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Hangar18
03-25-2004, 02:25 PM
With all the hoopla surrounding our young players in the minors,
Im hoping the SOX dont do what they always do, and help Stock the Bostons and NewYorks of the world with a .300 plus hitter, just now reaching his prime and SUperStar status, simply because they want to CHeap Out and use an up-and-coming Player. Weve been burned too many times using this kind of thinking (Foulke for Koch) Sign Maggs to an extension,
one of the 3 rookies (sweeney, anderson, reed) can fight for CF
next year. an outfield of Lee, Sweeney, Ordonez next year would be phenomenal

batmanZoSo
03-25-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
With all the hoopla surrounding our young players in the minors,
Im hoping the SOX dont do what they always do, and help Stock the Bostons and NewYorks of the world with a .300 plus hitter, just now reaching his prime and SUperStar status, simply because they want to CHeap Out and use an up-and-coming Player. Weve been burned too many times using this kind of thinking (Foulke for Koch) Sign Maggs to an extension,
one of the 3 rookies (sweeney, anderson, reed) can fight for CF
next year. an outfield of Lee, Sweeney, Ordonez next year would be phenomenal

For him to go via FA would be devastating. Every time we let someone go for money we never find a replacement. I don't care about Reed, Sweeney, or Borchard. You never know. One of them is 80% bust already. We just gotta trim the fat and we can easily afford him.

Isn't Sweeney 19? He's got two more years before we see him playing every day. My guess would be Lee, Reed in center, and Ordonez.

jabrch
03-25-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
With all the hoopla surrounding our young players in the minors,
Im hoping the SOX dont do what they always do, and help Stock the Bostons and NewYorks of the world with a .300 plus hitter, just now reaching his prime and SUperStar status, simply because they want to CHeap Out and use an up-and-coming Player. Weve been burned too many times using this kind of thinking (Foulke for Koch) Sign Maggs to an extension,
one of the 3 rookies (sweeney, anderson, reed) can fight for CF
next year. an outfield of Lee, Sweeney, Ordonez next year would be phenomenal


Reed before Sweeney, right?

MRKARNO
03-25-2004, 02:53 PM
We need to keep Maggs, but only at the right price. 5 years 65 million sounds about right. Much more than that and Maggs would be getting too much. If they fail to offer him at least 4 years at 13 mil per, I will be upset.

jabrch
03-25-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
We need to keep Maggs, but only at the right price. 5 years 65 million sounds about right. Much more than that and Maggs would be getting too much. If they fail to offer him at least 4 years at 13 mil per, I will be upset.

Isn't that more than Vlad Guerrero and Miguel Tejada got? Didn't we already offer him 4 years at 52 and he said he didn't want to negotiate until he is a FA?

I agree MRK - we need to not kill what little financial flexibility we have in the process of keeping Magglio.

MRKARNO
03-25-2004, 03:05 PM
Vlad got 5 years and 65 mil. This is what Maggs plan to base his contract off of. 5 years and 60 mil might be enough to keep him

habibharu
03-25-2004, 03:07 PM
i love Mags but i think that it would be better to let him go. then we can sign renteria. an OF of lee, rowand, and reed, borchard, or FA isnt too bad.

SoxBoy14
03-25-2004, 03:18 PM
I say we keep Maggs as long as we can. He provides excellent hitting and fielding. Plus when idiot flub fans boast about Sosa we can simply reply "Who needs that stiff when you got Magglio at RF". He's a great player and I believe we should hold on to him.

Hangar18
03-25-2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by SoxBoy14
I say we keep Maggs as long as we can. He provides excellent hitting and fielding. Plus when idiot flub fans boast about Sosa we can simply reply "Who needs that stiff when you got Magglio at RF". He's a great player and I believe we should hold on to him.

I just became very Horrified Just Now. Watch the CUBS
go after Magglio next year .......... that would make me quit
watching baseball altogether, I swear

uribe151
03-25-2004, 03:21 PM
of course i hope we keep magglio
i hope we keep carlos lee, too

THEY ARE GREAT BALLPLAYERS!

but it's not my money

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-25-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I just became very Horrified Just Now. Watch the CUBS
go after Magglio next year .......... that would make me quit
watching baseball altogether, I swear
Yeah. The cubs would get rid of alou after this season and then put magglio in left for 2005 and then once sammy's contract is up, they'd put him in right. That'd be the worst thing EVER. The Sox better sign him no matter whatkind of outfield prospects they have in the minors. Most of the time these highly touted prospects for the sox come up and DO NOTHING! Magglio is a proven all star and is the best player in the white sox organization. You just won't get another Magglio from one of those prospects in 2005.

SoxBoy14
03-25-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I just became very Horrified Just Now. Watch the CUBS
go after Magglio next year .......... that would make me quit
watching baseball altogether, I swear

Boston would pick him up before the Cubs could offer him a deal.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-25-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by SoxBoy14
Boston would pick him up before the Cubs could offer him a deal.
They'd have to dump Nixon or Manny. Nixon just got a contract extension after all of the magglio trade talks. I highly doubt they'd put Magglio in CF or at DH. They'd have to dump Manny which would be hard or Nixon. I think they're going to keep nixon.

Frater Perdurabo
03-25-2004, 03:36 PM
I hope the Sox re-sign Maggs. However, if Maggs decides that he wants to test the free agent waters, and the Sox make a fair offer, but the Yankees or Red Sox offer $80+ million over 5 years, then I would not be pissed at the Sox for failing to sign him.

I'd hate to lose him, so the Sox better make a deliberate and honest effort to sign him this season.

Of course, if the Sox pull a 2003 Marlins and go on to win the whole shebang, then there will be plenty of money to sign Maggs!

SoxBoy14
03-25-2004, 04:13 PM
Can he still become a free agent this season?

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 04:25 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Maggs wants Vlad type money, I'll pack his bags for him. He isn't worth it. It's that simple.

guillen4life13
03-25-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Maggs wants Vlad type money, I'll pack his bags for him. He isn't worth it. It's that simple.

I think that Maggs is just a small bit under Vlad's level, and his contract should probably be set accordingly.

Now, considering the diminishing market, I think a 5 year, 60 million dollar contract should be enough. If Maggs rejects a deal like that, then NY or Boston can have him. At that point it makes more sense to bring up one of the prospects, and use the money not spent on Ordonez to fill another hole in this team, and as we all know, there are a few of those.

