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owensmouth
04-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Why are so many people all over Koch for today's loss.

He gave up a double on a good pitch. Then he struck out the next batter. Koch at his best was never a 1 - 2 - 3 pitcher. It's just at the end of the day, his team won the game.

What killed the Sox were three walks in the nineth, followed by two home runs, As a matter of fact, even if Koch had gotten both hitters out, the results would have been exactly the same.

If I were Ozzie, I probably would have made the same mistake, I would have let Politte start the nineth. Then I would have told Koch to finish it and would have gone to the dugout and sweated.

So what can you say about the White Sox today? Our guys did well. Konerko, Sandy, Frank, Carlos, heck all the position players did well. Can't say anything bad about MB. And Politte did well thru the eighth.

Wednesday, we get even.

CWSGuy406
04-05-2004, 07:26 PM
Good post. Koch was up to 96, 97 on the gun, and had his breaking stuff going pretty well for opening day. Marte blew it, plain and simple.

SoxBoy14
04-05-2004, 07:33 PM
Pollite's first pitch was 99! That shows he's capable of being a colser. Koch had a decent pitching game as well. It was Marte who really hurt us. He's been injured though, so don't worry by the looks of our offense we still have a bright future.

jabrch
04-05-2004, 07:35 PM
Agreed - this falls squarely on Marte's shoulders. He had a bad outing.

davidleeroth
04-05-2004, 07:35 PM
the most impressive thing about koch today (i know, there weren't many) was that his fastball had a ton of movement even at 93 mph. politte, who threw 99 a grand total of once, had no movement whatsoever on his fastball.

santo=dorf
04-05-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Agreed - this falls squarely on Marte's shoulders. He had a bad outing.

Guillen should've pulled Politte after the first walk. That ump was a little sketchy too.

kbriley
04-05-2004, 07:58 PM
I agree with this post. I would have done exactly what Ozzie did. Its just a tough loss and Marte is to blame.

MHOUSE
04-05-2004, 07:59 PM
Buehrle pitched awesome and got out of trouble more than once. Politte was good through the 8th and then he wore down. He's a one-inning pitcher and he had all ready pitched in the 7th (1/3) and the whole 8th so working into a third inning was a lot to ask I thought. Marte has always been bad when he inherits runners. He seems to be lights-out when he starts and ends an inning, even two innings. The offense was very good, especially Paulie!

kittle545feet
04-05-2004, 08:02 PM
i don't think politte should have started the 9th but i do know he should not have faced a second batter. you walk the leadoff man in the 9th and its time for the showers. marte had nothing today. his ball looked flat like batting practice pitching. this one hurts! :whiner:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-05-2004, 08:03 PM
Okay, how long before one of the pundits blames it on the "light" Arizona air?

:?:

soxwon
04-05-2004, 08:13 PM
partially i blame guillen, politte is a 1 inning pitcher, never should have started the ninth.
koch pitched ok- marte got murdered.

blame guiilen pt 2
koch should have stayed in one more hitter.

get em wednesday.

SoxFan76
04-05-2004, 08:14 PM
I guess you just have to remember the offense. They did a fantastic job today. All those guys getting their first hits of the season is big. I am very happy with that offense, and that hit and run with Rowand and Sandy was great to see. If they keep that up, the pitching will come around. Buerhle also did a great job.

Daver
04-05-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, how long before one of the pundits blames it on the "light" Arizona air?

:?:


No,no,no

It is the "light" KC air,which is due to the high level of methane gas brought on from the multitude of cattle pens......

SoxxoS
04-05-2004, 08:16 PM
I would bet that gun is about 3 mph fast...

White_Sock
04-05-2004, 08:23 PM
Koch still started the season off with a 27.0 era. This can't be good for the old confidence.

santo=dorf
04-05-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by White_Sock
Koch still started the season off with a 27.0 era. This can't be good for the old confidence.

At least his ERA is a finite number.

A. Cavatica
04-05-2004, 08:32 PM
It's a long season.
It seemed to me like our intensity let up late in the game, both on offense and defense. We didn't put them away; that's Guillen's fault.

As for strategy, Ozzie made a number of mistakes. Some bit him, some didn't.

He had Valentin batting high and Rowand low against the lefty, though Rowand kills lefties and Valentin's terrible, even now that Jose's abandoned switch-hitting.

