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View Full Version : Who's In Kenny William's Doghouse?


Ken
03-27-2004, 09:28 PM
Does anyone have any idea who KW is talking about?

From The White Sox Website...

"There are a couple of intriguing things out there," Williams said prior to watching the White Sox drop a 4-3 decision to Texas and Chan Ho Park. "I'm still waiting for one particular person to pick up the pace a little bit, in terms of them getting ready for the season.

"If they don't pick up the pace, then you might see something different. But at this point, we'll have to let it play out."

When Williams was pressed as to whether he was talking about another general manager in terms of finalizing a trade or one of his own players, Williams made it clear that he was talking about someone from the White Sox currently in Tucson. He wouldn't put forth much more information past that clarification.

"I'm not going to go there," Williams said. "Somebody that thinks he's on the team that might find himself surprised unless he picks it up. That's all I'll say on it."

poorme
03-27-2004, 09:37 PM
Takatsu is the only one that makes sense.

MRKARNO
03-27-2004, 09:41 PM
Hitter candidates:

PK: .306 avg is good, but a .388 SLG doesn't impress. It could be him.
Harris: His counterpart actually might be in scoring position when by the time the next batter comes to the plate, plus Dransfeldt is having a nice spring so he could easily be replaced if they decide to go Uribe full time.

Pitching candidates:
Shingo: Why do you think
Schoenweis: You know about him too
Loaiza: Dissapointing spring. Williams could always surprise us at any time.
Anyone else would be more of a longshot.

SEALgep
03-27-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Takatsu is the only one that makes sense. I don't think it's him, although I could be wrong. He has had a weak ST thus far, no doubt about it. However, I don't believe his work ethic is in question. We shall see, but this is going to eat at me.

Jjav829
03-27-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Loaiza: Dissapointing spring. Williams could always surprise us at any time.
Anyone else would be more of a longshot.

No way in hell that happens IMO. I'm sure KW knows that our best chance to win this division is if Loaiza comes near last years performance. I really don't know who he is referring to. My guess would be Takatsu. I'm not sure PK really thinks he's on the team. He's heard the rumors so he wouldn't be surprised at anything. No one else really fits the mold. Harris would be my other guess. It would seem to make a little sense with Uribe playing well and the Perez move, but Ozzie has said Willie is his second baseman.

OEO Magglio
03-27-2004, 09:50 PM
I think he's talking about shoney.

SoxxoS
03-27-2004, 10:07 PM
I think it's Willie

beckett21
03-27-2004, 10:12 PM
FWIW my vote goes to Wee Willie as well. The writing's on the wall as far as I'm concerned. I doubt it's any of the pitchers because we don't have any to spare, certainly not a SP. Uribe's playing well, Timo can play CF...the Willie Harris era is on hold is my best guess.

ChiSox7
03-27-2004, 10:24 PM
I'm not sure where everyone is getting this Willie is playing bad, while Uribe is playing good vibe at. They are hitting almost exactly the same thing, around .270, while Willie is getting on base and Uribe is slugging. Willie has been playing much better D as well. Willie might not be playing better than Uribe, but I don't think he's playing much worse.

Now if Willie has an attitude problem, then it could definately be him. I dont think we can tell that. That being said, I'm not sure whohe could be talkin about.

jeremyb1
03-27-2004, 10:33 PM
What a bizarre quote. I can't figure it our for the life of me. It seems as though Frank, Jose, Crede, Carlos, and Maggs are sure things amongst the position players. Olivo isn't all that entrenched but his numbers have been good this spring. PK struggled last season but he has a huge reputation for hard work. As someone mentioned Harris is actually outhitting Uribe and he has been thought to have been fighting for his job so it doesn't make sense that he'd slack off. You could speculate that Rowand is in trouble with Sweeney, Reed, and Borchard all still in camp but he's hit very well and also has a reputation for a strong work ethic.

As far as pitchers, Politte and Marte have to be considered locks. Koch is making 6 million and has been named the closer so he's got to make the club. Takatsu has struggled but are there really problems with his work ethic? Wunsch is cheap and proven. Schoeneweis has only one start under his belt where he's worked with his full repetoire and the rest of the rotation has performed well. I'm completely at a loss.

Palehose13
03-27-2004, 10:38 PM
Man Soo Lee?

http://baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/2002/events/020729/01_pages/images/img_020x.jpg

SEALgep
03-27-2004, 10:39 PM
I have a hunch it could be Grilli. I like this guy and would prefer us not having to send him back to Florida, but he has had a couple rough outings. I think he has a good attitude, but who knows for sure. The way KW said it makes me think it's someone not performing to par but is also not putting in the extra work to rectify their performance. I'm at a loss, but it certainly could be him. I hope not, but if they notice a sub par attitude from anyone, they should be reevaluated.

mikef1331
03-27-2004, 10:42 PM
I think it's pobably Willie Harris or Koch. It might also be Jeremy Reed, everyone has been talking about how great he was in the offseason... but so far in ST he hasn't done much.

soltrain21
03-27-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by mikef1331
I think it's pobably Willie Harris or Koch. It might also be Jeremy Reed, everyone has been talking about how great he was in the offseason... but so far in ST he hasn't done much.

Yeah, but I don't think anyone ever considered him a "lock" for the team.

joecrede
03-27-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Wunsch is cheap and proven.

I think this might be the guy.

DSpivack
03-27-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think this might be the guy.

Say it is? What do we get for him? Another bad reliever?

Rex Hudler
03-27-2004, 11:43 PM
"I'm still waiting for one particular person to pick up the pace a little bit, in terms of them getting ready for the season. "If they don't pick up the pace, then you might see something different. But at this point, we'll have to let it play out."

That is open to interpretation. It could merely mean he is waiting for someone to pick it up in terms of performance and has nothing to do with effort.

Hard to say for sure what exactly he meant..... which, i believe, was his point.

LASOXFAN
03-28-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What a bizarre quote. I can't figure it our for the life of me. It seems as though Frank, Jose, Crede, Carlos, and Maggs are sure things amongst the position players. Olivo isn't all that entrenched but his numbers have been good this spring. PK struggled last season but he has a huge reputation for hard work. As someone mentioned Harris is actually outhitting Uribe and he has been thought to have been fighting for his job so it doesn't make sense that he'd slack off. You could speculate that Rowand is in trouble with Sweeney, Reed, and Borchard all still in camp but he's hit very well and also has a reputation for a strong work ethic.

As far as pitchers, Politte and Marte have to be considered locks. Koch is making 6 million and has been named the closer so he's got to make the club. Takatsu has struggled but are there really problems with his work ethic? Wunsch is cheap and proven. Schoeneweis has only one start under his belt where he's worked with his full repetoire and the rest of the rotation has performed well. I'm completely at a loss.

Yeah, bizarre is right. And can you imagine any GM worth a damn doing something so stupid? A GM who preaches team unity and demands that disputes be kept in the clubhouse??

KW is such an ass. Not only has he decimated the farm system and hired a mascot to manage but now he pulls this.

ShoelessFred
03-28-2004, 12:39 AM
it's gotta be PK.

maybe the LA deal is still alive

chisox06
03-28-2004, 12:48 AM
Paulie is hittin over .300 isnt he? He's turned it on as of late. Givin the competition at 2nd base my vote is for Willie. Considering Uribe is showing consistently he should be on the opening day starting lineup, Willy needs to pick it up BIG TIME.

SEALgep
03-28-2004, 12:59 AM
KW had talked over ST that Willie is doing fine and that even though he didn't start off getting a lot of hits, he was having quality at bats. I really doubt it's him. I'm sticking with Grilli, but again, I really hope he isn't sent back to Florida. I hope he does pick it up. He has shown good pitching ability, mixed with a couple poor outings. I belive he will pick it up, at least well enough to be a long reliever. We shall see.

MRKARNO
03-28-2004, 01:23 AM
I don't really know who it could possibly be. I hope it's Schoenweis because I think he's an inevitable disaster, but the management at least on the outside seems to put all the faith in the world in him, even suggesting he could be the third starter.

PK is a hard worker who has a high ST average. The only problem is that his power seems to be down

bc2k
03-28-2004, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Ken


Based on KW's curt comment, I'd say the player he was talking about fits these two specifications:

1) High expectations coming into camp.
2) Underperforming in Spring Training.

Conclusion: :?:

My first guess was Harris, and after thinking about it, Harris still. I certainly didn't have high expectations of Harris, but perhaps KW overhyped his baby. Perhaps KW wanted his trade to work out so badly, that his want morphed into expectation.

It's hard to come to a conclusion because each of us here has different expectations for each player; one guy might think Crede is a stud (thinking of his potential) while another might think he's an overhyped POS (like bc2k does).

jeremyb1
03-28-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Based on KW's curt comment, I'd say the player he was talking about fits these two specifications:

1) High expectations coming into camp.
2) Underperforming in Spring Training.

Another key is that the player seems to be slacking off. That seemingly eliminates players with strong reputations for hard work (Rowand, PK) and players that have been fighting for jobs (Harris, Uribe, Schoeneweis).

jeremyb1
03-28-2004, 02:16 AM
Here's another thought. In the trib, it is made to sound as though KW is considering trading the player as opposed to sending him to AAA. That would mean the player is not necessarily a fringe player but it could be a well established guy. As I said before, the number of outfielders still in camp (Sweeney, Borchard, Reed) seems more conspicuous than the players at any other position. Could Lee be on the block?

bc2k
03-28-2004, 02:29 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Another key is that the player seems to be slacking off. That seemingly eliminates players with strong reputations for hard work (Rowand, PK) and players that have been fighting for jobs (Harris, Uribe, Schoeneweis).

I agree with your opinion that the player in question seems to be slacking off, but disagree with your reasoning that eliminates Harris as a suspect.

