a huge impact on the team. They seem more laid back, yet more focused on getting the job done. I am 10 times more at ease with Ozzie at the helm than Jerry (even if he does have zero experience).

Bob Brenly did it in his first year, right? Why not Ozzie?

Most pitchers in baseball would have problems replicating Loaiza's all-around performance last year. He's not going to be as utterly fantastic as we saw him last season, but I think he's still going to perform solidly and keep the Sox in ballgames.

Also, don't forget Trader Jack, and he didn't even need a whole season!

jeremyb1
04-14-2004, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Agreed. I'm still not convinced he's going to be the most calculated manager in the majors, but he sure does have the right attitude - which of the two qualities, is the one I prefer most.

Ozzie's attitude and potential to motivate the team is the reason I've never been particularly negative about his hiring even though I never expected him to be a smart manager and he's already made some moves I've disagreed with. Frankly, I think his views of the game are way too traditional and outdated but I wouldn't expect our organization to hire anyone that's too progressive so attitude is really all there is to improve on and I like what he's done there. The team definitely needed to be more laid back and enthusiastic and that seems to have happened so far.

SSN721
04-14-2004, 06:41 AM
Just after seeing the game live yesterday and to see them play on TV so far I am just ecstatic the way this teams attitude. They are starting to just plain have fun out there, they are starting to look like the way we would look if we were in there positions. Happy to be there and playing hard, I think his attitude is contagious. He shows a love for the game and I think it translates to the team. He has exceeded all of my expectations to this point as far as his managing skills are concerned.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
i just think players are catching onto him. They see that cutter rarly comes in for a strike and they make him throw it over the plate. Thank the twins for starting that.

No, last year it was harder and had a sharper break. He used to routinely handcuff LH batters. The only time it looked good yesterday was in the first. I thought he was going to roll through the lineup, but then he started getting it up and he was missing his location badly. He should be working center of the plate to start with it cutting hard in to a LH batter. Yesterday he was working RH inner edge breaking over the middle of the plate and it wasn't crisp, so it looked like a frisbee which showed when guys like Berroa and Sweeney hammered it.

I think he'll be okay. I assume Cooper can work him through his difficulties. At least the offense is on fire to start the season and that is something new...

Saracen
04-14-2004, 07:12 AM
Loaiza does worry me. I watched him for a couple years here in Texas where he was absolutely brutal. He always had the stuff, he just threw it right over the plate most of the time - if the cutter doesn't have the sharp movement, he'll get roughed up.

Let's hope Cooper can get it worked out & that last year was not a total fluke.