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View Full Version : Plain and simple...we need Wright and Show in the bullpen


SoxxoS
04-06-2004, 12:21 AM
That would solve a lot of problems. It gives us a righty and lefty options, that for the most part, are PROVEN assets out of the bullpen. I was happy with the way Guillen handled the staff, other than leaving in Politte in one batter too long. Marte was our best bullpen pitcher last year, so you have to bring him in. You also, unfortunately, have to have a quick hook on Koch they way he has looked since he started.

This is not a knee jerk reaction after one game...this is seeing that we don't have a true closer on the team. If we did, Guillen wouldn't even think of taking Koch out, even after the double.

That being said, who is going to take spots 4 and 5 in the rotation?

Right now it's got to be Rauch and Cotts. Show and Wright are greater assets out of the pen than as starters anyway. The addition of Show and Wright to the bullpen is a greater positive, IMO, than the possible "negative" of replacing them in the rotation with Cotts and Rauch.

We need more options in the pen, especially if Takatsu is a flop...which all signs point to. If Marte is hurt, I am going to throw up.

Jjav829
04-06-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That would solve a lot of problems. It gives us a righty and lefty options, that for the most part, are PROVEN assets out of the bullpen. I was happy with the way Guillen handled the staff, other than leaving in Politte in one batter too long. Marte was our best bullpen pitcher last year, so you have to bring him in. You also, unfortunately, have to have a quick hook on Koch they way he has looked since he started.

This is not a knee jerk reaction after one game...this is seeing that we don't have a true closer on the team. If we did, Guillen wouldn't even think of taking Koch out, even after the double.

That being said, who is going to take spots 4 and 5 in the rotation?

Right now it's got to be Rauch and Cotts. Show and Wright are greater assets out of the pen than as starters anyway. The addition of Show and Wright to the bullpen is a greater positive, IMO, than the possible "negative" of replacing them in the rotation with Cotts and Rauch.

We need more options in the pen, especially if Takatsu is a flop...which all signs point to. If Marte is hurt, I am going to throw up.

1999- 31 saves
2000- 33 saves
2001- 36 saves
2002- 44 saves

What are these the numbers of then, a righty specialist? Don't have a true closer my ass. There are few "true closers" then by your definition. Maybe a half dozen in all of baseball. How does putting our #4 and #5 starters in the pen make up for the lack of a "true closer?" I hardly see how Wright and Schoenweis are the answers to all our bullpen needs. They would replace Adkins and Cotts. I didn't see Adkins or Cotts blow yesterday's game.

Shingo has to be given a chance and soon. Let's see what we have with this guy. I don't want to hide him in the pen like so many seem to be advocating. If the guy is going to be bad, then let's find that out within the first month or so so that we can cut bait and get rid of him if needed.

Stoky44
04-06-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If Marte is hurt, I am going to throw up.

This is going to sound bad, but I hope Marte is a little hurt. If not then I am going to throw up, becuase he had no power or movement on his pitches.

SoxxoS
04-06-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
1999- 31 saves
2000- 33 saves
2001- 36 saves
2002- 44 saves

What are these the numbers of then, a righty specialist? Don't have a true closer my ass. There are few "true closers" then by your definition. Maybe a half dozen in all of baseball. How does putting our #4 and #5 starters in the pen make up for the lack of a "true closer?" I hardly see how Wright and Schoenweis are the answers to all our bullpen needs. They would replace Adkins and Cotts. I didn't see Adkins or Cotts blow yesterday's game.

Shingo has to be given a chance and soon. Let's see what we have with this guy. I don't want to hide him in the pen like so many seem to be advocating. If the guy is going to be bad, then let's find that out within the first month or so so that we can cut bait and get rid of him if needed.

I think those are Koch's save totals...which would be absolutely hilarious if you thought that means anything. Brady Anderson hit 50 homers in 1994...Past success doesn't equal future performance. In Koch's case I know it doesn't b/c
a)He hasn't proved anything since he put on a Sox uni, other than a few saves at the beginning of last year against Detroit.
b)He lost his most important asset, speed, on the radar gun.

It must be that great spring he had after that time off to get his act together. No, afraid that isn't the case, as he got lit up this spring as well.

Second, if Koch was truly a closer, there is no way he would Ozzie would have that quick of hook with him. Do you think Nenn, Percival, Rivera, Gagne, Foulke, Sasaki, Guardado, Wagner et al., would have got the hook after MATT STAIRS was called to pinch hit. ABSOLUTLEY NOT.

That is all you need to know as to why Billy Koch isn't a true closer.

And as for the Cotts/Adkins comment...that has nothing to do with anything. Adkins made the team b/c Wunsch is hurt, and he isn't going to throw Cotts into the fire this quickly, with no bullpen experience. Maybe if Show and Wright were in the pen, where they belong, Ozzie would have went to them at a certain point...maybe to start the ninth inning. Nobody knows.

Jjav829
04-06-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I think those are Koch's save totals...which would be absolutely hilarious if you thought that means anything. Brady Anderson hit 50 homers in 1994...Past success doesn't equal future performance. In Koch's case I know it doesn't b/c
a)He hasn't proved anything since he put on a Sox uni, other than a few saves at the beginning of last year against Detroit.
b)He lost his most important asset, speed, on the radar gun.

It must be that great spring he had after that time off to get his act together. No, afraid that isn't the case, as he got lit up this spring as well.

Second, if Koch was truly a closer, there is no way he would Ozzie would have that quick of hook with him. Do you think Nenn, Percival, Rivera, Gagne, Foulke, Sasaki, Guardado, Wagner et al., would have got the hook after MATT STAIRS was called to pinch hit. ABSOLUTLEY NOT.

That is all you need to know as to why Billy Koch isn't a true closer.

And as for the Cotts/Adkins comment...that has nothing to do with anything. Adkins made the team b/c Wunsch is hurt, and he isn't going to throw Cotts into the fire this quickly, with no bullpen experience. Maybe if Show and Wright were in the pen, where they belong, Ozzie would have went to them at a certain point...maybe to start the ninth inning. Nobody knows.

I mentioned those numbers because I am curious what a "true closer" is. Certainly someone who has had the ability to rack up 30+ saves 4 times must have something there to make him a closer. No it doesn't signify how good of a closer is, but he must have something that allows him to close. Sasaki is in Japan. Guardado is a lefty. Everyone else you mentioned, plus Smoltz, are about the only guys I would consider "true closers". Plus, how many of the teams with those guys have a lefty in their pen that did what Marte did last year in terms of setting up and closing. None. So there would be no reason to pull them.

If you don't trust Schoenweis and Wright to start, why do you want them in any close game? Wouldn't you rather have them doing mopup duty only? Why put them in any pressure situation. Face it, putting Wright and Schoenweis in the pen would not have made this outcome any different. Ozzie stayed with Politte because Politte was pitching well, not because he didn't trust anyone else. Had he pulled Politte it would have been Koch, not Adkins or Cotts or Wright or Schoenweis, pitching.

SoxxoS
04-06-2004, 10:10 AM
I am not talking about this outcome, I am talking about in the future.

I can name 25 closers I would rather have that Koch. That includes Borowski, Isringhausen, Benitez, McDougal...pretty much everyone in the majors.

SEALgep
04-06-2004, 10:15 AM
The sad thing is, I betcha Adkins would have gotten the job done, and he barely made the team. Relievers are like pinch hitters in the sense, you have to go with the hot hand. Adkins, although many may disagree, was the hottest relief pitcher we had with the exception Politte.

jabrch
04-06-2004, 02:44 PM
If you move them to the pen, we have nobody to start. Grilli and Adkins? I'd rather take my chances that Koch/Marte/Politte just had a bad day and that this won't happen too often.

SoxxoS
04-06-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
If you move them to the pen, we have nobody to start. Grilli and Adkins? I'd rather take my chances that Koch/Marte/Politte just had a bad day and that this won't happen too often.

Not Grilli and Adkins...Rauch and Cotts.

Mickster
04-06-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The sad thing is, I betcha Adkins would have gotten the job done, and he barely made the team. Relievers are like pinch hitters in the sense, you have to go with the hot hand. Adkins, although many may disagree, was the hottest relief pitcher we had with the exception Politte.

I can't believe I am saying this but.... I AGREE WITH SEAL. **there, I said it!**

Seriously, Adkins might have been a good move out of the pen yesterday. Hindsight is 20/20, I guess... :?:

batmanZoSo
04-06-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That would solve a lot of problems. It gives us a righty and lefty options, that for the most part, are PROVEN assets out of the bullpen. I was happy with the way Guillen handled the staff, other than leaving in Politte in one batter too long. Marte was our best bullpen pitcher last year, so you have to bring him in. You also, unfortunately, have to have a quick hook on Koch they way he has looked since he started.

This is not a knee jerk reaction after one game...this is seeing that we don't have a true closer on the team. If we did, Guillen wouldn't even think of taking Koch out, even after the double.

That being said, who is going to take spots 4 and 5 in the rotation?

Right now it's got to be Rauch and Cotts. Show and Wright are greater assets out of the pen than as starters anyway. The addition of Show and Wright to the bullpen is a greater positive, IMO, than the possible "negative" of replacing them in the rotation with Cotts and Rauch.

We need more options in the pen, especially if Takatsu is a flop...which all signs point to. If Marte is hurt, I am going to throw up.

I agree the Wright should be in the bullpen. And he would make a pretty good versatlie reliever. I could see him as a setup man or one of those guys that can come in a blowout and hold the game down for three innings and get a win. He has a different mindset when he's coming out of the pen. Right now, there's no one to replace him in the rotation though. And if he has success in the 5th spot you gotta leave him there...

SoxxoS
04-06-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I agree the Wright should be in the bullpen. And he would make a pretty good versatlie reliever. I could see him as a setup man or one of those guys that can come in a blowout and hold the game down for three innings and get a win. He has a different mindset when he's coming out of the pen. Right now, there's no one to replace him in the rotation though. And if he has success in the 5th spot you gotta leave him there...

You don't agree that Show should be in the bullpen. He is actually pretty good coming out of the pen...he has proved that. So has Wright.

Basically it's a cost benefit...

I think the Benefit of those 2 guys moving to the bullpen will outweigh the cost of replacing them in the rotation with Cotts and Rauch.

batmanZoSo
04-06-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
You don't agree that Show should be in the bullpen. He is actually pretty good coming out of the pen...he has proved that. So has Wright.

Basically it's a cost benefit...

I think the Benefit of those 2 guys moving to the bullpen will outweigh the cost of replacing them in the rotation with Cotts and Rauch.

I don't "not agree" about Schoney, I just didn't bring him up.

I don't know if I buy into your theory there. It makes sense logically, but it's predicated on Cotts and Rauch being worthy major league pitchers right now. Wright and Schoeneweis can be bad, but with the other two you're talkin REAL bad. They couldn't even get outs when they were called up in the past. Rauch had some success, but Cotts had none. Maybe it's worth a try, but it's no solution yet.