2B
SP's
Closer
SS

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 04:50 PM
I'd definitely trade him for infield/pitching prospects right now. Also, while I think Maggs is a great player, he simply doesn't compare to Vlad in any way. I don't understand why he would even compare his market value as such. I'm not a big numbers guy. However, compare all of their numbers. Also, compare the age, speed and fielding statistics. The health issue is also pretty mute. Vlad's injury history isn't as severe as some may suggest.

Frankfan4life
03-25-2004, 05:14 PM
I hope the Sox re-sign Maggs. However, if Maggs decides that he wants to test the free agent waters, and the Sox make a fair offer, but the Yankees or Red Sox offer $80+ million over 5 years, then I would not be pissed at the Sox for failing to sign him.

I think Maggs has stated that he wants to remain with the Sox. To me that's even more incentive to get it done.

stillz
03-25-2004, 05:14 PM
Talking salaries makes me sick to my stomach.

Maggs seems like a reasonable guy. I think his mid-season stats + sox division standing will dictate if he accepts a solid sox offer. And based on the more than adequate dollars they waved at that fat-ass angel, I think Jerry and Co. have a shot.

Of course, these money-grubbing agents will convince Magglio to think nothing of loyalty and only about his pockets. Ugh.

I hope Frank drives in 125 runs and they give him a new deal. From the sound of it, he'd sign for sure.

munchman33
03-25-2004, 05:33 PM
Right now, the strength of our minor league system is in outfielders, with Reed, Borchard, and Sweeney. Giving Magglio a multi year deal for tons of money simply doesn't make much sense.

We can be both cheap and productive in right field, while spending money in other places....Well, in theory.

-Munchie

Mickster
03-25-2004, 05:46 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again...over and over...

1. I love Maggs. I love Valentin.

2. I don't love Maggs if he wants Vlad cash. I hate Jose at 5m. I despise GDIPaulie at 8m.

3. Sox are not afraid to pay 12-14m per for the right player.

4. Renteria would look mighty fine wearing the black pinstripes, so would Vidro at 2nd.

5. A combo of Renteria / Vidro up the middle long term would be incredible and would not cost us that much more than we are paying Maggs and Jose in terms of today's salary.

6. There is no way St. Louis can sign Renteria long term with their current contracts. Same goes for Montreal. As has been previously stated above, we have a ton of promising OF's coming up in the system.

Buh..by Maggs. IMHO.

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 05:46 PM
Maggs has already turned down a very reasonable offer. I hate to say it, but he is expendable. Frankly, with him turning down that money and our wealth of minor league outfield talent, I'd ship him ASAP. I'd love to see him retire in a Sox uniform, but reality dictates that this isn't going to happen, regardless of the scenario.


I'd rather focus on guys that are willing to commit to the White Sox in the offseason, like Lee. Is Lee the calibre of player that Maggs is? Certainly not. However, Maggs certainly isn't the calibre of player that he apparently thinks he is.

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 05:49 PM
BTW, the possiblity of Maggs wearing Cubby blue has absolutely NOTHING to do with our decision. After he leaves this team, he can play for the Twins for all I care. They're a team that I hate far more than the Cubs.

batmanZoSo
03-25-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
Yeah. The cubs would get rid of alou after this season and then put magglio in left for 2005 and then once sammy's contract is up, they'd put him in right. That'd be the worst thing EVER. The Sox better sign him no matter whatkind of outfield prospects they have in the minors. Most of the time these highly touted prospects for the sox come up and DO NOTHING! Magglio is a proven all star and is the best player in the white sox organization. You just won't get another Magglio from one of those prospects in 2005.

Say what you want about Reinsdorf but even he wouldn't let Magglio become a cub.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/reinsy.jpg "Nope"

See?

A. Cavatica
03-25-2004, 09:17 PM
Maggs is the only guy on the team who's arguably the best at his position in the league. I'd obviously prefer to dump Konerko, Koch, and/or Valentin and extend Maggs another year. I'd also trade Lee before Maggs.

That said, though, Maggs is at the point where he commands big bucks for a long time, and his skills are going to start eroding. I don't think we can afford to give him a long-term deal. It's always better to trade a player a year too soon than a year too late, so if we can't negotiate a reasonable extension then I think we have to deal him.

soxtalker
03-25-2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
[B....It's always better to trade a player a year too soon than a year too late, so if we can't negotiate a reasonable extension then I think we have to deal him. [/B]

Wasn't that the Branch Rickey philosophy? I agree. Maggs is terrific, but I would not be unhappy if they traded him tomorrow for several pitching and/or infield prospects. It does look like we have several outfielders who are on the cusp. I know that many other posters don't have confidence in prospects, but KW has shown that he can use them as currency in future moves.

Having said all of this, I thought that I heard KW state in an interview on the SCORE yesterday that he was not trading Maggs.

Daver
03-25-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Maggs is the only guy on the team who's arguably the best at his position in the league.

Magglio is not even arguably the best RFer in the AL,he lacks both range and arm.He is a good RFer for his bat,but that is about it.

blueeyes33
03-25-2004, 09:35 PM
how long are we actually gunna hold on to konerko? could we get anything worth while for him?

MRKARNO
03-25-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Magglio is not even arguably the best RFer in the AL,he lacks both range and arm.He is a good RFer for his bat,but that is about it.

I hear that Guerrero guy is pretty good.

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 09:42 PM
Thank you Daver. At this point, I've written Maggs off. He isn't as valuable to this team, in terms of money being spent in the right places, as he was in the past.

I seriously love Maggs' game. But if he wants to go: Bye!

jabrch
03-25-2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by blueeyes33
how long are we actually gunna hold on to konerko? could we get anything worth while for him?

Not only can we not get anything worthwhile for him at this point in time - but we couldn't give him away for FREE. Unless he turns it around, we would have to pay someone to take him.

Whitesox029
03-25-2004, 10:09 PM
Sometimes you have to take into account more than just what a player can do (granted, that itself is pretty impressive in Maggs' case). There's still the fan favorite factor. The Sox whine about no one attending games and then they go and let players like Maggs go who are not only awesome but adored by 99% of the Sox fan population. Then there's the team chemistry factor. Throw away the spark plug and you're going to have some car trouble. That's not to say Maggs is a spark plug, per se, but as Frank put it a few days ago "This is Magglio's team now." He is to the 2004 (and 2005) Sox what Frank was to the 1993 and 1994 Sox.
I won't even get into Konerko because frankly I'm puzzled why everyone's so down on him after one bad season. We Sox fans should all know by now that every time we trade someone like Konerko he goes on to excel in his first season away (Ventura and Foulke come to mind).

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 10:14 PM
Honestly, nobody is going to games because Maggs is here. We go to games because we're Sox fans. That's it. Maggs isn't Frank. Those teams in 93 and 94 would wipe the floor with the teams that Maggs "leads." I'm not a Maggs hater. I'm trying to be realistic. We can do a hell of a lot more with the money we pay Maggs. He's not a leader. He never wanted to be. That's fine. His production simply doesn't match the money he expects. It's simple. It has nothing to do with "cheap uncle jerry and the horrible GM that's Kenny."

JohnBasedowYoda
03-26-2004, 12:34 AM
If they let Maggs go i'm a Cardinals fan
:ohno

MRKARNO
03-26-2004, 12:49 AM
I dont know if Maggs really is a game-changer. I've always held the belief that Frank in the 3 hole was the key to all white sox success. We will see this year how well Maggs will excell in the 3 hole. Maggs will likely have a huge year in front of Frank, but let me remind you that if it is because of Frank, then Thomas is the one who is not expendable and Maggs is. Sweeney might be able to come in this year and hit .300 with 25 homers in front of Frank. If this is true, then Maggs becomes expendable and the White Sox should then focus their resources on long term answers to starting pitching, shortstop and second base.

blueeyes33
03-26-2004, 12:56 AM
maggs is great.he puts numbers on the board.and hes an asset.but like taylor street said, if we can get things we need , suchas some pitching talent than im all for trading him off.i like the guyand wouldnt really wanna see him go but youhave to think of whats best for the team as a whole byfilling up some holes that we have.(example, our bullpen sucks)

and as for konerko, last year wasnt just a bad season for him.when i would watch him play it didnt seem like he even tried like he did in prev years.i think his time is over.i dunno.what do i know tho.after this year if he is not up to par than is it just a shoddy year again or will u agree that hes shot

blueeyes33
03-26-2004, 12:57 AM
and what bar is that in that picture above?

JohnBasedowYoda
03-26-2004, 01:04 AM
the looks on the faces of those guys symbolizes how i feel about the possibility of maggs leavin and me becoming a cards fan

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-26-2004, 01:07 AM
I know someone here knows what bar that is. I remember reading that the picture was from one of the ALDS games in 2000 vs the mariners. I know it was a southside bar but I can't remember which one.

WhiteSox = Life
03-26-2004, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by blueeyes33
and what bar is that in that picture above?

The empty bar of melancholy and despair that exists in every Sox fan's heart where the liquor never stops flowin', the stomach never stops turnin', the mind never stops cryin', and the soul never stops achin'.

Nah, who am I kidding, I don't really know.

maurice
03-26-2004, 12:21 PM
Maggs is far from the best RF in AL, but Marte might be the best LH reliever in the AL (to apply a very broad definition of "position").

Hangar18
03-26-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I dont know if Maggs really is a game-changer. ..........
White Sox should then focus their resources on long term answers to starting pitching, shortstop and second base.

Why do all the GOOD TEAMS like the Yankees for instance, Have their EYES Set on Magglio then if he isnt so important ???? that alone should tell you if you want to "get rid" of guys like that.
Point is, No world series since 1959. we need to change our Mindset in this organization.
Starting Pitching (Colon), shortstop (KazMatsui),
and SecondBase (Ray Durham) are things we shouldnt be looking for, considering what we HAD, and What we COULDVE HAD

Paulwny
03-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Why do all the GOOD TEAMS like the Yankees for instance, Have their EYES Set on Magglio then if he isnt so important ???? that alone should tell you if you want to "get rid" of guys like that.
Point is, No world series since 1959. we need to change our Mindset in this organization.
Starting Pitching (Colon), shortstop (KazMatsui),
and SecondBase (Ray Durham) are things we shouldnt be looking for, considering what we HAD, and What we COULDVE HAD

The big picture, JR and some other owners are happy to be competative in their div and win that div. Other owners want a WS ring.

TaylorStSox
03-26-2004, 01:32 PM
See, this is what I don't get. Some people just want to bash JR. The truth is, he shouldn't overpay for anyone. If Maggs wants more than he's worth, then let him go. I hate JR too but if we're going to overpay for a player, it shouldn't be Maggs IMO.

surfdudes
03-26-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Maggs is far from the best RF in AL, but Marte might be the best LH reliever in the AL (to apply a very broad definition of "position").

And if Maggs is "far" from the best RF in the A.L., who, praytell,
is at such a level above him?

Bobby Higgonson?
Tim Salmon?
Trot Nixon?
Aubrey Huff?
Frank Catalonotto?
Kenin Millar?
Jay Gibbons?


I see Sheffield, Vlad, and Suzuki as the upper tier and I can easily create the argument that Maggs is as valuable to a team as any of these guys.

batmanZoSo
03-26-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by surfdudes
And if Maggs is "far" from the best RF in the A.L., who, praytell,
is at such a level above him?

Bobby Higgonson?
Tim Salmon?
Trot Nixon?
Aubrey Huff?
Frank Catalonotto?
Kenin Millar?
Jay Gibbons?


I see Sheffield, Vlad, and Suzuki as the upper tier and I can easily create the argument that Maggs is as valuable to a team as any of these guys.

We never appreciate what we got til it's gone. The Ray Durham fan club has doubled in the last year and a half. If you don't keep Magglio or get major major talent for him then you have no interest in winning and don't deserve fans. You don't win titles with Valentins and Konerkos.

maurice
03-26-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by surfdudes
if Maggs is "far" from the best RF in the A.L., who, praytell,
is at such a level above him?

You answered your own question. As others have mentioned, Guerrero is significantly better. Suzuki probably is better, depending on how much you value speed and defense. If you don't value those things very much and prefer a straight-up slugger in RF, Shefield has several 1.000+ OPS seasons to his credit. The closest Maggs got to 1.000 was his .978 career high in 2002. His second best was last season's .926.

I know this comes as a shock to many Sox fans, but Aubrey Huff's 2003 season was comparable to Magglio's (at a tiny fraction of the cost). Maggs is a good player, and I'd like to keep him around, but he's crazy if he thinks he deserves $15 million per year. IMHO, Maggs will walk at the end of the season (if he's not traded sooner) and be replaced by a Sox minor leaguer.

CubKiller5
03-26-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Suzuki probably is better, depending on how much you value speed and defense.

