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View Full Version : Fire up the Neal Cotts bandwagon


pudge
03-29-2004, 01:40 PM
I'm on it. Who's with me?

soltrain21
03-29-2004, 01:42 PM
Sure, I'll bite...

delben91
03-29-2004, 01:44 PM
Count me in.

fledgedrallycap
03-29-2004, 01:47 PM
Count me in, too.

steff
03-29-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm on it. Who's with me?



I've been drving this bad boy since the Futures Game in July!! :gulp: :gulp:

Palehose13
03-29-2004, 01:51 PM
Is he ready? I haven't seen/heard many ST games. From what I have heard about Schoenweiss, he scares the hell out of me. What about Grilli? OR Marte has expressed wanting to start...

soltrain21
03-29-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Is he ready? I haven't seen/heard many ST games. From what I have heard about Schoenweiss, he scares the hell out of me. What about Grilli? OR Marte has expressed wanting to start...


Cotts is starting today or tomorrow. I think if he has a really good start than Shoeny could get bumped back the pen and Grilli could be back to the Fightin' Fish.

JRIG
03-29-2004, 01:53 PM
I'd rather see Rauch get first crack at the #5 starter slot. He was very solid down the stetch in Charlotte last year and is less prone to control problems than Cotts.

That said, he's already been optioned out to AAA, so of the guys still in camp Cotts is a pretty good choice.

jeremyb1
03-29-2004, 01:58 PM
If he's the alternative to Schoeneweis in the rotation, I'm all over it.

fledgedrallycap
03-29-2004, 02:02 PM
I'm just wondering, the Sox optioned Rauch to minor league camp sometime last week. Are there any restraints in bringing him back to the 25 man roster before camp breaks if the Sox decide to send Schoenwies down?

Hangar18
03-29-2004, 02:09 PM
(runs toward bandwagon, out of breathe, and jumps aboard)

Hey guys, any room for me to jump on?

Rocky Soprano
03-29-2004, 02:10 PM
Let me in!

:D:

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
I'm just wondering, the Sox optioned Rauch to minor league camp sometime last week. Are there any restraints in bringing him back to the 25 man roster before camp breaks if the Sox decide to send Schoenwies down? Not going to happen. The Sox would ideally like to have a lefty, making Cotts a logical choice IMO. With that said, it is disappointing that we may lose Grilli. If we can work out a trade to keep him, great. However, cost has to be considered. I still would prefer Grilli remain as the long reliever, and Schoney go down to AAA to figure it out. They are the ones who are there day in and day out watching ST, so if they feel this is best, I'll go with it.

JRIG
03-29-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not going to happen. The Sox would ideally like to have a lefty, making Cotts a logical choice IMO.

Ideally, I'd like to have someone who can get major league hitters out pitching in the #5 spot. Whether he throws with his right arm, left arm, or left foot is inconsequential.

CHISOXFAN13
03-29-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm on it. Who's with me?

As a fellow Redbird, I've always been on ther Cotts bandwagon. That being said, I'll certainly be nervous if he's on the bump at Yankee Stadium sometime next weekend.

fledgedrallycap
03-29-2004, 02:15 PM
Guys, Schoenwies will be fine. He's just working on a new pitch called a strike. :D:

JRIG
03-29-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Guys, Schoenwies will be fine. He's just working on a new pitch called a strike. :D:

Yeah, apparently they haven't been allowing him to throw that pitch in spring training so far.

OEO Magglio
03-29-2004, 02:23 PM
Why not, count me in.

pudge
03-29-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
That being said, I'll certainly be nervous if he's on the bump at Yankee Stadium sometime next weekend.

Good lord, we could be driving this bandwagon right into an oncoming train. Stef is the driver, I want no blame for this.

:)

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Ideally, I'd like to have someone who can get major league hitters out pitching in the #5 spot. Whether he throws with his right arm, left arm, or left foot is inconsequential. That's obvious, but the Sox appear more ready to trust Cotts with the spot over Rauch. I said ideally they would like that person to be a lefty, making Cotts a logical choice. Cotts didn't have a great start when being first brought up by the Sox last year, but neither did Rauch when he first came up. Cotts is having a pretty decent ST, and we could do worse on our roster. Worse possibly being Schoney. I think Schoney can be a starter, and I thought the new pitches would really help him get righties out, and still do. However, he obviously needs more time to refine them, and time is something we don't have. I would rather give him the time in AAA to figure it out.