He had PK steal a base. Yes, he made it, but it was a completely reckless move that won't work again. It also showed up KC and may have contributed to their ninth inning rally.

He mismanaged the pen. To be fair, I probably couldn't have managed it any better, but the results were disastrous and Ozzie has to bear the blame. Politte should've been pulled at the start of the ninth, or at least before completing the second walk. Koch should never have been let into the game; I would've gone to Jackson. Marte didn't pitch well this spring and maybe Ozzie should've used Schoeneweis to get the lefty-lefty matchup, especially with all SS's strikeouts, then come back with a righty.

One game is just one game, but how Ozzie handles this defeat is his defining moment. Once KC got runners on in the ninth, the Sox choked. Manuel would've let them slide; Ozzie must not. And I'd like to see a couple of KC batters knocked down tomorrow.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-05-2004, 08:33 PM
I'm guessing somebody down in Orland Park is having a good laugh.

:jerry
"Hahahahaha!"

:hitless
"Milwaukee, too. Hahahahaha!"

:ohno
"Go get some ice cream, losers."

santo=dorf
04-05-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm guessing somebody down in Orland Park is having a good laugh.
:hitless
"Milwaukee, too. Hahahahaha!"

George, he's in Colorado now where the thin air will help boost his BA to .255.

duke of dorwood
04-05-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm guessing somebody down in Orland Park is having a good laugh.

:jerry
"Hahahahaha!"

:hitless
"Milwaukee, too. Hahahahaha!"

:ohno
"Go get some ice cream, losers."

He moved to California last November

PaleHoseGeorge
04-05-2004, 08:58 PM
Thanks for all the corrections... sheesh, just a lame attempt at humor.

:smile:

:hitless
"Listen Bozo, everybody in the Colorado clubhouse wears sneakers, even in the dugout. We send 2-3 pinch hitters into games wearing their PF Flyers every damned day. So just bite me!"

jeremyb1
04-05-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by davidleeroth
the most impressive thing about koch today (i know, there weren't many) was that his fastball had a ton of movement even at 93 mph. politte, who threw 99 a grand total of once, had no movement whatsoever on his fastball.

I disagree. I thought Politte's fastball had good movement. Some of his pitches in the 9th looked like they would've been strikes but moved out of the zone.

JRIG
04-05-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I disagree. I thought Politte's fastball had good movement. Some of his pitches in the 9th looked like they would've been strikes but moved out of the zone.

I thought that gun today was extremely fast. Politte was hitting 98 consisently, which I don't think he's capable of. Koch was reading 96 and Buehrle was at 92. Seems about 3 mph fast on all of those guys IMO.

Stoky44
04-06-2004, 01:08 AM
You know after watching the game I knew when I came on here I would see many people blaming Koch. And I think that is absolute BS. You people who say the loss is Koch's fault are... I hate to judge here but I am stating the truth, you are a bunch of idiots. Those of you who blame the loss of Koch are not rational thinkers. You are set in your ways, your principle: Koch had a bad year last year so he sucks. My first problem with that is how is that we can say a player is bad after one year when his previous years were damn good. Koch is not great, and he did have a bad last season, but this is a new season. You people who blame Koch are set in your way of thinking, and won't change your thinking even if the facts say to do so. You would rather bend the facts to meet your set principle, then to, dare I say, change your principle to go along with the facts. The facts are that Koch faced two guys. He pitched well, he threw some good stuff. The Santiago hit was just a good hit. He hit a tough pitch, he didn't hit it really hard, he just got some wood on the ball and it stayed fair. Then Koch got the next guy out. But we look past the two walks in the start of the inning and wouldn't dare blame Marte, oh thats right you probably have the principle Marte can't do wrong, so bend the facts to meet that principle. If the roles were switched and Marte gave up one hit and got an out, while Koch gave up the two homers I guarantee that you who blame Koch now would still blame Koch.

How can you blame Koch when only one of the 6 runs were his? He didn't give up the two homers.

I think Marte is a good pitcher, and I have faith that Koch is going to do better this season. But it is a new season and everyone has a clean slate. And so far: Koch did OK and Marte is doing very very bad.

Hangar18
04-06-2004, 01:15 AM
I blame KOCH. He had a chance to get 3 straight outs, but he couldnt do it. The Double he gave up, still got too much of the plate, his pitch was nice and straight. However, I wont completely blame him. Yes, Politte forgot how to pitch and walked the 2 batters to start the Fiasco. KOCH simply SHouldnt have been Trusted to be in this position, but Jerry Manu....er OZZY put him out there. To his Credit, OZZ saw enough, and Yanked him, but Marte just didnt pitch well, actually he sucked too. Koch and Politte needed to step up and they DIDNT. His Strikeout was Lucky.
Sure, it was in a good Location, and who is to say Alomar knew he had Junk and the only way he was getting Guile out was to throw Junk Inside and it Guile couldnt check his swing. What Im mad about, is this bs happened last year, each pitcher making it Harder on the Next Pitcher, and bad things happen.
Ive seen way too much of this clown. Bring him in with noone on, and either us losing badly, or Winning Big and get him on track that way ...................

pearso66
04-06-2004, 01:16 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Stoky44
04-06-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I blame KOCH. He had a chance to get 3 straight outs, but he couldnt do it. The Double he gave up, still got too much of the plate, his pitch was nice and straight. However, I wont completely blame him. Yes, Politte forgot how to pitch and walked the 2 batters to start the Fiasco. KOCH simply SHouldnt have been Trusted to be in this position, but Jerry Manu....er OZZY put him out there. To his Credit, OZZ saw enough, and Yanked him, but Marte just didnt pitch well. Koch and Politte needed to step up and they DIDNT. His Strikeout was Lucky.
Sure, it was in a good Location, and who is to say Alomar knew he had Junk and the only way he was getting Guile out was to throw Junk Inside and it Guile couldnt check his swing. Ive seen way too much of this clown. Bring him in with noone on,
and either us losing badly, or Winning Big and get him on track that way ...................

My question: who pitched the worst in the 9th inning:
a.) Politte
b.) Koch
c.) Marte

pearso66
04-06-2004, 01:21 AM
definitally Marte, I don't see any other way to answer it. Koch didn't do bad, and Politte should have been pulled after the first walk. But that being said, if Ozzie was that quick to pull Koch, he should have pulled Marte after the homer, or at least after the single after the homer.

Jjav829
04-06-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
My question: who pitched the worst in the 9th inning:
a.) Politte
b.) Koch
c.) Marte

Marte, Politte, Koch. In that order. I still fail to see how anyone can blame Koch. He pitched well in his only 2 batters. He was the only one to record an out! I love hearing this "Koch never should have been in there" stuff. Then who do you bring in? It's not like Koch blew it and Marte was never brought in where we could debate whether Marte should have been in the game. Marte blew it! He sucked! He wasn't anywhere near the level he was at last year at any point in any at-bat. I only wish Pena never pinch hit Stairs because had Koch stayed in the game, we may have won it.

Jjav829
04-06-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by pearso66
definitally Marte, I don't see any other way to answer it. Koch didn't do bad, and Politte should have been pulled after the first walk. But that being said, if Ozzie was that quick to pull Koch, he should have pulled Marte after the homer, or at least after the single after the homer.

He yanked Koch because Pena pinch hit the lefty who mashes righties, Matt Stairs. Marte had been warming and was ready. It seemed like the obvious move. It didn't work out because Marte was awful.

chisox06
04-06-2004, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I blame KOCH. He had a chance to get 3 straight outs, but he couldnt do it.

Yup and guess what, thats the job of the closer and once again he failed miserably. Although I dont entirely blame koch, Politte started the fire, the others just dumped gasoline on it.

"either us losing badly, or Winning Big and get him on track that way ..................."

Thats a good line. If our bullpen struggles anything near it did today, losing badly will steeply incline while winning big will decrease. Well Im ready to take a deep breath and put this behind me who's with me?

WhiteSox = Life
04-06-2004, 01:57 AM
Who'da thunk that there would be a number of people actually defending Koch in the first game of the season despite less than stellar results?

Regardless, the whole 9th inning was armageddonous and the sooner it is wiped from our minds as well as the Sox' and everybody moves on to winning, the better.

mweflen
04-06-2004, 02:03 AM
What happened to all this talk of Koch being given the opportunity to be the man, the closer? I thought the job was his?

I think the most potentially damaging fallout is to the attitudes of Koch (management doesn't trust me) and Marte (the rap is right, I can't close).

Mishandle it any more, and we'll have a Bears-like "QB controversy" on our hands.

---

and SINCE WHEN is ANYONE afraid of Matt Stairs' fearsome power? yeesh.

---

Koch looked good for the strikeout, showing excellent control. Santiago muscled a jam shot down the line. Conclusion: Koch should have been left in.


---

But then, hindsight is 20/20. Sigh. Let's get them on wednesday! We still have a couple games left until the Schoney meltdown!

depy48
04-06-2004, 02:12 AM
how can you put so much blame on Koch when 1)he pitched to two batters, and 2) he came in with two men in scoring position? I think Koch did a fine job, and should have started the 9th. Yeah, he did give up a double, but he also accounted for the ONLY OUT IN THE INNING. Marte sucked, and in my opinion, I'm putting the blame on Ozzie for trying to push Politte for too long. Polittie did a great job for two innings, but asking a third was a bit too much. With a 4run lead, i think its very feasible to pull Polittie after the lead off walk, or just come right out with koch. Marte was warming up anyway....even if koch started the inning and lets say gave up a run or two, then yank him and put him marte, but to ask koch to come in and finish off a game with NO outs and two runners in scoring position....

jeremyb1
04-06-2004, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by Stoky44
My question: who pitched the worst in the 9th inning:
a.) Politte
b.) Koch
c.) Marte

Marte. You have to evaluate the question in terms of expectations. Marte is one of the best relievers in the game so when you bring him in even in a tough situation with runners on base and a relatively close game, you expect him to close it out. Surrendering the lead and losing the game goes so far from what you'd reasonably expect him to do that you have no other options as a manager.

Elvisfan1977
04-06-2004, 02:25 AM
Rookie manager or not, I blame Ozzie for the loss. He should have kept Koch in the game. Taking him out after the double by Santiago and not giving him a chance to rebound was premature thinking on Ozzie's part. Grant it our pitchers failed in the ninth, but a message was sent to Koch and the rest of the bullpen. It's a confidence shattering move too early in the season to do to one of your players. Especially a pithcer who is coming off a bad season. Basically, Ozzie doesn't trust Koch on the mound and he let him know it. Moves like these that can have a negative effect on your team. I guess I don't understand. To me it's so early in the season, what could it have hurt to leave Koch in the game?

White_Sock
04-06-2004, 02:43 AM
You know after watching the game I knew when I came on here I would see many people blaming Koch. And I think that is absolute BS.

Actually, the first thread i saw after the game was "It wasn't Koch." (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31204) The whole purpose of the thread was to divert blame away from Koch. I don't think everyone is fully blaming Koch. However I don't think Koch should have been used today (I wasn't saying that at the time because we looked like we had the win in the bag, but I wasn't rooting for Ozzie to bring out Koch either)

While Koch did somewhat impress me today, he still gave up a key hit. All of the blame shouldn't fall on him. He did manage to get the only out of the inning with a solid K. Clearly it was a joint bullpen effort that blew this one. You can not bring Koch (a player yet to pitch with confidence for the sox) into an opening day situation with men on base. Koch is for those situations where we are 6+ runs up or where we're -6 in the 9th. He needs to build up a few "easy saves" before he can come into a situation where a hit costs runs. If the bases were empty on Koch's arrival into the game today, I think he would have gotten through the inning having given up 2 or less runs (IMHO).

awesomefan
04-06-2004, 03:07 AM
I've felt since last year that Koch needs to lose that fur ball on his chin. I THINK it will help his pitchin' & it can't hurt anything. It's certainly not intimidating any batters.

gosox41
04-06-2004, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
Good post. Koch was up to 96, 97 on the gun, and had his breaking stuff going pretty well for opening day. Marte blew it, plain and simple.

THen why was Koch pulled? Is he the closer or another specialist.

Bob

gosox41
04-06-2004, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by WhiteSox = Life
Who'da thunk that there would be a number of people actually defending Koch in the first game of the season despite less than stellar results?

Regardless, the whole 9th inning was armageddonous and the sooner it is wiped from our minds as well as the Sox' and everybody moves on to winning, the better.

The Sox need to figure out what to do with Koch. He is the declared closer, when IMHO he shouldn't be pitching anywhere near a lead. But then he gets pulled in the 9th inning after facing 2 batters.

:ozzie

I've tried to take at least one characteristic from every manager I've worked/played under. I learned the tinkering from JM.

Bob

SSN721
04-06-2004, 07:20 AM
But bad facial hair has a long storied tradition in Major League Baseball. You cant deny a pitcher their birthright. :D: