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View Full Version : Is Guillen to Blame for the Loss?


poorme
04-06-2004, 11:02 AM
Just curious how many people think Guillen is to blame for the opening day fiasco.

cheeses_h_rice
04-06-2004, 11:07 AM
No. I blame this one on Politte and Marte, mostly.

A.T. Money
04-06-2004, 11:08 AM
I vote no. 99 out of 100 times, we win this game. I don't think anyone was prepared for Marte to serve up 2 long balls like that. It was still 7-4 when he got in.

MRKARNO
04-06-2004, 11:10 AM
Koch, not Politte should have started the inning. If a fresh Koch comes on with bases empty and 0 outs, it gives him a chance to show that he can hold a 4 run lead. If he's supposed to be our closer, he should be able to do it. Politte got his successful work in and it was time for him to sit. Putting Koch in would have helped Koch's confidence and everyone's confidence in him

SEALgep
04-06-2004, 11:12 AM
I was actually relieved when he was coming in. Although he did this in ST too, that game we won but Ozzie called "ugly." It's one game, a game I wanted badly, but if the pen can get settled in, than it shouldn't be that bad. Like Ozzie said, get drunk and forget about it, let's win Wednesday.

poorme
04-06-2004, 11:12 AM
OK. I'm glad the rest of you saw the game in the same light as I did.

thepaulbowski
04-06-2004, 11:13 AM
Sox closers can never close the deal on opening day...remember Keith Foulke choking in Seattle. Ozzie could of had Gagne and he would have blown it.

Sad
04-06-2004, 11:21 AM
Koch should have started that inning & ended it :angry:
Politte shouldve never seen the 9th
and he leaves Marte in the game after 2 long ones? :?:

unbelievable...

Clue in Oswald... you're not re-inventing the game of baseball.

anewman35
04-06-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Sad
Koch should have started that inning & ended it :angry:
Politte shouldve never seen the 9th
and he leaves Marte in the game after 2 long ones? :?:

unbelievable...


Did you see last season? Did you see how many games Koch came in and blew?

Anyway, for people who seem to want Koch to be the closer, you realize that we had a 4 run lead, right? If Koch really is the closer, why would he come in during a non-save situtation?

Rooney and Farmer seemed to fully agree with keeping Politte to start the 9th. Not that they're the final word, but it's not as if Ozzie's decision was crazy.

And, um, Ozzie didn't leave Marte in the game after 2 long ones. The game was over after 2 long ones.

poorme
04-06-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Sad

Clue in Oswald... you're not re-inventing the game of baseball.

The only unconventional move he made was leaving Politte in to start the 9th. Perhaps a mistake in hindsight. But when the decision was made, I didn't start ranting and raving, saying "what the hell is he doing ?"

34 Inch Stick
04-06-2004, 11:32 AM
It's the first game of the season. There is an off day tomorrow. It would have been fine for your closer to pitch 1 inning to get his season started.

ode to veeck
04-06-2004, 11:34 AM
toss this one out its a long season, great showing by the offense and by burly-mon, and of couse paulie, the shining start at the plate and on the basepaths

hold2dibber
04-06-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's one game, a game I wanted badly, but if the pen can get settled in, than it shouldn't be that bad.

"If the pen can get settled in" is a big, huge, monumental, massive, towering, enormous "if". The pitching on this team (both in the pen and in the rotation) is paper thin. The whole pitching staff is chock full of "ifs":

"If Buehrle can reverse his trend of getting worse each year"
"If Loaiza can prove he wasn't a one-year fluke"
"If Garland can take a step up"
"If Schoenweiss can figure out a way to be successful as a starter"
"If Wright can be passable at the back end of the rotation"
"If Koch can regain his form"
"If Wunsch can stay healthy"
"If Politte can regain his form"
"If Cotts can keep his mechanics straight"
"If Shingo can make the transition to the majors"

It goes on and on. The only guys I feel reasonably comfortable about are Buehrle and Marte. Everyone else is a crap shoot. And that's no way to start the season, particularly when you have a potent offense and are in a crap division - only a few more reasonably established MLB pitchers would make this team the odds on favorite.

