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View Full Version : Flubs trade Baby Pedro to the Braves


cheeses_h_rice
03-25-2004, 03:29 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-040325cubstrade,1,5389124.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Tekijawa
03-25-2004, 03:35 PM
WOW, I wouldn't have guessed that... I hope he wins a few CY Youngs now!!!

MRKARNO
03-25-2004, 03:37 PM
He is actually isn't that bad of a pitcher and I could easily see him having success in a braves uniform.

nodiggity59
03-25-2004, 03:37 PM
I'm scared. Every time Hendry makes a move the Scrubs get better... Hope it wears off now!

Tekijawa
03-25-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
I'm scared. Every time Hendry makes a move the Scrubs get better... Hope it wears off now!

I wonder what it feels like to have a GM that does that for a team? I guess we'll never know!

Randar68
03-25-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-040325cubstrade,1,5389124.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I would have thought he had more value than that! They practically gave him away.

Grobber33
03-25-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
WOW, I wouldn't have guessed that... I hope he wins a few CY Youngs now!!!

WONT HAPPEN! This guy is brutal! Doubt even Leo Mazzone can do anything with this goof. BTW,I,ll bet he's really closer to 30 than 25. More at www.grobber.com on the home page.
It's in the low 90's out here.

KingXerxes
03-25-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
WONT HAPPEN! This guy is brutal! Doubt even Leo Mazzone can do anything with this goof. BTW,I,ll bet he's really closer to 30 than 25. More at www.grobber.com on the home page.
It's in the low 90's out here.

He always did seem like a bit of a head case. Who is this guy the Cubs picked up - his stats read like a left-handed power pitcher, which is what they need, but in the bullpen.

OEO Magglio
03-25-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
WONT HAPPEN! This guy is brutal! Doubt even Leo Mazzone can do anything with this goof. BTW,I,ll bet he's really closer to 30 than 25. More at www.grobber.com on the home page.
It's in the low 90's out here.
I completely disagree, if Juan Cruz ever gets a shot to be starting pitcher in the majors, he will be a very solid player.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-25-2004, 03:52 PM
I might have to go to a Cubs site to see all the bad things they're saying about him now.

pudge
03-25-2004, 03:56 PM
Boston Gammons loved to claim that Cruz would be a great fill in when someone got hurt. Guess not anymore. Flubs better stay healthy.

KingXerxes
03-25-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I completely disagree, if Juan Cruz ever gets a shot to be starting pitcher in the majors, he will be a very solid player.

Time will tell - that's for sure.

On one level it doesn't seem like the Cubs got too much, but on the other hand Hendry doesn't seem like he's in love with "prospects" either (Cruz, Choi etc), or maybe it's just prospects whose names start with a "C".

jabrch
03-25-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
WONT HAPPEN! This guy is brutal! Doubt even Leo Mazzone can do anything with this goof. BTW,I,ll bet he's really closer to 30 than 25. More at www.grobber.com on the home page.
It's in the low 90's out here.

Hey Les, can you get some legit news on Prior? I feel like the team is giving static out. Nobody knew last year he had an achillies problem? He got to camp and nobody was mentioning it? Suddenly he is going to miss a start or two? What's next? Is this a slippery slope that the media is too tied to Hendry/Baker to actually do homework and find out the real news, or is this a legit story - nothing to see here - miss 1 or 2 stars and be fine?

My gut - this is worse than being reported - the team is hiding something from us.

sas1974
03-25-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Time will tell - that's for sure.

On one level it doesn't seem like the Cubs got too much, but on the other hand Hendry doesn't seem like he's in love with "prospects" either (Cruz, Choi etc), or maybe it's just prospects whose names start with a "C".

Hey, Ben Christensen! Mr. Hendry would like to speak w/ you!

sas1974
03-25-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Hey Les, can you get some legit news on Prior? I feel like the team is giving static out. Nobody knew last year he had an achillies problem? He got to camp and nobody was mentioning it? Suddenly he is going to miss a start or two? What's next? Is this a slippery slope that the media is too tied to Hendry/Baker to actually do homework and find out the real news, or is this a legit story - nothing to see here - miss 1 or 2 stars and be fine?

My gut - this is worse than being reported - the team is hiding something from us.

I'd be VERY curious to know myself. You mean to tell me it's had ALL WINTER to heal and it hasn't? Now they think that just giving him another 2 weeks will fix it right up? Something doesn't sound right to me.

KingXerxes
03-25-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
Hey, Ben Christensen! Mr. Hendry would like to speak w/ you!

Do they still have him?

sas1974
03-25-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Do they still have him?

I think he's throwing baseballs at guys in the on deck circle in AA nowadays.

Randar68
03-25-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Do they still have him?

Yep, he's been a continuous arm injury. Karma's a beyotch.

KingXerxes
03-25-2004, 04:09 PM
You know, now that I think about it, why didn't the White Sox try and trade for Cruz? It doesn't appear as though Atlanta gave up too much of anything - or doesn't anybody think he was worth it? We could sure use a fifth starter - that's for sure.

pearso66
03-25-2004, 04:15 PM
I have never seen Cruz pitch well. Plus given the fact that he was signed in 1997, as stated on ChicagoSport, he can't be all that young. To be goin on 7 years in the organization and still not amounting to anything, I wouldn't think he has anything to bring to us.

