PDA

View Full Version : Can someone fire Greg Walker?


Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 02:55 PM
Or who ever has install this ****ing culture of just going up there and hacking at what ever is coming. IT IS NOT THE WAY TO GENERATE RUNS. That is the Sox biggest offensive weakness, if this team had any plate discipline we would have won the past two years. The worst thing is you have bumbling idiots Hawk and DJ talk about like that is a proper approach at the plate. Can a hitters with a .293 OPB and .325 offer any good hitting advice?

TaylorStSox
04-08-2004, 02:58 PM
I do agree with the part about patience, but Vasquez was dealing today. When he changes speeds with that hook, it's almost unhittable. Unless, you have a freakish eye, like Frank.

batmanZoSo
04-08-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Can a hitters with a .293 OPB and .325 offer any good hitting advice?

That doesn't matter. Hitting is easier said than done. And the great hitters are usually just gifted and can't really tell you how to hit.

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I do agree with the part about patience, but Vasquez was dealing today. When he changes speeds with that hook, it's almost unhittable. Unless, you have a freakish eye, like Frank.

I am not saying we would have won today's game, but we won't win anything with free swingers. The Sox do horrible against anyone who can throw some junk for this very reason. All the Sox can do is hit lefty fastballers other then that it is a toss up.

soxnut
04-08-2004, 03:01 PM
You are totally overreacting. Did you even bother watching the first game of the year?? And you really should give some credit to Vasquez for crying out loud.

Also Walker has only been there since the middle of last season.
For the most part, you have to see what kind of hitters you have and can't necessarily implement your ideas in the middle of the season, and expect something to happen right away. What happened on Monday is what you're going to get from this team.

SEALgep
04-08-2004, 03:05 PM
Vasquez was throwing strikes. Would you rather have our guys hacking at 0-2 counts. Different approaches for different pitchers. You have to hack early with Vasquez on the mound. That has nothing to do with Walker.

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
You are totally overreacting. Did you even bother watching the first game of the year?? And you really should give some credit to Vasquez for crying out loud.

Also Walker has only been there since the middle of last season.
For the most part, you have to see what kind of hitters you have and can't necessarily implement your ideas in the middle of the season, and expect something to happen right away. What happened on Monday is what you're going to get from this team.

On Monday we faced a lefty whose main pitch is a fastball, which is a type of pitcher this team historically hits. The White Sox haven't change in the past three years so we can look back for clues on why they struggle in certain games. The Sox only walked once in Monday's game, while Anderson does have good control a team working the count should walk more then once. If you are basing your expectations for this team on what happen Monday, you will be disappointed. The Sox approach at the plate sucks, and it needs to change for this team to have a chance.

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Vasquez was throwing strikes. Would you rather have our guys hacking at 0-2 counts. Different approaches for different pitchers. You have to hack early with Vasquez on the mound. That has nothing to do with Walker.

Walker is the hitting coach, plus all I really advocate is that Sox general approach at the plate needs to change. If you want to keep apologizing for this teams mistakes, keep doing so, but that won't win the Sox games.

fledgedrallycap
04-08-2004, 03:08 PM
I would say certain players MUST start taking different approaches. Obviously, Willie is just not working the counts enough; although he didn't strike out today. It's early, but I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling with Jose in the two-hole. Maggs and Frank need someone to get on base, whether that is Carlos, Rowand or Crede; I don't care.

It's the third game of the year, the guys will straighten out; they just were over-matched today

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
I would say certain players MUST start taking different approaches. Obviously, Willie is just not working the counts enough; although he didn't strike out today. It's early, but I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling with Jose in the two-hole. Maggs and Frank need someone to get on base, whether that is Carlos, Rowand or Crede; I don't care.

It's the third game of the year, the guys will straighten out; they just were over-matched today

Look I am not just baising this on what happen the past three games. This is more based on what happen the past two years.

eriqjaffe
04-08-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Can a hitters with a .293 OPB and .325 offer any good hitting advice?

Performance, of course, does not indicate an ability to teach. Charlie Lau? Career .255 hitter. Career .318 OBP. Career .683 OPS. Legendary hitting coach.

I like the way the Sox are swinging the bat right now, top of the order aside...espcially Paulie.

Give Walker a full season before passing judgement.

--Eriq.

poorme
04-08-2004, 03:15 PM
you can't make chicken salad from chicken ****

harris
valentin
rowand
uribe
alomar
crede
olivo

charlie lau couldn't do anything with these guys.

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by eriqjaffe
Performance, of course, does not indicate an ability to teach. Charlie Lau? Career .255 hitter. Career .318 OBP. Career .683 OPS. Legendary hitting coach.

I like the way the Sox are swinging the bat right now, top of the order aside...espcially Paulie.