Sigh.

Baby Fisk
04-06-2004, 11:37 AM
Politte starting the 9th was the tragic error that unleashed the mayhem that followed. I still can't get over the image of Ozzie hanging his head as chaos ensued.

Offensively this team rocks, but the bullpen sucks. It's going to cost us many games. :angry:

cheeses_h_rice
04-06-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Sad

and he leaves Marte in the game after 2 long ones? :?:

Marte didn't throw any pitches after the second long one...

:)

Paulwny
04-06-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
"

"If Buehrle can reverse his trend of getting worse each year"
"If Loaiza can prove he wasn't a one-year fluke"
"If Garland can take a step up"
"If Schoenweiss can figure out a way to be successful as a starter"
"If Wright can be passable at the back end of the rotation"
"If Koch can regain his form"
"If Wunsch can stay healthy"
"If Politte can regain his form"
"If Cotts can keep his mechanics straight"
"If Shingo can make the transition to the majors"



Agree, this staff is very iffy.

mantis1212
04-06-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Sad
Koch should have started that inning & ended it :angry:
Politte shouldve never seen the 9th
and he leaves Marte in the game after 2 long ones? :?:

unbelievable...

Clue in Oswald... you're not re-inventing the game of baseball.

Actually, the game was over after two long ones. He left Marte in after one long one...
Ozzie did exactly as he should have, the end of the game was just very bad luck. Marte was/is our best reliever, he should be our closer.

habibharu
04-06-2004, 12:10 PM
this should tell you how i voted: :fireozzie

CubKilla
04-06-2004, 12:20 PM
The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of the BP for this one. The only questionable move/no-move Ozzie made was keeping in Politte too long. Outside of that, I liked what I saw out of Ozzie yesterday. I think we had more RH hitters situational hitting to RF in yesterday's game than we had all season last year. Konerko stole a base in an unsuccessful hit-and-run attempt. Alomar pulled off a hit-and-run with Rowand running on the first pitch.

But this BP is a sham and will be revealed as such each and every game they are put out there. Ozzie's in a Catch 22 with what JR and KW have given him.

starboy0
04-06-2004, 12:40 PM
I don't blame Ozzie for that game.

Although I do think Koch should have started the ninth. But of course this is in retrospect...Politte was in charge until the ninth.

The umpire was really squeezing Damaso I thought. I thought he had two balls that could have been easily called a strike. So he has to come in.

But he had nothing on the ball.

It was just a day when Polittle got too careful in the ninth and didn't go after the batters and Damaso had terrible stuff.

99 times out of 100 we win that game but I'm still one down dog after that loss.

SSN721
04-06-2004, 01:13 PM
I think you have to blame Marte, Ozzie cant go out there and pitch himself. I thought the decision to leave Politte in was a little questionable but not unreasonable, all his other decisions I was fine with. I blame the bullpen. Marte is supposed to be our money pitcher and he wasnt yesterday, no good way for Ozzie to know that until it is too late.

Hangar18
04-06-2004, 01:23 PM
If the SOX lose another game like this ....... then we blame Ozz

poorme
04-06-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
If the SOX lose another game like this ....... then we blame Ozz

Why? What can he do?

steff
04-06-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Sad
and he leaves Marte in the game after 2 long ones? :?:

unbelievable...




Psstt... the game was over after the second one. :D:





Edited to add... 4th times a charm. :)

JC456
04-06-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
If the SOX lose another game like this ....... then we blame Ozz

Well you've been looking for the Sox to get press. I think they found it after yesterday's loss. It was everywhere right after the game and into the evening. Now I bet you can't wait for them to stop talking about yesterday's loss because I know I am.

There is nothing different about the way this team lost yesterday compared to last year. I blame Ozzie for not pulling Marte after the 1st dinger. There is no way Marte should have been left in to face a righty. I quess the manager of the Sox is destined to be inexperienced. Fans pay good money to expect more from the manager of a team than not to be prepared, and like Manuel last year, Ozzie was not prepared.

You don't just sit and wait for victory if you're a good manager.

npdempse
04-06-2004, 02:15 PM
I originally voted no, but now I'm not so sure.

With one out, and first base open, and being scared of Big (and I mean, Big) Bad Matt Stairs up to bat, why not walk the somebitch and let Billygoat keep pitching?

CubKilla
04-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
With one out, and first base open, and being scared of Big (and I mean, Big) Bad Matt Stairs up to bat, why not walk the somebitch and let Billygoat keep pitching?

Cause then you'd lose after Botch serves up the walk-off GS :D:

jeremyb1
04-06-2004, 02:21 PM
I'd love an explanation for how you can blame Guillen for failing to start Koch in the 9th because he's the closer when it WASN'T A SAVE SITUATION. We were up by four runs. That's a lot. This isn't the type of game you make sure to bring your closer into to lock down.

Dub25
04-06-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Did you see last season? Did you see how many games Koch came in and blew?

Anyway, for people who seem to want Koch to be the closer, you realize that we had a 4 run lead, right? If Koch really is the closer, why would he come in during a non-save situtation?

Rooney and Farmer seemed to fully agree with keeping Politte to start the 9th. Not that they're the final word, but it's not as if Ozzie's decision was crazy.

And, um, Ozzie didn't leave Marte in the game after 2 long ones. The game was over after 2 long ones.

It was a save situation when he came in. 2 runners on nobody out with a 4 run lead. He was facing the potential tying run if he had stayed in.

Paulwny
04-06-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
I originally voted no, but now I'm not so sure.

With one out, and first base open, and being scared of Big (and I mean, Big) Bad Matt Stairs up to bat, why not walk the somebitch and let Billygoat keep pitching?

The Book says, you never put the tieing or winning run on base. Oz is playing by the book.

poorme
04-06-2004, 02:26 PM
Which matchup do you prefer?

koch, 878 OPS vs. lefties last year
vs.
stairs, .984 OPS vs. righties last year

OR

marte, .594 OPS vs. righties last year
vs.
lopez, a 30 year old journeyman with 6 career homers in 385 ABs and a lifetime .679 OPS

Iguana775
04-06-2004, 02:27 PM
who really freaking cares who is to blame....they lost but at least they didnt look like they were dead out there like with JM. Marte will get those outs more time than not. it's the 1st game. let's at least way a month before blaming every one.

Paulwny
04-06-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Which matchup do you prefer?

koch, 878 OPS vs. lefties last year
vs.
stairs, .984 OPS vs. righties last year

OR

marte, .594 OPS vs. righties last year

lopez, a 30 year old journeyman with 6 career homers in 385 ABs and a lifetime .679 OPS


It's difficult to tell who you're replying to if you don't use the quote button.

poorme
04-06-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
It's difficult to tell who you're replying to if you don't use the quote button.

I'm not necessarily replying to anyone in particular. If I only wanted one person to read it, I would have sent a private message.

hold2dibber
04-06-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Which matchup do you prefer?

koch, 878 OPS vs. lefties last year
vs.
stairs, .984 OPS vs. righties last year

OR

marte, .594 OPS vs. righties last year

lopez, a 30 year old journeyman with 6 career homers in 385 ABs and a lifetime .679 OPS

B-I-N-G-O.

Thank you - leaving in Koch to face Stairs instead of bringing in Marte would have been lunacy. Marte got hamered, but he was the right guy to put in in those circumstances. His performance is his fault, not Ozzie's. It's a rough start to the season, but anyone who blames Ozzie is nuts.

petekat
04-06-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Well you've been looking for the Sox to get press. I think they found it after yesterday's loss. It was everywhere right after the game and into the evening. Now I bet you can't wait for them to stop talking about yesterday's loss because I know I am.

There is nothing different about the way this team lost yesterday compared to last year. I blame Ozzie for not pulling Marte after the 1st dinger. There is no way Marte should have been left in to face a righty. I quess the manager of the Sox is destined to be inexperienced. Fans pay good money to expect more from the manager of a team than not to be prepared, and like Manuel last year, Ozzie was not prepared.

You don't just sit and wait for victory if you're a good manager.


and replace him with who? Schoenweis? If he had brought Koch in earlier and he blew it, people would be whining about Politte doing well- keep him out there. If he had brought Marte to start the ninth and he got lit up- people would say where's Koch, isnt he our closer. If he hadnt brought in Marte, and Koch got hung with the loss, people would be screaming in. Ozzie's did a textbook thing, a smart manager would rather face Mendy Lopez 9 out of 10 times than Matt Stairs. Marte didnt have it yesterday. End of story. Wake me in a few weeks once a pattern forms...

stillz
04-06-2004, 04:07 PM
Even in defeat, it was a sound move to put in Marte, but running Politte out for the 9th?? Why? One and a third innings of work is plenty on Opening Day. Why not bring out Koch to get some confidence specifically because it was a non-save situation.

Oh well - the offense looked pretty sharp and Konerko stole a bag. Just wait to they all click at the dish.

southsidegirl
04-06-2004, 08:01 PM
I don't agree with Guillen starting the inning with Politte, but I think that he isn't to blame. Our bullpen should be able to not blow games like this, no matter how sucky it is.

Railsplitter
04-06-2004, 10:48 PM
Guillen didn't walk those batters or throw those fat pitches.

Sad
04-07-2004, 08:50 AM
yeah I guess youre right one that one Cheeses
the 2nd longball ended it.... DUH :(:

managers don't win em but they sure can lose em.

go get em today

CubKiller5
04-07-2004, 01:14 PM
Gamelog from ESPN.com:

KANSAS CITY 9TH
-Bottom of the 9th inning
-J Randa walked.
-J Randa to second on passed ball by S Alomar Jr.
-K Harvey walked.
-B Koch relieved C Politte.
-B Santiago doubled to deep left, J Randa scored, K Harvey to third.
-A Guiel struck out swinging.
-M Stairs hit for T Graffanino.
-D Marte relieved B Koch.
-M Lopez hit for M Stairs.
-M Lopez homered to center, K Harvey and B Santiago scored.
-A Berroa singled to left.
-C Beltran homered to left, A Berroa scored.

6 runs, 4 hits, 0 errors
Chicago Sox 7, Kansas City 9


Politte in the 9th?
No. Randa was 1 for 2 before the walk. Same with Adkins.
He's 5 for 9 vs Koch.
That leaves Tats, Cotts, Jackson, & Marte.
He's never faced Tats, Cotts & he's 0 for 3 vs Marte, 2 for 10 vs Jackson.

Mistake #1.

Harvey vs Politte?
He had never faced him. He's 2 for 3 vs Koch, Marte, & 1 for 2 vs Adkins. Never faced the others.

Mistake #2.

I've always felt that when a batter has never faced a pitcher the advantage goes to the pitcher. So in that respect starting the 9th with Tats, Cotts, or Jackson would have been better odds.

Santiago vs Koch?
He was 0 for 3 vs Koch, & 1 for 12 vs Jackson.

Pick one. No Mistake here. But considering Jackson would have been better odds against Randa, Harvey it certainly looks like he should have started the 9th.

A Guiel vs Koch?
1 for 5 vs Koch. This kid doesn't have much success against any SOX pitchers. No mistake here. Never faced Jackson.

M Stairs vs Marte?
He was 1 for 3 vs Koch, & 1 for 5 vs Jackson, & never faced Marte.
Koch is facing a 1 out, ron, 3 with a slow runner at 3rd.

Mistake #3.

This is a pick-em but I'm going to call it a mistake because Koch had just had a momentum lifting strike out & giving up an rbi double to an all-star catcher.

Lopez vs Marte?
Complete crap-shoot. No real history.

Berroa vs Marte?

Mistake #4.

Huge mistake. He was 2 for 4 vs Marte with big hits.
He was 0 for 2 vs Adkins, & never faced Tats, Cotts, or Jackson.

Beltran vs Marte?

Mistake #5.

Huge mistake. He was 2 for 4 vs Marte with big hits.
He was 1 for 4 vs Jackson, & never faced Tats, Cotts.

