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CubKiller5
04-07-2004, 02:14 PM
I'd like to confine this thread to just one & only one suggestion per post for what the SOX can do to increase attendance.

Mine:
Lower the cost of parking for early arrivals from $16.00 to $8.00.

Basis:
I'm going to estimate that 60% of the fan base of the SOX come from long distance fans (fans that don't live in the area of the park).

I'm also going to estimate that 30% of the fan base is either a monthly CTA user or Metra user ( they have a monthly pass).

You can not get to the park directly from the Metra so for fans that have a monthly pass it will cost them about $4.00 per person to use the CTA to get to the park.

Most fans travel in single pairs, so it's about $8.00 per pair. More importantly this is the same cost they would likely pay to go to a Cub game. So to make the SOX more attractive to this long-distance fans keep the parking cost close to the public transportation cost to the park.

I'm not asking the SOX to give up 50% of their parking revenue.
For one thing if a lower parking cost brings an extra 1000 fans to the park that will make up for the parking revenue lost on about 4000 cars. But again, I'm just asking them to do this for early birds.
Fans arriving at least 45 minutes before the 1st pitch. You can increase it from there.

45 min before 1st pitch: $8.00
30 min before 1st pitch: $10.00
15 min before 1st pitch: $14.00
less than 5 min before 1st pitch: $16.00

Iwritecode
04-07-2004, 02:35 PM
When I come to the games I'm usually in a car with 4-5 people, so we split the $16 among us.

Parking prices are about the last thing on my list to worry about why fans aren't showing up. I seriously doubt lowered parking prices would draw that many more fans to the game.

Hell, most of the time I don't even know how much the prices are...

CubKiller5
04-07-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
When I come to the games I'm usually in a car with 4-5 people, so we split the $16 among us.

Parking prices are about the last thing on my list to worry about why fans aren't showing up. I seriously doubt lowered parking prices would draw that many more fans to the game.

Hell, most of the time I don't even know how much the prices are...

If you disagree then why didn't you include your #1 method to increase attendance?

Daver
04-07-2004, 02:46 PM
This is simple.Put together a team capable of winning it all.

If you build it they will come.

cheeses_h_rice
04-07-2004, 02:53 PM
I'm with Daver; win and they will come. And win more than just the division title, too, for once. Win and you will see the season ticket base go up, which is the absolute KEY to getting more butts in the seats.

But, regarding other things, I think the main thing is to lower ticket prices all around. Hell, if they want to keep premium prices for the better 100- and 300-level seats (i.e. between the bases), fine, but lower the prices everywhere else and make it not such a burden to attract the casual fan.

Clembasbal
04-07-2004, 02:53 PM
I do not agree with the parking thing, you are going to have to park there anyway...there is nowhere else to park other than on the Eastside of 94 near DeLaSalle high School and IIT.

For me, the thing that they need to do is get rid of Stateway Gardens and all that Ghetto crap that is adjacent to the stadium and within walking distance...what should go there?

Well perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's, a couple of bars, a lounge...Maybe even a small hotel (that is good and not near the ghetto) that will attract fans from like St. Charles, Oswego, Plano, Rockford, etc. I think that would be great, there are a lot of Sox fans out there that can't go to a game anymore because it is over 2 hours to the park and then 2 hours back -- they could go to two games and downtown on the Red line and all of that stuff.

Just things that will attract fans to the park before the game starts and have them stay there after the game ends. Currently, including me, I go the park about 6:30 for a 7:05 and leave right after the game. I mean people can take the Red line to bars, but nobody wants to travel and kill their buzz from the ballpark (And sorry Bridgeport and Canaryville bars are just not for me and most other people).

I think if you make the area better you make the fans come. IF the prices are what they are now, so what...it will be paid if there is something to do around the stadium.

doublem23
04-07-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Daver
This is simple.Put together a team capable of winning it all.

If you build it they will come.

I don't understand why this isn't always the #1 thing people put when they start a thread like this. Aside from the Bulls' run in the 90s, no one has won jack **** in this city. Say all the economic bull**** you want, but if there isn't a team in contention on the field, the fans won't come out. The Sox don't have the season ticket base and "baseball charm" of our Northerly neighbors, so we actually have to put effort into filling The Cell.

Winning solves all of lifes problems.

mack10zie
04-07-2004, 02:56 PM
I agree with daver.....

If they put a winner on the field, people will come to the games. It's very simple.

Clembasbal
04-07-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
I don't understand why this isn't always the #1 thing people put when they start a thread like this. Aside from the Bulls' run in the 90s, no one has won jack **** in this city. Say all the economic bull**** you want, but if there isn't a team in contention on the field, the fans won't come out. The Sox don't have the season ticket base and "baseball charm" of our Northerly neighbors, so we actually have to put effort into filling The Cell.

Winning solves all of lifes problems.


Don't forget about the Chicago Wolves...and by that I mean that they are winning and they get more fans than the Hawks (sometimes).

Chisox_cali
04-07-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Daver
This is simple.Put together a team capable of winning it all.

If you build it they will come.

My memory is not that good, but wasn't that the deal in 2000? That the Sox were in first place but had crappy attendence?

wdelaney72
04-07-2004, 03:24 PM
Yes, attendance in 2000 was still a little slow. The team had a great first half, which gave them enough cushion to win the diviision.

Division championships don't cut it. They need to win it all, and do it repeatedly. This team has tradition, but no tradition of winning.

Daver
04-07-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
My memory is not that good, but wasn't that the deal in 2000? That the Sox were in first place but had crappy attendence?

The 2000 team was not expected to win,and if you compare attendance from the first half of the season to the second half of the season you will notice a marked increase in the second half.

davidleeroth
04-07-2004, 03:29 PM
i say raise ticket prices $10 each and let everybody bring in a cooler full of whatever they want that will fit under the seat.

soxnut
04-07-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
I'd like to confine this thread to just one & only one suggestion per post for what the SOX can do to increase attendance.

Mine:
Lower the cost of parking for early arrivals from $16.00 to $8.00.

Basis:
I'm going to estimate that 60% of the fan base of the SOX come from long distance fans (fans that don't live in the area of the park).

I'm also going to estimate that 30% of the fan base is either a monthly CTA user or Metra user ( they have a monthly pass).

You can not get to the park directly from the Metra so for fans that have a monthly pass it will cost them about $4.00 per person to use the CTA to get to the park.

Most fans travel in single pairs, so it's about $8.00 per pair. More importantly this is the same cost they would likely pay to go to a Cub game. So to make the SOX more attractive to this long-distance fans keep the parking cost close to the public transportation cost to the park.

I'm not asking the SOX to give up 50% of their parking revenue.
For one thing if a lower parking cost brings an extra 1000 fans to the park that will make up for the parking revenue lost on about 4000 cars. But again, I'm just asking them to do this for early birds.
Fans arriving at least 45 minutes before the 1st pitch. You can increase it from there.

45 min before 1st pitch: $8.00
30 min before 1st pitch: $10.00
15 min before 1st pitch: $14.00
less than 5 min before 1st pitch: $16.00


They do have 1/2 price parking on the west side of the viaduct before 5:30

soxnut
04-07-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Clembasbal

For me, the thing that they need to do is get rid of Stateway Gardens and all that Ghetto crap that is adjacent to the stadium and within walking distance...what should go there?

It's called Wetworth Gardens.

Well perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's, a couple of bars, a lounge...Maybe even a small hotel (that is good and not near the ghetto) that will attract fans from like St. Charles, Oswego, Plano, Rockford, etc (snobs?)


I think it would be a great idea to do that instead of what is there, but that is public housing(a.k.a. governmental stuff) so I don't think you can just get rid of all that and then use it for commercial purposes


. sorry Bridgeport and Canaryville bars are just not for me and most other people). (again.....snobs)
.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-07-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Clembasbal

For me, the thing that they need to do is get rid of Stateway Gardens and all that Ghetto crap that is adjacent to the stadium and within walking distance...what should go there?


I know people get so angry when I interject *political stuff* into threads, but c'mon...seriously...."ghetto crap?"

IlliniSox
04-07-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by davidleeroth
i say raise ticket prices $10 each and let everybody bring in a cooler full of whatever they want that will fit under the seat.

A cooler section, nice idea. Stick a couple extra cops around there, I'd pay the extra ten.

Clarkdog
04-07-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by wdelaney72
Division championships don't cut it. They need to win it all, and do it repeatedly. This team has tradition, but no tradition of winning.

This is a truer statement that just simply putting a winner on the field. The Sox tradition is one of mediocrity. You cannot build on that. People won't come out to see it.

If the Sox had a tradition of winning - not one person on this site would have had pit in the bottom of their stomach in the bottom of the 9th on Monday witha 4-run lead and Koch in the game.

soxnut
04-07-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by UICJason
I know people get so angry when I interject *political stuff* into threads, but c'mon...seriously...."ghetto crap?"


You're right UICJason. That's a pretty ignorant statment. Then again from the area I think he's from, I'm not surprised....... :(:

Iwritecode
04-07-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
If you disagree then why didn't you include your #1 method to increase attendance?

Well, it looks like Daver beat me to it but it's worth repeating:

JUST WIN!

Iwritecode
04-07-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The 2000 team was not expected to win,and if you compare attendance from the first half of the season to the second half of the season you will notice a marked increase in the second half.

Exactly.

Hell, compare the attendance from 1999 to 2000 also...

Long story short, the team came out of nowhere and thus season ticket sales were quite low.

High # of season ticket sales = better attendance...

steff
04-07-2004, 05:20 PM
Where in the hell does it ONLY cost $8 to park as close to that **** hole on the north side as the $16 at Comiskey..?

SoxFan76
04-07-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Clembasbal


Well perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's, a couple of bars, a lounge...Maybe even a small hotel (that is good and not near the ghetto) that will attract fans from like St. Charles, Oswego, Plano, Rockford, etc.



Hey, somebody said Oswego! I didn't know anybody outside Plano/Yorkville/Oswego even knew we existed.

steff
04-07-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
Hey, somebody said Oswego! I didn't know anybody outside Plano/Yorkville/Oswego even knew we existed.



Right next to Plainfield.. I know where you are.. :D:

JohnBasedowYoda
04-07-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Daver
This is simple.Put together a team capable of winning it all.

If you build it they will come.

"if you rebuild it, they will come"

gosox41
04-07-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Clembasbal
I do not agree with the parking thing, you are going to have to park there anyway...there is nowhere else to park other than on the Eastside of 94 near DeLaSalle high School and IIT.

For me, the thing that they need to do is get rid of Stateway Gardens and all that Ghetto crap that is adjacent to the stadium and within walking distance...what should go there?

Well perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's, a couple of bars, a lounge...Maybe even a small hotel (that is good and not near the ghetto) that will attract fans from like St. Charles, Oswego, Plano, Rockford, etc. I think that would be great, there are a lot of Sox fans out there that can't go to a game anymore because it is over 2 hours to the park and then 2 hours back -- they could go to two games and downtown on the Red line and all of that stuff.

Just things that will attract fans to the park before the game starts and have them stay there after the game ends. Currently, including me, I go the park about 6:30 for a 7:05 and leave right after the game. I mean people can take the Red line to bars, but nobody wants to travel and kill their buzz from the ballpark (And sorry Bridgeport and Canaryville bars are just not for me and most other people).

I think if you make the area better you make the fans come. IF the prices are what they are now, so what...it will be paid if there is something to do around the stadium.

The guy from Bridgeport (I forget his name) sayas the neighborhood doesn't want all those bars and restaurants around. It would probably bring up the crime rate, but it would make going to Sox games more fun.

Bob

DSpivack
04-07-2004, 07:07 PM
Like Daver said, just build a winner.

You know, something like 17 consecutive winning seasons would be nice.

And by that I mean more than losing once in the World Series.

row18
04-07-2004, 08:00 PM
Just win, it that simple.

What's "ghetto crap", is Apple Bee's "corny crap" come on just attend the game. We have to walk under LSD to see the Bears, and the UC is isolated. Face it only Wrigley is in a "perfect" neighborhood, and in ten years the flubs will have to tear it down and relocate to the northwest side.

SoxFan76
04-07-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by steff
Right next to Plainfield.. I know where you are.. :D:

You're in Plainfield? Oswego/Plainfield football games have become a pretty good rivalry. I'm a senior, and I'm done with football, but it should still be fun to watch.

HomeFish
04-07-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by row18
in ten years the flubs will have to tear it down and relocate to the northwest side.

The Cubs in Homefishville? Dear goodness....

Frank the Tank
04-07-2004, 11:25 PM
Does anyone really buy the "Just Win" and they will come theory? Say the sox did win a World Series. Does anyone really believe the Sox could maintain a dynasty in today's economic baseball? "Just Win" is a short-term soloution to a larger attendance problem. A band-aid at best. In my opinion 75% of sox fans will generally come to the cell no matter how the team performs. I did say generally. Where the sox attendance suffers is with the casual fan. The people that don't care about baseball, they just want to be entertained. Right now, the cell has little to offer to this very important segment of the population. However, the renovations are a step in the right direction of improving the image of the ballpark. If the surrounding housing projects were demolished and the roaches were relocated to the Nortside of the city things would get even better. Finally, if the neighborhood (particularly south of the cell) gentrified to the extent that business was attracted (applebees, ESPN Zone, Hooters, etc.....) attendance would almost certainly improve to +30,000 for a sustained period.

If that doesn't work, JR could always install slot machines in the concourses.

guillen4life13
04-07-2004, 11:48 PM
Ok... a couple of you have said "Relocate/tear down the projects."

You have to remember that people LIVE there in those buildings. Yes there is crime and drug use and it's dirty to an extent, but people live there. That is HOME for them. You don't just tear down or relocate people just like that. I just have to stress that that is home for them. You wouldn't like just being told, "Ok, we're exploding your house and relocating you to a completely different area." Even if the place they live in is relatively shabby, it's still home.

Regardless of what I say, most of the buildings around the cell have already been demolished-- I think there are only a couple left. I only wonder where those people who lived there are gonna go and how their lives will fare wherever they end up living.



Besides winning, I think Jerry could sell. That would drive up attendance because many alienated Sox fans or fans who have cancelled their Season Tix subscriptions (*cough* Hangar *cough*) because of JR (directly or indirectly) will have incentive to come back. Considering the amount of alienated Sox fans that resulted from the strike ('94) and the White Flag Trade ('98), and the recent unwillingness to go out and get good players or retain the players they had, I think a lot of fans will start to reappear at Sox games with higher frequency.

Brian26
04-08-2004, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Clembasbal
IWell perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's,

Could you pick two suckier restaurants on the planet? Geez.

How about a Hackney's south side. Maybe a Bar Louie. Maybe a Garrett Ripley's or Pepper Cannister. Something cool with a little character.

soxnut
04-08-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Could you pick two suckier restaurants on the planet? Geez.

How about a Hackney's south side. Maybe a Bar Louie. Maybe a Garrett Ripley's or Pepper Cannister. Something cool with a little character.

I think people in the western burbs don't realize there are places like that. Bar Louie is pretty cool.

doublem23
04-08-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by guillen4life13

You have to remember that people LIVE there in those buildings. Yes there is crime and drug use and it's dirty to an extent, but people live there. That is HOME for them. You don't just tear down or relocate people just like that. I just have to stress that that is home for them. You wouldn't like just being told, "Ok, we're exploding your house and relocating you to a completely different area." Even if the place they live in is relatively shabby, it's still home.


I'm pretty sure Stateway Gardens is empty now and is in the process of being destructed.

doublem23
04-08-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Could you pick two suckier restaurants on the planet? Geez.

How about a Hackney's south side. Maybe a Bar Louie. Maybe a Garrett Ripley's or Pepper Cannister. Something cool with a little character.

Give him a break, he's from Indiana. Applebee's and TGIFriday's are big deals. :D:

mweflen
04-08-2004, 01:13 AM
Number one opinion expressed on this forum:

"you get what you pay for"

Debate's over, guys! Everyone who thinks prices on X, Y, or Z should be lowered, YOU'RE OFFICIALLY WRONG.

Thank goodness that's over with.

npdempse
04-08-2004, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
I think people in the western burbs don't realize there are places like that. Bar Louie is pretty cool.

You've all bought into the corporate/chain restaurant hype. Bar Louies are overpriced, their booze sucks, their food's crappy.

Rebuild McCuddy's.

ewokpelts
04-08-2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Clembasbal
I do not agree with the parking thing, you are going to have to park there anyway...there is nowhere else to park other than on the Eastside of 94 near DeLaSalle high School and IIT.

For me, the thing that they need to do is get rid of Stateway Gardens and all that Ghetto crap that is adjacent to the stadium and within walking distance...what should go there?

Well perhaps an Applebee's, maybe a TGIFriday's, a couple of bars, a lounge...Maybe even a small hotel (that is good and not near the ghetto) that will attract fans from like St. Charles, Oswego, Plano, Rockford, etc. I think that would be great, there are a lot of Sox fans out there that can't go to a game anymore because it is over 2 hours to the park and then 2 hours back -- they could go to two games and downtown on the Red line and all of that stuff.

Just things that will attract fans to the park before the game starts and have them stay there after the game ends. Currently, including me, I go the park about 6:30 for a 7:05 and leave right after the game. I mean people can take the Red line to bars, but nobody wants to travel and kill their buzz from the ballpark (And sorry Bridgeport and Canaryville bars are just not for me and most other people).

I think if you make the area better you make the fans come. IF the prices are what they are now, so what...it will be paid if there is something to do around the stadium.

They're putting Mixed income housing there. And I ask you this: where do you put all those "ghetto people" you just displaced for yout fancy hotel and applebees? This isnt just about tearing up old buildings or abandoned lots, we're talking about people's homes. While I dont want to get in a massive debate about the failure of the CHA and public housing, these "ghetto people"(who you most likely identify as Brown Skinned) still need somewhere tolive. Would you like them to move to Oswego, or Rockford so you can have your pretty hotel and chain restaurants? We all get swept up in "rebuilding neighborhoods" but we forget that people, even ones we may deem as undesireable, live there.

Gene

ewokpelts
04-08-2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Frank the Tank
Does anyone really buy the "Just Win" and they will come theory? Say the sox did win a World Series. Does anyone really believe the Sox could maintain a dynasty in today's economic baseball? "Just Win" is a short-term soloution to a larger attendance problem. A band-aid at best. In my opinion 75% of sox fans will generally come to the cell no matter how the team performs. I did say generally. Where the sox attendance suffers is with the casual fan. The people that don't care about baseball, they just want to be entertained. Right now, the cell has little to offer to this very important segment of the population. However, the renovations are a step in the right direction of improving the image of the ballpark. If the surrounding housing projects were demolished and the roaches were relocated to the Nortside of the city things would get even better. Finally, if the neighborhood (particularly south of the cell) gentrified to the extent that business was attracted (applebees, ESPN Zone, Hooters, etc.....) attendance would almost certainly improve to +30,000 for a sustained period.

If that doesn't work, JR could always install slot machines in the concourses.

Roaches? I hope you are refering to the insects that will survive a nuclear blast(along with keith richards).

As for gentrification, that's a band-aid. Winning is the ultimate sales tool. Just look at the advance ticket sales for the cubs. It's never been this high. W e can shrug it off and say" the cubs always sell well", but they posted the HIGHEST EVER FIRST DAY OF SALES RECORD at 500,000 tickets sold. And that's not counting group and season sales. The angels in 2003 had thier first year of 3million plus due to thier ws win. AND Arte Moreno is trying to keep those numbers from crashing. He's trying to attact latino fans(who are the people often removed due to gentrification, along side "roaches") by not only building a winner, but having players that the fans can identify with(spanish speaking) If you win, you can do a lot more in terms of marketing and promotions. Look at the bulls....it's been a long time since they won anything yet they still pack it in...that's what winning can do to you...
Gene

ewokpelts
04-08-2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by steff
Where in the hell does it ONLY cost $8 to park as close to that **** hole on the north side as the $16 at Comiskey..?

I htink the 8 dollar figure is based off rail costs...but i agree with you...if you think you can get 8 dollar parking by the urinal.....pass those pills....mebbe i can imagine a sox ws win....
Gene

Jerko
04-08-2004, 10:06 AM
I read this thread and it seems everybody who hates The Urinal and Wrigleyville wants the area around The Cell to become..................Wrigleyville II. Hey, let's build restaurants and bars, and 2 seconds later, Oh, those Cub fans suck because all they care about are restaurants and bars. Are these "restaurants and bars" gonna be free? Nobody wants to spend money on a lower deck seat because it's too much for a "family of 4", but going to restaurants and bars hours before the game AND still going to the game isn't gonna cost anything? And guess what; you'd STILL have to pay to park somewhere. I'd rather leave the Freakin place the way it is now with a nicer staff in there than become something we all say we hate, "The Cubs, Version 2.0" I can see it now, circa 2050:

Future moron Sox fan #1: Hey, it's 2 o'clock, the game starts at 7, let's go get some Applebees so we can have a base for later.

Future moron Sox fan #2: Yeah, then we can drink 300 dollars worth of beer at Bar Louie

Future moron Sox fan #1: Yeah, but hopefully I don't puke in that upper deck since I couldn't afford a lower deck seat and they don't let me move down anymore and there's only one half-price monday this year

Current moron Cub fan: Boy, if these restaurants and bars were always here, I would have been here running on the field and attacking umps YEARS ago, Oh wait, I did.

Future moron Sox fan #2: Is Sammy playing tonight? Oh this isn't Wrigley? I couldn't tell the difference, what with all these restaurants and bars around here and everybody is hammered by 3:30.

Jerko (at age 86): I knew this would happen one day. Ever since I read that thread on WSI on April 8, 2004, I knew this would happen.

Southside girl, at age 59 or whatever: Yeah, but that bartender they just hired is Hot, he's almost as cute as my second husband Barry Zito, who I married in 2006 after staking out the A's clubhouse and stowing away on their team bus.

Hangar18: This sucks, the Sox got more articles on the internet today, what the hell? That makes me mad because the dumb broad in Applebees with a brand new Sox hat on didn't even know that Dusty Baker's youngest Son, Darren XII, is our right fielder now and she's pretending she's a fan. I asked her to name our 2039 opening day lineup and she didn't even know Sandy Alomar was our catcher.


Do you REALLY want all this? I'd rather be buried in this town and still be ourselves than to be "the next Cubs".

Brian26
04-08-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by npdempse
You've all bought into the corporate/chain restaurant hype. Bar Louies are overpriced, their booze sucks, their food's crappy.

Rebuild McCuddy's.

I enjoy Bar Louie's food. I think they have good sandwiches and great fried shrimp. To be fair, Bar Louie is expanding out to the burbs now (isn't there one in downtown Naperville?), so it's not quite the city type bar it used to be. It's a million times better than Applebee's or TGI Friday's though.

dpanattoni
04-08-2004, 12:40 PM
this is an impossible question to answer. Because there's no ONE way to increase attendance. So chances are, you're all right.

Yes, winning is important. And obviously it's the most important thing to a bunch of fans dedicated enough to ocupy a message board (long time reader, first time writer).

But don't underestimate good old fashioned marketing. I hate to admit it, but the Cubs do everything right in this department. But that's what a media conglomeration can do for you.

Finally, the neighborhood needs to make going to the game an experience. That casual fan doesn't really care much about the game, they want to make an event of going to the park. That's where your restaraunts and nightlife come into play.

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 12:56 PM
I tried to make my suggestion something plausible that is in the control of the SOX. Answers suggest as winning & gentrification of the surrounding neighborhood are not.

I beleive 2000 was a statement year that times have changed.
If that team was still playing in the old ball park I guarantee it would have drawn more fans.

There is a stigma associated with the new one that has been built by the media. It's right along side the low rent district now. The parking & the drive to the parking requires a patron to pass through it. Most people don't like to have to do that. It makes them uncomfortable.

Getting to the ball park is no different than in the past. I agree with you there. The SOX used to outdrawn the Cubs when the commute was the same. But things have changed for the Cubs. The CTA & the Metra have worked some sort of partnership with the club or the city or both to where on game days, busses & trains are very much in sync with one another.

I still believe that the continued hike in parking prices is driving the long distance fans away from this team. It's not a question of not being able to come up with $16 a game. It's perception. The majority of fringe fans I know hate JR more for breaking up the Bulls than the SOX. They say "screw him" when it comes to shelling out $16 for parking.

I guarantee you if it was priced at a bargain before game time I would be able to get many more people to go. That's probably about 50 more admissions per year from just my effort alone.

I may be assuming too much here though. It's possible JR & the SOX don't control the parking price. That might be a city thing as well.

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 01:10 PM
Isolate the ball park from the low rent district.

When you come off the Ryan to go to the park there are a few reserved entrances that allow you to go to the front gate area instead of the low rent district.

If they were to change the orientation so that all cars could enter through that section, the casual fan would not even notice the low rent district. I think this can be done in 2 facets:
1) build 2 story parking that malls use.
2) With the additional space, make every game a SOX festival.

Take a page out of Chicago Fest & provide an assortment of feed & drink outside of the ball park before game time. Provide some band entertainment as well.

The problem as I see it is that you have the park, all the food & drink is in the park at park prices, & then you have the parking lots.
That makes the whole atmosphere seem sterile & less hip than Wrigley.

I think they have enough space to where they can change all that.

Iwritecode
04-08-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
I tried to make my suggestion something plausible that is in the control of the SOX. Answers suggest as winning & gentrification of the surrounding neighborhood are not.

Winning is not something the Sox can control? Who does then? The fans? It's their job (meaning JR, KW and the rest of the Sox brass) to put a team on the field capable of competing with the best of the best.

Originally posted by CubKiller5
I beleive 2000 was a statement year that times have changed.
If that team was still playing in the old ball park I guarantee it would have drawn more fans.

You must not have been around in 1993 when the Sox drew 2.58 million (in the new stadium). Besides, I don't exactly think a 46% increase in attendance from the year before is anything to sneeze at. I doubt still playing in the old ballpark would have made any difference at all.

Originally posted by CubKiller5
There is a stigma associated with the new one that has been built by the media. It's right along side the low rent district now. The parking & the drive to the parking requires a patron to pass through it. Most people don't like to have to do that. It makes them uncomfortable.

I don't know about anyone else but I go straight from the interstate to the parking lot. I don't even see any of the neighborhood.

Originally posted by CubKiller5
Getting to the ball park is no different than in the past. I agree with you there. The SOX used to outdrawn the Cubs when the commute was the same. But things have changed for the Cubs. The CTA & the Metra have worked some sort of partnership with the club or the city or both to where on game days, busses & trains are very much in sync with one another.

I still believe that the continued hike in parking prices is driving the long distance fans away from this team. It's not a question of not being able to come up with $16 a game. It's perception. The majority of fringe fans I know hate JR more for breaking up the Bulls than the SOX. They say "screw him" when it comes to shelling out $16 for parking.

I'd rather pay $16 to park in an actual parking lot than to pay $20+ on the north side to park in somebone's driveway...

Originally posted by CubKiller5
I guarantee you if it was priced at a bargain before game time I would be able to get many more people to go. That's probably about 50 more admissions per year from just my effort alone.


I just don't see people saying to themselves "Hey, the Sox lowered their parking prices! Lets go check them out! Really the only people that know or care how much parking costs are the ones that already go anyway...

steff
04-08-2004, 01:23 PM
I just think this thread is hillarious...

:whiner: parking
:whiner: the neighborhood
:whiner: no bars or resturants


I'm so happy I go there to watch a ball game and not to view pretty houses or have dinner..

Iwritecode
04-08-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by steff
I just think this thread is hillarious...

:whiner: parking
:whiner: the neighborhood
:whiner: no bars or resturants


I'm so happy I go there to watch a ball game and not to view pretty houses or have dinner..

I've been known to make a meal out of the food at the park... :D:

steff
04-08-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I've been known to make a meal out of the food at the park... :D:


And so do I. I go there to watch a ball game. I don't hang out there when there isn't a ball game - and doing so would not benefit the Sox (i.e.. building a resturant or bar would give the Sox exactly $0.00 more $$'s for payroll... :rolleyes) so I don't care what's built around there.

Jerko
04-08-2004, 01:32 PM
I'm sick of all the low rent this, ghetto that, neighborhood and cost BS!!! :angry: :angry: Gee, the Chicago Stadium used to be packed for the Bulls AND Hawks, and nobody could convince me that it was any safer walking around that area back then, especially to and from some of those "satellite" parking lots up and down Madison Street between Ashland and Damen, than it is going to the Cell now. People bitch and moan NOW that it's too expensive to go to the Cell, that it's too hard to get there on time for the games after work, and that they get home too late after games. So, how can these SAME people get to a bar EARLIER, and stay out LATER, and not have the same gripes? Aww, poor babies have to take a highway and park, wahh! What do you people want, to be transported to and from your seat to your house using pods like the movie "The Fly"? Are Sox fans that big of wimps that they are afraid to go past such a vile neighborhood? As for $$$, every other park charges for parking, beer, and food, and yes, prices DO go up every year. I could see if beers were 50 cents at every other park but ours and nobody else in the majors charged for parking. Festivals? IT'S A FREAKING BALL GAME!!!!!!!! If we need "festivals" and "personal entrance ramps" to get "casual fans" to the park, well they can stay home for all I care. Like I said, everyone vilifies the north side party that goes on for each Flub game but that's what you want for the Sox? No way. It sounds like Sox fans are nothing but a bunch of sheltered, pansy ass cheapskates who God forbid may actually have to SEE a housing project on their way to the park and can't stand the fact that they might actually have to watch a ball game without sitting in bars 3 hours before and after each game. If any of you guys get your way, in about 20 years Sox = Cubs south. You can have it. And the old park was right next to the new one so I don't see how the low rent district is/was any further away. Why don't we just make all our games 1:20 starts while we're at it. Why don't we just knock down all the walls and take out all the seats and just make it one big free picnic for everyone? Good grief.

cheeses_h_rice
04-08-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by steff
I just think this thread is hillarious...

:whiner: parking
:whiner: the neighborhood
:whiner: no bars or resturants


I'm so happy I go there to watch a ball game and not to view pretty houses or have dinner..

:moron

Blasphemer!!!

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I've been known to make a meal out of the food at the park... :D:

It's pretty obvious by some of the posts here that many of you like things the way they are & don't really care to attract the fringe fan
who cares more about the experience than the game or SOX
themselves.

So be it.

Using 1993 as an example of attendance is weak. There was still the new ball park aura then. That faded quickly.

I'm guessing most of you don't know any fringe fans. I'm letting you know what they tell me. They thought $13, $15 for parking was a rip-off. Feeling that way they don't go. These are not avid fans. These are fringe fans. I would say about 30% of the cub attendance is fringe fans.

These same fans can get to/from a Cub game in a 1/3rd less time than it takes them to go to SOX park.

steff
04-08-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
These same fans can get to/from a Cub game in a 1/3rd less time than it takes them to go to SOX park.


Fans who care more about the time it takes to get to/from a game versus the game itself... ROTFLMAO!!!

Jerko
04-08-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by steff
Fans who care more about the time it takes to get to/from a game versus the game itself... ROTFLMAO!!!


I agree. NONE of the suggestions here even mentions the actual game, or the IN-park experience. IN the park. Where the games happen. I don't want to attract "fringe" fans, I could do without the wave and the ump attackers. I WOULD like to see the SOX fans that don't show up anymore come back. Everyone is so worried about how long it takes to get the park, well how long would it take once you got there to make your way through a "Festival" or extra traffic from altered off ramps and new bars? Get a stadium club pass or sit in the bullpen bar if you want to stay out after the game so bad, or tailgate AFTER the game in the lots. Now if people got treated better once they were IN the park, they would come back, and I still say the strike and the white flag trade have more to do with lackluster attendance than people think.

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by steff
Fans who care more about the time it takes to get to/from a game versus the game itself... ROTFLMAO!!!

That is why they are called FRINGE fans. For them it's more about going to see a MLB game than a SOX game. Did you know that there is a large contingent of Cub fans that just go to games for babe watching? I know some of them. They try to do the same at SOX games & say it's no where close to the same. They can be annoying at times.

I give up. It looks like the majority of the posters in this thread do not want to grow SOX attendance at the expense of becoming more like the Cubs. I can accept that.

In that regards though, what did JR accomplish by lopping off 6000 seats? These seats sell out for NYY & Cub games. That's 36,000 less admissions this year because of the change.

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I still say the strike and the white flag trade have more to do with lackluster attendance than people think.

That's getting really old. WFT is going on 7 yrs old now, & the strike is past 10 yrs old. What makes you think these fans would ever come back?

What you're suggesting is that the number one thing the SOX could do is get a new owner. If his partners were to ask him to step down the stigma associated with him would leave the organization. Is that what you're saying?

Sort of like how people are sympathetic with the Bulls now that Krause is gone.

steff
04-08-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
That is why they are called FRINGE fans. For them it's more about going to see a MLB game than a SOX game. Did you know that there is a large contingent of Cub fans that just go to games for babe watching?

*snip*




I'm sorry.. but no. I have no idea who these people are. I hang out with people who care about and watch the game. If they go just to "babe watch" then I'd rather they stay over at the **** hole on the north side anyway.

Jerko
04-08-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
That's getting really old. WFT is going on 7 yrs old now, & the strike is past 10 yrs old. What makes you think these fans would ever come back?

What you're suggesting is that the number one thing the SOX could do is get a new owner. If his partners were to ask him to step down the stigma associated with him would leave the organization. Is that what you're saying?

Sort of like how people are sympathetic with the Bulls now that Krause is gone.

It may be getting old, but some REAL Sox fans that I know won't come back until the owner is gone. I know fans who vowed never to go back after the strike too. So, it may be old, but it's not as old as never. I already suggested in 2 different threads that my #1 thing to make attendance better would be to treat the fans who DO show up now, better, once they're AT the game, making them want to go to more games. The place was packed BEFORE the strike, with the same upper deck, in the same neighborhood, and with the same amount of bars around it. Now I know that EVERY fan that boycotts because of JR won't come back when he is gone; but I would rather have even one of them come back than to sit there with the fringe fan who doesn't even care who wins the game. I'd rather go along at a 24,000 a game average and enjoy myself in my seat that I pay for instead of having 20000 extra carnival going, wave doing, bar-hopping, field jumping morons around me, that's all. As for the Bulls, a lot of those "sympathizers" just kept their season tickets for a few extra years because Jordan kept unretiring.

ewokpelts
04-08-2004, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
It's pretty obvious by some of the posts here that many of you like things the way they are & don't really care to attract the fringe fan
who cares more about the experience than the game or SOX
themselves.

So be it.

Using 1993 as an example of attendance is weak. There was still the new ball park aura then. That faded quickly.

I'm guessing most of you don't know any fringe fans. I'm letting you know what they tell me. They thought $13, $15 for parking was a rip-off. Feeling that way they don't go. These are not avid fans. These are fringe fans. I would say about 30% of the cub attendance is fringe fans.

These same fans can get to/from a Cub game in a 1/3rd less time than it takes them to go to SOX park. Those fringe fans pay 30 or more to park in someone's garage by wrigley...and they sometimes get locked out of thier own cars cuz teh garage owner went out..... I dont understnd this thing about making people get off "away" from the low rent district....everyone gets off at 35th, unless you have pre-paid parking, and you get off at 31st....most of the day of parking is on 37th...in bridgeport, not the low rent district...all you see are factories and some two flats....
Gene

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
It may be getting old, but some REAL Sox fans that I know won't come back until the owner is gone. I know fans who vowed never to go back after the strike too.

Maybe you're right. Maybe they lopped off 6000 seats because they refuse to accept the reality that what the TV watching fans really want is a new owner. Nothing less than that will bring them back. Since JR I'm sure refuses to accept that, he'll continue to do make changes thinking they'll make a difference.

Again, I'm not really in touch with the boycott fan as maybe some of you are. My circle revolves more around fringe fans who see the Cubs & SOX as pretty much the same in terms of going to a ball game. Fans it seems you don't really care about.

Here's a hypothetical :
JR will probably never sell (he'll move the team first). But let's say he did & the new owner was willing to spend $$$ to attract at least 1 marquee talent to the SOX.

How much growth in attendance do you think that would bring?
Who do you think would be the best marquee name for SOX fans?

Iwritecode
04-08-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
JR will probably never sell (he'll move the team first). But let's say he did & the new owner was willing to spend $$$ to attract at least 1 marquee talent to the SOX.

How much growth in attendance do you think that would bring?
Who do you think would be the best marquee name for SOX fans?

First of all, JR can't move the team for quite awhile. I believe the lease he has on the stadium makes it all but impossible.

Second, just having new ownership could increase the attendance.

If the new ownership came in and said they would spend some money to get this team to where it should be (acting like the large-market team they are) and then actually went out and did it (meaning the Sox become yearly playoff contenders), I'm sure we'd have no problem hitting 2.5 million yearly.

Iwritecode
04-08-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
I give up. It looks like the majority of the posters in this thread do not want to grow SOX attendance at the expense of becoming more like the Cubs. I can accept that.

At least you got that one right. The Cubs are a basically a freak of nature. They are the only team in MLB that can draw over 2 million fans and lose almost 100 games in the same season. A lot of it has to do with the Cubune and WGN.

The Sox on the other hand have attendance that relates directly to how well the team is doing, how well they did the year before and what the expectations for the upcoming year are.

As I've said before, if they win, we will come.

Then it won't matter how many bars and restaurants are around or how much it costs to park...

If you don't believe me, do some research on the Yankees. Their prices are horrible and they aren't in the best neighborhood either. They just win.

SoxBoy14
04-08-2004, 04:20 PM
:selljerry

iwannago
04-08-2004, 08:15 PM
MOVE!!!!

CubKiller5
04-08-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
The Sox on the other hand have attendance that relates directly to how well the team is doing, how well they did the year before and what the expectations for the upcoming year are.
[/B]

The Yanks are a horrible example when you consider the giant market they play in. It's about 3 times the size of Chicago's.

But you do add another point to this debate with respect to winning. What you're really suggesting is that they need to at least win a division 2 years in a row before the "WIN" fans come back to the park.
Is that about right?

The lease as I understand it is up 2011. I believe it was a 20 year lease. There are some kind of options that go with it starting in 2007. I don't remember if there is an option to buy out, but I do believe there is an option to extend.

With respect to moving, where do you think they should move to & how much of a difference would it make?

iwannago
04-08-2004, 08:40 PM
The O's are a crappy team and they draw over 2 million per. Sox should have never built the stadium across the street from the old one. They had the same attendence problems there. Should have moved to the burbs inspite of Daley in 1991.

Where should they move now? Northern Virginia they would easily draw over three mill with the current ownership.

Daver
04-08-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
The Yanks are a horrible example when you consider the giant market they play in. It's about 3 times the size of Chicago's.

But you do add another point to this debate with respect to winning. What you're really suggesting is that they need to at least win a division 2 years in a row before the "WIN" fans come back to the park.
Is that about right?

The lease as I understand it is up 2011. I believe it was a 20 year lease. There are some kind of options that go with it starting in 2007. I don't remember if there is an option to buy out, but I do believe there is an option to extend.

With respect to moving, where do you think they should move to & how much of a difference would it make?

That lease was extended by thirteen years when they signed the naming rights deal with U.S. Cellular.

Daver
04-08-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
The O's are a crappy team and they draw over 2 million per. Sox should have never built the stadium across the street from the old one. They had the same attendence problems there. Should have moved to the burbs inspite of Daley in 1991.

Where should they move now? Northern Virginia they would easily draw over three mill with the current ownership.

Your kidding right?


The only way they were going to get a publicly financed stadium was to build it in the city,using land that was partly owned by the city.

And moving the team was a bluff,done with the blessing of Bud Selig,who used the interest created for baseball in Tampa to get 200 million in franchise fees from the Devil Rays 4 years later.

poorme
04-08-2004, 08:59 PM
Was Bud in the picture back then? What was it, 1987?

iwannago
04-08-2004, 09:00 PM
Daver:

I don't know of any team that built a new stadium in the last 15 to 20 years that put it in a neighborhood as bad as the Sox. If not in the burbs why not downtown. Lets face the biggest problem re attendence is the Sox neighborhood.

Gotta go.

Daver
04-08-2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Was Bud in the picture back then? What was it, 1987?

Bud was the acting commisioner.

Daver
04-08-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Daver:

I don't know of any team that built a new stadium in the last 15 to 20 years that put it in a neighborhood as bad as the Sox. If not in the burbs why not downtown. Lets face the biggest problem re attendence is the Sox neighborhood.

Gotta go.


Then I suggest you do your homework on why Comiskey Park II was built right where it is.

iwannago
04-08-2004, 11:26 PM
Daver:

Where did you get your information from? Newspapers and TV? Or is it that your the big R's assistant.

I did my homework.


End of subject

soxnut
04-08-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Daver:

I don't know of any team that built a new stadium in the last 15 to 20 years that put it in a neighborhood as bad as the Sox. If not in the burbs why not downtown. Lets face the biggest problem re attendence is the Sox neighborhood.

Gotta go.

There was no other choice for building the ballpark in the Chicagoland area. And as for the neighborhood now, you know what's going on there don't you???

Daver
04-08-2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Daver:

Where did you get your information from? Newspapers and TV? Or is it that your the big R's assistant.

I did my homework.


End of subject

I got it from the Illinois Senate notes.

Do better homework.

Jerko
04-08-2004, 11:46 PM
Yeah, I'd feel much safer taking a chick to Wrigley. There, when I turn my back to piss on a lawn because I'm a mile away from the moron's garage I had to park by, she can get assaulted by one of the 2 serial rapists that hang out around there or get smashed by a falling porch. This neighborhood argument is so wrong it's not even funny. When did Sox fans become a bunch of elitists like this? Maybe if we move the stadium to The Garden of Eden you'd feel safe enough to go out in public? I think that damn snake should be gone by now. Maybe we SHOULD move to the suburbs; then I won't have to drink at the game, if I want to get high I could just meet my drug dealer in the bathroom, you know the one that overlooks a nice golf course next to a river with pretty boats on it that we can all look at instead of watching the damn game.

guillen4life13
04-08-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Daver:

Where did you get your information from? Newspapers and TV? Or is it that your the big R's assistant.

I did my homework.


End of subject

I'm sick and tired of all of this BS about "it's because of the ghetto."

The ghetto is gone or almost gone now and what used to be the projects right there is just a barren field, last I saw. The demolition of the projects started some time ago, and no noticeable increase in attendance has resulted, thus confirming the idea that the ghetto is not to blame. Another thing: people went (and still go) to Bulls games in spite of it being right in the middle of a bad area of the city. The Horner homes never stopped sellouts.

And to further see what I think is wrong with such statements, see the first post I made in this thread.


I might be wrong, but I think that a big step towards boosting attendance would be for JR and the group of investors to sell (I've not heard good things about the investors--I've even heard that JR wants to up the payroll but they won't allow it). If JR isn't to blame for the problems in this organization, the stigma of him being the problem would leave and boost attendance for at least a little while. Given the type of things expressed at Soxfest this year--people openly calling out JR, I think that it would be a good time for him to sell the team.



The new owners should then be willing to put good money into increasing payroll. This city is a two team town, but if the Sox start winning and showing a commitment to putting a good product on the field, then they can corner the market and become the major team of the city. A World Series win would have the potential to do that relatively quickly, as most Cubs fans are fringe fans who would lean towards the Sox if that became the trendier thing to do. There are two ways to make something trendy: win, or gentrify the surrounding area into what a couple of people on here have called "Wrigleyville II."

The latter option does not appeal to me as much as the first.

Jerko
04-08-2004, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I'm sick and tired of all of this BS about "it's because of the ghetto."

The ghetto is gone or almost gone now and what used to be the projects right there is just a barren field, last I saw. The demolition of the projects started some time ago, and no noticeable increase in attendance has resulted, thus confirming the idea that the ghetto is not to blame. Another thing: people went (and still go) to Bulls games in spite of it being right in the middle of a bad area of the city. The Horner homes never stopped sellouts.



That's what I am getting at. The attendance was higher when the neighborhood was worse. Logic alone defeats the whole "neighborhood" argument.

guillen4life13
04-08-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Maybe we SHOULD move to the suburbs; then I won't have to drink at the game, if I want to get high I could just meet my drug dealer in the bathroom, you know the one that overlooks a nice golf course next to a river with pretty boats on it that we can all look at instead of watching the damn game.

Yeah, and if you get caught they won't punish you because you're such a model citizen. I know you're joking Jerko, and I completely agree with you on this one.

Sorry, but if the Chicago White Sox moved to the suburbs, then they'd be the *insert suburb name here* White Sox. That doesn't sound fluid to me.

And as much as many (not all people, but a good amount of people) don't want to admit it, they want the team to play in a suburb so that there aren't any dangerous looking blacks or hispanics that live around the park. Yep, it'll be upper-middle class whites with a few Chinese or Indians here and there--nothing to worry about, and the occasional A-Rab who might have a bomb strapped to him but that would be all to fear.

I'm not saying anyone in particular holds these views at all, so don't feel insulted at all-- it's just my opinion that there are a few people who subconsciously feel this way but are unwilling to come to terms with it.

The stadium should stay, and there's nothing so wrong about the neighborhood, unless you're afraid of the hoards of Indians, Koreans and Chinese that go to IIT and live around there.

mweflen
04-09-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
I'd like to confine this thread to just one & only one suggestion per post for what the SOX can do to increase attendance.


Keep price increases either in line with inflation, or in line with Final Standings.

soxnut
04-09-2004, 12:05 AM
Fine you guys want JR to sell the team. Can you guarantee that the new owner would give and say "oh this is a Cubs town" and move the team somewhere else???

soxnut
04-09-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
Fine you guys want JR to sell the team. Can you guarantee that the new owner would give and say "oh this is a Cubs town" and move the team somewhere else???

I can just see it happening. Then the Cubs move in to USCF, because they can't do anymore to Wrigley. And in the meantime, the neighborhood get even better and trendier............. :(:

beckett21
04-09-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by iwannago
The O's are a crappy team and they draw over 2 million per. Sox should have never built the stadium across the street from the old one. They had the same attendence problems there. Should have moved to the burbs inspite of Daley in 1991.

Where should they move now? Northern Virginia they would easily draw over three mill with the current ownership.

Judging from your location, you would love for the Sox to move to Northern Virginia is my best guess.

Why do the O's draw 2 million? No competition to speak of. Why is Peter Angelos so adament to keep a team out of Northern Virginia/DC area? So that his crappy team can continue to draw 2 million fans. He would throw a temper tantrum of epic proportions if a team were to attempt to relocate to that area. :whiner:

The White Sox problems have nothing to do with location. They have a superior facility IMO with plenty of parking. Just because the media wants to say that Comiskey park is a mausoleum doesn't necessarily make it true. A move to the 'burbs would have been disastrous IMO. I am originally from the west suburbs, and let me tell you that the Eisenhower defines gridlock. The traffic from games would have been insufferable.

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and hypothetically say that the Sox moved to Addison or whichever other burb they considered. As Jerko correctly alluded to, the park will draw unsavory characters wherever it may be. There is no sterile environment. Anywhere that there is that much human traffic, there will be criminals looking to prey on the weak and unsuspecting. An increase in attendance would not come without a price. Doesn't matter where you are.

The Sox need to put a winner on the field, plain and simple. The rest will then take care of itself. Location has nothing to do with it. My only suggestion--win.

row18
04-09-2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I read this thread and it seems everybody who hates The Urinal and Wrigleyville wants the area around The Cell to become..................Wrigleyville II. Hey, let's build restaurants and bars, and 2 seconds later, Oh, those Cub fans suck because all they care about are restaurants and bars. Are these "restaurants and bars" gonna be free? Nobody wants to spend money on a lower deck seat because it's too much for a "family of 4", but going to restaurants and bars hours before the game AND still going to the game isn't gonna cost anything? And guess what; you'd STILL have to pay to park somewhere. I'd rather leave the Freakin place the way it is now with a nicer staff in there than become something we all say we hate, "The Cubs, Version 2.0" I can see it now, circa 2050:

Future moron Sox fan #1: Hey, it's 2 o'clock, the game starts at 7, let's go get some Applebees so we can have a base for later.

Future moron Sox fan #2: Yeah, then we can drink 300 dollars worth of beer at Bar Louie

Future moron Sox fan #1: Yeah, but hopefully I don't puke in that upper deck since I couldn't afford a lower deck seat and they don't let me move down anymore and there's only one half-price monday this year

Current moron Cub fan: Boy, if these restaurants and bars were always here, I would have been here running on the field and attacking umps YEARS ago, Oh wait, I did.

Future moron Sox fan #2: Is Sammy playing tonight? Oh this isn't Wrigley? I couldn't tell the difference, what with all these restaurants and bars around here and everybody is hammered by 3:30.

Jerko (at age 86): I knew this would happen one day. Ever since I read that thread on WSI on April 8, 2004, I knew this would happen.

Southside girl, at age 59 or whatever: Yeah, but that bartender they just hired is Hot, he's almost as cute as my second husband Barry Zito, who I married in 2006 after staking out the A's clubhouse and stowing away on their team bus.

Hangar18: This sucks, the Sox got more articles on the internet today, what the hell? That makes me mad because the dumb broad in Applebees with a brand new Sox hat on didn't even know that Dusty Baker's youngest Son, Darren XII, is our right fielder now and she's pretending she's a fan. I asked her to name our 2039 opening day lineup and she didn't even know Sandy Alomar was our catcher.


Do you REALLY want all this? I'd rather be buried in this town and still be ourselves than to be "the next Cubs".


Well said!

mweflen
04-09-2004, 12:30 AM
The Sox definitely need to be within Chicago. They were a founding AL team, and have always been urban.

But - when New Comiskey was built, it should have been built closer to downtown - at the time, the South Loop was nothing but abandoned factories and empty trainyards. Now it's a red-hot condo development area and Expansion territory for U of I.

Had the new stadium been built close to the Roosevelt or Harrison Red Line stops, it would have seen a lot more of the Loop "after work" crowd.

Not saying whether these additional fans would be good or bad (a la the discussion above), just that a great location with a view of the skyline (instead of the PJ's...) would have meant probably 5,000-10,000 more fans per game.

soxnut
04-09-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by mweflen
The Sox definitely need to be within Chicago. They were a founding AL team, and have always been urban.

But - when New Comiskey was built, it should have been built closer to downtown - at the time, the South Loop was nothing but abandoned factories and empty trainyards. Now it's a red-hot condo development area and Expansion territory for U of I.

Had the new stadium been built close to the Roosevelt or Harrison Red Line stops, it would have seen a lot more of the Loop "after work" crowd.

Not saying whether these additional fans would be good or bad (a la the discussion above), just that a great location with a view of the skyline (instead of the PJ's...) would have meant probably 5,000-10,000 more fans per game.


Of course that would have been a better spot. They wanted that, but they were offered a choice of south of 35th or nothing, so there ya go.........

mweflen
04-09-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
Of course that would have been a better spot. They wanted that, but they were offered a choice of south of 35th or nothing, so there ya go.........

The Sox stayed at 35th because Satan already owned the land, pure and simple. He went on the cheap.

I guess the maxim "you get what you pay for" is true, after all!

I mean, it's nice that they stayed in that neighborhood, kept business there, etc...

But from a purely selfish fan standpoint, I'd much rather go watch the Sox at a park where the beautiful Chicago skyline towers in the outfield, with higher attendance, and therefore higher revenue, higher payroll, better records, more playoff appearances, etc. etc.

Shoot, if they had just turned New Comiskey in the same direction as Old Comiskey (NE), the view would have been much more inspiring...

Daver
04-09-2004, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by mweflen
The Sox stayed at 35th because Satan already owned the land, pure and simple. He went on the cheap.

I guess the maxim "you get what you pay for" is true, after all!

I mean, it's nice that they stayed in that neighborhood, kept business there, etc...

But from a purely selfish fan standpoint, I'd much rather go watch the Sox at a park where the beautiful Chicago skyline towers in the outfield, with higher attendance, and therefore higher revenue, higher payroll, better records, more playoff appearances, etc. etc.

Shoot, if they had just turned New Comiskey in the same direction as Old Comiskey (NE), the view would have been much more inspiring...

Read the senate notes.

The city of Chicago owned the majority of the land that the park was built on.The rest was acquired through imminent domain.JR owned only a small piece of it.

mweflen
04-09-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Read the senate notes.

The city of Chicago owned the majority of the land that the park was built on.The rest was acquired through imminent domain.JR owned only a small piece of it.

Daver,

is there a link to these notes online? i'd definitely like to read them.

soxnut
04-09-2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Read the senate notes.

The city of Chicago owned the majority of the land that the park was built on.The rest was acquired through imminent domain.JR owned only a small piece of it.

See mweflen.....?

iwannago
04-09-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I got it from the Illinois Senate notes.

Do better homework.



And you actually believe that? All real work is done behind doors, you are green.

jabrch
04-09-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by mweflen
Had the new stadium been built close to the Roosevelt or Harrison Red Line stops, it would have seen a lot more of the Loop "after work" crowd.

Not saying whether these additional fans would be good or bad (a la the discussion above), just that a great location with a view of the skyline (instead of the PJ's...) would have meant probably 5,000-10,000 more fans per game.

5-10K more people over 2 stops on the redline? Um - I don't think so. From downtown it takes almost no time to get from my office to the 35th street stop. When I don't go to games it isn't because of how hard it is for me to get to the park.

There are three reasosn why I go to fewer games today (probably only 15 - 20 this year) than I used to (split season tickets up until two years ago)

A) Prices have gone up a lot - relative to my income.
B) The team has not performed in a manner worthy of me to continue to pour the kind of money I used to into tickets
C) Ownership has made excuses rather than committments


That's it - simple as that. What can ownership do?
A) Drop the prices
B and C) Make the team more competitive. 2nd place for 10 years in a row isn't enough. An occasional division only cuz of how bad our division usually is, isn't enough. We need a winner

Iwritecode
04-09-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
The Yanks are a horrible example when you consider the giant market they play in. It's about 3 times the size of Chicago's.

It's not exactly like Chicago is a small city either. There are more than enough people to fill both stadiums 81 times a year. They just need a reason to go.

Besides that, you missed the point I was making. The Yankees don't draw well because they are in a large market. They draw well because they win. And you never hear anyone complain about the "bad" neighborhood they play in. Go back and look at their attendance in the 80's when they weren't winning...

Originally posted by CubKiller5
But you do add another point to this debate with respect to winning. What you're really suggesting is that they need to at least win a division 2 years in a row before the "WIN" fans come back to the park.
Is that about right?

That's exactly right. When is the last time the Sox followed a playoff apperance with another one? Ever? The closest they came was 93-94. Then the strike happened and it all fell apart. I can guarantee that they would have drawn over 2 million and probably closer to 2.5 in 2001 if they had won the division again that year.

Originally posted by CubKiller5
With respect to moving, where do you think they should move to & how much of a difference would it make?

They aren't going anywhere for a long time so it's not even worth discussing...

rahulsekhar
04-09-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I'm sick of all the low rent this, ghetto that, neighborhood and cost BS!!! :angry: :angry: Gee, the Chicago Stadium used to be packed for the Bulls AND Hawks, and nobody could convince me that it was any safer walking around that area back then, especially to and from some of those "satellite" parking lots up and down Madison Street between Ashland and Damen, than it is going to the Cell now.

The reality of the area is true. The perception is unfortunately not in line with that and is perpetuated by the media. Adding to that is a lack of other activities in the area, which makes it relatively barren outside of game times and adds to the perception. That's unfortunate, but a reality. Combined with the general anti-JR & anti-Sox sentiment in media, it's a bad situation.


Festivals? IT'S A FREAKING BALL GAME!!!!!!!! If we need "festivals" and "personal entrance ramps" to get "casual fans" to the park, well they can stay home for all I care. Like I said, everyone vilifies the north side party that goes on for each Flub game but that's what you want for the Sox? No way. It sounds like Sox fans are nothing but a bunch of sheltered, pansy ass cheapskates who God forbid may actually have to SEE a housing project on their way to the park and can't stand the fact that they might actually have to watch a ball game without sitting in bars 3 hours before and after each game. If any of you guys get your way, in about 20 years Sox = Cubs south. You can have it.

A fact about sports today: they're more about entertainment than the sport, and dedicated fans are dominated in numbers by hardcore fans. That should actually work in Comiskey's favor since the park is much nicer, cleaner, more comfortable, better food, etc. But THOSE are the fans that make the Cubs the consistent sellouts (and that feeds on itself as the sellouts make them a "cool place to be", which then adds to demand). Those fans want alternate things to do other than just the game. We can slam them, but they provide a VERY important revenue stream that the Sox do not currently get a share of.

Bottom line: A team that both wins and can attract the casual fan will always win out in terms of attendance over one that just wins (unless you're talking a WS win). Especially when there's an easy alternative for those casual fans. To call for better attendance AND for them all to be harcore fans who are there only for the game and who know the team/sport is wishful thinking IMO. You can say you'd rather have lower attendance and not the casual fans, but then you have to live with the financial consequences (and the media ones as well since the media will always portray a popular place better than an unpopular one and will talk about them more).

jlh0023
04-09-2004, 03:51 PM
Maybe if we were more like the cubs, and had all of our players take steroids and cork their bats then we could get some fans to watch our boys crank homers in losing efforts all season long.

But more realistically, i think in some ways we do need to become more like the cubs to increase attendance. see people go to wrigley because it's in a nice neighborhood, they enjoy going to wrigleyville. maybe if the sox got some cash together and fixed up the neighborhood around the park to make it fan friendly, not to scare fans away, people would be more willing to spend a day at the sox game.....that plus winning games always helps.

CubKiller5
04-09-2004, 04:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rahulsekhar
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=353288

Very well said, but I think we need to add some realism here.

1) Prices are not going to be cut because they are in line with other mid-revenue teams. Don't even suggest the SOX are a low revenue team. Their local media revenue is 2 to 3 times larger than teams with mid-low attendance. Forbes usually places the SOX in the 15-20 area of revenue ranking.

2) The SOX need to do a survey on whether an increase in parking has cost them 1000's of fans. I don't buy your arguments that this is not a factor for long distance fans like myself. What I have found is that this directly ties in with owner sentiment. Fans I talk with think parking is the biggest adv over Wrigley & when they see JR constantly raising the price it only adds to that bitter owner sentiment.

Instead of guessing whether it's an impact they should call fans that have purchased some kind of season ticket pkg in the pass & see if it affects their decision. I know that it affected at least 5 people's decisions this past year. The total pkg of losing Colon, Everett, Gordon, & then facing yet another hike in parking fees they just said screw it.

Why not try it & see if has an impact? You could isolate it for W-R
games. These are typically non fireworks, or discount games when the attendance is usually the lowest.

3) If Daver is right & I believe he is about the lease being extended 13 yrs (ending in 2024-5) then their is no way the SOX can be moved unless the ISFA builds them a new stadium in the city area.

IMO, that leaves change of ownership has the #1 way to increase SOX attendance. I don't necc think JR needs to leave completely but I do think the partnership has to turn over to where the SOX spend enough to RETAIN their own players. Maggs is not worth 14 MIL but he is by far the best player on this team. That means he deserves to be paid the most. If the current partnership doesn't want to spend the $ to keep him then they need to go. I think having to see top talent walk away from this team over the years
angers fans the most.

Gimmicks:
I think it bears looking at Veeck's contribution to growing the fan base at Comiskey beyond those who are concerned with only W's.

The exploding scoreboard was a novelty at the time that captured people's attention. It's considered one of the biggest factors in the SOX growing fan base at the time. That novelty has worn off over the years & is really a non-factor in the new stadium.

To suggest that the SOX fan base does not need such things is IMO crazy. Every team needs these things. The Cubs have Wrigley. The biggest novelty attraction in all of sports. It seems to be growing strongery rather than wearing out any.

The SOX need something like that again. I don't know what it is but something that draws the casual fan that create's a unique SOX
entertainment experience. I agree trying to replicate Wrigley is neither in the SOX interest or heritage.

I don't know if it warrants a new thread, but definitely a new post.

CubKiller5
04-09-2004, 04:40 PM
You can say what you want but take a look at the SOX history of attendance after Veeck introduced the exploding scoreboard.
They did not win many back to back division championships in either the 70's or 80's & yet they were drawing the fans.

That's what the SOX need again. A gimmick like that which is UNIQUE to the SOX to attract the casual fan. I don't want the SOX to attract the beer drinking babe-watching Cub contingent either. These people rarely even know what's going on with the game. The key to what Veeck did was build the gimmic around game play. That's why new SOX fans in that era became die-hard baseball fans.

In 2004, this gimmic is next to meaningless now. With the proliferation of Jumbotrons many parks have copied it. The SOX need something new.

I'm just rattling these off:

Suggestions:
1) Prizes centered around home runs, web gems, or scoring plays:
Let it be subjective. Who cares?
Run it like an instant raffle around the game play.
When something noteworthy happens announce that ticket holder
xxxxx has won yyyyy. YYYYY can be as small as a food item or SOX merchandise.

2) Ignite the pin wheels. I don't know what this would cost or take but if the pin wheels had some kind of roman candle flavor to them when a home run occurs I think that would bring new interest to a time-honored tradition for the SOX.

3) Trivia prizes. This is a perfect gimmick at the Cell. In between innings post trivia questions & allow fans with cell phones or near phones to call in with the answer. The first 10 callers or something like that win a prize.

4) Take a page out of the sausage race only with Chicago teams.
During the 7th inning stretch have 5 mascots matching the 5 major Chicago teams: Bulls, Bears, Sox, Hawks, Fire. Let them race around the warning track. This works as both a promotion for all the teams & provides a nice attraction for kids. Once in a while you can have a special guest star (the Cub) show up & lose badly.
For the SOX you have a mascot that looks like a baseball, the bulls a mascot that looks like Benny the Bull, for the Hawks a hockey puck, the bears a football, & the Fire a soccer ball. If you don't think that would WOW the kids you must not have any or know any.

5) Live bands to play during innings.
Originally I was targeting this on the fan deck but it's been re-designed to where it's not possible. For those who don't know the fan deck is now tiered seating.
If you were to include a live band it probably would be best now to
set it on the concourse above the bullpen.

I don't think any of these suggestions would cost a great deal for the SOX & yet I think all of them would help enrich the experience for the casual fan.

I'd be willing to bet that if they did all 5 they could easily cross 2 million fans a year.

Daver
04-09-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
And you actually believe that? All real work is done behind doors, you are green.

I'll let Paul Weller know that the next time I am in his office.

iwannago
04-09-2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'll let Paul Weller know that the next time I am in his office.

Please do that, whoever Paul Weller is.

poorme
04-09-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by iwannago
Please do that, whoever Paul Weller is.

I take it you're not a fan of 80's brit pop.

JohnBasedowYoda
04-10-2004, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by iwannago
Daver:

I don't know of any team that built a new stadium in the last 15 to 20 years that put it in a neighborhood as bad as the Sox. If not in the burbs why not downtown. Lets face the biggest problem re attendence is the Sox neighborhood.

Gotta go.

What the heck is wrong with Bridgeport?!?!? Sorry the sox can't play in Hoffman Estates

mweflen
04-10-2004, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Prices have gone up a lot - relative to my income.


Prices in all sections but UD have outpaced inflation, by a long stretch.

It's pretty simple - if you were to annually raise the price of, for instance, going to a movie theater faster than the rate of inflation, patronage would decline.

But as Forrest Gump says, "that's all I have to say about that."

TornLabrum
04-10-2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by JohnBasedowYoda
What the heck is wrong with Bridgeport?!?!? Sorry the sox can't play in Hoffman Estates

I don't know if it's Bridgeport that he's worried about. I think maybe it's that little enclave around 37th and Wentworth and maybe across the neighborhood surrounding IIT. Just a guess, though.

ewokpelts
04-10-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rahulsekhar
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=353288



2) The SOX need to do a survey on whether an increase in parking has cost them 1000's of fans. I don't buy your arguments that this is not a factor for long distance fans like myself. What I have found is that this directly ties in with owner sentiment. Fans I talk with think parking is the biggest adv over Wrigley & when they see JR constantly raising the price it only adds to that bitter owner sentiment.

.

There is NO DAY OF GAME PARKING by Wrigley. Only ST holders have it. Every other lot is non-cub owned. I dont know how this helps the Cubs when it comes to out of towners. Peope have to park in Alleys and private garages for 30 a pop...i think Jerry's secured parking, even at 16 bucks is better.
gene

ewokpelts
04-10-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I take it you're not a fan of 80's brit pop.

I dont like 80's brit pop...but paul weller is good.
Gene

ewokpelts
04-10-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I don't know if it's Bridgeport that he's worried about. I think maybe it's that little enclave around 37th and Wentworth and maybe across the neighborhood surrounding IIT. Just a guess, though.

oh my...is that beacuse black people live there?
Gene

TornLabrum
04-10-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
oh my...is that beacuse black people live there?
Gene

It seems to me that whenever somebody talks about the "bad neighborhood" The Cell is in, the implication is that there are people whose skin tone is a little darker than the critic would like it to be.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2004, 02:31 PM
Win a championship and stop acting like all the fans and the media are their enemy.

Lip

ewokpelts
04-10-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
It seems to me that whenever somebody talks about the "bad neighborhood" The Cell is in, the implication is that there are people whose skin tone is a little darker than the critic would like it to be.

sad but true......
Gene

JohnBasedowYoda
04-10-2004, 04:52 PM
can't we all be brothers?

Jurr
04-10-2004, 05:07 PM
INCREASE THE DAY GAME NUMBERS, AND WE'LL SEE THEM SHOW UP! CHICAGO EMBRACES THE DAY GAME, AND THE SOX PLAY WELL DURING THE DAY!!! WHOO HOO!

beckett21
04-10-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
There is NO DAY OF GAME PARKING by Wrigley. Only ST holders have it. Every other lot is non-cub owned. I dont know how this helps the Cubs when it comes to out of towners. Peope have to park in Alleys and private garages for 30 a pop...i think Jerry's secured parking, even at 16 bucks is better.
gene

On the VERY RARE occasions that I have ventured to the Urinal, parking is nonexistent. Unless you (a) want to park 3 miles from the park or (b) want to pay $20-30 bucks to park in a non-sanctioned lot 10 cars deep (God forbid you want to leave early--you're STUCK).

Parking at Wrigley is as much of an oxymoron as *jumbo shrimp*--it's a JOKE compared to Comiskey, A JOKE. How much do people pay to park at concerts? Does that stop them from going?? I for one am HAPPY to pay for the convenience and security the Sox provide. They should be COMMENDED for the parking situation.

As to the thread topic...I still say WINNING is the answer.

Hangar18
04-10-2004, 05:21 PM
Heres the #1 thing the SOX can do, to INCREASE ATTENDANCE.
STOP LETTING THE NORTHSIDE TEAM OUTMEDIA US, AND GET SOME DANG GAMES ON TV, AND GET EQUAL COVERAGE.

If I was working for the SOX, Id be furiously making calls and getting some of these networks to Cover Our Opener Too.
And an Angry ph call would be placed to ESPN, "Are you With Us or Against Us?

Id love to tell you guys about the Exchange I had with 4 people from Iowa, here in town visiting, and what they thought about the SOX and Chicago in general.

NonetheLoaiza
04-10-2004, 07:01 PM
winning is about the only thing you can do to increase attendance. look at how the attendance increased near the end of the season last year. when the sox were in contention and playing quality ball, people came. i think that the half price days have been pretty good at drawing the fans to the game. as long as they play exciting, winning baseball, we won't have to worry about attendance.

ewokpelts
04-11-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
On the VERY RARE occasions that I have ventured to the Urinal, parking is nonexistent. Unless you (a) want to park 3 miles from the park or (b) want to pay $20-30 bucks to park in a non-sanctioned lot 10 cars deep (God forbid you want to leave early--you're STUCK).

Parking at Wrigley is as much of an oxymoron as *jumbo shrimp*--it's a JOKE compared to Comiskey, A JOKE. How much do people pay to park at concerts? Does that stop them from going?? I for one am HAPPY to pay for the convenience and security the Sox provide. They should be COMMENDED for the parking situation.

As to the thread topic...I still say WINNING is the answer.

word...on both counts

ewokpelts
04-11-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
INCREASE THE DAY GAME NUMBERS, AND WE'LL SEE THEM SHOW UP! CHICAGO EMBRACES THE DAY GAME, AND THE SOX PLAY WELL DURING THE DAY!!! WHOO HOO!

um...is that supossed to be in teal?
Gene

bafiarocks03
04-12-2004, 06:35 PM
We do not want the sox to increase their attendence! DUH!! because the less people there, the better seats you get! the more autographs you get! the closer to the field you get! do you see where im going with this!! less people=better seats!!! got it!!!! so..... ya!.....


:walnuts

DonkeyKongerko
04-12-2004, 06:38 PM
bafiarocks, nice screename :smile:

steff
04-13-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Heres the #1 thing the SOX can do, to INCREASE ATTENDANCE.
STOP LETTING THE NORTHSIDE TEAM OUTMEDIA US, AND GET SOME DANG GAMES ON TV, AND GET EQUAL COVERAGE.

If I was working for the SOX, Id be furiously making calls and getting some of these networks to Cover Our Opener Too.
And an Angry ph call would be placed to ESPN, "Are you With Us or Against Us?

Id love to tell you guys about the Exchange I had with 4 people from Iowa, here in town visiting, and what they thought about the SOX and Chicago in general.


You are kidding.. right.? That's your #1...?

How about winning...? No..?

So you'd rather see us on the news more reporting about what..? Our losses..? Jut like they do to the Cubs..?

Unreal.

doublem23
04-13-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18

Id love to tell you guys about the Exchange I had with 4 people from Iowa, here in town visiting, and what they thought about the SOX and Chicago in general.

And? Who cares what the Iowegians think about the Sox?

It's the easiest word in the world... W-I-N. That'll solve all your problems.

bigbohock
04-13-2004, 05:07 PM
I admit my other improvement ideas were stupid for the most part.

Here are some more.

1.) WIN

2.) Promote the team more to African Americans and in the inner city.

3.) WIN

4.) Get some people in the front office who know baseball, not ex-lawyers from Brooklyn like JR.

5.) WIN

:gulp:

SoxxoS
04-13-2004, 05:08 PM
1, 3 and 5 are all that matter.

bafiarocks03
04-13-2004, 09:27 PM
thank you! i love Bafia! he better come back this year! nobody wants Ozzie's kid!! Bafia is soooooo hot!!!

nitetrain8601
04-13-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by bafiarocks03
thank you! i love Bafia! he better come back this year! nobody wants Ozzie's kid!! Bafia is soooooo hot!!!

I hope you're only a teenager. The guy is 18 and I can say I unfortunately went to high school with him for the first two years with him and I played him in grammar school basketball. He sucked at basketball, don't know about baseball. Personally, the kid is a loser. BTW, I don't think he's going to be a batboy this year and he goes to Brother Rice High School.

bafiarocks03
04-15-2004, 11:53 AM
Dude are you serious!!!!!!!! he's 18!!! uh thats awesome!! he goes to brother rice!!?? wow!!! I don't care hes hot!!!!! y won't he be the batboy this year!!!!

bafiarocks03
04-15-2004, 11:56 AM
Dude whats bafia's first name!!!!!

muskrat23
04-16-2004, 02:11 PM
Are you serious?
Did they come out in 2000? NO!
Did they come out in 2001, 2002, 2003? NO!
Did they come out at old Comiskey? NO!
Did they come out before Reinsdorf owned the team? NO!

An average attendance of 23,000ish is bad. Take into account that we offer two 1/2 price nights per week, and its flat out terrible.

How can anyone tell me that winning or parking or anything would help attendance?

Sox fans need to stop making excuses and get there ass to the park to support the team!

CubKiller5
04-16-2004, 06:23 PM
That last post was flat out wrong. They did draw in old Comiskey.
The SOX routinely outdrew The N Sides at Wrigley until Harry Carey went to Wrigley. Harry went to Wrigley because JR signed on with ON-TV & Spectravision & moved the SOX to pay-per view.

This happened at a time when WGN was evolving into the BIGGEST superstation on cable across America. Way before Turner was in the game.

The attendance draw for the early 90's when the SOX had a good team suggests that the SOX can draw in spite of the neighborhood.

So the evidence suggests the following:
1) JR's involvement in the strike when the SOX had the best team killed a large portion of the fan base.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/history/significant_dates.jsp
Attendance history:
Sept. 26, 1984...Despite a losing season, the Sox close out the year with an attendance of 2,136,988, becoming the first Chicago team to surpass the 2 million mark in consecutive years.

In 1991 the SOX drew 2.93 MIL fans.

# Sept. 27, 1993...Bo Jackson hits a three-run home run as the Sox beat Seattle, 4-2, to clinch their first American League West title in 10 seasons.

# August 12, 1994...The Sox lead the American League Central by 1.0 game over Cleveland when the season is postponed due to a strike by the Major League Baseball Players Association.

CubKiller5
04-16-2004, 06:38 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/wsoxatte.shtml
JR killed the attendance. Twice!

The SOX drew 2.14 MIL fans in 1983 & 84. That was one of the largest draws in the league.
1985 is the year the SOX moved to pay per-view.
In the years after Harry went to Wrigley, Cubs went to WGN & all over America & the SOX attendance was lost what it averages today.
What I will call the 1.6 MIL die-hards.

Then the new stadium came in 1991. From 91 until 94 the SOX avg'd over 33,500 per game before the strike. It was declining but it was a minimal decline that a World Series in 94 would have impacted. JR has to be dumber than a box of rocks because a winning season in 94 probably meant 34,000 avg in 95.

Now look at 95: 1.6MIL
It took until 2000 to come close to the 2 MIL mark.
In 2003 they came close to it as well.

Price, location, & extras do not affect the SOX attendance as much as perception. JR is now very much hated by fans in Chicago for killing the 94 season & for breaking up the Bulls. Those sentiments are such that the most they can bring in a year when they win the division is 2 MIL. A World Series might bring it back & that hate will then subside. But until then, WINNING alone will not change the bitter taste JR has brought to SOX fans.

The #1 thing the SOX can do to increase atttendance :
Fire JR either by appointing a new director or selling the team.

muskrat23
04-16-2004, 07:52 PM
You're right. Here's what we need to do to get our attendance back up.

1) Dig up Harry Carey. He should definetly help get people back in the park.
2) Make JR sell the team. That'll teach him.
3) Lets not forget 1/2 price parking
4) Win a world series!

Anything else we might need to fill the park up?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-16-2004, 07:59 PM
:giangreco
"If you want to raise Sox attendance, do the following:

1.) Eliminate all the parking. Cruise the 'hood for somebody's garage spot.

2.) Add obstructed view seats in the front row along the third base line. Just ask Steve Bartman.

3.) Add a statue of Harry Caray. It is such a great Wrigley tradition, the Sox should honor it too.

That ought to do it."

Lip Man 1
04-16-2004, 10:58 PM
Cub Killer 5:

Point of information....SportsVision went on line in May of 1982. It was in the process of being sold to Cablevision and turned in SportsChannel - Chicago in 85 - 86.

Lip

CubKiller5
04-17-2004, 05:35 PM
Lip:

Thanks for clarifying that. I'll say one thing for JR he sure did push some of us into subscription TV. I've still got my old ON-TV Spectravision box in the garage somewhere :D:

The trials & tribulations of SOX fans. Feel our pain :D:

Lip Man 1
04-17-2004, 11:54 PM
Cub Killer 5:

You might enjoy reading this story:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Lip

Nick@Nite
04-18-2004, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Cub Killer 5:

You might enjoy reading this story:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Lip

Lip... great article. The "what went wrong" and "committing Harry Caray" portions kind of depress me... but I know what you say is the truth.

Btw, you referenced Houston snapping UCLA's long winning streak... I thought Notre Dame did it on January 19, 1974? I realize John Wooden's UCLA basketball program was a dynasty... and maybe they had multiple "long" winning streaks?

Lip Man 1
04-18-2004, 01:20 AM
Houston / UCLA played in 1968. Yes N.D. did snap UCLA's winning streak when Bill Walton was the center.

UCLA had numerous 'long' 20 games or more win streaks. I think it was 47 straight when the Irish beat them in South Bend.

Lip

CubKiller5
04-18-2004, 08:39 PM
Telander's article is depressing.

Same days, same city, near same time.
Attendance: Cubs 78K, SOX 26K

It makes me want to :whiner:

Especially when you consider that the price for the avg Cub ticket is 25% higher than that of the SOX.

Look, JR might have been the cause for our attendance decline by killing it twice but we still have to deal with the here & now. JR likes
his job so getting rid of him is about as probable as the SOX signing Pedro Martinez as a FA.

We need an answer & we need it fast so here's my new #1 thing the SOX can do to increase attendance: scale the pricing for walk up sales only.

If the LD is 50% undersold on game day, cut the price in 1/2 for walk up tickets.
If the UD is 50% undersold on game day, cut the price in 1/2 for walk up tickets.

The largest walk up crowd ever I think is 13K & of course on a 1/2 price night.

I believe the LD seats about 30,000. This includes the terrace seats & such. I might be wrong about that though. The stadium still holds 41K seats total.

It's like any other promotion: a discounted trial.
Even if the discount only pulls in a few more 1000 there is still the chance that a few 100 in that group might come back for more games in the future. Do that over the long term & you can convert casual fans to SOX fans.

It's like in any business. If you can get the public's attention with your product alone then you have to offer sales & promotions to get their attention.

One thing I didn't mention before is that the number of blue collar jobs in the general area of the SOX has declined significantly since the 80's & 90's. That definitely doesn't help as this was a core part of SOX attendance in those years.

Since Mon, & Tues are already promotion nights sponsored by the Tribune & Pepsi, get a few more sponsors for the rest.

We've got to do something because it's getting worse despite the team playing better.

CubKiller5
04-18-2004, 08:51 PM
Best quote:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/...egory=2&id=2096
Loganís book quotes Caray as saying "thatís when I made up my mind to leave. They were talking about maybe reaching 50,000 homes on pay TV instead of the 22 million people who watch the Cubs on WGN."

Thanks Lip.

we were talking about that at home this weekend.
It wasn't just the SOX moving to pay TV. It was the SOX deciding to do this when WGN was becoming a nation-wide superstation.
The first in the country to become one.

WGN in the 80's had become the mostly widely carried independant network in the country. It did in the 80's what FOX did in the 90's only it did it with a VHF signal. For those of you who are to young to know VHF vs UHF think of Nintendo vs Sega in the early video game wars.
Nintendo was everywhere & Sega was not.

voodoochile
04-18-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Telander's article is depressing.

Same days, same city, near same time.
Attendance: Cubs 78K, SOX 26K

It makes me want to :whiner:

Especially when you consider that the price for the avg Cub ticket is 25% higher than that of the SOX.

Look, JR might have been the cause for our attendance decline by killing it twice but we still have to deal with the here & now. JR likes
his job so getting rid of him is about as probable as the SOX signing Pedro Martinez as a FA.

We need an answer & we need it fast so here's my new #1 thing the SOX can do to increase attendance: scale the pricing for walk up sales only.

If the LD is 50% undersold on game day, cut the price in 1/2 for walk up tickets.
If the UD is 50% undersold on game day, cut the price in 1/2 for walk up tickets.

The largest walk up crowd ever I think is 13K & of course on a 1/2 price night.

I believe the LD seats about 30,000. This includes the terrace seats & such. I might be wrong about that though. The stadium still holds 41K seats total.

It's like any other promotion: a discounted trial.
Even if the discount only pulls in a few more 1000 there is still the chance that a few 100 in that group might come back for more games in the future. Do that over the long term & you can convert casual fans to SOX fans.

It's like in any business. If you can get the public's attention with your product alone then you have to offer sales & promotions to get their attention.

One thing I didn't mention before is that the number of blue collar jobs in the general area of the SOX has declined significantly since the 80's & 90's. That definitely doesn't help as this was a core part of SOX attendance in those years.

Since Mon, & Tues are already promotion nights sponsored by the Tribune & Pepsi, get a few more sponsors for the rest.

We've got to do something because it's getting worse despite the team playing better.

Aren't you just going to majorly tick off the season ticket holders and further decimate the base if you do this? I mean why pay full when you can walk up and get it for half?

Just win and all the problems will solve themselves, especially if the flubbies keep imploding...

bigbohock
04-18-2004, 10:54 PM
The #1 thing the Sox can do to improve attendence is WIN!

CubKiller5
04-19-2004, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by voodoochile
Aren't you just going to majorly tick off the season ticket holders and further decimate the base if you do this? I mean why pay full when you can walk up and get it for half?

Just win and all the problems will solve themselves, especially if the flubbies keep imploding... [/QUOTE

I disagree wholeheartedly. In my opinion the remaining season ticket holders are going to get their season tickets regardless of promotions. They do it because of their love for the SOX & the convenience of season tickets. It's the same with ticketmaster. Those who buy through ticketmaster are willing to pay the few dollars more for the convenience of it.

Offering 1/2 price tickets an hour or two before game time because of low sales of either UD, LD, or both will have no negligible effect on either of these pre-sale groups. There's no convenience in buying tickets based on demand the day of the game.

But there could be a residual effect that the franchise desperately needs. It's like BO in film. When a film does #1 at a BO over a weekend it creates more interest in the film. The Buzz factor draws more people to it.

I don't think we can wait for 2 winning seasons in a row to create Buzz in the SOX. We need to do something this year!

CubKiller5
04-19-2004, 02:22 PM
Just so you understand what I'm suggesting:
I'm splitting the discounts between the UD & LD. Treating the sales differently. If the LD is more than 50% sold then no discounts.
If the UD is more than 50% sold then no discounts.

If either of them is less than 50% sold, then discount that section.

Since the decision is being made on game day this has no impact on season ticket holders or on-line ticket buyers because there is no convenience in hoping for discounts. It's a different clientale of consumer. Think of those who use coupons & those who don't
at a supermarket.

Come to think of it, coupons in the Sunday paper is not a bad idea.
It works as both a media tool & a sales promotion. The decision to
do it would be based on a sales forecast.

Iwritecode
04-19-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Just so you understand what I'm suggesting:
I'm splitting the discounts between the UD & LD. Treating the sales differently. If the LD is more than 50% sold then no discounts.
If the UD is more than 50% sold then no discounts.

If either of them is less than 50% sold, then discount that section.

Since the decision is being made on game day this has no impact on season ticket holders or on-line ticket buyers because there is no convenience in hoping for discounts. It's a different clientale of consumer. Think of those who use coupons & those who don't
at a supermarket.

Come to think of it, coupons in the Sunday paper is not a bad idea.
It works as both a media tool & a sales promotion. The decision to
do it would be based on a sales forecast.

How would that help to draw anymore people? Basically, the people that are at the park are there to buy tickets no matter what the price.

If they suddenly cut the price in half an hour before the game, I doubt that would cause hundreds of people to start running to the park that wouldn't have if they didn't discount the tickets...

CubKiller5
04-19-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
How would that help to draw anymore people? Basically, the people that are at the park are there to buy tickets no matter what the price.

If they suddenly cut the price in half an hour before the game, I doubt that would cause hundreds of people to start running to the park that wouldn't have if they didn't discount the tickets...

That's because you don't understand today's SOX fan base.
The greater bulk of it comes from commuters to downtown.

I ask people every week the SOX are in town if they want to go to games. The only time they show an interest is on 1/2 price night.
So most of the times these people go on a spur of the moment.

In 2003 the attendance was poor until the team started winning & the trades were made. The turnaround equated to about an extra 200K fans. That 200K came from walk ups on game days. Spur of the moment decision makers.

What JR & company need to know is that the SOX are no longer an ICON in Chicago like the Cubs. The SOX compete with ALL entertainment venues whereas the Cubs are the strongest fraternity in the city. People do anything to go to games.

wdelaney72
04-19-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by steff
Right next to Plainfield.. I know where you are.. :D:

I spend 2 years teaching at Yorkville High School. I, too, know the area well.

steff
04-19-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Aren't you just going to majorly tick off the season ticket holders and further decimate the base if you do this? I mean why pay full when you can walk up and get it for half?

Just win and all the problems will solve themselves, especially if the flubbies keep imploding...


We get some perks that non season ticket holders don't get.

I don't mind the promotions if those fans can behave themselves.. :D:

CubKiller5
04-20-2004, 04:04 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/slezak/cst-spt-carol20.html
On top of drawing 159K for a 30MIL Reds team Slezak estimates another 100K just mulled around the nearby bars during the games.

When did Wrigley become the new Rush street? The SOX can't compete with that because it's got little to do with baseball. The #1
party place in Chicago is quickly becoming Wrigleyville.

poorme
04-20-2004, 04:10 PM
I would think going to a Sox game would be a lot easier for your average Joe than to have to deal with that mess. I mean if you've got 3 kids and a mini-van, going to Wrigley would be nuts.

chidonez
04-20-2004, 04:20 PM
It's the neighborhood. Young people live and party in Lakeview and area. I lived in Bridgeport for a couple of years, but aside from the few bars (which aren't bad), there's nothing to do. Pilsen is starting to spill arty-types down over the river and that might help to bring more people down, along with the cheaper rents and the orange line. But then everyone will complain about gentrification. Know what an apartment goes for up around Wrigley? You can't win them all. Before the 55 went in, Bridgeport was as nice as most neighborhoods on the north side from what I understand.

Iwritecode
04-20-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
That's because you don't understand today's SOX fan base.
The greater bulk of it comes from commuters to downtown.

I ask people every week the SOX are in town if they want to go to games. The only time they show an interest is on 1/2 price night.
So most of the times these people go on a spur of the moment.

In 2003 the attendance was poor until the team started winning & the trades were made. The turnaround equated to about an extra 200K fans. That 200K came from walk ups on game days. Spur of the moment decision makers.

What JR & company need to know is that the SOX are no longer an ICON in Chicago like the Cubs. The SOX compete with ALL entertainment venues whereas the Cubs are the strongest fraternity in the city. People do anything to go to games.

My main point still remains. The only people who would know that the tickets are half-price are the ones that are already there.

If you ask someone to go to a game on a monday or tuesday and they ask if they can get their tickets for half-price, you can say "yes definetly". If you ask someone to go to a game any other day of the week and they ask if they can get their tickets for half-price, you'd have to say "Maybe, it depends on the attendance".

I understand that the Sox rely heavily on walk-up sales and to be honest, that's a really bad thing to do.

People want to know about promotions (like half-price tickets) before the day of the game. Not after they show up at the park.

What the Sox really need to do is find a way to increase the season-ticket sales because that is how you get yearly attendances between 2.5 and 3 million.

Here's and idea... WIN! Then the following year, put a team on the field that everyone can look at in the off-season and say, "these guys have a good chance at making the post-season" THAT BTW, is where the Sox screwed up this year...

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by chidonez
It's the neighborhood. Young people live and party in Lakeview and area. I lived in Bridgeport for a couple of years, but aside from the few bars (which aren't bad), there's nothing to do. Pilsen is starting to spill arty-types down over the river and that might help to bring more people down, along with the cheaper rents and the orange line. But then everyone will complain about gentrification. Know what an apartment goes for up around Wrigley? You can't win them all. Before the 55 went in, Bridgeport was as nice as most neighborhoods on the north side from what I understand.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

voodoochile
04-20-2004, 04:26 PM
Fire Rob Gallas.

:selljerry

Hey, half way home...

CubKiller5
04-21-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
My main point still remains. The only people who would know that the tickets are half-price are the ones that are already there.


I think that's undestating the value of sports radio & radio in general.
There are ways to get the message out ahead of time including ticketmaster on the web.

But I was thinking of another method that might be better.
Why not use the Sunday papers to include coupons to that week's games? Of course Mon & Tues would be exempt but you could include coupon's for Wed,Thurs, & Fri games.

This is beneficial in 2 ways: One you control the duration of the promotion & 2 you get an easy measure of it's effectiveness by use of the coupon.

It's an easy thing to do & if it does help bring a few 1000 more fans a week where's the harm? It's a great way to advertise the team.
BTW, the Wolves & Bulls already do it.

CubKiller5
04-21-2004, 08:14 PM
I do have a general question that's related to attendance that maybe some of you can answer.

Someone told me that they did a survey in Bridgeport & Chinatown & found there are more Cub fans than SOX fans there.

Why is that? Why don't the residents in Bridgeport support the SOX?
Given the close proximation it's convenient for them to attend games.

Is it again JR's alienating effect?
The cost of having to park for residents with such a short commute?
They simply don't like the SOX?
They don't like the Cell?
They don't like baseball?

I just don't understand why. If I lived that close to any major league team I would definitely go to more games.

steff
04-21-2004, 10:46 PM
CubKiller5.. I see a lot of bitching by you about the attendance.. how many games have YOU been to so far this year...??

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

hawkeyesrule
04-22-2004, 11:34 AM
Here's the deal with bars/restaurants: people enjoy making an event of going to a game. It's not that everyone is required to go get tanked before a game, it's that people would like the option of coming down to the park and getting a bite to eat before going in and paying $3 for a pop and $5+ for a beer. My idea is to put in 2 bar/grill type places. One chain for those who like it and another that is privately owned, but with Sox memorabilia all over the place. The location is the key. Option 1 would be to put them in place of that pedestrian ramp on the north side of 35th right acrosss from the park. Option 2 would be to eliminate a few dozen parking spots and put them right in the lot, facing the stadium. Jerry could charge rent for these spots and get what he wants most: $$. Fans that want to hit a restaurant before a game get their wish.

As for the "ugly" neighborhood, I don't understand what the problem is. Those people live there, period. It's up to them what they want to do. I've been going to games since I was 6 months old, and I have never had a problem with anyone in Wentworth Gardens or Bridgeport.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-22-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by steff
CubKiller5.. I see a lot of bitching by you about the attendance.. how many games have YOU been to so far this year...??

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

I hate going to crowded games. It's not much fun, unless it's important and/or really tight of a game and the crowd gets into it.

I went to opening day, which was fun, but also miserable with the bathroom lines, etc. I also went yesterday, and it was nice.

I went to a sold out cubs game last week and I wanted to kill myself with the crowd...left in the 7th.

jabrch
04-22-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by UICJason
I hate going to crowded games. It's not much fun, unless it's important and/or really tight of a game and the crowd gets into it.

I went to opening day, which was fun, but also miserable with the bathroom lines, etc. I also went yesterday, and it was nice.

I went to a sold out cubs game last week and I wanted to kill myself with the crowd...left in the 7th.


(not directed at you Jason - others have made the same comment)
so...we all bitch about not having enough of a budget to afford to be a top flight team, yet some bitch that if we had 32,000 per night (2.6mm on the season) people would bitch about the lines at the bathroom? If that's the case, then people will bitch no matter what.

I can imaine it - Game 7 of the world series and I get home, 3 days later, still drunk, drenched in beer, and sign on to WSI only to find someone bitching that the lines at the bathroom were too long.

Fridaythe13thJason
04-22-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
(not directed at you Jason - others have made the same comment)
so...we all bitch about not having enough of a budget to afford to be a top flight team, yet some bitch that if we had 32,000 per night (2.6mm on the season) people would bitch about the lines at the bathroom? If that's the case, then people will bitch no matter what.

I can imaine it - Game 7 of the world series and I get home, 3 days later, still drunk, drenched in beer, and sign on to WSI only to find someone bitching that the lines at the bathroom were too long.

Oh I'm sure. It's ridiculous. I never bitch about the budget though. I think this team has plenty of talent. Somehow, it doens't pull together. I don't believe in the Yankee system of buying players, and I wouldn't want to be that team.

Baseball is a community sport. There are 81 games and you're supposed to be able to walk up to the window day of and get a ticket. I was pissy in 2000 when the bandwagon came and I actually walked up to the window to find the game sold out.

soxnut
04-22-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by UICJason
Oh I'm sure. It's ridiculous. I never bitch about the budget though. I think this team has plenty of talent. Somehow, it doens't pull together. I don't believe in the Yankee system of buying players, and I wouldn't want to be that team.

Baseball is a community sport. There are 81 games and you're supposed to be able to walk up to the window day of and get a ticket. I was pissy in 2000 when the bandwagon came and I actually walked up to the window to find the game sold out.


Well, I never experienced a sell out. But back in 1990, it was the same kinda thing for me. In '89 and early '90 no one was going to games. I would go, sit anywhere I wanted, roam wherever, go the bathroom whenever....then the bandwagoners came, and I was a little pissy too. But the energy from the crowd made up for it. :smile:

Jerko
04-22-2004, 01:00 PM
I like the ballpark, always have, but they HAVE to stop selling standing room only tickets in the lower deck. An usher came up to me and asked me if he could see my "standing room only ticket". I know that's his job but I was standing in line for the bathroom at the time!!! That's how long the lines were last night from about the 3rd inning on. I was at the allstar game, I've been to the playoff games, Scrub games, and countless openers, and yesterday might have been the worst night of them all in regards to the johns. If they're gonna sell standing room only tickets, why do they even have the upper deck policy in place? There's still 10000 extra people jammed into a space where they don't fit. I promise I won't bitch about this anymore after the Sox win the World Series. :smile:

maurice
04-22-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Someone told me that they did a survey in Bridgeport & Chinatown & found there are more Cub fans than SOX fans there. Why is that?

It's not. The vast majority of Bridgeport residents are Sox fans, certainly more so than anywhere else. A large percentage of Chinatown residents are from China and don't give a crap about baseball.

Almost none of the people who make lame excuses about their failure to attend games live on the South Side. These so-called Sox fans and JR's hostility to casual fans are the real problems with attendance.

The Critic
04-22-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
It seems to me that whenever somebody talks about the "bad neighborhood" The Cell is in, the implication is that there are people whose skin tone is a little darker than the critic would like it to be.

hey hey HEEEEEYYYYY!!!!
I have NO problem with ANYONE's skin tone!!!!
:D:
This has turned into a VERY interesting thread, by the way, on so many levels....

ewokpelts
04-22-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I like the ballpark, always have, but they HAVE to stop selling standing room only tickets in the lower deck. An usher came up to me and asked me if he could see my "standing room only ticket". I know that's his job but I was standing in line for the bathroom at the time!!! That's how long the lines were last night from about the 3rd inning on. I was at the allstar game, I've been to the playoff games, Scrub games, and countless openers, and yesterday might have been the worst night of them all in regards to the johns. If they're gonna sell standing room only tickets, why do they even have the upper deck policy in place? There's still 10000 extra people jammed into a space where they don't fit. I promise I won't bitch about this anymore after the Sox win the World Series. :smile:

Waitaminute....they sold SRO tix EVEN THOUGH there were only 26 k in the house, and a big ol upper deck just waiting to be filled? This after thier "no SRO tix" policy regarding the asg, flubs/sox, and playoff games?
GENE

CubKiller5
04-22-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by steff
CubKiller5.. I see a lot of bitching by you about the attendance.. how many games have YOU been to so far this year...??

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

2

But I'm not bitching from the viewpoint of what I think of the ball park or the team. If I could clone myself I would be a season ticket holder & go all the time. But I can't so I have to cajole, treat, make deals, give favors, & every other know PG rated act of humility you can think of to get family, friends, & loved ones to go to the park.

That pisses me off. Especially when 2/3rds of them are either cubby fans or what they call themselves "Chicago" baseball fans.

I'm just trying to get reasonable answers as to why fans don't frequent the Cell & what's the most immediate thing the SOX can do to change that.

Another thing bothering me is why isn't there a strong IIT student body presence at SOX games. There are at least 2000 students living on campus a few blocks from the ball park. Why haven't the SOX reached out to this potential fan base?

Let's forget the Cubs for a second.
We should be outdrawing these teams & we're not:
Cinn Reds
Texas Rangers
Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Thanks to the NYY we now rank 22nd. Tops in the ALC.
But in my opinion there's no reason this team can't rank as high as the Houston Astros. Both teams have similar budgets.

Houston this year with Clemens & Pettite : 9th

Thanks to the NYY we rank 13th on the road so far.

I don't think winning alone is the answer.
This team has been competitve every year for the past decade.
Finishing either 1st or 2nd in the division. Posting a better record
than the cubs in that time frame. That's hardly the atrributes of a dog team.

ewokpelts
04-22-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
2

But I'm not bitching from the viewpoint of what I think of the ball park or the team. If I could clone myself I would be a season ticket holder & go all the time. But I can't so I have to cajole, treat, make deals, give favors, & every other know PG rated act of humility you can think of to get family, friends, & loved ones to go to the park.

That pisses me off. Especially when 2/3rds of them are either cubby fans or what they call themselves "Chicago" baseball fans.

I'm just trying to get reasonable answers as to why fans don't frequent the Cell & what's the most immediate thing the SOX can do to change that.

Another thing bothering me is why isn't there a strong IIT student body presence at SOX games. There are at least 2000 students living on campus a few blocks from the ball park. Why haven't the SOX reached out to this potential fan base?

Let's forget the Cubs for a second.
We should be outdrawing these teams & we're not:
Cinn Reds
Texas Rangers
Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Thanks to the NYY we now rank 22nd. Tops in the ALC.
But in my opinion there's no reason this team can't rank as high as the Houston Astros. Both teams have similar budgets.

Houston this year with Clemens & Pettite : 9th

Thanks to the NYY we rank 13th on the road so far.

I don't think winning alone is the answer.
This team has been competitve every year for the past decade.
Finishing either 1st or 2nd in the division. Posting a better record
than the cubs in that time frame. That's hardly the atrributes of a dog team.
We've had bad weather and day games. And we're not the cubs. Houston can draw more cuz in april it's in the 70's at night...and they have a roof. Cincinatti has a relatively new park and they played the cubs. Tampa had two "home" games in Japan....and they played the yankees a lot this month. We had to have day games cuz of a cub fan attacking an umpire. This weekend wont be much better, when both chicago teams are home, and playing games in the day(sat/sun)...again because of a cubs fan attacking an umpire...so shut uyp about april attendance. You and rick telander can kiss my lilly white ***. Talk to me in June, after we get some night games in warm weather.

Gene

DSpivack
04-22-2004, 03:11 PM
Selling SRO tickets with UD seats available makes NO sense.

hawkeyesrule
04-22-2004, 03:13 PM
SRO is fine. So someone buys an SRO ticket and lines are long? Maybe it's their first time there and they have a blast. Then they keep coming back. Increasing attendance WILL NOT happen overnight. That's the perception of the idiots in management. If they want to build the franchise, they need to take their time. Getting loaner players for half the year last year is not the way to go. You're basically expecting fans to run out to the game, and only giving them a small window to get in to it. What they need to focus on is building a foundation of fans over the long term.

My suggestion is to expand the fan deck to go all the way around. Install a few amenities up there, and make the whole thing general admission for $8. Make sure it is self contained, so people can't sneak down. The younger generation of fans wants to socialize (between innings only!) at games, not just plop down in a seat and watch.

voodoochile
04-22-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by hawkeyesrule
SRO is fine. So someone buys an SRO ticket and lines are long? Maybe it's their first time there and they have a blast. Then they keep coming back. Increasing attendance WILL NOT happen overnight. That's the perception of the idiots in management. If they want to build the franchise, they need to take their time. Getting loaner players for half the year last year is not the way to go. You're basically expecting fans to run out to the game, and only giving them a small window to get in to it. What they need to focus on is building a foundation of fans over the long term.

My suggestion is to expand the fan deck to go all the way around. Install a few amenities up there, and make the whole thing general admission for $8. Make sure it is self contained, so people can't sneak down. The younger generation of fans wants to socialize (between innings only!) at games, not just plop down in a seat and watch.

Since both your posts are in this thread, I suppose it doesn't matter which one I quote.

So, Welcome Aboard! :D:

hawkeyesrule
04-22-2004, 04:21 PM
I got no feedback, though :)

steff
04-22-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
But I'm not bitching from the viewpoint of what I think of the ball park or the team.

*snip*

I don't think winning alone is the answer.
This team has been competitve every year for the past decade.
Finishing either 1st or 2nd in the division. Posting a better record
than the cubs in that time frame. That's hardly the atrributes of a dog team.


Personally.. I don't care. This is not my fight to fight.. and it's useless and counter-productive to debate it here.. where in case you haven't noticed.. people DO go to the games.

You keep posting suggestions but guess what.. NOTHING will change unless they win. All the half price tickets.. $5 UD seats.. fancy promotions.. etc.. isn't going to do jack unless the team wins. You want to go watch a team lose.. but get a cool bobble-head or only pay $5 for a seat...?

That says a lot about you..

steff
04-22-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by DSpivack
Selling SRO tickets with UD seats available makes NO sense.


How much were they anyway?

CubKiller5
04-23-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by steff
Personally.. I don't care. This is not my fight to fight.. and it's useless and counter-productive to debate it here.. where in case you haven't noticed.. people DO go to the games.

You keep posting suggestions but guess what.. NOTHING will change unless they win. All the half price tickets.. $5 UD seats.. fancy promotions.. etc.. isn't going to do jack unless the team wins. You want to go watch a team lose.. but get a cool bobble-head or only pay $5 for a seat...?

That says a lot about you..

{b] What I said:! [/b]
Winning ALONE will not solve the attendance problem.
However; it's definitely the biggest factor & a requirement.
The team must remain competitive ALWAYS to draw.

Looking at the attendance figures for the home series with the NYY$'s it's clear that the 1/2 price nights make a difference. Despite horrible weather on Tues the attendance was listed as 7000 MORE than Wed. Now that's indisputable evidence that pricing makes a MAJOR difference.

Daver
04-23-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5


Looking at the attendance figures for the home series with the NYY$'s it's clear that the 1/2 price nights make a difference. Despite horrible weather on Tues the attendance was listed as 7000 MORE than Wed. Now that's indisputable evidence that pricing makes a MAJOR difference.

No it isn't.

Prices for baseball games are based on what the market will bear,not on attendance.You gain attendance by increasing interest in your product,not by cutting the value of your product.

Your entire premise is flawed from the outset,by targeting casual fans,the intent has to be increasing your fanbase,and the cost of attendance means little in that.Thus,by fielding a winning team,you will increase interest in the team,and the attendance will follow.

You get an F in Marketing 101.

poorme
04-23-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No it isn't.

Prices for baseball games are based on what the market will bear,not on attendance.You gain attendance by increasing interest in your product,not by cutting the value of your product.

Your entire premise is flawed from the outset,by targeting casual fans,the intent has to be increasing your fanbase,and the cost of attendance means little in that.Thus,by fielding a winning team,you will increase interest in the team,and the attendance will follow.

You get an F in Marketing 101.

You can market a product on price or quality. Right now the Sox do neither.

Mickster
04-23-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
{b] What I said:!
Looking at the attendance figures for the home series with the NYY$'s it's clear that the 1/2 price nights make a difference. Despite horrible weather on Tues the attendance was listed as 7000 MORE than Wed. Now that's indisputable evidence that pricing makes a MAJOR difference. [/B]

In comparison, Thursday's game drew 2K more than Tuesday's 1/2 price night. Your theory fails.

voodoochile
04-23-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by poorme
You can market a product on price or quality. Right now the Sox do neither.

Not true. They are definitely cheaper than their nearest competition for the baseball dollar and when you add in the 1/2-price deals they offer, it isn't even close. But, I admit the Sox don't market that fact well.

In addition, you cannot go strictly on cost. If the perception of your product is that it sucks, then no price will be cheap enough. Like it or not, between JR and the stadium issues, the team is viewed as a poor value at any price. They need to change that perception. Gallas being gone is step number one...

mweflen
04-23-2004, 07:38 PM
wow - and i wasn't even involved in this one... :D:

poorme
04-23-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not true. They are definitely cheaper than their nearest competition for the baseball dollar and when you add in the 1/2-price deals they offer, it isn't even close. But, I admit the Sox don't market that fact well.

In addition, you cannot go strictly on cost. If the perception of your product is that it sucks, then no price will be cheap enough. Like it or not, between JR and the stadium issues, the team is viewed as a poor value at any price. They need to change that perception. Gallas being gone is step number one...

Sure, perception is a HUGE part of marketing. The sox have done a piss-poor job of doing it.

What we're really arguing about is whether or not ticket price decreases would raise ultimately raise revenue streams. Without knowing how elastic the demand for sox tickets is, it's anyone's guess. It's really unpleasant how a handful of belligerent folks here (not you voodoo) berate people who don't happen to share the same OPINION that they do.

ondafarm
04-23-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not true. They are definitely cheaper than their nearest competition for the baseball dollar and when you add in the 1/2-price deals they offer, it isn't even close. But, I admit the Sox don't market that fact well.

In addition, you cannot go strictly on cost. If the perception of your product is that it sucks, then no price will be cheap enough. Like it or not, between JR and the stadium issues, the team is viewed as a poor value at any price. They need to change that perception. Gallas being gone is step number one...

Voodoo,
I agree with your analysis with the addition of two words.

They are definitely cheaper than their nearest competition for the major league baseball dollar.

My addition in blue.

There are several very entertaining minor league teams in the Chicagoland area. But Major League should blow away minor league ball. That its not is a sad reflection on White Sox marketing.

dwnstatesoxfan
04-24-2004, 01:15 AM
Regime change....at the top. Period.

jabrch
04-24-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
In comparison, Thursday's game drew 2K more than Tuesday's 1/2 price night. Your theory fails.

Interestingly - 1$ Hotdog night is a bigger savings for me than halfprice Tuesday. The difference between my $12 ticket and my $6 ticket is not as great as when I scarf down my 4th hotdog. Now there are some, my wife included, who think that after the 2nd hotdog, I should be seeing diminishing marginal returns, however that's besides the point. In any case, the Sox do a lot of things to make games affordable.

The attendance problem has little to do with cost and has everything to do with fan interest. Winning baseball, along with improved marketing would result in improved attendance. Anything less is just temporary.

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 03:17 PM
Ok since some of you are making it personal I will do the same.
Daver your post indicates you don't know jack about marketing so I suggest you keep quiet in this debate.

Marketing is about supply & demand. Period. When you have an over-supply, you use sales & gimmicks to dump inventory. When you have an under-supply you use quality pitches to drive higher priced sales. It's pretty simple. Brand name recognition is all about increasing demand.

Comparing the 2 teams, the cub has an under-supply & the SOX have an over-supply if you equate available seats as the supply side. All you're arguments about winning & such take no less than 2 yrs to reap a benefit. That does nothing to drive sales this year.

The scheduling absolutely sucks so far for the SOX in that they are going up against the cub head to head these past few days. That makes it even harder to sell tickets to the casual fan. I hope this doesn't keep happening all season long.

As for why Thurs outdrew Tues that's simple. Thurs weather was MUCH better than Tues. If Tues weather had been anything like Thurs it might have been a sell out.

I agree a regime change would have the biggest impact to increasing the attendance but how likely is that going to happen?

The SOX in my opinion are still in the dark ages when it comes to
marketing & pricing this team. The product is not just the SOX but the game itself. That includes the opponent the SOX face. The
more popular the opponent the higher the price. Even the cub understand this as do most of the 30 teams.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Ok since some of you are making it personal I will do the same.
Daver your post indicates you don't know jack about marketing so I suggest you keep quiet in this debate.

As somebody who has worked most of his adult life in sales for a Fortune 500 company that specializes in the national distribution of brands in consumer packaged goods that penetrate nearly 100 percent of American households, and further as someone who got his degree in business administration with a specialty in marketing, I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that cutting your price is the absolute LAST PLACE you go to fix your marketing plan.

Cut your price = cheapen your product = commodity product = marketing disaster.

The fact you would START there only demonstrates for the rest of us your ignorance about this subject.

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 03:34 PM
What I would have done:
Based on the weather reports I would have decided to go 1/2 price on the NYY the weekend before the game for Tues. The SOX did that.

But here's what the SOX didn't do that would go further to increasing a steady fan base: $5 redemption on SOX tickets towards future tickets.
I would do this for all SOX games but exempt Mon & Tues 1/2 price nights for redemption.

2004 home attend:
37.7, 11.7, 15.1
32, 26, 34
12, 17

The psychology of sales would prove that attendance would be no less than 10% higher with the rebate in place from game 1. If you had attended opening day the rebate would apply to any non 1/2 price night. Just show up with your ticket from a prior game of that year to get the $5 rebate on new ticket purchases.

That's the #1 think I think the SOX can do to increase attendance
THIS YEAR!

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
As somebody who has worked most of his adult life in sales for a Fortune 500 company that specializes in the national distribution of brands in consumer packaged goods that penetrate nearly 100 percent of American households, and further as someone who got his degree in business administration with a specialty in marketing, I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that cutting your price is the absolute LAST PLACE you go to fix your marketing plan.

Cut your price = cheapen your product = commodity product = marketing disaster.

The fact you would START there only demonstrates for the rest of us your ignorance about this subject.

This was supposed to be about the SOX but since you made it general let's go there. Better yet let's see how well you do your homework. Name some Fortune 500 companies that do not use PRICING to drive sales. I will name you one that dominates it's sector : INTEL.

However we aren't talking in general we're talking about the SOX.
A team whose ownership drove 1/3rd of the fans away for good during the strike season. A team who is being dominated by the cub in attendance this year. A proper analogy between the cub & the SOX is INTEL & AMD. Even the AMDs of the world know that they have to use pricing to drive sails against a behemoth like INTEL.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
What I would have done:
Based on the weather reports I would have decided to go 1/2 price on the NYY the weekend before the game for Tues. The SOX did that.

But here's what the SOX didn't do that would go further to increasing a steady fan base: $5 redemption on SOX tickets towards future tickets.
I would do this for all SOX games but exempt Mon & Tues 1/2 price nights for redemption.

2004 home attend:
37.7, 11.7, 15.1
32, 26, 34
12, 17

The psychology of sales would prove that attendance would be no less than 10% higher with the rebate in place from game 1. If you had attended opening day the rebate would apply to any non 1/2 price night. Just show up with your ticket from a prior game of that year to get the $5 rebate on new ticket purchases.

That's the #1 think I think the SOX can do to increase attendance
THIS YEAR!

And then you wonder why Eric Dybas the Cubs fan ties one on at the Urinal, goes home to change his shirt, and then shows up at the Cell for a night cap before running on the field and making all the national TV shows.

Cheap, cheap, cheap... it seems we have plenty of that already.

Do us all a favor and stay out of Sox marketing.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
This was supposed to be about the SOX but since you made it general let's go there. Better yet let's see how well you do your homework. Name some Fortune 500 companies that do not use PRICING to drive sales. I will name you one that dominates it's sector : INTEL.

However we aren't talking in general we're talking about the SOX.
A team whose ownership drove 1/3rd of the fans away for good during the strike season. A team who is being dominated by the cub in attendance this year. A proper analogy between the cub & the SOX is INTEL & AMD. Even the AMDs of the world know that they have to use pricing to drive sails against a behemoth like INTEL.

Intel has the brand name. Their products command a premium because consumers know and trust it, just like 120 years ago when they trusted Quaker Oats over the **** sitting in the bottom of an unbranded barrel marked "oats."

Kane County prices their product less than MLB because they serve an inferior product. I guess you're okay with the Sox cutting their price and leaving consumers with that same impression.


Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant...

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Intel has the brand name. Their products command a premium because consumers know and trust it, just like 120 years ago when they trusted Quaker Oats over the **** sitting in the bottom of an unbranded barrel marked "oats."

Kane County prices their product less than MLB because they serve an inferior product. I guess you're okay with the Sox cutting their price and leaving consumers with that same impression.


Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant...

What impression? It's a fact. Baseball fans in Chicago prefer Wrigley field & the cub over The Cell & the SOX 2 to 1. That's reality.

Now you can sit there & continue to twiddle your thumbs, spend 60 MIL a year on talent, & hope for a miracle or you can do something to change that reality.

INTEL became a brand name because it offered a lower cost product at a time when IBM dominated the sector. INTEL could offer a lower cost product because it's operating & production costs were substantially lower. This was even before Windows! It's ability to produce a substantially lower priced personal computer running with either MS-DOS or PC-DOS is what enabled it to build it's market share. It had nothing to do with quality as the best quality pc at the time was at Apple.

PRICE is a function of (production,operation) costs + DEMAND>
The SOX have a 33% lower cost base & a 33% lower demand base to work with than the SOX.

QUALITY in a MLB team is a function of (wins, talent).
Talent in the modern age is a function of salary.

So in the eyes of the baseball community a 91MIL payroll makes a 68MIL payroll look inferior. Whether you like it or not doesn't change the fact of how it is perceived by the demand side. The fact that the 91MIL team is the favorite to win the World Series & the 68MIL team is not even the consensus favorite to win it's division
only compounds that perception.

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 04:25 PM
Correction:
cub home avg: 39.6K
Sox home avg: 23.2K

For every 3 SOX fans there are 5 cub fans.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
What impression? It's a fact. Baseball fans in Chicago prefer Wrigley field & the cub over The Cell & the SOX 2 to 1. That's reality.

Now you can sit there & continue to twiddle your thumbs, spend 60 MIL a year on talent, & hope for a miracle or you can do something to change that reality.

INTEL became a brand name because it offered a lower cost product at a time when IBM dominated the sector. INTEL could offer a lower cost product because it's operating & production costs were substantially lower. This was even before Windows! It's ability to produce a substantially lower priced personal computer running with either MS-DOS or PC-DOS is what enabled it to build it's market share. It had nothing to do with quality as the best quality pc at the time was at Apple.

PRICE is a function of (production,operation) costs + DEMAND>
The SOX have a 33% lower cost base & a 33% lower demand base to work with than the SOX.

QUALITY in a MLB team is a function of (wins, talent).
Talent in the modern age is a function of salary.

So in the eyes of the baseball community a 91MIL payroll makes a 68MIL payroll look inferior. Whether you like it or not doesn't change the fact of how it is perceived by the demand side. The fact that the 91MIL team is the favorite to win the World Series & the 68MIL team is not even the consensus favorite to win it's division
only compounds that perception.

PRICE is whatever the market will bear.

QUALITY is whatever the consumer *perceives* it to be.

You mistakenly think cutting your price won't effect perceived quality. You couldn't be more wrong. Just ask Eric Dybas, the drunk Cubs fan.

The Sox have plenty of cheap fans and you want to draw more of them with 1/2 price nights? Your last name wouldn't be Gallas, would it?

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
PRICE is whatever the market will bear.

QUALITY is whatever the consumer *perceives* it to be.

You mistakenly think cutting your price won't effect perceived quality. You couldn't be more wrong. Just ask Eric Dybas, the drunk Cubs fan.

The Sox have plenty of cheap fans and you want to draw more of them with 1/2 price nights? Your last name wouldn't be Gallas, would it?

Once again if you were paying attention:

Correction:
cub home avg: 39.6K
Sox home avg: 23.2K

For every 3 SOX fans there are 5 cub fans.
For every 3 $'s the SOX spend on talent, the cub spend's 4 $'s.

So the demand & the quality is lower.
Yet you believe they can sell those seats on quality alone. :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Once again if you were paying attention:

Correction:
cub home avg: 39.6K
Sox home avg: 23.2K

For every 3 SOX fans there are 5 cub fans.
For every 3 $'s the SOX spend on talent, the cub spend's 4 $'s.

So the demand & the quality is lower.
Yet you believe they can sell those seats on quality alone. :D:

This assertion is beyond ridiculous, and if you can't put together a more cogent argument than this I will simply stop debating you.

Attendance is a function of the marketing plan. I guarantee the Sox could "sell" every seat for all 81 dates if they wanted to. They simply would need to lower the price of season tickets to $10. How ****ing stupid do you take the rest of us to be?

You're only revealing yourself more clueless with every new post you make on this subject.

CubKiller5
04-25-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This assertion is beyond ridiculous, and if you can't put together a more cogent argument than this I will simply stop debating you.

Attendance is a function of the marketing plan. I guarantee the Sox could "sell" every seat for all 81 dates if they wanted to. They simply would need to lower the price of season tickets to $10. How ****ing stupid do you take the rest of us to be?

You're only revealing yourself more clueless with every new post you make on this subject.

Apparently you can't read either. No one in this threat made the assertion you just did. Only a bafoon would believe they could sell out all 81 dates on price alone. Of course a mind like yours that actually believes PRICE is simply a function of what the market can bear would probably believe such things.

You continue to show yourself to be a child. The more you ignore a fact the more you think it will cease to be one. Get a clue. I think it would be a good idea for you to stop debating in this thread because you're simply wasting time. Some one who trully believes that attendance is solely a function of a marketing plan is dumb.
And someone who applies that to a weather dependant sport like baseball is dumber.

I surely hope you're good at selling housewares because it's clear as day you are clueless when it comes to selling entertainment events. :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-25-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Apparently you can't read either. No one in this threat made the assertion you just did. Only a bafoon would believe they could sell out all 81 dates on price alone. Of course a mind like yours that actually believes PRICE is simply a function of what the market can bear would probably believe such things.

You continue to show yourself to be a child. The more you ignore a fact the more you think it will cease to be one. Get a clue. I think it would be a good idea for you to stop debating in this thread because you're simply wasting time. Some one who trully believes that attendance is solely a function of a marketing plan is dumb.
And someone who applies that to a weather dependant sport like baseball is dumber.

I surely hope you're good at selling housewares because it's clear as day you are clueless when it comes to selling entertainment events. :D:

I'm glad you managed to ramble for three full paragraphs and never even attempt to address the logical holes blown open in your utterly foolish notions about Sox marketing.

Having read you posts, I expected nothing less of you.

ode to veeck
04-25-2004, 07:29 PM
Cubkiller,

There's several holes in your comments and theories on marketing ... and getting personal isn't helping your case. I'll point out only one of several flaws in your "supply and demand, pricing is everything" discussion:

On brand recognition, Intel only became a widely recognized (by the general public) brand with a large expensive consumer targeted marketing campaign started in early 90s, 10 years after their dominance of PC CPU market share began. Only geeks knew who Intel was before that. Dennis Carter's Intel Inside campaign is a classic case study still used as a "branding" example by the Harvard Business School today. If JR and not Andy Grove had been running Intel, this probably wouda never happened.

My top pics for improving attendance:

(1) Put a winning product on the field, period

(2) Effective Marketing: they HAVE to address the perception problem here and come up with effective marketing. The whole Sox marketing stratey and tactics needs a total revamping. This also includes putting an end to things that just tic their fans off, e.g., price scalping on weekend and cubs games where JR maybe gets marginal revenue gain at the expense of continued negative marketing perception.

(3) Media Exposure: this was a key to their market share losses, from WFLD move in early 70s to repeating the same thing with Sportsvision and missing the superstation opportunity of the 80s. Could it be used to help rebuild expanded Sox fandom? Figure out a way to get lots more Sox games on free local TV, if not on a nationally carried network or channel. If they're on, people will watch (remember watching Autralian Rules Football in early years of ESPN).

DannyCaterFan
04-25-2004, 08:06 PM
The White Sox should work real hard with the Metra people to put a station just west of the park at 35th St. The metra train goes right by the park on it's way downtown and originates from Joliet. There are stops all along the way in growing suburbs like Mokena, Tinley park, etc. With a 35th street exit, many fans could easily get to the Cell without battling the traffic.

JohnBasedowYoda
04-25-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by DannyCaterFan
The White Sox should work real hard with the Metra people to put a station just west of the park at 35th St. The metra train goes right by the park on it's way downtown and originates from Joliet. There are stops all along the way in growing suburbs like Mokena, Tinley park, etc. With a 35th street exit, many fans could easily get to the Cell without battling the traffic.

i dig that big time...or extend the "L" out to the southwest suburbs. like oak lawn, tinely, alsip.

FarWestChicago
04-25-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
On brand recognition, Intel only became a widely recognized (by the general public) brand with a large expensive consumer targeted marketing campaign started in early 90s, 10 years after their dominance of PC CPU market share began. Only geeks knew who Intel was before that. Dennis Carter's Intel Inside campaign is a classic case study still used as a "branding" example by the Harvard Business School today. If JR and not Andy Grove had been running Intel, this probably wouda never happened.What the hell do you know about Intel? I'm sure this other guy knows much more than you. :smile:

TornLabrum
04-25-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
(3) Media Exposure: this was a key to their market share losses, from WFLD move in early 70s to repeating the same thing with Sportsvision and missing the superstation opportunity of the 80s. Could it be used to help rebuild expanded Sox fandom? Figure out a way to get lots more Sox games on free local TV, if not on a nationally carried network or channel. If they're on, people will watch (remember watching Autralian Rules Football in early years of ESPN).

I just checked out the Sox media guide for the first time today. On one page it discusses the new Comcast sports channel. It states that the Sox are going to have the same number of cable vs. broadcast TV games in 2005 as this year. This gives the Cubs a huge edge on free TV once again.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2004, 10:09 PM
Hal:

In this regard there is nothing the Sox can do. WGN is certainly not going to cut down on the number of Cub games they show and won't interupt their 'prime time' lineup. (The reason the Cubs went to Fox Sports Chicago in the first place.)

The other problem is that no other local TV stations in Chicago who are worth a damn (i.e. Channels 2,5,7 or 32) are going to do it either.

So basically the Sox are screwed, they have no place to go with more 'free TV' games. That's one of the problems Chicago has always had as compared to NYC or L.A. In those markets you have many, solid independent stations (and more local channels overall) for options.

In Chicago it's channel 9 (and before they became a Fox affiliate) 32.

If the Sox went to WCIU that would be as good as what they are doing right now because their signal is weak. Oh to bring back WSNS TV44!!!!!

Where's Dick Gonski and Svenghoulie when you need them?

Lip

Whitesox029
04-26-2004, 12:03 AM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward +3

ewokpelts
04-26-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I just checked out the Sox media guide for the first time today. On one page it discusses the new Comcast sports channel. It states that the Sox are going to have the same number of cable vs. broadcast TV games in 2005 as this year. This gives the Cubs a huge edge on free TV once again.
:whocares

ode to veeck
04-26-2004, 10:25 PM
The White Sox should work real hard with the Metra people to put a station just west of the park at 35th St. The metra train goes right by the park on it's way downtown and originates from Joliet. There are stops all along the way in growing suburbs like Mokena, Tinley park, etc. With a 35th street exit, many fans could easily get to the Cell without battling the traffic.

This is not that bad of an idea. I like the idea of making Comiskey more accessible to commuters, if you can figure out how to make it work. Tack on some negative advertising spots showing the competition's $50 parking in dubious sheffield alley ways, talk about "avoid the traffic" and "leave when you want" & it would work as a decent pitch.

Actually, on a map of the Chicago World's Fair, 1933/1934 Century of Progress, the following Illinois Central Stations (predecessor of Metra) are shown: 18th Street, 22nd St., 29th St., 31st St., 35th St. and 39th St. old Illinois Central Electric Line Stops (http://www.faqfarm.com/History/Chicago/197) Of these, only the 18th and 22nd street stations remain today. I don't remember any of the others & I was riding the IC electric as early as mid 60s.

A flag stop used only for baseball and other events at the Cell might not be a bad idea. CalTrain has similar such stops near Stanford in Palo Alto, only used during games. One huge benefit to Giants attendance at the new PacBell park is the CalTrain service that opens up a few millions fans to easy commute game service in the peninsula/santa clara valley corridor

You would probably also have to provide a bus transfer service, similarly, only used during games, as the Metra tracks are like 1.5 miles east of the Cell, and east of IIT I think the neighborhood is still pretty rough.