Tekijawa
03-29-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Guys, Schoenwies will be fine. He's just working on a new pitch called a strike. :D:

Actually I think he's leading the ST league in Strike outs, maybe we can trade him to the cubs since they like those Crappy high strike out total pitchers, I heard there's a spot at one of the top three in the rotation that just open up, might not be filled until after May 1 now from what I've heard!

lowesox
03-29-2004, 03:03 PM
I'm on that train - just as long as it passes through Charlotte. Cotts will be good soon, but I'd rather he didn't start the season in the majors. What I'd really like is for Kenny to find us a cheap veteran. Surely somebody decent has been cut recently.

MRKARNO
03-29-2004, 03:08 PM
I like this idea in the long run, but let's think about where he is going to have his first start if he takes the fourth or fifth spot: Yankee Stadium, the place where his career suffered a big hit.

Now if he can go in there and make a good start, that would do wonders for his confidence, but he always could screw up again.

So we're either gonna have Wright, Cotts or Schoeneweis starting against the Yankee Stadium opener. That's a scary thought.

But I'll hop on the bandwagon just because I'm a foe of Schoe and this seems to be the only other option.

Funny how Cotts might start twice in Yankee stadium before Buehrle started once and Buehrle has wanted his entire career to start a game in NY.

steff
03-29-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
(runs toward bandwagon, out of breathe, and jumps aboard)

Hey guys, any room for me to jump on?


Sure... just keep this this roll of duct tape with you at all times.. kay? :D:

depy48
03-29-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not going to happen. The Sox would ideally like to have a lefty, making Cotts a logical choice IMO. With that said, it is disappointing that we may lose Grilli. If we can work out a trade to keep him, great. However, cost has to be considered. I still would prefer Grilli remain as the long reliever, and Schoney go down to AAA to figure it out. They are the ones who are there day in and day out watching ST, so if they feel this is best, I'll go with it.

no way schoney will see any time at triple A . KW is too proud to let that happen...

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by depy48
no way schoney will see any time at triple A . KW is too proud to let that happen... You're right, but the guy can still be an effective pitcher. What's really in question is whether he can start or not, IMO. I think he's going to turn it around, at least enough to be a decent starter, but I and no one else wants him to figure it out at our expense during the season. That's the only reason I suggested it. Even though it isn't enough to convince anyone that he turned it around in one start, I'm curious to how he responds in his next outing against the Brewers again.

sas1974
03-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
Guys, Schoenwies will be fine. He's just working on a new pitch called a strike. :D:

That's funny! Although strikes haven't actually been his problem. Missing the bat? That's another story!

PS-Save a seat for me on the Cotts bandwagon! :D:

34 Inch Stick
03-29-2004, 04:49 PM
Doesn't it concern anyone that we are one week away from the start of the season and 2/5 of our rotation is still up in the air?

Tragg
03-29-2004, 04:58 PM
You guys are in for a big disapointment.

He was traded to the Sox by none other than Billy Beane, the greatest baseball mind, ever, and probably second only to Einstein as to the greatest minds in any endeavor in the 20th Century.. Therefore, it is against the laws of natural science for Cotts to turn into an effective pitcher.


You'd be better spending your time with alchemy, a perpetual motion machine, or proving that the world really is flat.

maurice
03-29-2004, 05:10 PM
Billy Beane never trades away any good players. That's why Olivo will never amount to anything.

steff
03-29-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Good lord, we could be driving this bandwagon right into an oncoming train. Stef is the driver, I want no blame for this.

:)



Hey now... I'm a good driver. :gulp: hick-up :gulp:

:D:

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Doesn't it concern anyone that we are one week away from the start of the season and 2/5 of our rotation is still up in the air? Correction, 1/5 is in question. Wright, regardless of he's the fourth or fifth, isn't being questioned as a starter, at least by me. He has certainly earned a spot this ST.

minastirith67
03-29-2004, 08:10 PM
Hey, the Cubs don't need a 5th lefty starter, so why should we get one :?:

A. Cavatica
03-29-2004, 08:32 PM
I'm on board. 5 solid innings, that's all I ask.

SoxxoS
03-29-2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I'm on board. 5 solid innings, that's all I ask.