I also think (based only on a gut feeling) that KW is referring to a position player, not a pitcher. Can KW afford to trade away ANY pitcher left in Tucson?

row18
03-28-2004, 02:29 AM
I think it's Takatsu, because so far, he's really looking like "Mr. Zero" as in zero talent, hell if any of us threw in a ST game I'm sure we can get a foul out, and a few ground balls. I hope I'm wrong but this guy is scaring me.

Win1ForMe
03-28-2004, 02:54 AM
If Kenny is thinking of shipping out the mystery man then why in the world would he intimate his poor practice/Spring training habits to the media? That's unlikely to enhance his trade value.

I can only imagine that this would refer to a big name. I guess KW thinks other teams might overlook poor work habits if they see production.

Jjav829
03-28-2004, 03:20 AM
Maybe he isn't referring to anyone. I'm thinking that maybe KW did this just to make players think twice about their roster security in hopes that they will turn it up a notch in the final week of ST so that they will be playing their best going into Kansas City.

JohnBasedowYoda
03-28-2004, 03:54 AM
there's no way it's wunsch

Veeky
03-28-2004, 04:11 AM
"If they don't pick up the pace, then you might see something different. But at this point, we'll have to let it play out."

When Williams was pressed as to whether he was talking about another general manager in terms of finalizing a trade or one of his own players, Williams made it clear that he was talking about someone from the White Sox currently in Tucson. He wouldn't put forth much more information past that clarification.

"I'm not going to go there," Williams said. "Somebody that thinks he's on the team that might find himself surprised unless he picks it up. That's all I'll say on it."

It's either Grilli or Harris.

Rex Hudler
03-28-2004, 06:15 AM
My guess it is Grilli, Schoenweiss, or Konerko.

Paulie is hitting .319, but only has 4 extra base hits including 0 HR's.

white sox bill
03-28-2004, 08:31 AM
Its Wee Willie--although Schony will be our version of flubs Shawn Estes last yr :whiner:

guillen4life13
03-28-2004, 11:06 AM
I tend to agree with Jjav on this one: he's just saying this to get all of the players on their toes and playing harder going into Opening Day.

You'd have to agree it's a possibility and if it is indeed the case, I don't think it's such a bad idea.

If it is referring to someone in particular, he's done a good job by not saying who it is--then it gets the other players on their toes also.

CubKiller5
03-28-2004, 12:05 PM
It's got to be PK. The key to the comment is that this person thinks it's a lock he's going to be here.

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/springStats?team=chw&year=2004
Willie is really picking it up of late, so KW's comments don't make sense towards him.

http://baseball.espn.go.com/mlb/springStats?team=chw&year=2004
PLAYER AVG G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI
------ --- - -- - - -- -- -- -- ---
J Valentin .396 16 48 11 19 36 3 4 2 13
F Thomas .368 15 38 5 14 27 7 0 2 11
A Rowand .378 14 45 5 17 26 3 0 2 11
J Crede .366 15 41 9 15 26 5 0 2 9
R Gload .302 19 53 11 16 26 1 0 3 7
M Ordonez .351 12 37 7 13 23 4 0 2 6
C Lee .357 14 42 7 15 22 7 0 0 8

P Konerko .306 16 49 7 15 19 4 0 0 5
W Harris .271 15 48 8 13 18 3 1 0 5
R Sweeney .367 14 30 4 11 13 2 0 0 4
S Alomar .385 9 26 6 10 12 0 1 0 5
M Olivo .355 11 31 6 11 12 1 0 0 2
M Morse .333 5 6 0 2 2 0 0 0 0

Slugging % is reflected in TB's. PK has the worst TB/AB ratio of
established players in camp. (38%). Compare that to Gload (49%) , Thomas (71%), & Lee (rumored to play 1B at times) (52%) & it's clear Slownerko is not measuring up. With the surprise in Gload & the acquisition of a new OF Slownerko is expendable.

SEALgep
03-28-2004, 12:18 PM
It isn't PK or Willie, these guys are having pretty decent ST. My new one if it isn't Grilli is Mike Jackson. A veteran leader who has had success in the past, but not a very good ST- 6 ERA. Come to think of it, he was quoted as saying that he knows how to get guys out and that the coaching staff should realze that with his track record. However, Ozzie and KW has said people need to earn their spots on this team, regardless of the past.

dickallen15
03-28-2004, 12:35 PM
Just another example of Kenny flapping his gums when he should just be quiet. Putting a cloud over what was supposed to have been a happy clubhouse, and/or lowering the value of someone he may be trying to get rid of, just so he could see his quotes in the paper. He's the guy who should be gone.

Unregistered
03-28-2004, 12:37 PM
This is from the Trib about Grilli's Performance on Saturday...

Grilli all but seals roster spot
TUCSON, Ariz. -- Jason Grilli probably wrapped up a spot on the White Sox's pitching staff Saturday with a three-inning outing in a minor-league game.

While the rest of the Sox were facing the Texas Rangers in Surprise, Ariz., Grilli struck out four and didn't allow a hit. Grilli will take the long-man role in the bullpen as well as be a spot starter.

The Sox acquired Grilli over the winter from the Marlins. He was a Rule 5 selection, so if he doesn't make the 25-man roster he has to be offered back to Florida.

Grilli thought he would be pitching at 9:30 a.m. He was in uniform and ready to go when he found out he was to pitch in the afternoon.
That would seem to cancel him out of all this madness... :?:

SEALgep
03-28-2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
This is from the Trib about Grilli's Performance on Saturday...

That would seem to cancel him out of all this madness... :?: Looks you're right, and I'm glad it seems to be the case because I like this guy. Makes me think it's Jackson. I think Jackson can be valuable, and I think the coaches and KW agree, but he is yet to earn the spot, in my mind. Especially with Adkins pitching like he has. People say Jackson was never a lock for the spot, but like I said previously. Jackson thinks he deserves a spot from his track record, and Ozzie and KW have stated on numerous occassions that a spot must be earned not given based on prior accomplishments. We shall see. That seems to me to be the most likely scenerio, after pondering it for a while, but it could also be the lighting of the fire for all still in ST.

lowesox
03-28-2004, 02:07 PM
Here's something that nobody has really been considering: When Williams says, "There a couple of intriguing things out there..." it makes me thing that he's talking about acquiring a player to replace somebody who fits a role. Which means the player in question would probably be somebody with a very important role. Which leads me to believe it's one of these three guys:

Willie Harris (Maybe Kenny is thinking about bringing in another starting 2b)
Takatsu (He is after all, supposed to be the Key RH Setup man - if he continues to underperform we'll need somebody solid)
Shoenweiss (Has done anything but pitch his way into the #4 spot)

Personally, I'd be very happy if it were Shoenweiss. In fact, I think he's the most logical suspect. After all, wasn't he all but given a starting job right after Kenny traded for him?

soxfan26
03-28-2004, 02:29 PM
Please let it be Schoeneweiss.

MRKARNO
03-28-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Please let it be Schoeneweiss.

If we are able to move Schoenweis to the pen or away from the team and we get a solid starter somehow, there is no reason why this team can't win 90 games. As it is this team should win 90+, but if Schoenweis is still starting in June, we have a problem. Even Neal Cotts, Jon Rauch or Jason Grilli would be a huge upgrade.

soxfan26
03-28-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If we are able to move Schoenweis to the pen or away from the team and we get a solid starter somehow, there is no reason why this team can't win 90 games. As it is this team should win 90+, but if Schoenweis is still starting in June, we have a problem. Even Neal Cotts, Jon Rauch or Jason Grilli would be a huge upgrade.

KW most likely said that so he could review this thread and decide what his next move should be.

Hopefully he takes your advice on Schoeny.

fuzzy_patters
03-28-2004, 02:44 PM
I think it is obviously Shoenweiss. Here is a list of the top candidates and my thoughts on each.

Willie Harris - He didn't get a hit for the first four or five games of spring training, but has since pulled his average up to .271. Without the first week of spring, he would probably be hitting over .300. He doesn't fit the mold of a player that is not performing well that needs to turn it on.

Paul Konerko - He isn't hitting for much power, but he is hitting .306. It's good to see him hitting singles and building confidence. He needs to feel good about himself before he can hit homers. I don't think it's him.

Juan Uribe - He hasn't played very well recently. Although, he did get off to a hot start. He has hit with some power and has an average in the .260s, so I don't think it's him.

Shingo Takatsu - He has never played in the majors, so I don't think he qualifies as a guy who thinks he is going to make the team. I'm sure Shingo knows he has a lot to prove in American baseball. However, he is a possibility becaus he has pitched so poorly.

Scott Shoenweiss - Shoney has made several comments that he hasn't been effective because he is working on some pitches, and Ozzie and Cooper know what he is doing. Meanwhile, his ERA is over 7. This sounds an awful lot like a guy who thinks he has made the team but needs to step it up. He is the only guy that I can think of that really fits both sides of the equation.

Veeky
03-28-2004, 02:47 PM
Even Neal Cotts, Jon Rauch or Jason Grilli would be a huge upgrade.

Neal Cotts isn't ready. Do you think he is able to go from no control as of Sept 2003 to good control as of March 2004? Shoenweiss walked 19 in 65 innings in 2003. Not great, but not bad either. He is working on the cutter/change -- not easy to do it in Arizona. Has a good sinker and a serviceable slider. Might flame out, but I wouldn't be suprised if he succeded as a fifth starter -- now if we could only do something about that #3 spot.....

Rauch....Does anyone know if he's regained 2000 velocity and movement on curve and slider?

Grilli is underwhelming, but if he starts out of Bp, no problem.

SoxxoS
03-28-2004, 02:47 PM
Well, we've named nearly every player on the team.

soxfan26
03-28-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters

Scott Shoenweiss - Shoney has made several comments that he hasn't been effective because he is working on some pitches, and Ozzie and Cooper know what he is doing. Meanwhile, his ERA is over 7. This sounds an awful lot like a guy who thinks he has made the team but needs to step it up. He is the only guy that I can think of that really fits both sides of the equation.

That's good thinkin man! But IIRC wasn't KW excited to see Schoeny adding his new pitches?

fuzzy_patters
03-28-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
That's good thinkin man! But IIRC wasn't KW excited to see Schoeny adding his new pitches?

I am sure KW was excited 3 weeks ago, but he would probably like to see Shoney start getting some outs now. Spring Training is coming to a close, and he needs to show how he is going to pitch during the season. He has been terrible all spring, and that does not portend well for the season.

MRKARNO
03-28-2004, 03:04 PM
Schoenweis had better step it up today against the freaking brewers. If he allows more than 1 run per 3 innings pitched at this point in spring training, then he does not deserve to make this rotation. He still could be somewhat servicable as a reliever if Takatsu doesnt pan out.

Brian26
03-28-2004, 03:18 PM
Bruce Levine pretty much confirmed this morning that it was either Scho or Zero.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-28-2004, 03:22 PM
Well, if it is schoenweis, then KW should give himself the boot because he's the guy who thought he'd be a decent starter and exercized the 1.75 mil option on him instead of getting a real starter for that price.

Veeky
03-28-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Bruce Levine pretty much confirmed this morning that it was either Scho or Zero.

Does he plan to slide Danny into 4th spot and use Grilli as a 5th starter -- how many starts would a 5 make in April? Meanwhile Show will work on the cutter/change in AAA where there is less at stake.

Shingo gets righties out. I'd rather he stay and Wunsht-2.0 if anything else.

Veeky
03-28-2004, 03:28 PM
instead of getting a real starter for that price.

I am glad we didn't get Colon, Ponson, Garcia, Perez or whoever else we tried bringing in. Those guys are overrated and aren't worth the money they got for various reasons, including but not limited to weight prblems and lack of breaking arsenal; frayed labrum; Dodger Stadium dependency; inconsistency; and terrible work ethic

Show is no bargain, though, I agree.

ETA: If it means anything, Odalix Perez is having an OUTSTANDING spring. 2 walks/22Ks in 20 innings, with a 0.90 ERA. Makes me wish Konerko/Ginter for Perez had gone through, but Paulie's value ust wasn't enough.

beckett21
03-28-2004, 03:47 PM
I'll be honest here I haven't gotten to see much ST action. If it is Schoney I think that is pretty unfair unless it is an attitude issue. If the guy is working on some new pitches, that shouldn't be held against him. Now is the time to work on new things. Now if his attitude sucks, that's another issue entirely and I can't speak of that because I have no idea.

Mr. Zero pretty much blows. Give him his $1 mil and SAYONARA. Cut our losses before it starts costing us real games.

johnny_mostil
03-28-2004, 04:03 PM
Of course it is Schoeneweis. Of all the players in camp with any chance of making the team, he's stinking up the joint the worst.
No matter how hard he works, he can't get righthanded hitters out. KW could move him as a middle reliever if he sends along a few hundred thou.

Daver
03-28-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by johnny_mostil
Of course it is Schoeneweis. Of all the players in camp with any chance of making the team, he's stinking up the joint the worst.
No matter how hard he works, he can't get righthanded hitters out. KW could move him as a middle reliever if he sends along a few hundred thou.


Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

soxtalker
03-28-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I'll be honest here I haven't gotten to see much ST action. If it is Schoney I think that is pretty unfair unless it is an attitude issue. If the guy is working on some new pitches, that shouldn't be held against him. Now is the time to work on new things. Now if his attitude sucks, that's another issue entirely and I can't speak of that because I have no idea.

Mr. Zero pretty much blows. Give him his $1 mil and SAYONARA. Cut our losses before it starts costing us real games.

I must be missing something. I thought that sending Mr. Zero down to the minors was a possibility all along. It isn't that he'd be expected to stay down there, but this would give him time to adjust to the US and baseball in this country. (I'm assuming that there are some differences in Japanese baseball.) So, why would KW be trying to light a fire under him?

fuzzy_patters
03-28-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I'll be honest here I haven't gotten to see much ST action. If it is Schoney I think that is pretty unfair unless it is an attitude issue. If the guy is working on some new pitches, that shouldn't be held against him. Now is the time to work on new things. Now if his attitude sucks, that's another issue entirely and I can't speak of that because I have no idea.

Mr. Zero pretty much blows. Give him his $1 mil and SAYONARA. Cut our losses before it starts costing us real games.

I disagree about ST. The first couple of weeks are for working on things, but players should be building some momentum by this point, and that is basically what KW said. The mystery player needs to start stepping up. Shoenweiss is the one player on this team that has yet to have a decent appearance this spring, so he is the one that fits that mold.

johnny_mostil
03-28-2004, 04:24 PM
Half a dozen runs in four innings... is Shoeny still on the hill?

CubKilla
03-28-2004, 05:04 PM
Kenny Williams should put himself in his own doghouse. One of the worst GM's in baseball.

uribe151
03-28-2004, 05:11 PM
why is kenny williams always saying stupid counter-productive things?

if there is a trade or something to announce, ok, otherwise be quiet

his comments never help us and are never useful, except to further reveal that he is CLUELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CubKilla
03-28-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by uribe151
why is kenny williams always saying stupid counter-productive things?

if there is a trade or something to announce, ok, otherwise be quiet

his comments never help us and are never useful, except to further reveal that he is CLUELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because he's an idiot who is in way over his head.

JRIG
03-28-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
Well, if it is schoenweis, then KW should give himself the boot because he's the guy who thought he'd be a decent starter and exercized the 1.75 mil option on him instead of getting a real starter for that price.

Sad thing is, it wasn't even an option. We coiuld have non-tendered him (the smart thing to do) or if we really wanted to keep him, go to arbitration.

Between the 1.8 wasted on Schoenweiss and the $1 million wasted on Shingo, that's almost $3 million in this year's payroll for nothing. Still want to blame JR for not opening the purse strings? If this guy were my GM I wouldn't either.

:KW
"JR, if you just give me a little more money, I can sign Scott and Willie to long-term extensions!"

dickallen15
03-28-2004, 05:38 PM
It would be funny if Schoenweiss is indeed the subject of Williams' ire. Considering he has been a mediocre starter, at best, his whole career, so ineffective he was moved to the bullpen by Anaheim, and traded away for nothing, it seems ridiculous that he could be counted on to be an effective starter. It seems everyone in the world knew this except KW and his staff. KW has blown so much money, it is incredible he even has a job.

beckett21
03-28-2004, 06:04 PM
All offseason we were told how gread Schoenweis was going to be. Boy, it sure is a good thing we hitched our wagon to his arm. Who needs Colon when we have a stud like Schoney??

Better late than never, Kenny--just admit you made a mistake and move on. Enough of this clown. Remember the damage Todd Ritchie did while he was here. We don't need this guy when the games actually count. Experiment over.

uribe151
03-28-2004, 06:08 PM
too bad no one can realistically say that about kw...

JRIG
03-28-2004, 06:12 PM
Best case scenario is we end up paying $1.8 million for a mediocre left-handed reliever.

If this guy starts for more than a month it'll be a total disaster.

But I've only been saying that since the end of last season.

uribe151
03-28-2004, 06:15 PM
the pitchers we gave for schoenweis are top prospects, and are certainly highly valued by the angels... both might appear with angels this season...or so i read in la times

dickallen15
03-28-2004, 06:21 PM
The Sox gave up Gary Glover, Tim Bittner and Scott Dunn, the guy they got for Jimenez. They are not top prospects.

dickallen15
03-28-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
All offseason we were told how gread Schoenweis was going to be. Boy, it sure is a good thing we hitched our wagon to his arm. Who needs Colon when we have a stud like Schoney??

Better late than never, Kenny--just admit you made a mistake and move on. Enough of this clown. Remember the damage Todd Ritchie did while he was here. We don't need this guy when the games actually count. Experiment over.


This is so true, and it is my point exactly. From his past performance, there really is no way you can think Schoenweiss would perform any different than he has this spring. This is basically what he brings to the table. I know he added a cutter, but if it were that simple to make him a better pitcher, it probably would have been done long ago. KW has unrealistic expectations of him, and is going to be stuck either overpaying for a middle reliever who can't get righties out, or eating a bunch of his contract and moving him along. Another case of poor money management by KW.

johnny_mostil
03-28-2004, 06:27 PM
Scott Dunn and Tim Bittner are "top prospects"? Dunn was the payoff for dumping D'Angelo (who got hammered in AAA last year) and Bittner's never pitched above A ball. Neither is terribly young or terribly successful. Somebody's blowing smoke if they claim those two are top prospects. I'm no Schoeny fan but the Sox basically gave up shine-ola for him.

beckett21
03-28-2004, 06:40 PM
If the case ends up that Schoney is in the bullpen (where he belongs, frankly) I would MUCH rather have let him go, not sign Zero and re-sign Sullivan for the $3 mil he got from KC (I think that was his deal). The difference there comes out to $200 K, or the equivalent of Colon's meal money for the season.

uribe151
03-28-2004, 06:48 PM
los angeles times (OWNED BY TRIB) March 16, 2004 headline to angels report:


"BITTNER AND DUNN SHOW PROMISE"

DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT APPEARING IN BIG LEAGUES, THOUGH...

SEALgep
03-28-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Please let it be Schoeneweiss. The NY papers said he was one of the lefties the Yanks were interested in. Not really anything we can get for him, though. Would be nice, and Cotts would probably take his spot, I'm assuming. Not sure it's him though.

pudge
03-28-2004, 09:28 PM
My comment is, didn't the Sox basically lead Schoey to believe he was on the team? Guillen has been saying all spring, "He's my number 3 or 4." You can't really blame Schoey for not being too worried.

This comment by KW is really mysterious.

beckett21
03-28-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by pudge
My comment is, didn't the Sox basically lead Schoey to believe he was on the team? Guillen has been saying all spring, "He's my number 3 or 4." You can't really blame Schoey for not being too worried.

This comment by KW is really mysterious.

True. But when someone performs abysmally, they can and should be subject to demotion. It's not like he has 5 Cy Young awards to his credit, or even one for that matter. No reason we should give him until June to figure out that he sucks when we know it now. Why blow two months of the season and get stuck behind the 8-ball like we seem to do year after year after year? It's still not too late. Once again I invoke the wretched Todd Richie era as a gentle reminder of how bad it can be. Why play catch-up when we already know this guy isn't going to cut it? He should have to earn his spot like the rookies and the other young arms in camp. He is by no means what one would call a star, and thereby does not deserve star treatment.

Once guys get complacent and lose their edge, it's over. Why should he care, he's gonna get his money regardless isn't he? The joke is on KW and the Sox, and he will laugh to the bank. Let's not let it drag us down further in the process. Cut the losses now, both figuratively and literally.

SEALgep
03-28-2004, 09:56 PM
Check out www.whitesox.com. It has become obvious to me that KW indeed was talking Schoney. We will see the results of this soon. It said if Schoney doesn't cut it, he may very well be replaced by Cotts. However, I guess he would be stuck into the pen because they said it may have a hampering effect on Grilli. I want to give Schoney a chance, but if he costs us Grilli, and we have to give him back to the Marlins, I will be pissed. :angry:

CWSGuy406
03-28-2004, 11:10 PM
I definitely think it's Shoenweis. Kenny said something to the effect of "there are options on the table if he doesn't come through."

That leads me to the fact that there are several starters that can be had at the right price, even some within our system: Kris Benson, Russ Ortiz, Aaron Sele, Jarod Washburn, Odalis Perez, Kaz Ishii.

I think a trade for Benson would require a prospect or two, if they ate the salary. With a trade to LA or Anahiem, PK would probably be included.

This is very interesting, I must say. Kenny is a moron for extending this guy. He and Shingo take up about 3 million dollars in payroll - I bet we all could find about 20 different ways to use that....

beckett21
03-29-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I definitely think it's Shoenweis. Kenny said something to the effect of "there are options on the table if he doesn't come through."

That leads me to the fact that there are several starters that can be had at the right price, even some within our system: Kris Benson, Russ Ortiz, Aaron Sele, Jarod Washburn, Odalis Perez, Kaz Ishii.

I think a trade for Benson would require a prospect or two, if they ate the salary. With a trade to LA or Anahiem, PK would probably be included.

This is very interesting, I must say. Kenny is a moron for extending this guy. He and Shingo take up about 3 million dollars in payroll - I bet we all could find about 20 different ways to use that....

Out of that list, I would jump all over Washburn. Wonder what they would want in return. Maybe they would take Schoeneweis back.

As for the $3 mil, I pointed out somewhere before that Sullivan is making that much this season IIRC. Bingo.

A. Cavatica
03-29-2004, 12:49 AM
The whole "affaire Schoenweis" is odd. I thought it was pretty clear that he was picked up just for the stretch run last season, and then he didn't pitch well. The Sox seemed to have no interest in bringing him back, and at the trading deadling one of the Chicago papers even reported that they hadn't. Then it came out that the had Sox renewed him at the last minute!

Re-signing him (particularly that late) seemed like an act of desperation. I don't know why the Sox would have felt desperate to keep Schoeneweis, but I can't see it any other way.

Veeky
03-29-2004, 01:10 AM
As for the $3 mil, I pointed out somewhere before that Sullivan is making that much this season IIRC. Bingo

There is no reason to think Sullivan will have a sub-4.00 ERA in AL this season IMO. I think the number of innings in his arm is starting to catch up with him.

He is getting hammered Shingo-style this ST.

mweflen
03-29-2004, 05:06 AM
It's got to be Schoeneweiss. Though that seems pretty obvious to everyone already. Personally, if I were Danny Wright, I'd be offended by all this talk of 'winning the fifth spot.' Since when did Schoeneweiss 'win' the 4th?

They guy's a creampuff on the mound, pure and simple. If he pitches every 4th day for a whole season, we're looking at a 5-plus ERA and 15 losses. I don't think he's much more good than a situational lefty.

Grilli would be an upgrade.

Why did he get extended? Because KW dropped the ball bigtime insofar as keeping or acquiring a legitimate starting option during the offseason. if my memory serves, Schoney's extension was announced shortly after Colon signed with the Angels.

white sox bill
03-29-2004, 08:15 AM
Of course Shoney's good--we gave up the great Gary Glover to get him!!

SoxOnTop
03-29-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Check out www.whitesox.com. It has become obvious to me that KW indeed was talking Schoney. We will see the results of this soon. It said if Schoney doesn't cut it, he may very well be replaced by Cotts. However, I guess he would be stuck into the pen because they said it may have a hampering effect on Grilli. I want to give Schoney a chance, but if he costs us Grilli, and we have to give him back to the Marlins, I will be pissed. :angry:


I don't understand all the excitement about Grilli. I haven't seen this kid pitch yet, but his numbers are far from decent. I think his ERA is hanging around 9.00 and that "great" outing he had the other day was against minor leaguers. What is all the hubbub about?

Rex Hudler
03-29-2004, 11:47 AM
He is another prospect that has reached the AAA level. He is a former 1st rounder and has potential that has never been reached, at least partially due to injury. Comparable to Rauch in that sense, I guess.

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I don't understand all the excitement about Grilli. I haven't seen this kid pitch yet, but his numbers are far from decent. I think his ERA is hanging around 9.00 and that "great" outing he had the other day was against minor leaguers. What is all the hubbub about? His ERA, in my mind, is a little deceiving due to a couple poor outings. However, this ST he has also showed some flashes of what he could be, a very capable starter. I don't know if he will for sure reach his potential, but the organization seems to want to keep him, Coop seemed to like him, and the Marlins were sad to see him go when we acquired in the rule 5 draft. I'm not saying he should take over the fourth or fifth spot, but he is finally healthy, and looks good enough to be the long reliever, for now. I would prefer to keep him and see if he can be what everyone else thought he could be.

owensmouth
03-29-2004, 01:13 PM
Supposedly Jarrod Washburn was available at the start of ST. I gotta tell ya, he has had the best ST of any Angels pitcher and is now probably their #2 starter. If we could pry him away from Anaheim, it would be a major heist. Problem is that we have very little they want.

Konerko? Forget it. The Angels don't need a power hitter and they don't think they need a first baseman.

Shoeneweis? They already got rid of him.

Their outfield is deep and set. That rules out Maglio and/or Lee.

Our only chance to get Washburn would be to trade one or two of our best minor leaguers. That would almost have to include Honel and Sweeney.

sas1974
03-29-2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
Our only chance to get Washburn would be to trade one or two of our best minor leaguers. That would almost have to include Honel and Sweeney.

Isn't Washburn in the last year of his contract? In addition, I have to believe that those two kids are just about untouchable at this point.

SoxOnTop
03-29-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
His ERA, in my mind, is a little deceiving due to a couple poor outings. However, this ST he has also showed some flashes of what he could be, a very capable starter. I don't know if he will for sure reach his potential, but the organization seems to want to keep him, Coop seemed to like him, and the Marlins were sad to see him go when we acquired in the rule 5 draft. I'm not saying he should take over the fourth or fifth spot, but he is finally healthy, and looks good enough to be the long reliever, for now. I would prefer to keep him and see if he can be what everyone else thought he could be.

I see. Then lets hope we don't ruin him by leaving him in the bulpen to rot and find a way to let him get consistant work at AAA.

Mickster
03-29-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I see. Then lets hope we don't ruin him by leaving him in the bulpen to rot and find a way to let him get consistant work at AAA.

Can't. Either he's on the roster, we make a deal to keep him w/ Marlins or he goes back to FLA . Simple as that. :(:

Rex Hudler
03-29-2004, 10:33 PM
Put me down for Kelly Wunsch in this derby......

sas1974
03-29-2004, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Put me down for Kelly Wunsch in this derby......

What makes you think that?

SEALgep
03-29-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
What makes you think that? He forgot where the teal button was.

owensmouth
03-29-2004, 10:42 PM
Isn't Washburn in the last year of his contract? In addition, I have to believe that those two kids are just about untouchable at this point

I think you're right on both points. Which probably says exactly why we're not going to see any improvement in the starting staff.

Rex Hudler
03-29-2004, 10:59 PM
No teal intended....... just a hunch that Wunsch isn't on as strong of footing as some think..... I may be wrong, but hey, life is about putting yourself out there.....

gogosoxgogo
03-29-2004, 11:19 PM
Come on people, it's obviously Schoeneweis. Konerko is hitting .300, Harris is hitting .270 (which is a hell of a lot better than anyone would have thought him to hit, even in spring training), and I'm shocked anyone would say it's Wunsch. Take this from Kenny's point of view. He goes out and says that Schoeneweis will be the #4 starter - even before spring training! That shows the type of confidence he had in the guy. Now Kenny is finally seeing Schoeneweis as everyone else in the world had seen him all along - as a bum! I think he is now looking at alternative options for a fourth starter, or possibily a fifth with Wright sliding into the fourth spot. All I can say is: it's about time! I never understood Kenny's confidence in Schoenweis. I don't feel bad for Kenny now as he tries to find us a capable starter, because he is the one that screwed up by resigning him for $1.75 million! Nice job Kenny, now just please fix your mistake.

unysoxfan
04-01-2004, 09:14 PM
Personaly, I hope KW is talking about DJ!