Give Walker a full season before passing judgement.

--Eriq.

The performance stuff was about DJ and Hawk talking about it like they were Gods. I would rather listen to a player like Ted Williams talk about it. Also Lau was a big believer in waiting for your pitch and patience at the plate.

Walker may or may not be the man here. I really could care less, if he stays. What needs to change is the Sox approach at the plate. As the hitting coach, he is the person most responsible for that.

fledgedrallycap
04-08-2004, 03:20 PM
Due to all these day games, I haven't been able to get a good idea in terms of pitch selection and the general approach of what each player is doing; plus the number of hard liners and opposite field outs (generally good signs). I will agree with you the Sox are the equivalent of a streaky scorer in basketball; when they're hot they pour it on. However, I have seens signs of improvement and not all of the blame goes on Walker. You have a line-up with prodominately average-speed; right handed power hitters. Table setter's make things happen, and we aren't getting any production right now. Remember the start we got off to with Durham and Lofton coming out of the gate, sure we burned out; but that's what can happen and that's what I would like to see.

poorme
04-08-2004, 03:22 PM
Lau was Walker's hitting coach, BTW.

Ordonez, Lee, and Konerko have never been and never will be selective at the plate.

Paulwny
04-08-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by poorme
you can't make chicken salad from chicken ****

harris
valentin
rowand
uribe
alomar
crede
olivo

charlie lau couldn't do anything with these guys.

LOL
I still think Crede will improve and possibly Olivo. I agree with your assesment of the rest.

Huisj
04-08-2004, 03:29 PM
i have an idea, lets overreact at the beginning of the season like always.

i hate seeing games like today when no one can hit the ball worth a crap, but saying we need to fire the hitting coach because of it already? whoa there. This guy helped turn the offense around some last year after a dreadful first half, and then after the offense lighting it up in spring training and hitting the ball decent in their first two games, one bad game against a very good pitcher gives you reason to fire him? yikes

BTW, ordonez and lee both didn't have a hit today, so we better release them both. they're washed up.

havelj
04-08-2004, 03:32 PM
...to the Yankees today. Quality pitching. A positive - Konerko looks like first half of 2002.

fledgedrallycap
04-08-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
BTW, ordonez and lee both didn't have a hit today, so we better release them both. they're washed up.

:)

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
i have an idea, lets overreact at the beginning of the season like always.

i hate seeing games like today when no one can hit the ball worth a crap, but saying we need to fire the hitting coach because of it already? whoa there. This guy helped turn the offense around some last year after a dreadful first half, and then after the offense lighting it up in spring training and hitting the ball decent in their first two games, one bad game against a very good pitcher gives you reason to fire him? yikes

BTW, ordonez and lee both didn't have a hit today, so we better release them both. they're washed up.

This isn't about three games this year. It about 500+ games. The team hasn't changed the approach over those years. If you are looking for a cause for the team disappointing offense each year, this is it. I honestly think Ozzie as the manager is only going to make it worse, with his overaggressive attitude, but that is a wait and see.

SEALgep
04-08-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Walker is the hitting coach, plus all I really advocate is that Sox general approach at the plate needs to change. If you want to keep apologizing for this teams mistakes, keep doing so, but that won't win the Sox games. Buddy, what makes you more knowledgable than Walker? Our offense had one bad day, and that was aginst a hell of a pitcher. Maybe you are the one who needs to change.

Huisj
04-08-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
This isn't about three games this year. It about 500+ games. The team hasn't changed the approach over those years. If you are looking for a cause for the team disappointing offense each year, this is it. I honestly think Ozzie as the manager is only going to make it worse, with his overaggressive attitude, but that is a wait and see.

did i accidently hibernate for a couple years or something? last I knew, Walker was named hitting coach less than a year ago, and unless I really am losing my mind, that means they haven't played 500+ games with him.

SoxxoS
04-08-2004, 03:58 PM
You don't want to fire Greg Walker, you want a roster overhaul, b/c this team is just not full of selective hitters.

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****, that is a great quote that is the complete truth.

thepaulbowski
04-08-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Can a hitters with a .293 OPB and .325 offer any good hitting advice?

That statement makes no sense and is without any merit. Many of the greatest teachers in any sport (basketball, baseball, golf, tennis, etc) have never played anything out side of college/amateur or we never successful pros. These "lets over-react after three games" threads are wearing on me.

Also, there's a reason Ole' Geroge got Vasquez...HE'S GOOD.

SEALgep
04-08-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski


Also, there's a reason Ole' Geroge got Vasquez...HE'S GOOD. Not only is he good, but he pitches strikes and gets hitters behind in the count if they don't jump on him. If you see a fastball from him, whether it's the first pitch or not, you swing at it.

jeremyb1
04-08-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
This isn't about three games this year. It about 500+ games. The team hasn't changed the approach over those years. If you are looking for a cause for the team disappointing offense each year, this is it. I honestly think Ozzie as the manager is only going to make it worse, with his overaggressive attitude, but that is a wait and see.

I completely agree and share all of your concerns. This is a team that with all its hitting prowess sorely lacks on base skills. Valentin, Frank, and Maggs are the only three players on the team you can ever really count on to take a walk and I find that to be really unfortunate. I think that you can certainly blame some of that on the major league club's approach. I agree Ozzie certainly isn't helping with his aggresive approach to every aspect of the game.

I do feel however, that you have to place a lot of emphasis with the front office here. The front office doesn't place enough emphasis on acquiring players with good plate discipline and learning discipline is very difficult. The front office hired a manager that believes in small ball and old school baseball traditions very strongly and clearly won't advocate working the count all that much. As far as Walker goes, I'm not sure how much of it is his fault. I've heard him talk before about guys struggling because they're trying to hard to be disciplined and I kinda buy that. We quite possibly have a bunch of players who aren't disciplined hitters and will only struggle if they try to become something they're not so that our best option is just to let them hit their way. Again here, you have to place blame with the front office for acquiring these sorts of players.

jeremyb1
04-08-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
That statement makes no sense and is without any merit. Many of the greatest teachers in any sport (basketball, baseball, golf, tennis, etc) have never played anything out side of college/amateur or we never successful pros. These "lets over-react after three games" threads are wearing on me.

Also, there's a reason Ole' Geroge got Vasquez...HE'S GOOD.

Plate discipline is a skill to a certain degree but it also invlovles self discipline and a willingness to take your walks which at least in Hawk's case I'm not sure he possesses. He compliments Frank on drawing walks from time to time but I'm not sure he ever wants guys to go up there and get a walk. He wants them to get hits, steal bases, etc. You'll never see him put any kind of emphasis on a guy's walks and OBP when he's examing his stats.

Randar68
04-08-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Plate discipline is a skill to a certain degree but it also invlovles self discipline and a willingness to take your walks which at least in Hawk's case I'm not sure he possesses. He compliments Frank on drawing walks from time to time but I'm not sure he ever wants guys to go up there and get a walk. He wants them to get hits, steal bases, etc. You'll never see him put any kind of emphasis on a guy's walks and OBP when he's examing his stats.

I've been saying for the past 2 years that the reason this team can't/won't win is that nobody outside of Frank and maggs can get on base consistently. The heart (3-4-5) of this order is as good as any team in baseball. Without lead-off and #2 hitters at the top of the order, the only thing "Small-Ball" refers to is solo-HR's.

One of the primary reasons for me wanting to see Rowand on the bench, is that he does not FILL either of those 2 roles out of a position that often must. 2B, SS (sometimes), and CF. These are generally your fastest players and guys who should be good OBP hitters in order to utilize that speed and ability at the top of the order.

SoxxoS
04-08-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I've been saying for the past 2 years that the reason this team can't/won't win is that nobody outside of Frank and maggs can get on base consistently. The heart (3-4-5) of this order is as good as any team in baseball. Without lead-off and #2 hitters at the top of the order, the only thing "Small-Ball" refers to is solo-HR's.

One of the primary reasons for me wanting to see Rowand on the bench, is that he does not FILL either of those 2 roles out of a position that often must. 2B, SS (sometimes), and CF. These are generally your fastest players and guys who should be good OBP hitters in order to utilize that speed and ability at the top of the order.

Jeremy Reed would give this lineup a WHOLE new outlook. A #2 hitter that takes a walk, hits for average and has good speed? Hmm.

(I am saying that on the basis that he IS healthy.)

batmanZoSo
04-08-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Jeremy Reed would give this lineup a WHOLE new outlook. A #2 hitter that takes a walk, hits for average and has good speed? Hmm.

(I am saying that on the basis that he IS healthy.)

The wait is gonna kill me. He can't get here fast enough (and not be a bust of course). This lineup is way too right handed and has been for years. He'll be a perfect number 2 hitter if he's for real.

TheRockinMT
04-08-2004, 05:37 PM
If we fire or hang every coach we have every time the Sox lose a game me thinks there won't be many people left to coach. We lost a game to a good picther. The Sox were good last year at making the excuse that they hadn't seen the pitcher before and that's why they couldn't hit. Well, patience or no patience it is difficult when the hurler is always around the plate and Vazquez was always around the plate with some real good stuff.

Dadawg_77
04-08-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Buddy, what makes you more knowledgable than Walker? Our offense had one bad day, and that was aginst a hell of a pitcher. Maybe you are the one who needs to change.

While I am not surprise, you completely miss the point. The fire Greg Walker thing was more get traffic. The first line of the post was directed at removing this culture the Sox have of free swinging. It is killing them. One only needs to look at the facts to see this. The biggest mistake many are making is thinking this is about one guy or three games. It is more about the White Sox system which won't produce quality hitters with philosophy it currently has.

The best this offense has ever done was under Von Joshua who in 2000 emphasized plate discipline. The Sox ran drills where hitters took pitches calling out whether or not they were strikes. Lee is at his most productive when he looks for his pitch at the plate, and struggles when he is not. The core of the take and rake philosophy of hitting is waiting for your pitch and when you get it, you hammer it. People complain that the Sox can't score runs other then home runs, well this is the root of that problem. Free swinging causes bad contact which produces weakly hit ball that most of the time become outs.

Daver
04-08-2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


The best this offense has ever done was under Von Joshua who in 2000 emphasized plate discipline. The Sox ran drills where hitters took pitches calling out whether or not they were strikes. Lee is at his most productive when he looks for his pitch at the plate, and struggles when he is not. The core of the take and rake philosophy of hitting is waiting for your pitch and when you get it, you hammer it. People complain that the Sox can't score runs other then home runs, well this is the root of that problem. Free swinging causes bad contact which produces weakly hit ball that most of the time become outs.


Well obviously what Von was doing must have been wrong if the Sox fired him.

Outside of Don Cooper,Man Soo Lee,and Art Kuysner this coaching staff is an inexperienced joke.

iwannago
04-08-2004, 07:19 PM
Do you actually think its the coach? I always thought players win games.

SoxxoS
04-08-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Do you actually think its the coach? I always thought players win games.

All you need to look at is Mike Scocia, Tony Pena, and the anti-thesis...Jerry Manuel...to realize how big coaching is.

soxwon
04-08-2004, 08:11 PM
hey we have had 23 hits in 3 games, thats really good to me!
the thing i cant stand is trying to stretch singles into doubles, i believe we have had 3 or 4 runners thrown out at 2nd.
i blame guillen on that one, he is trying to instill hustle and national league ball in our lineup.
just shut up oz, let the boys swing away and not try to get doubles so much.

SEALgep
04-08-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
While I am not surprise, you completely miss the point. The fire Greg Walker thing was more get traffic. The first line of the post was directed at removing this culture the Sox have of free swinging. It is killing them. One only needs to look at the facts to see this. The biggest mistake many are making is thinking this is about one guy or three games. It is more about the White Sox system which won't produce quality hitters with philosophy it currently has.

The best this offense has ever done was under Von Joshua who in 2000 emphasized plate discipline. The Sox ran drills where hitters took pitches calling out whether or not they were strikes. Lee is at his most productive when he looks for his pitch at the plate, and struggles when he is not. The core of the take and rake philosophy of hitting is waiting for your pitch and when you get it, you hammer it. People complain that the Sox can't score runs other then home runs, well this is the root of that problem. Free swinging causes bad contact which produces weakly hit ball that most of the time become outs. I believe you were missing my point, which doesn't surprise me either. The point was Vasquez was pitching first pitch strikes and second pitch strikes as well. For a pitcher like Vasquez, you need to be ready to hit him right away if he gives you a good pitch right off the bat (especially if he gives you a fastball), because if that guy gets you 0-2, the at bat is over. I understand that isn't always the approach needed, but today was the only day the offense was absent.

jeremyb1
04-09-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Well obviously what Von was doing must have been wrong if the Sox fired him.

Outside of Don Cooper,Man Soo Lee,and Art Kuysner this coaching staff is an inexperienced joke.

Von Joshua was a wonderful hitting coach. He didn't do anything wrong. The players were more interested in watching Meet The Parents than working on their hitting and struggled accordingly and since you can't trade the entire offense, Joshua took the hit. I'd kill to have him back.

SoxxoS
04-09-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Von Joshua was a wonderful hitting coach. He didn't do anything wrong. The players were more interested in watching Meet The Parents than working on their hitting and struggled accordingly and since you can't trade the entire offense, Joshua took the hit. I'd kill to have him back.

Good movie, though. :D:

As stated, it's very hard to teach plate discipline, so we have to deal with what we are dealt. The Jeremy Reed experiment needs to start as soon as he is healthy, b/c the advantage over Rowand at the plate is stunning. Rowand is an outstanding 4th outfielder.

If we can get Reed, a "grinder" (however he has talent), in this lineup, it changes the whole complexion of it. A 2 hitter that takes pitches/walks? That makes contact? Then we can move Manos down to #7, where he belongs. Ozzie may even consider having Reed hit leadoff, with Lee batting second. That is a way to get some people on base for Maggs, Hurt, and GIDPaul.