Ding! Ding! Ding!
That's the best comparison for Maggs value to the White Sox.
He is no more valuable to the SOX than Ichiro is to the M's.
Therefore he should not be paid a dime more than Ichiro.
Want numbers to back this up?
Ichiro 296 TB, 111 R, 62 RBI, 27 SB
Maggs 331 TB, 95 R, 99 RBI, 6 SB

Ichiro is a lead off hitter so you never expect him to be an RBI leader. But look at the difference in stolen bases. Consider that despite an RBI differential of 37, the TB differential is only 35.

The most I am willing to do for Maggs is this. A 35 differential is about 10%, so I will pay him 10% more than Ichiro BUT that's IT!

Ichiro signed a 44/4 deal with the M's this year.
I'll go as high as 60/5 for Maggs.

surfdudes
03-26-2004, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
You answered your own question. As others have mentioned, Guerrero is significantly better. Suzuki probably is better, depending on how much you value speed and defense. If you don't value those things very much and prefer a straight-up slugger in RF, Shefield has several 1.000+ OPS seasons to his credit. The closest Maggs got to 1.000 was his .978 career high in 2002. His second best was last season's .926.

I know this comes as a shock to many Sox fans, but Aubrey Huff's 2003 season was comparable to Magglio's (at a tiny fraction of the cost). Maggs is a good player, and I'd like to keep him around, but he's crazy if he thinks he deserves $15 million per year. IMHO, Maggs will walk at the end of the season (if he's not traded sooner) and be replaced by a Sox minor leaguer.

Carreer Avgs bases on 100 abís


Avg HR RBI
Sheffied
RISP .312 6.5 56
Bases Loaded .280 8.3 94

Ordonez
RISP .318 6.1 63
Bases Loaded .351 6.7 98

Vlad Gurerro
RISP .325 5.2 47
Bases Loaded .242 1.5 82


Does this mean Ordonez is more clutch in situations?
Fielding percentage is negligable among all three, but I find find age (Ordonez is 30, Shef is 35, Vlad 27) and Ordonez's consistancy so far in his career something that the Sox need to keep in this lineup, if they are ever to field a champion. If Aubry Huff can put up comparable #s with Maggs , for say, 3 more years, then IMHO he can be added to the argument. Ichiro might be the best alternative, being that he makes so many things happen (runs, SB's, etc....) Vlad may be significantly better, but this is subjective at best, being he played in Montreal. I'll wait and see how he fairs in a lineup with Garrett Anderson and Troy Glaus, and Erstaad. Sheff came from controversy and trouble in L.A., and now he's wrapped up in the whole steroid thing, So I am sticking with Ordonez, seeing that he is entering probably his most productive 5-7 year stretch right now.
Go Sox

A. Cavatica
03-26-2004, 08:36 PM
I said Maggs was arguably the best RF in the AL. I wasn't thinking -- forgot about Vlad coming over. But I would take Maggs over Sheffield, particularly at this point in their careers and with the cloud hanging over Sheffield.

Apart from Vlad, Suzuki is the only AL RF who I think is in the same class as Magglio. He's a great player, but last year his OBP was .352 compared to Magglio's .380, and his SA was .436 to Magglio's .546. Last season, Maggs was a far better hitter.

Nixon and Huff turned in good seasons (.975 and .922 OPS, respectively) but Maggs was at .926 and has produced at that level for far longer.

Whitesox029
03-26-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I dont know if Maggs really is a game-changer. I've always held the belief that Frank in the 3 hole was the key to all white sox success. We will see this year how well Maggs will excell in the 3 hole. Maggs will likely have a huge year in front of Frank, but let me remind you that if it is because of Frank, then Thomas is the one who is not expendable and Maggs is. Sweeney might be able to come in this year and hit .300 with 25 homers in front of Frank. If this is true, then Maggs becomes expendable and the White Sox should then focus their resources on long term answers to starting pitching, shortstop and second base.
When Sweeney goes .300-25 then we'll talk. That's an awfully big if. The kid's just out of high school for crying out loud. We can't keep the same cycle that we always keep because it just isn't working. You can't rely on new guys to come in and take Maggs' place without the team missing a beat. That's just not realistic. And then in 5 years you will be saying "Well we have to trade away [insert name of 2005's long term answer to SS/2B/SP problem here] because he's asking too much money. We need a long term solution to our right fielder problem" The long term solution to our right fielder problem is already there, and he's wearing #30.

owensmouth
03-27-2004, 09:47 AM
Look at it this way: We can trade away Konerko, let Maagglio and Valentine and Loaiza leave at the end of the year to find bigger, unreasonable paychecks and play our youngsters.

We can also call ourselves the Brewers II.

Deadguy
03-27-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by owensmouth
Look at it this way: We can trade away Konerko, let Maagglio and Valentine and Loaiza leave at the end of the year to find bigger, unreasonable paychecks and play our youngsters.

We can also call ourselves the Brewers II.


Why create a phony account saying you reside in California, KW?

At least the Brew Crew have a solid farm system to fall back on. Wouldn't it be nice to look forward to having Prince Fielder at 1B instead of the GIDP King? :D:

owensmouth
03-27-2004, 01:20 PM
How many people are going to a Brewer's game this year because they know that Prince Fielder is in their minor league system?

SoxxoS
03-27-2004, 01:52 PM
I agree with whoever brought up Renteria. SS is a lot harder to fill than RF, and arguably more important. Show Jose the door, and use Maggs money to sign Renteria.

That is all based upon the fact Reed, Sweeney, or Borchard can show they can play consistantly in the majors.

Imagine if Borchard reaches his potential this year, and turns into a superstar.

soltrain21
03-27-2004, 01:56 PM
Don't worry guys, we got Timo.

Deadguy
03-27-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
How many people are going to a Brewer's game this year because they know that Prince Fielder is in their minor league system?

They're going to Miller Park because the seats are green. :D:

maurice
03-27-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Vlad may be significantly better, but this is subjective at best, being he played in Montreal.

I don't think it's subjective at all. If you ask every MLB GM to identify the best RF in the AL, I'd expect every single one of them to name Guerrero over Ordonez. If I'm right, that's pretty darn objective. I'd rather have Ordonez than Shefield as well, which is why I prefaced my comments and juxtaposed him with Suzuki, who I would rate a distant second behind Guerrero but just ahead of Ordonez.

That being said, if Ordonez and Valentin walk as FAs after this season, that frees up $19 million to fill holes which cannot be filled through minor league call ups. JR may decide to cheap out and pocket the cash, but even under that scenario, Ordonez will not return. I can't see any way this Sox management team brings him back.

