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View Full Version : Valentin's Brutal Defense Yesterday


tlebar318
04-11-2004, 11:17 AM
I love the way Jose approaches the game. He has a lot of heart and hustles on every play. That said I am scared to death of what may happen down the line in a critical game with him at short. Those errors are tempting fate... Not to mention what is it now 9-10 strikeouts in 20 at bats so far this year? I know it is early but I would like to see what Uribe could do--thoughts?

Brian26
04-11-2004, 11:27 AM
My thoughts are this-

Jose has been the hidden albatross of this team for the past four years. I love this heart, too. I'll never forget him sliding across home plate and collapsing to win that game in August of 2000 on the Frank double at home, or the homer at Wrigley in 2001 followed by the Sammy kisses to the camera, or the walkoff Friday afternoon homer last June at the Cell to beat the Cubs. His leaderships skills and heart are an asset to the team.

But-

Maybe those assets could be just as valuable if he were the thirdbase coach.

Fact is, at this point, I rather have slap-hitting shortstop who can be consistent in the field and bat a modest .270 at the plate. The 28 homers aren't going to help the Sox win that many more games, but a guy in that position who can put the ball in play and move runners over would be a huge asset (as opposed to all the strikeouts and the feast-or-famine attitude at the plate).

johnny_mostil
04-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
My thoughts are this-

But-

Maybe those assets could be just as valuable if he were the thirdbase coach.

Fact is, at this point, I rather have slap-hitting shortstop who can be consistent in the field and bat a modest .270 at the plate. The 28 homers aren't going to help the Sox win that many more games, but a guy in that position who can put the ball in play and move runners over would be a huge asset <snip>.

That is just silly. Valentin has three significant weaknesses -- he makes a basketful of errors, he doesn't hit for average, and he doesn't hit lefthanders very well. He does everything else well. He walks. He hits for extreme power for a shortstop, especially against righthanded pitching. He has excellent range -- he's made three or four really good plays this season you're dismissing. He's a good baserunner. The White Sox thought the same way you are and we suffered through two years of Royce Clayton. The team has been MUCH better with Valentin at short than with anybody else the last four years. Case closed.

CubKilla
04-11-2004, 11:58 AM
This has been beaten to death. I'd link up the thread from 2001 (?) where someone here analyzed every Valentin error from the season past and the consensus was most of the errors DID NOT lead to runs or losses but I'm too lazy.

I'll take Valentin with his range and errors over a guy like, say, K-layton..... who has a great fielding percentage because his range is 2-3 steps to his left or right..... any day.

sas1974
04-11-2004, 12:02 PM
Jose is the epitome of "High risk. High reward." In addition to that, he adds energy, enthausiam and leadership that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Tragg
04-11-2004, 12:07 PM
Valentin's D doesn't bother me. He makes errors, but makes excellent plays as well. All in all, a bit above average.

Someone mentioned above they'd rather a shortstop with a modest .270- I wish Jose would hit a modest .270 and take some walks before swining for the fences- especially in the #2 spot. That obviously won't happen.

And .270 shortstops aren't easy to find.

OEO Magglio
04-11-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
This has been beaten to death. I'd link up the thread from 2001 (?) where someone here analyzed every Valentin error from the season past and the consensus was most of the errors DID NOT lead to runs or losses but I'm too lazy.

I'll take Valentin with his range and errors over a guy like, say, K-layton..... who has a great fielding percentage because his range is 2-3 steps to his left or right..... any day.
I agree 100 percent, Jose makes so many great plays, and has such good range, you can live with the occasional error that he'll make.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I agree 100 percent, Jose makes so many great plays, and has such good range, you can live with the occasional error that he'll make.

Personally I'm more concerned about Jose's bat than his glove. We're very weak at shortstop right now, not because of Jose's errors but his growing inability to hit lefties that has become more acute the past two years.

I'm not sure if acquiring Nomar last winter would have been a real solution because I don't believe Nomar would ever have agreed to re-sign with the Sox for 2005. However 2004 is going to be tough with Jose playing most every day.

CLR01
04-11-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
This has been beaten to death. I'd link up the thread from 2001 (?) where someone here analyzed every Valentin error from the season past and the consensus was most of the errors DID NOT lead to runs or losses but I'm too lazy.


It was done after the 2000 season. I can't find that article in the archives but this one was done the following year to compare Jose and Royce. Maybe George or Iwritecode (the author) have a copy of the original they can post.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=137

Brian26
04-11-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
This has been beaten to death. I'd link up the thread from 2001 (?) where someone here analyzed every Valentin error from the season past and the consensus was most of the errors DID NOT lead to runs or losses but I'm too lazy.

I'll take Valentin with his range and errors over a guy like, say, K-layton..... who has a great fielding percentage because his range is 2-3 steps to his left or right..... any day.

I'm not so much concerned about his defense as much as the rally-killing strikeouts.

I think the Sox position in 2001 when they picked up Clayton was that they wanted to strengthen the defense, and they were willing to sacrifice offense. I'm saying defense can be strengthened a little bit - but Jose has GOT to take a better approach at the plate. The feast-or-famine offense from him is going to kill us. His approach is too selfish right now. He's gonna have to put the ball in play and move some guys over, as we can't afford too many 1-5 days with 4 strikeouts from the #2 slot. Just my opinion.

I agree with you on the defense for the most part. Although, I still don't understand why Jose can't make a throw to first base when the problem has been recognized for the past 4 years.

TheRockinMT
04-11-2004, 01:01 PM
Jose Valentin made a couple errors yesterday, but they happen to everyone. In fact believe it or not I heard that Alex Rodriguez makes errors on ocassion. ESPN BBTN and Harold Reynolds did a segment last night on the "ghost tag at 2B" and showed what Jose did. Harold blamed Jose's error on Giambi coming in standing up which casued Jose to sail the ball. He said Jose did a good job getting the out at 2B and didn't dwell on the error. The guy plays with a lot of heart and we will see how the lefty hitting only turns out. He isn't doing any worse than the Big Hurt is at this point in the season. Some players just start out a bit slower and when they get going it's full steam ahead. I am happy with Jose V at SS.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Gang:

Well then here's something to consider for next season. Valentin is a free agent (I don't think the Sox will re-sign him but who knows...) and the Sox have what only 20 million or so committed to salaries, so the answer is obvious....

Edger Renteria is a free agent.

Problem solved.

Of course he's going to cost you but hey if the Sox want to win as bad as the owner claims then hitting the market with 40-50 million to spare on payroll should make this easy. LOL

Lip

Gumshoe
04-11-2004, 02:14 PM
Finally! Most, if not all of these posts have realized that Jose in many ways has been the true and consistent factor in this team. He is a winner. I'm glad everyone has come around. As for next year, we'll see what happens Lip.

I'm loving the FEELING I get when I watch this team. Much more relaxed. They know what they can do. If Garland does what I think he will, we will be very happy this summer.

I love the results, too. Let's take 3 straight from these Yanks!

Gumshoe

ode to veeck
04-11-2004, 03:58 PM
Fact is, at this point, I rather have slap-hitting shortstop who can be consistent in the field and bat a modest .270 at the plate. The 28 homers aren't going to help the Sox win that many more games, but a guy in that position who can put the ball in play and move runners over would be a huge asset (as opposed to all the strikeouts and the feast-or-famine attitude at the plate).

Sounds almost like Royce to me

I still like Manos, he botches a few , but also has decent range and a gun for an arm ...

batmanZoSo
04-11-2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
My thoughts are this-

Jose has been the hidden albatross of this team for the past four years. I love this heart, too. I'll never forget him sliding across home plate and collapsing to win that game in August of 2000 on the Frank double at home, or the homer at Wrigley in 2001 followed by the Sammy kisses to the camera, or the walkoff Friday afternoon homer last June at the Cell to beat the Cubs. His leaderships skills and heart are an asset to the team.



That leadership quality was invaluable during the Manuel era. Under Ozzie, I don't think that's needed as much and his play has declined sharply since 2000.

KingXerxes
04-11-2004, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
That leadership quality was invaluable during the Manuel era. Under Ozzie, I don't think that's needed as much and his play has declined sharply since 2000.

I'm not sure that I'm sold on Valentin's "leadership qualities". If we were coming off three straight divisional championships, I think that argument would have much more weight - but we're not. A lot of people like to talk about what a great influence he is and all, but I don't see it manifesting itself over the past three years or so with this team. This team looked flat-out dead at times, if he were such an inspiring gamer that wouldn't be the case.

While I think the $5 million they're paying him could have been better spent elsewhere, I'm not slamming Valentin - I just don't think his "influence" is all that a lot of people think it is.

Brian26
04-11-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck

Sounds almost like Royce to me

I still like Manos, he botches a few , but also has decent range and a gun for an arm ...

Royce didn't bat .270 for us :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Royce didn't bat .270 for us :D:

:hitless
"Just shuddup, Brian! If the old man had let me wear my PF Flyers to the plate, I could have beaten out a few more of those brown bat infield grounders for a few more hits!"

:jerry
"It was all just one big misunderstanding. I only wanted Royce to not wear sneakers in the dugout. My job was to keep everyone comfortable, including fetching Royce's slippers from the clubhouse during the bottom-half of every inning of our home games."

:hitless
"If you're going to start cutting guys for wearing slippers in the dugout there are going to be a lot of guys out of baseball."

A. Cavatica
04-11-2004, 09:34 PM
The solution to Valentin's crapulence against lefthanders is simple: platoon him with Uribe. Valentin still gets most of the at-bats, we get a stronger bat in the lineup against lefties, and we certainly don't lose anything defensively with Uribe at short.

I'm more worried about second base. Willie's had more downs than ups so far, but it's still way too early to judge him. He'd better at least be able to hit lefties.