I'm sorry but with 5 mistakes in the 9th I have to pin this loss
on Ozzie. We knew coming in to this season that the SOX did not have a well-established closer this year & it would be a group effort.
Ozzie should have managed the bullpen to give the SOX the best odds to close the 9th. He didn't do that.

anewman35
04-07-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5


I'm sorry but with 5 mistakes in the 9th I have to pin this loss
on Ozzie. We knew coming in to this season that the SOX did not have a well-established closer this year & it would be a group effort.
Ozzie should have managed the bullpen to give the SOX the best odds to close the 9th. He didn't do that.

I hope this post is a joke. You can't possibly manage a game based on what people have done in a couple of at-bats against each pitcher. I'd say that anything under 10 at-bats makes stats like this almost completly meaningless, and maybe that number should be even higher - the fact that a person is 1 for 2 or 2 for 4 or something against one particular pitcher means almost nothing towards the future. If a guy is 300 out of 400, sure, that's a horrible matchup. But 5 at-bats? Give me a break.

sas1974
04-07-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5

Lopez vs Marte?
Complete crap-shoot. No real history.


For what it's worth from KC Website:

But Lopez knew Marte very well. They faced each other many times in winter ball.

Pena huddled with bench coach Bob Schaefer.

"Mendy has seen this guy so many times," Pena decided. "It's a better idea than Stairs."

So Lopez popped out of the dugout and belted a 420-foot, three-run homer for a 7-7 tie. Then Carlos Beltran followed Angel Berroa's single with a game-winning homer.

"You know, I was joking around with Marte before the game during batting practice," Lopez recalled. "And I told him, 'You know what? I'm going to take you deep today.' Not to be cocky -- Marte is a great pitcher -- but I was just kidding and look what happened."

Had he ever hit a homer off Marte before?

"No, not even close," Lopez said.

SEALgep
04-07-2004, 01:30 PM
Guillen should have known Marte was going to pitch two fastballs down the middle.

steff
04-07-2004, 01:34 PM
Any takers on how long this will go on...?? :D:

Baby Fisk
04-07-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by steff
Any takers on how long this will go on...?? :D:
Until about 1:10pm Central time today, when there will be a whole new bunch of decisions to get into hysterics over! :D:

Mohoney
04-07-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Sox closers can never close the deal on opening day...remember Keith Foulke choking in Seattle. Ozzie could of had Gagne and he would have blown it.

Ozzie was scared to death of "Babe" Stairs. He made a stupid move bringing Marte out to face him.

Manuel did the same exact thing at Wrigley last year. Colon was winning 1-0, and threw his warmups before the 9th inning started. Then Baker announced Troy O' Leary as the pinch hitter, knowing full well that his buddy Manuel would be stupid enough to remove Colon (and his shutout) from the game.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the day I'm scared to death of mediocre journeymen like Troy O' Leary and Matt Stairs is the day I should quit overmanaging.

It's overmanagement, pure and simple. Ozzie's fault all the way.

MisterB
04-07-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
For what it's worth from KC Website:

Which just goes to show that no matter how much we Monday morning quarterbacks like to analyze, the guys in the dugout have more facts than we do.

To quote Jim Mora: "You think you know, but you don't know. And you never will."

sas1974
04-07-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Which just goes to show that no matter how much we Monday morning quarterbacks like to analyze, the guys in the dugout have more facts than we do.

To quote Jim Mora: "You think you know, but you don't know. And you never will."

No doubt! There is a reason those guys have the jobs that they have while we are sitting here typing about it.

CubKiller5
04-07-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I hope this post is a joke. You can't possibly manage a game based on what people have done in a couple of at-bats against each pitcher. I'd say that anything under 10 at-bats makes stats like this almost completly meaningless, and maybe that number should be even higher - the fact that a person is 1 for 2 or 2 for 4 or something against one particular pitcher means almost nothing towards the future. If a guy is 300 out of 400, sure, that's a horrible matchup. But 5 at-bats? Give me a break.

You have to base a decision on something, & in the absence of any real history against a lineup you have to use what you have.

We can add to these facts:
1) Koch was more reliable in ST than Marte
2) Cotts had a better ST than both Koch, & Marte.

No matter how you want to look at it, starting the 9th off with Politte was a big mistake. How about 2 yrs worth of stats that say Politte sucks once he gets near the 30 pitch limit?