Hangar18
03-27-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by CubKiller5
Ding! Ding! Ding!
That's the best comparison for Maggs value to the White Sox.
He is no more valuable to the SOX than Ichiro is to the M's.
Therefore he should not be paid a dime more than Ichiro.
Want numbers to back this up?
Ichiro 296 TB, 111 R, 62 RBI, 27 SB
Maggs 331 TB, 95 R, 99 RBI, 6 SB

Ichiro is a lead off hitter so you never expect him to be an RBI leader. But look at the difference in stolen bases. Consider that despite an RBI differential of 37, the TB differential is only 35.

The most I am willing to do for Maggs is this. A 35 differential is about 10%, so I will pay him 10% more than Ichiro BUT that's IT!

Ichiro signed a 44/4 deal with the M's this year.
I'll go as high as 60/5 for Maggs.

This is an EXCELLENT post, well thought out, I totally AGREE
That being Said.........>WE HAVE TO KEEP MAGGS

Hangar18
03-27-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by maurice

I know this comes as a shock to many Sox fans, but Aubrey Huff's 2003 season was comparable to Magglio's (at a tiny fraction of the cost). Maggs is a good player, and I'd like to keep him around, but he's crazy if he thinks he deserves $15 million per year. IMHO, Maggs will walk at the end of the season (if he's not traded sooner) and be replaced by a Sox minor leaguer.

What Happens though.....when an Aubrey Huff starts to consistently keep hitting like that? That Tiny Fraction doesnt stay TINY for long. Fact is, the WhiteSOx have tried to win Championships by NOT paying for their players and LEtting them go elsewhere (and win elsewhere). NO WORLD SERIES SINCE 1959, somewhere along the line, were gonna have to change our way of thinking .............

jabrch
03-27-2004, 06:27 PM
Hangar, I can't think of many players we developed, then let go who then went on to win win championships elsewhere. Am I overlooking a bunch of guys?

Veeky
03-27-2004, 09:49 PM
SOX dont do what they always do, and help Stock the Bostons and NewYorks of the world with a .300 plus hitter, just now reaching his prime and SUperStar status, simply because they want to CHeap Out and use an up-and-coming Player. Weve been burned too many times using this kind of thinking (Foulke for Koch) Sign Maggs to an extension,
one of the 3 rookies (sweeney, anderson, reed) can fight for CF
next year. an outfield of Lee, Sweeney, Ordonez next year would be phenomenal

1. 300 hitter is not what .300 hitter used to be in 1968.

2. Magglio is not "just reaching his prime". He is 30. He has been in his prime for 3 years now. Historical peak occurs at 28.
Sosa, Boone, Walker and the rest of the 'Roiders are exceptions, so unless Maggs starts juicing....

3. Magglio is an all-star, but not a super star. You won't see his name worn on jerseys in Sydney or Beijin or Moscow. You won't even see it in many places in Chicago. He is probably not even a HOF'er -- by the time he is ready for induction, thanks to Bonds, Mac, A-Rod, Sosa and Griffey, standards will be raised. Yes, the fan backlash will occur when he leaves, but it will be FAR from lethal, especially if we win this year like we should have in 2002 and 2003.

4. You're absolutely right about being burned on "bargains" like Ritchie, White and Koch.

5. Which of course doesn't mean that we can or SHOULD give Magglio the 5 years/70-75 Mill he reportedly wants. 25% of current payroll and nearly 30% of the 2002-2003 payrolls? Are you kidding me! That's Bonds/A-Rod territory. Magglio would have to come through with 1050 OPS/140+ RBI seasons to justify it.

6. Sweeney just turned 19. Anderson played amateur ball this time a year ago. There are only so many Miguel Cabreras and Albert Pujolses. There is NO way they should be up before 2006. Have we not learned anything from Mike Caruso?

7. I have no problem with Rowand-Reed-Anderson-Borchard fighting for 3 spots in 2006. Cheap, solid outfield with potentil to be more than that. Sweeney waiting in the wings in case 2 falter. Hopefully the money saved on Carlos and Magglio will go toward building a hellava starting 3 that will bring us to the promised land......

Veeky
03-29-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Magglio is not even arguably the best RFer in the AL,he lacks both range and arm.He is a good RFer for his bat,but that is about it.

Damn finally somebody said it.

People still can't get used to the fact that Magglio's defense, both in terms of range/arm/accuracy is not what it was in 1997-2000. I have to read how Rowand can't make a throw to the plate to save his life all the while witnessing Maggglio blow 3 medium-difficulty plays at the plate in one friggin' game last year.

He's gotten older, more bulked up and generally less interested in busting his ass. Hell, he used to be the second fastest runner behind Durham back '01.

Now, he is just a little above average. Perfect example against the Cubs: Zambrano can't find the plate with 1 out and men at 1st/2nd Sox leading 1-0; Magglio chops a hopper that 2-3 years ago he would have been safe on, thus loading the bases with 1 out....But, no, he got out of the box late, wasn't running at 100%, barely able to arrive at first as the ball hit the mitt --- and by not beating out a beatable play, he gave the ump license to interpret the tie as he saw fit --- he called Maggs out. Zambrano was let off the hook, settled down and we lost that game by a run. Little things like that accumulate over 162 game season.

Whoever told him he should be like Manny Ramirez or Sammy Sosa should have kept their mouths shut -- I liked Maggs of 2000-2002 more.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-29-2004, 01:23 AM
I sort of agree with you. While Magglio is great, he wasn't a top OF in 2003. He lacked the hustle that he's had in previous years. If he's like that in 2004, I can't say it's worth a team with a tight budget like us to give him a big contract.

Veeky
03-29-2004, 01:29 AM
I agree with whoever brought up Renteria. SS is a lot harder to fill than RF, and arguably more important. Show Jose the door, and use Maggs money to sign Renteria.

How about no? I'd rather Sox re-sign Jose after this season to a Kenny Lofton-type (think 2002/2003, not 2004) 2-year deal contract than waste 10-11+ Mill on Renteria who's newly-found power and bulk scare me a little, if you know what I mean.......Believe it or not, but ever since Santana revamped Jose's defensive approach back in May of last year, he's been a good fielder -- including ZERO errors this spring. Now that another weakness, his putrid RH-hitting, has been eliminated, I think he is worth more at 1 or 2 Mill per than Renteria is at 10-12 per. Add his clubhouse/off-field value to the equation, and there is no doubt it my mind. I do agree that 5 Mill is a little too much -- Kenny got played on that one..


That being Said.........>WE HAVE TO KEEP MAGGS

I think the equation should be along the lines of:

Sox win the division and attract a bunch of new fans to the renovated park + Magglio has a true career year + resonable, 4/55-type contract demands = WE HAVE TO KEEP HIM.

Veeky
03-29-2004, 12:40 PM
If he's like that in 2004, I can't say it's worth a team with a tight budget like us to give him a big contract.

Absolutely.

What's the point of paying someone upwards of 15 Mill if your payroll is 45-50 (which it could very well be the case if 2004 shapes up to be a carbon copy of 2002 and 2003)?

Even Giants wouldn't pay Bonds 20 Mill if their payroll was around 60 -- and Bonds is Bonds is Bonds.

I mean, in basketball you could pay Michael Jordan a third of the payroll and it would give you an instant chance at winning the Title as you only have 4 other starters to worry about and they don't even have to be tha good since MJ could theoretically have the ball every other possession and shut down his man on defense -- in other words, you get great value for that 25 Million you shelled out.

In baseball, not only are there 8 other hitters, 5 starting pitchers and BP guys that have to be paid, but Magglio HIMSELF simply doesn't possess the same "value" simply because every hitter has to take his turn -- even if he goes on a huge streak, he could always be pitched around.

Also, in baseball defense is not as important as in other sports: Magglio can't catch gappers and leap 50 feet in the air to take away a homer......whereas MJ could shut down Kobe, Iverson, etc and singlehandedly affect the way opposing teams runs their offense.

Mickster
03-29-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Absolutely.

What's the point of paying someone upwards of 15 Mill if your payroll is 45-50 (which it could very well be the case if 2004 shapes up to be a carbon copy of 2002 and 2003)?

Even Giants wouldn't pay Bonds 20 Mill if their payroll was around 60 -- and Bonds is Bonds is Bonds.

I mean, in basketball you could pay Michael Jordan a third of the payroll and it would give you an instant chance at winning the Title as you only have 4 other starters to worry about and they don't even have to be tha good since MJ could theoretically have the ball every other possession and shut down his man on defense -- in other words, you get great value for that 25 Million you shelled out.

In baseball, not only are there 8 other hitters, 5 starting pitchers and BP guys that have to be paid, but Magglio HIMSELF simply doesn't possess the same "value" simply because every hitter has to take his turn -- even if he goes on a huge streak, he could always be pitched around.

Also, in baseball defense is not as important as in other sports: Magglio can't catch gappers and leap 50 feet in the air to take away a homer......whereas MJ could shut down Kobe, Iverson, etc and singlehandedly affect the way opposing teams runs their offense.

Jose it at the end of his career. While his defense has improved greatly, imo, he will not be more than a band-aid to the real problems:

1. We have no long term SS solution and none in minors.
2. We have nobody who can lead off or a top of the order guy who can get on base (.400 OBP) plus get us some steals. (Please, for the love of God, don't mention Wee Willie) We have tons of power, but at times, it seems that everyone is swinging for the fences and no one is on...
3. I suggested Vidro at 2B, and a top of the order of Renteria/Vidro would be nice. Edgar can get on at a great clip, can steal 35 bases and add tremendous D.

Spending 16-18m on Renteria / Vidro v. 15m on Maggs is a no-brainer to me as you will be getting 2 all-star caliber players for essentially the price of one. I agree to keeping Jose for a Lofton-type contract. Now you have a SOLID 4th infielder who can play 2nd, 3rd or short.

That being said, getting rid of PK, Koch and restructering Jose's contract to Lofton value, while keeping Maggs at 12-13m per at the same time of getting Renteria and Vidro via the FA market would be ideal. Oh to dream........

Veeky
03-29-2004, 02:29 PM
Jose it at the end of his career. While his defense has improved greatly, imo, he will not be more than a band-aid to the real problems:

1. I disagree to an extent. As long as starts taking care of his body (not playing in the off-season will help) and avoids freak injuries that could befall Renteria or anyone else just as easily, I could see Jose playing until 36-37 at a fairly productive level. He has never been a super-quick, super-agile athlete, so the effects of aging should be less pronounced than they would be in Ozzie Smith or Ray Ordonez, etc. Whatever he loses offensively, hopefully will be negated by more reliable defense. He doesn't have speed, but is a good baserunner and can bunt a bit too. That may not get it done at 5 Mill, but at 1-2M, it's a good value. Jose is also good having in the clubhouse.

2. I like Renteria if only for the Game 7 hit. Even if his newly found power/bulking up around 2003 was clean (he is hitting 270 in 40 atbats this spring, with no homers, no steals and 295 slugging), there is no guarantee his power sticks as 2003 was basically the first for him. You meantioned 35 steals --- he hadn't had one season over 35 since 1999. I see him as a more of a 20 steal/6 cs player as he approaches 30yo and becomes more slugging-conscious......It goes without saying that he is a better player than Manos, but is he 5-10 times better than him? No way.

3. How do we use Maggs/Konerko/Koch/Lee/Valentin money. What's the #1 goal? To win the World Series . You can win a ****ty division as ALC by out-slugging people as Indians have proven. You can't win the Seriest with Nagy, Burba and Wright as your starting 3. Sox are lucky that they have a 2-3 combo of Loaiza and Burhle that the Tribe didn't have, but we are missing a Kevin Brown, a Curt Shilling, a Glavine. So we need a bonafied ace. But that leaves another 22-24 Mill for other needs. With Marte as a set-up man, with Wunsht, Politte, etc as specialists, we still need a closer. Gagne just got disrespected by the Dodgers BIG-TIME. Give him 10 Mill per, he is the only closer other than Rivera in his prime who is worth it. The remaining 10-14 M will be used for a stud clean-up hitter/1B in the Thome mold. Roberts at 2B won't making serious money until 2007. Ditto Crede. Olivo. Garland. We have Anderson-Reed-Borchard-Rowand-Sweeney-Perez-Harris fighting for 3 OF spots. Thomas a DH. Cotts/Rauch/Wright competing for 5th starter and long-relief spots.......

Who knows, if the team is winning and fans are coming out, the payroll will expend, say, another 10+ Mill and we wouldn't need to trade Lee or could afford an upgrade at another position.

Mickster
03-29-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Gagne just got disrespected by the Dodgers BIG-TIME. Give him 10 Mill per, he is the only closer other than Rivera in his prime who is worth it.

Disagree. No closer is worth 10m per. Period.

Veeky
03-29-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Disagree. No closer is worth 10m per. Period.

I believe Gagne can save 50+ games with hardly a blown save.

An average closer with 50 saves would blow 8-10.

That's a 6-8+ game swing.

But more than that, a closer with ice in his veins like Gagne will be indispensible in the playoffs. Remember Koch? Remember Foulke? Hell, even Uribina and Nen....

Since you're presumably building a team that will have the chance to win the Series (86 years, people), if you're gonna get an expensive closer, it should be Gagne. Try to save a Mill or two like you did on Foulke-Koch swap, and you might get burined big-time.

I mean, you could offer Gagne 6-7 Mill, but I doubt he'll take it.

Mickster
03-29-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
I believe Gagne can save 50+ games with hardly a blown save.

An average closer with 50 saves would blow 8-10.

That's a 6-8+ game swing.

But more than that, a closer with ice in his veins like Gagne will be indispensible in the playoffs. Remember Koch? Remember Foulke? Hell, even Uribina and Nen....

Past performance does not necessarily equal future.. i.e. Koch... 2 years ago he was a stud......now he's a pud.... :D:

Veeky
03-29-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Past performance does not necessarily equal future.. i.e. Koch... 2 years ago he was a stud......now he's a pud.... :D:

Ok Mick, you convinced me: scrap the plans of building a true World Series winner and lets instead give Magglio 15 Mill because of 1 truly excellent season (02) and throw 10 more Mill Renteria's way because of one excellent season (03).

Mickster
03-29-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Ok Mick, you convinced me: scrap the plans of building a true World Series winner and lets instead give Magglio 15 Mill because of 1 truly excellent season (02) and throw 10 more Mill Renteria's way because of one excellent season (03).

Not at all what I am saying. I am against giving Maggs 15m per year and in favor of getting 2 players for that salary. Just like I am against giving 10m for a closer when you can do much more with the money. By the way, if you look at Renteria's career stats, he's a .289 hitter that averages 31 steals/season with an increasing OPB as of late.

Assume for my argument that the sox actually have somewhat of a successful season, get a good draw this year and end up increasing payroll next year to 70m. I would hate to give 1/7 of that salary to a reliever who will make maybe 50 appearances per year. I am not saying that a "true contender" does not need a lights out-closer, just that 1/7 of our salary is certainly not worth it.

In no way am I saying to scrap the plans on building a contender. Just be realistic with the owners and payroll that we have been dealt. If you have a $100m payroll, go out and sign Gagne. When you have $64m, you'd be nuts to tie up that kind of money on him...

Veeky
03-29-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Not at all what I am saying. I am against giving Maggs 15m per year and in favor of getting 2 players for that salary. Just like I am against giving 10m for a closer when you can do much more with the money. By the way, if you look at Renteria's career stats, he's a .289 hitter that averages 31 steals/season with an increasing OPB as of late.

Assume for my argument that the sox actually have somewhat of a successful season, get a good draw this year and end up increasing payroll next year to 70m. I would hate to give 1/7 of that salary to a reliever who will make maybe 50 appearances per year. I am not saying that a "true contender" does not need a lights out-closer, just that 1/7 of our salary is certainly not worth it.

In no way am I saying to scrap the plans on building a contender. Just be realistic with the owners and payroll that we have been dealt. If you have a $100m payroll, go out and sign Gagne. When you have $64m, you'd be nuts to tie up that kind of money on him...


No, no, no -- I meant Gagne would have to be a final piece of the puzzle, which is predicated on the following occuring:

1. Sox win ALC, attendance momentum, with JR increasing the next year's budget to over the league average, which is about 70 M.

2. Sox are able to get Konerko's 9 Mill off the books.

3. Sox are able to restructure Valentin's contract to 2year/3.5 Mill type a thing.

4. Carlos's 8 Mill is traded. Rowand/Reed feels in.

5. Loaiza settles for a reasonable amount.

6. Sox get a legitimate ace (use your imagination) to a 1 year deal.

7. Magglio leaves as FA. Borchard/Rowand/Reed fills in.

8. Thomas is re-signed.

9. 1000 OPS clean-up hitting 1B/DH is signed for under 14 Mill.


The payroll raise goes to cover Frank's and Esteban raises.

You save 14 on Maggs. 6.3 on Koch. 8.5 on Konerko. 7 on Lee.
3 on Valentin. That's about 38 Mill to spend on spend on # 6 and #9 and Gagne. Very doable -- maybe even with a coupla mill left over to go to Polittle and/or Wunsht.

Mickster
03-29-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
No, no, no -- I meant Gagne would have to be a final piece of the puzzle, which is predicated on the following occuring:

1. Sox win ALC, attendance momentum, with JR increasing the next year's budget to over the league average, which is about 70 M.

2. Sox are able to get Konerko's 9 Mill off the books.

3. Sox are able to restructure Valentin's contract to 2year/3.5 Mill type a thing.

4. Carlos's 8 Mill is traded. Rowand/Reed feels in.

5. Loaiza settles for a reasonable amount.

6. Sox get a legitimate ace (use your imagination) to a 1 year deal.

7. Magglio leaves as FA. Borchard/Rowand/Reed fills in.

8. Thomas is re-signed.

9. 1000 OPS clean-up hitting 1B/DH is signed for under 14 Mill.


The payroll raise goes to cover Frank's and Esteban raises.

You save 14 on Maggs. 6.3 on Koch. 8.5 on Konerko. 7 on Lee.
3 on Valentin. That's about 38 Mill to spend on spend on # 6 and #9 and Gagne. Very doable -- maybe even with a coupla mill left over to go to Polittle and/or Wunsht.

Veeky:

Way too many iffs here.

1. Don't rely on Reed, Borchard or Sweeny. Joe B. has been the second coming for quite some time with nothing to show for it. We need proven outfielders and, imho, until one of the above does something above AAA this year I'm unconvinced. Borchard will not even start this year on the 25 man roster! You've got him and Reed in for Maggs and Lee for Christ's sake. Expecting ONE of them to fill in for Maggs is one thing, expecting 2 for Maggs and Lee is another.

Carlos is just coming to his own. No way we get rid of him, even at his salary.

2. The best that the sox can hope for is Konerko getting off to a hot start and then trading him away for a bag of batting practice balls.

Overpriced/overpaid players that are gone for sure:

Koch gone, $6.3 Mil
Valentin off the books, $5.5m

Assuming maggs leaves via FA, their salaries amount to $26m. Increase payroll to $70m and you get $32m to spend. You correctly point out that E-LO will need some cash, need another starter (min. 5-10m), 3-4m in relief, add 2m assuming FT comes back... Money starts going quick...

Gagne will be the final piece of a pretty crappy puzzle. :(:

Man Soo Lee
03-29-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
I meant Gagne would have to be a final piece of the puzzle

Gagne is at least two years from free agency, so you might want to leave him off your 2005 White Sox.

Veeky
03-29-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Veeky:

Way too many iffs here.

1. Don't rely on Reed, Borchard or Sweeny. Joe B. has been the second coming for quite some time with nothing to show for it. We need proven outfielders and, imho, until one of the above does something above AAA this year I'm unconvinced. Borchard will not even start this year on the 25 man roster! You've got him and Reed in for Maggs and Lee for Christ's sake. Expecting ONE of them to fill in for Maggs is one thing, expecting 2 for Maggs and Lee is another.

Carlos is just coming to his own. No way we get rid of him, even at his salary.

2. The best that the sox can hope for is Konerko getting off to a hot start and then trading him away for a bag of batting practice balls.

Overpriced/overpaid players that are gone for sure:

Koch gone, $6.3 Mil
Valentin off the books, $5.5m

Assuming maggs leaves via FA, their salaries amount to $26m. Increase payroll to $70m and you get $32m to spend. You correctly point out that E-LO will need some cash, need another starter (min. 5-10m), 3-4m in relief, add 2m assuming FT comes back... Money starts going quick...

Gagne will be the final piece of a pretty crappy puzzle. :(:

Of course there are many IF's. Aren't there always when it comes to the Sox? The IF's worked out fine in 2000. Sox won. They didn't in 2002 and 2003. Sox lost.

1. Lee is a 830 OPS player with below average defense in LF. With his size, all those reckless dives and power-slides into bases will begin to take toll. But unless he takes it to another level in 2004, like Durham before him, Carlos's 8 Mill in 2005 will be too much for the Sox. I believe, by that time, two of Reed/Anderson/Sweeney/Perez/Borchard/Rowand will be able to fill in Maggs' and Carlos's spot hopefully without losing too much offense, but with a clear upgrade defensively at a mere fraction of the cost 22-23 Mill cost.

2. Koch is a given. Valentin's 5 Mill needs to be restructured. Konerko has to leave, he was never worth 8 Mill. He needs to have a decent year to raise his value and then be packaged with a good prospect.

It will take some luck and a good GM, but it's doable. If you can sign Gagne for 6-7 Mill, more power to you. I know I'd rather have him than Guardado or Percival who make similar money.

Example (2005):

2b Roberts
LF Reed/Gload/Perez
DH Thomas
1B Delgado (Toronto picking up a chunk of his salary)
3B Crede
SS Valentin (restructured, with Uribe maybe filling in against LHP)
CF Rowand/Perez/Anderson
RF Borchard/Rowand/Sweeney/Perez
C Olivo


Hudson
Loaiza
Buehle
Garland
Cotts/Wright/Rauch/Honel/Pacheco

Gagne
Marte
Politte
Wunsht
Wright/Rauch/Adkins
Show

Obviously it's tentative as hell, but you get the idea. The team IMO is not only good enough to win ALC, but much more importantly compete once it's in the post-season. I believe there will be a few mill left for a bat just in case offense is a problem at the ASB -- Carl Everetts and Aramis Ramirezes are always available at the dealine, with team willing to pick up part of their salaries.

70 Mill is not that far off if we win ALC this year and get attendance over 2,100,000 in a renovated park.

Whitesox029
03-29-2004, 09:46 PM
1. Shouldn't we as sox fans know by now that Reinsdorf is not going to get Gagne no matter how much we want him to, and even if he did, Gagne would fold exactly like Koch did? Let's keep things realistic here.
2. I would trade almost anyone on the team before Konerko. He's a class act and he's going to drive in 100 and hit .300 w/30 HR this year. If that's not worth whatever he's asking then what is?

Veeky
03-30-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
1. Shouldn't we as sox fans know by now that Reinsdorf is not going to get Gagne no matter how much we want him to, and even if he did, Gagne would fold exactly like Koch did? Let's keep things realistic here.
2. I would trade almost anyone on the team before Konerko. He's a class act and he's going to drive in 100 and hit .300 w/30 HR this year. If that's not worth whatever he's asking then what is?

1. You may be right. Gagne isn't the only closer in town.

2. You, Sir, have got to be to jokin'.

Mickster
03-30-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Veeky
2. You, Sir, have got to be to jokin'.

Agreed. Whitesox029 (Mrs. Konerko?), what are you thinking?

Veeky
03-30-2004, 12:29 PM
Lost in the fantasy line-up projections shuffle is the fact that it's truly ALL in Magglio's hands at this point.

If he can produce at the rate Sosa did in his break-out 1998 season (and a collective ALC pitching suckdom may help here), then it makes the decision that much easier:

1. That boost might just take the Sox over the top and force Minny/KC to start dumping at the break. A win situation!

2. If Sox are 7+ games behind at the break and it's clear the season is shaping up a disaster, then New Magglio's TRADE VALUE will net top-rate/Edwin Jackson-type talent. I mean, it's one thing to trade for prospects, which many teams do and quite another for A+ prospects that are only given up when a contending team truly wants an impact player to put them over the top.....While I'd much rather prefer Scenario #1, this one is not as terrible as it may sound, either.

So....GO MAGGLI-O!

Paulwny
03-30-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Veeky

2. If Sox are 7+ games behind at the break and it's clear the season is shaping up a disaster, then New Magglio's TRADE VALUE will net top-rate/Edwin Jackson-type talent. I mean, it's one thing to trade for prospects, which many teams do and quite another for A+ prospects that are only given up when a contending team truly wants an impact player to put them over the top .


This is a toss-up. Since Maggs is not signed beyond this year many teams won't give up much of their farm for a 1/2 yr rent-a-player.

Veeky
03-30-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
This is a toss-up. Since Maggs is not signed beyond this year many teams won't give up much of their farm for a 1/2 yr rent-a-player.

If they want to win bad enough -- say, something happens to Sheffield, Nixon or Roidboy Giambi.....

But hey, I'd rather Sox win and don't have to unload anyone at the break.