KingXerxes
03-25-2004, 04:33 PM
You're probably right. I just checked out his stats and they are pretty unimpressive.

petekat
03-25-2004, 04:38 PM
bad trade for the Cubs. They never gave him a legit shot- kept jacking him around between the rotation and pen. Should thrive under Mazzone!

Pratt is a mid-level prospect at best, #25 BA) Braves got him in the Kozlowski deal with the Rangers- (got a lot of flak on that one). Kinda wish the Sox took a flyer on Cruz

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 04:56 PM
I'd put him in our 5th spot anyday. We have room for an experiment. Hell. The 4th and 5th spots are try out for us this year.

Grobber33
03-25-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by petekat
bad trade for the Cubs. They never gave him a legit shot- kept jacking him around between the rotation and pen. Should thrive under Mazzone!

Pratt is a mid-level prospect at best, #25 BA) Braves got him in the Kozlowski deal with the Rangers- (got a lot of flak on that one). Kinda wish the Sox took a flyer on Cruz

Trust me,as Sox Fans,be thankful you DONT have Juan Cruz.
As for Prior,I will try to learn more tomorrow when they are back in Mesa. I am now at America West Arena(they still have'nt forgiven John Paxon here for that beautiful 3 pointer,or Horace for rejecting KJ's shot!)for UCONN-Vandy and Bama-Cuse tonite.
I see the Sox Sat before coming here for the Title game.

jabrch
03-25-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Trust me,as Sox Fans,be thankful you DONT have Juan Cruz.
As for Prior,I will try to learn more tomorrow when they are back in Mesa.


Thanks Les! Enjoy the game.

Mickster
03-25-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Thanks Les! Enjoy the game.

GO UCONN!! My alma mater... :D:

jeremyb1
03-25-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Trust me,as Sox Fans,be thankful you DONT have Juan Cruz.
As for Prior,I will try to learn more tomorrow when they are back in Mesa. I am now at America West Arena(they still have'nt forgiven John Paxon here for that beautiful 3 pointer,or Horace for rejecting KJ's shot!)for UCONN-Vandy and Bama-Cuse tonite.
I see the Sox Sat before coming here for the Title game.

I'd love to have him as another arm in the pen if nothing else. He has good stuff and strong K rates even if his walk rates have been a little bit too high recently.

Grobber33
03-25-2004, 05:54 PM
Yes,but his fielders all get SORE NECKS!!!

jabrch
03-25-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Yes,but his fielders all get SORE NECKS!!!


Les is right - no matter what tools he has, no matter how fast has fastball, how many Ks, how many walks - this guys sucks. He doesn't get hitters out. He doesn't win games. He doesn't go deep into games. He goes too deep into counts. He sucks.

The only stat about this turkey that matters is his suck factor - which is a 10/10

DrCrawdad
03-25-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by nodiggity59
I'm scared. Every time Hendry makes a move the Scrubs get better... Hope it wears off now!

You've glossed over some bad moves, Troy O'Leary, Lenny Harris, Estes, etc.

jeremyb1
03-25-2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Les is right - no matter what tools he has, no matter how fast has fastball, how many Ks, how many walks - this guys sucks. He doesn't get hitters out. He doesn't win games. He doesn't go deep into games. He goes too deep into counts. He sucks.

The only stat about this turkey that matters is his suck factor - which is a 10/10

This post is a good example of the lack of legitimate arguments about why Cruz is a bad pitcher in this thread. They all seem to stem from biased personal feelings and observations.

ChiSox14305635
03-25-2004, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
This post is a good example of the lack of legitimate arguments about why Cruz is a bad pitcher in this thread. They all seem to stem from biased personal feelings and observations.


I think the only thing he needs is stability. The fact that the Cubs constantly shuttled this guy between the rotation, the bullpen, and Iowa probably messed with his head. Give Mazzone time with this guy. I think he's gonna make the Cubs very sorry.........



































































Not that I wouldn't be upset with that. :D:

pearso66
03-25-2004, 08:46 PM
well my observations from watching him pitch, and seeing a stat line every once in a while, or seeing him on sportcenter, I see him getting crushed. I have yet to see this kid be dominant. If observation isnt a good way to tell if someone is good or not, why do we have scouts?

edit: Not that I am better than any scout, I was just refuting the statement of a lot of the replies seem based on observation.

Jerry_Manuel
03-25-2004, 09:06 PM
Turner Field is a good place for him to pitch.

Dadawg_77
03-25-2004, 09:08 PM
Cruz is 25. Struckout 65 and walked in 61 innings. Les, I think you are wrong on Cruz, while he may not be a starter, he at worst I think he is a soild relief pitcher. He gave up 1 hr in 51 inning of work in AAA last year, which is good indicator of future success.

DrCrawdad
03-25-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
This post is a good example of the lack of legitimate arguments about why Cruz is a bad pitcher in this thread. They all seem to stem from biased personal feelings and observations.

One of the people leading the anti-Cruz crowd is a dyed in the blue Cub fan, Les Grobber.

I wouldn't say that Cruz is a bad pitcher. But clearly Cruz has not lived up to heap of hype, that Cruz was a disappointment to Cubbie brass is clear in the quotes from Hendry in the Cubune.

When it comes to the Cubbies, personal feelings are commonly involved. This matter with Cruz is no exception.

I've been hearing for 4 years or more about this Pedro Martinez the Cubbies had in their system. Frequently Cubbie fans mocked Sox fans with, 'We've got all these great can't miss prospects in our system, unlike the flops like you Sox...'

Cruz may end up being a good ML pitcher, but as of now Cruz is a flop. If Cruz wasn't a flop they wouldn't have traded him.

...Oh, but don't you remember that Cruz won 3 games in 2002, two of which came against the 100 loss Pirates?

:)

34 Inch Stick
03-26-2004, 09:08 AM
Cruz and Garland combine to win 30 games this year. The Cubs fall one game short of the wild card because they were unable to overcome the injury to Prior and the bad pitching of Matt Clement.

Dare to dream.

jabrch
03-26-2004, 09:24 AM
have any of you Cruz supporters WATCHED him pitch? I don't give a damn about the ratio of his ankles to his armpits or any other bullcrap stat you chose to post. He is a LOSER. He throws balls over the middle of the plate that get pounded into Lake Michigan, or he walks hitters left and right.

Juan Cruz has absolutely nothing to get hitters out with.

Every other team was probably offered a shot at Juan Cruz. Pratt and Lewis for Cruz and Smyth was the best offer that the Cubs got. What makes anyone think that all the baseball people out there were wrong?

I mean, even the great Billy Beane wasn't willing to take a shot at him - he must not be any good


Les is right. If you watched Juan Cruz pitch at all, you'd know the following.
A) He doesn't have the makeup to be a reliever
B) He doesn't have the stamina or control to be a starter
C) He is a career AAAA guy

34 Inch Stick
03-26-2004, 10:25 AM
And yesterday morning Les would have been fine with Cruz being the Cub 5th starter.

Dadawg_77
03-26-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
have any of you Cruz supporters WATCHED him pitch? I don't give a damn about the ratio of his ankles to his armpits or any other bullcrap stat you chose to post. He is a LOSER. He throws balls over the middle of the plate that get pounded into Lake Michigan, or he walks hitters left and right.

Juan Cruz has absolutely nothing to get hitters out with.

Every other team was probably offered a shot at Juan Cruz. Pratt and Lewis for Cruz and Smyth was the best offer that the Cubs got. What makes anyone think that all the baseball people out there were wrong?

I mean, even the great Billy Beane wasn't willing to take a shot at him - he must not be any good


Les is right. If you watched Juan Cruz pitch at all, you'd know the following.
A) He doesn't have the makeup to be a reliever
B) He doesn't have the stamina or control to be a starter
C) He is a career AAAA guy


blah blah blah. The Cubs wanted some pen help in return esp a lefty. Which they got. You statement on evaulating a player, make me believe you really don't understand baseball. A pitchers job is to get guys out. The best way for a pitcher to do that is a K. Also lower home run ratio is something most good pitchers have in the minors. A high K rate and lower gopher ball rate is something you love to see from pitcher who is 25.

jabrch
03-26-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
blah blah blah. The Cubs wanted some pen help in return esp a lefty. Which they got. You statement on evaulating a player, make me believe you really don't understand baseball. A pitchers job is to get guys out. The best way for a pitcher to do that is a K. Also lower home run ratio is something most good pitchers have in the minors. A high K rate and lower gopher ball rate is something you love to see from pitcher who is 25.


dawg - Cruz doesn't have a "low HR rate". i never said that HR rate isn't important.

The best way for a pitcher to do that is a K.
As far as that goes - I am surely not going to agree with that. The best way to get a hitter out is with a one pitch groundout/popout. Ks are great - I like them. But if you are a pitcher who is constantly going 3-2, 2-2, 3-1, and getting your share of Ks and your share of hits, you will, like Juan Cruz, not last 5 innings very often.

I am only saying you can't look at a guy's speed on a gun or at his ratios in AAA and say if they are a good pitcher or not. You can talk about likelihoods and probabilities, but you can't draw conclusions from that. Ultimately, however, you have to watch guys pitch and look at the exact outcomes (outs and ERs), not the derivitive outcomes (ratios and non-traditional stats)

If you watched Cruz pitch much you couldn't argue the fact that this guy can not get big league hitters out. The Cubs have a legit shot at winning the NL pennant this year. They had no room for him. He wouldn't be in their top 6 list for SPs (7 when Guzman gets back in May) and he doesn't have the head to be a reliever.

Stealing from the immortal words of John McKay - he can't be a starter and he can't be a reliever - I have no other idea's when to pitch him.

Cruz may some day develop into something just fine - but right now he is a piece of junk. Maybe Mazzoni can make him into a pitcher - but if I had a team that was a legit contender, I wouldn't want Cruz on it.


I love all the people here who seem to enjoy questioning other's knowledge of the game. grrrrr