And you won't receive...

Hasn't anyone learned from the rushing pitchers experiments of the last 5 years?

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I'm on board. 5 solid innings, that's all I ask. Cotts only pitched 3 today.

A. Cavatica
03-29-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Hasn't anyone learned from the rushing pitchers experiments of the last 5 years?

Yes -- but we've also learned from the Navarros and Ritchies and all the other failed "veteran" starters that Cotts won't be any worse than Schoeneweis.

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 09:51 PM
It appears Cotts is willing to take on a reliever role in order to make the team. He said so himself on the whitesox homepage. I wasn't really in favor for that scenerio, but if it is something he wants, maybe he will end up helping him and us. He could still get stretched out for next season. I believe it is still yet to be determined, but something the Sox are considering.

gosox41
03-29-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm on it. Who's with me?

Hate to see that wagon tip over if things got a little rocky there.

Bob

gosox41
03-29-2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Billy Beane never trades away any good players. That's why Olivo will never amount to anything.

The last 3 years the Sox have been a legitimate contender for the division. The last 3 years various memebers of the bullpen have let the team down. THe last 3 years the Sox have zero playofo appearances. The A's have 3 with Chad Bradford. Now I'm certainly not saying that Chad Bradford is the sole reason the team hasn't made the playoffs, nor do I blame Olivo for not making it in '03 (though he didn't hit well at all.) But the fact is Chad Bradford the last 3 years would have been a much mroe valuable asset to have around for a team that is trying to win now then Olivo.

Maybe Olivo will be great, maybe not. But I do know that if a team is trying to win now, it's not always the best idea to trade away productive players for unproductive (ie minor leaguers).

Bob

Daver
03-29-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The last 3 years the Sox have been a legitimate contender for the division. The last 3 years various memebers of the bullpen have let the team down. THe last 3 years the Sox have zero playofo appearances. The A's have 3 with Chad Bradford. Now I'm certainly not saying that Chad Bradford is the sole reason the team hasn't made the playoffs, nor do I blame Olivo for not making it in '03 (though he didn't hit well at all.) But the fact is Chad Bradford the last 3 years would have been a much mroe valuable asset to have around for a team that is trying to win now then Olivo.

Maybe Olivo will be great, maybe not. But I do know that if a team is trying to win now, it's not always the best idea to trade away productive players for unproductive (ie minor leaguers).

Bob


You gonna have to do a LOT of convincing to make the argument that trading a specialist relief pitcher for an everyday catcher is in any way,shape,or form a bad deal,especially for a position that the team has no minor league depth in.

There is a reason the cathcher bats ninth in the AL,he is not expected to be a hitter,any offense you get from that spot is a plus.

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You gonna have to do a LOT of convincing to make the argument that trading a specialist relief pitcher for an everyday catcher is in any way,shape,or form a bad deal,especially for a position that the team has no minor league depth in.

There is a reason the cathcher bats ninth in the AL,he is not expected to be a hitter,any offense you get from that spot is a plus. Besides, wasn't that move made during the white flag of 2001? Despite that move being unpopular, it silents the argument of keeping Chad in hopes of "winning now."

Man Soo Lee
03-30-2004, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Daver
There is a reason the cathcher bats ninth in the AL,he is not expected to be a hitter,any offense you get from that spot is a plus.

Offense from the catcher is a plus that helps separate the contenders from the also-rans. Here's the batting average/OPS for Olivo and the four AL playoff catchers last year:

Olivo: .237/.646
R. Hernandez: .273/.789
Pierzynski: .312/.824
Varitek: .273/.863
Posada: .281/.922

I don't think it's a coincidence that the four playoff teams didn't concede an out at that spot in the lineup.

soxtalker
03-30-2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
The last 3 years the Sox have been a legitimate contender for the division. The last 3 years various memebers of the bullpen have let the team down. THe last 3 years the Sox have zero playofo appearances. The A's have 3 with Chad Bradford. Now I'm certainly not saying that Chad Bradford is the sole reason the team hasn't made the playoffs, nor do I blame Olivo for not making it in '03 (though he didn't hit well at all.) But the fact is Chad Bradford the last 3 years would have been a much mroe valuable asset to have around for a team that is trying to win now then Olivo.

Maybe Olivo will be great, maybe not. But I do know that if a team is trying to win now, it's not always the best idea to trade away productive players for unproductive (ie minor leaguers).

Bob

I have a slightly different perspective. It isn't so much that getting Olivo was bad; we were sorely in need of good catching prospects in our system. What troubles me about this is that the Sox didn't seem to see any value in Bradford. Now, much of what I know of this is based on Moneyball, which gave Bradford's impression (as well as Beane's). But it rings true. We've had a lot of pitching prospects over the past few years that haven't panned out. Some have had to injuries, but I'm concerned about failures of judgement and training in the Sox system.

gosox41
03-30-2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Besides, wasn't that move made during the white flag of 2001? Despite that move being unpopular, it silents the argument of keeping Chad in hopes of "winning now."

It happened after the 2000 season.

Bob

maurice
03-30-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
I don't think it's a coincidence that the four playoff teams didn't concede an out at that spot in the lineup.

I do. The cubs almost went to the WS with Damian Miller (.233/.680). They're odds on favorites to return to the playoffs with Michael Barrett (.208/.678). Anaheim won the WS with Bengie Molina (.245/.596)! In any event, none of those guys were rookies just up from AA. Olivo will be significantly more productive this season and for the rest of his career.

BTW, in the spirit of my previous post, Hernandez is no good because he was traded away by the great Billy Beane. Strangely, the word "Olivo" appears nowhere in Moneyball, which is a hagiography of Billy Beane.

:)

SEALgep
03-30-2004, 01:45 PM
Besides two out of the four teams mentioned were the Red Sox and Yankees. Is it coincidence that the top hitting catchers are also on the teams with ridiculous payrolls. Besides, Olivo was brought up straight from AA, and was doubtedly told to focus on learning to call games and handle a pitching staff who he had no repour with. He's having a good ST, cut the guy a little slack.

Man Soo Lee
03-30-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I do. The cubs almost went to the WS with Damian Miller (.233/.680). They're odds on favorites to return to the playoffs with Michael Barrett (.208/.678). Anaheim won the WS with Bengie Molina (.245/.596)!

Batting average/OPS for the NL playoff catchers:
Miller: .233/.680
Santiago: .279/.753
Rodriguez: .297/.843
Lopez: .328/1.065

That's 7 out of 8 playoff teams with offensive production from their catcher. I'm not suggesting that it's the defining characteristic of playoff teams, but in a close division race there must be some benefit to giving 400+ more at-bats to a useful hitter.

Originally posted by SEALgep
Besides two out of the four teams mentioned were the Red Sox and Yankees. Is it coincidence that the top hitting catchers are also on the teams with ridiculous payrolls

No, it's not. It's also not a coincidence that those teams tend to play in October. I think Lip has been over this ground before. :smile:

SoxxoS
03-30-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
No, it's not. It's also not a coincidence that those teams tend to play in October. I think Lip has been over this ground before. :smile:

Speaking of Lip, where has he been? Anyone know? He hasn't posted in a while.

maurice
03-30-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
I'm not suggesting that it's the defining characteristic of playoff teams, but in a close division race there must be some benefit to giving 400+ more at-bats to a useful hitter.

There's certainly "some benefit" to above-average offensive production at any position, but that's not any different from Daver's original statement that "any offense you get from that spot is a plus." OTOH, there's a great deal of benefit in getting above-average defense from that key defensive position.

LoveTheSox
03-30-2004, 05:16 PM
why not?...count me in...he's too cute not to support :D:

sas1974
03-30-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by LoveTheSox
why not?...count me in...he's too cute not to support :D:

And isn't that really why we all want him to stay in Chicago? :D:

LoveTheSox
03-30-2004, 05:28 PM
If they're going to be mediorce at best...then they might as well look good doing it.

steff
03-30-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by LoveTheSox
If they're going to be mediorce at best...then they might as well look good doing it.



Amen!!

I call him... Hott Cotts.. :D: