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View Full Version : Aggresion on the paths.........


Jurr
04-13-2004, 06:21 PM
Today, we saw more aggressive baserunning lead to some more runs. I am talking primarily about Olivo's hustle around the bases on the Jose Valentin passed ball. Santiago saw Jose humping it down the first base line, and felt a little rushed. He flung the ball away from Sweeney, allowing Olivo to score. Hustle can cause all kinds of problems with fielding. Ballplayers said that Ichiro would really mess with your rhythm even on a grounder because he was always running out his grounders full speed. A little aggression makes a fielder unsettled at times, leading to some errors. That can add a good 30-40 runs a year, which add up in different clutch times. I'm loving it!

DrummerGeorgefan
04-13-2004, 06:28 PM
Today was the first time in a long time i have seen more than one batter reach base on drop third strike.....although one was a royal, i love the hustle

Jurr
04-13-2004, 06:31 PM
Yeah...it's great! I mean, so far this year, they've really been legging out their ground balls, they've been doing some great baserunning (remember C.Lee's takeout during the DP vs. the Yankees?), and just making things happen.

batmanZoSo
04-13-2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Today, we saw more aggressive baserunning lead to some more runs. I am talking primarily about Olivo's hustle around the bases on the Jose Valentin passed ball. Santiago saw Jose humping it down the first base line, and felt a little rushed. He flung the ball away from Sweeney, allowing Olivo to score. Hustle can cause all kinds of problems with fielding. Ballplayers said that Ichiro would really mess with your rhythm even on a grounder because he was always running out his grounders full speed. A little aggression makes a fielder unsettled at times, leading to some errors. That can add a good 30-40 runs a year, which add up in different clutch times. I'm loving it!

Over time it might help us. But what's Jose doing getting thrown out at second on a shot off the wall? And didn't Olivo get thrown out trying to stretch a triple? This stuff happens every game.

soxfan26
04-13-2004, 06:45 PM
Looks to me like they are taking risks and running the bases well.
That will no doubt lead to more guys than we are used to getting thrown out trying to stretch one out and others getting caught stealing. But it's a much more fun to watch than CORPSE BALL!!

CWSGuy406
04-13-2004, 06:47 PM
Yeah I liked the aggression - Olivo heads up on the base path, scoring from second was great! However, one thing I disagree with was when Olivo tried to stretch a nice RBI double into a triple. Aggression is good, but don't play yourself out of runs...

HomeFish
04-13-2004, 06:48 PM
Agressive baserunning won the Marlins a World Series in 2003. A controversial view, perhaps, but one I'll defend.

So far, it isn't doing much bad for us.

soxnut
04-13-2004, 07:11 PM
I love the aggressive baserunning. Of course guys are going to get thrown out--so what. That's part of the game, and it does put pressure on the defense to make a good throw, and to second- guess on where to throw the ball.

You can't play station to station baseball and wait for the three-run home run. That cannot be counted on, that's like trying to win the lottery in my opinion. Agressive style is the only way to keep a team from getting into a scoring drought.

Sure sometimes you're going to win with the long ball, and that's great. But as we have seen in the past, that can become the team's downfall.(which is why I think this team did not succeed the past couple of years) So, you have to have an alternate way to score runs.

soltrain21
04-13-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
Agressive baserunning won the Marlins a World Series in 2003. A controversial view, perhaps, but one I'll defend.

So far, it isn't doing much bad for us.


I thought you threw in the towel.

MRKARNO
04-13-2004, 07:18 PM
I think the word is agressiveness, not aggression, unless you really think that Carlos was mad at Miguel Cairo that time.

HomeFish
04-13-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by soltrain21
I thought you threw in the towel.

I may believe that the White Sox have no chance to win a championship this year, but I am far too addicted to baseball to actually go away.

A. Cavatica
04-13-2004, 07:52 PM
Aggressive baserunning has cost the Sox more pennant-race and playoff games than I care to remember...

A little aggressiveness is a good thing. Too much aggressiveness is a bad thing. The Sox ran into some outs today (though Valentin should've been called safe) and they're lucky those didn't come back to haunt.

It's too soon to tell if Ozzie is deliberately establishing some unpredictability (which is much needed after JM) or if he's going to be as reckless about baserunning as he was when he played. Watch how the Sox play against the good defensive teams...they need to play more conservatively than they did today.

mrwag
04-13-2004, 09:23 PM
Those guys were thrown out ONLY because perfect relays were made. You need to force that on the opposing team. I loved it, and I hope to see it all year long. Frankly, the Sox ran the Royals out of the park today.

Jurr
04-13-2004, 09:29 PM
By the way, I wanted to offer my deepest apologies for not only using the word aggression instead of aggressiveness, but I also spelled it aggresion. New word: Aggresion - A single application of a name brand hair coloring.
I'm becoming unglued....staying up late studying for Pharmacology makes you dumber than smarter.

soxnut
04-13-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by mrwag
Those guys were thrown out ONLY because perfect relays were made. You need to force that on the opposing team. I loved it, and I hope to see it all year long. Frankly, the Sox ran the Royals out of the park today.

Couldn't agree with you more. :D:

SEALgep
04-13-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Over time it might help us. But what's Jose doing getting thrown out at second on a shot off the wall? And didn't Olivo get thrown out trying to stretch a triple? This stuff happens every game. Those were solid attempts and not just wasted aggression. First off, Jose certainly looked safe, and the only reason it was even close was because it was a perfect throw. Secondly, Olivo was trying to stretch his double to triple because there was one out and he could have been sacked in if he had made it. Again, that was just him be stupid or something, he was barely out.

lowesox
04-13-2004, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by HomeFish
Agressive baserunning won the Marlins a World Series in 2003. A controversial view, perhaps, but one I'll defend.

So far, it isn't doing much bad for us.

If it wins us games: great. If not: great. No matter what, I just find it much more exciting to watch than corpse ball. And, as long as it's aggressiveness and not stupidity I don't even mind our guys getting thrown out when they shouldn't be .

Stoky44
04-14-2004, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
However, one thing I disagree with was when Olivo tried to stretch a nice RBI double into a triple.

I wasn't too upset with this for two reason's, he was very close to being safe and it was the second out. You never want to make the 1st or 3rd out at third base.

Kilroy
04-14-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
I wasn't too upset with this for two reason's, he was very close to being safe and it was the second out. You never want to make the 1st or 3rd out at third base.

I also wasn't upset, but Olivo wasn't barely out on that play. North made it sound like he was out by 5-6 steps. But he's an ass, and I knew he would turn out to be lying. It wasn't a close play like the one on Valentin (who was safe btw), but when the throw got him I didn't think "what the hell was he thinking?"...

A. Cavatica
04-14-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
You never want to make the 1st or 3rd out at third base.

I've heard this many times. Why is it OK to make the second out at third base? What's the statistical justification?

Cubbiesuck13
04-14-2004, 09:24 AM
It's too soon to tell if Ozzie is deliberately establishing some unpredictability (which is much needed after JM) or if he's going to be as reckless about baserunning as he was when he played.



I would assume that he is doing this deliberatley seeing how he said that is what he was going to do. I would not consider him to have been reckless in his playing days. Oz was a smart baserunner even after his knee problem, just not as fast. It is one of the things that made people think that he would one day be a manager. I for one predicted it on these boards while he was coaching third with the expos. I never thought that it would be with the sox tho. That is just icing on the cake.

Paulwny
04-14-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I've heard this many times. Why is it OK to make the second out at third base? What's the statistical justification?

I don't know about the stats but I understand the reasoning

1) 1st out- If you lead off with a double the next batter may get you to 3rd and then a sac fly will score you.
2) 3rd out- It makes very little difference if you're at 3rd or 2nd base, it usually takes a base hit to score you. If you don't try to stretch a double and remain at 2nd you'll usually score on a base hit because with 2 outs you're running when the ball is hit.

voodoochile
04-14-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I don't know about the stats but I understand the reasoning

1) 1st out- If you lead off with a double the next batter may get you to 3rd and then a sac fly will score you.
2) 3rd out- It makes very little difference if you're at 3rd or 2nd base, it usually takes a base hit to score you. If you don't try to stretch a double and remain at 2nd you'll usually score on a base hit because with 2 outs you're running when the ball is hit.

Exactly, so making the 2nd out at 3rd base is because you were trying to get there with 1 out which means a sacrifice would score a run if the runner had been safe.

Irishsox1
04-14-2004, 11:44 AM
A great Basketball coach once said "Push, but be patient" The same goes the Sox runners, think aggresive but don't be aggresive just for being aggresive. It's a fine line that good ballplayers and teams seem to have figured out.

Stoky44
04-14-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I also wasn't upset, but Olivo wasn't barely out on that play. North made it sound like he was out by 5-6 steps. But he's an ass, and I knew he would turn out to be lying. It wasn't a close play like the one on Valentin (who was safe btw), but when the throw got him I didn't think "what the hell was he thinking?"...

From watching the game the play was pretty bang bang. North is an idiot if he thinks it was 5-6 steps. If you watch the replay, Olivio almost beats the tag.

A. Cavatica
04-14-2004, 01:28 PM
Well, aggressive baserunning cost us a run in the first inning of today's game. Uribe was caught stealing, Valentin singled, Magglio hit into a DP. If Uribe had stayed put then he would've scored.

As a fan I like watching an aggressive team. But I'm not sure Ozzie has very good judgment in this regard. For instance, I think having Konerko steal under any circumstances is just plain reckless.

Stoky44
04-14-2004, 01:40 PM
Frank got caught stealing in the second inning too.

A. Cavatica
04-14-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Exactly, so making the 2nd out at 3rd base is because you were trying to get there with 1 out which means a sacrifice would score a run if the runner had been safe.

How much does the extra base increase the runner's chance of scoring? Clearly, quite a bit. It doesn't make that much difference if the next guy gets on base, but a runner on third still has a good chance of scoring if the next guy makes an out. And a wild pitch or passed ball may also allow him to score (although that's relatively uncommon).

On the other hand, if the runner's out, his chance of scoring drops to zero, and the chances of subsequent runners scoring also drop.

So it's impossible to know if trying to "stretch" to third base with one out is a good idea, unless we also know the probability of success. That certainly depends a lot on context (runner's speed, defensive skill, location of the hit, etc.) and I've never seen a statistic for it.

My point is: this is the kind of baseball gospel that so often turns out to be false when someone studies it. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that "stretching" for third base with one out is a bad idea.

(Jeez, Frank Thomas caught stealing as I write this. Yeccch. Dial it back, Ozzie, please.)

Dadawg_77
04-14-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
A great Basketball coach once said "Push, but be patient" The same goes the Sox runners, think aggresive but don't be aggresive just for being aggresive. It's a fine line that good ballplayers and teams seem to have figured out.


It was "Be Quick but don't Hurry" or that is the famous one form John Wooden.

Dadawg_77
04-14-2004, 02:01 PM
Running the bases is a game of probability. I wouldn't run if the player had a 30% chance of being thrown out. Anything greater decreases the amount of runs you will score.

Prime example is last years Marlins. Under Torberg they ran like a chicken with its head cut off. It was costing them runs and games. When Jack came in, they started to run smarter, thus increased the runs they scored.