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soxwon
03-24-2004, 09:24 PM
i got into a debate today with a cubs fan, as usual he claims the sox SUCK.
He insists the Cubs lineup is awesome and ours blows.

whats your opinions- man vs man
i say:

1b Derek Lee over Konerko slightly
2b grudzalanek over Harri/uribe
3b crede over ramirez
ss valentin over agone
rf maggs over sosa easy
cf patterson(if healthy) over rowand
lf carlos lee over alou
c olivo over barett
dh thomas over whoever

sp prior over buehrle not by much
sp loiza over wood
sp maddux slightly over garland
sp zambrano over schoenweis

closer marte/koch over ?

thats 8 to 6 sox

MRKARNO
03-24-2004, 09:34 PM
It's Loaiza, not Loiza, but it doesnt matter because I dont see him being better than Wood barring injury to Wood.

It's not fair to compare thomas with anyone on their team. You could say Thomas is the 1B and put Thomas over Lee, but "Thomas over nobody" doesnt really mean anything

owensmouth
03-24-2004, 09:42 PM
By the 4th of July, your point will be proven, clearly, for all the world to see.

soxwon
03-24-2004, 09:43 PM
sorry for the mis spelling, but Mr wood has never won more than 15- Loiaza won 21, im basing it on that, and ill say Elo will win more than Maddux this season.

but will frank play more 1b than pauly i say NO.

i expect pauly to have a great year, and frank to have an mvp year.

Veeky
03-24-2004, 09:44 PM
rf maggs over sosa easy

In what twilight zone?

sp prior over buehrle not by much

Lose the "not by much" part.

sp loiza over wood

I'll say it's a wash.

sp zambrano over schoenweis

No!

closer marte/koch over ?

Marte and Hawkins are a wash. Borowski and Farnsworth over Koch and Shingo easy. Sorry.

fquaye149
03-24-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
In what twilight zone?



Lose the "not by much" part.



I'll say it's a wash.



No!



Marte and Hawkins are a wash. Borowski and Farnsworth over Koch and Shingo easy. Sorry.


maggs is easily a better defensive right fielder than sosa, he hits better for average and is more consistent than sosa, although sosa's spikes are higher than magglio's. however i think comparing sosa's strikeout numbers to magglio's puts magglio on top.

i'm not sure how you can say prior is better than buehrle by MUCH....prior is limping around arizona, while buehrle is coming off a strong second half. prior hasn't played 2 whole years yet, but apparently he's infallible? he's a good pitcher and probably better than buehrle, but NO. not by much



your other points are pretty well taken

Mohoney
03-24-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
It's Loaiza, not Loiza, but it doesnt matter because I dont see him being better than Wood barring injury to Wood.

It's not fair to compare thomas with anyone on their team. You could say Thomas is the 1B and put Thomas over Lee, but "Thomas over nobody" doesnt really mean anything

Kerry Wood is, by far, THE MOST OVERRATED PITCHER IN BASEBALL HISTORY!

When you win more than 14 games, call me.

Plus, he's good for at LEAST 10+ losses EVERY YEAR!

If 3 of those losses are to the Cardinals (1-3 against the Cardinals overall) and 2 of them are to the Astros (2-2 against the Astros overall) against "inferior" starters like Carpenter, Oswalt, Marquis, Redding, and the like, I don't see the Cubs winning the NL Central.

In fact, they have just as good a chance at finishing 3rd as they do at finishing 1st.

Back to your comment, 100 bucks says Loaiza wins more games than Wood this year.

soxwon
03-24-2004, 10:04 PM
thanks fquay.

right now magglio is a much better player than old man sosa.
frank thomas is still more dangerous than sosa.
so is carlos lee.

prior is an unbelievable talent yes- but he gets injured too much.
buehrle has proven a winner.

FormerKnight
03-24-2004, 11:27 PM
loaiza career era - 4.58
wood career era - 3.62

yeah, i'll take loaiza over wood anyday.


i'll take that bet mohoney

Mohoney
03-25-2004, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by FormerKnight
loaiza career era - 4.58
wood career era - 3.62

yeah, i'll take loaiza over wood anyday.


i'll take that bet mohoney

You're on! 1st taker!

Remember, the bet is WINS!

Veeky
03-25-2004, 04:19 AM
frank thomas is still more dangerous than sosa.
so is carlos lee

What about Willie? Willie > Sosa.

When you win more than 14 games, call me.

And when you realize that Win-Loss record is as much a function of RUN-SUPPORT, DEFENSE, BULLPEN and MANAGER as it is of a starting pitcher's effort, you can call me too. Scratch that, don't.


however i think comparing sosa's strikeout numbers to magglio's puts magglio on top.

Who cares about strikeouts! If you can give me 1100 OPS/160 RBI production, you may strike out 200 times for all I care. And Magglio's advantage in defense couldn't begin to cover for Sosa's superior power-hitting from 1998-2003. If you want to argue that it was STEROID-enhanced, you can -- but that still doesn' change the facts. Sosa is and has been the better player than Magglio. Period. At very worst, it's a wash -- and only because Sammy is getting up there in years.

prior is an unbelievable talent yes- but he gets injured too much

Those injuries will likely have no lasting effect. With his mechanics, sky is the limit. Mark Buerhle, on the other hand, strikes me as a zesty over-achiever who has NEVER had a health problem in his life, but when he DOES get injured, it's career-ending -- see: Sirotka, Lieber, etc. So let's not gloat about Jesus' injuries just yet. Leave that whole jinxing **** to Cub fans.

jordan23ventura
03-25-2004, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Veeky

Who cares about strikeouts! If you can give me 1100 OPS/160 RBI production, you may strike out 200 times for all I care. And Magglio's advantage in defense couldn't begin to cover for Sosa's superior power-hitting from 1998-2003. If you want to argue that it was STEROID-enhanced, you can -- but that still doesn' change the facts. Sosa is and has been the better player than Magglio. Period. At very worst, it's a wash -- and only because Sammy is getting up there in years.



I don't think anyone is talking about Sosa five years ago. The comparison is NOW. There is no way, I repeat no way, Sosa can compare to the all-around type player Magglio is. Maggs is in his prime, Sosa is on the decline. Maggs is production value, Sosa name value. Maggs is consistant, Sosa steps on second base on his way back to the dugout.

As far as the steriods, what about the cork?

jordan23ventura
03-25-2004, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura


As far as the steriods, what about the cork?


add note:

I wonder how many HR's Valentin would hit if he started shooting himself up and corking his bat?

voodoochile
03-25-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Veeky
What about Willie? Willie > Sosa.



And when you realize that Win-Loss record is as much a function of RUN-SUPPORT, DEFENSE, BULLPEN and MANAGER as it is of a starting pitcher's effort, you can call me too. Scratch that, don't.




Who cares about strikeouts! If you can give me 1100 OPS/160 RBI production, you may strike out 200 times for all I care. And Magglio's advantage in defense couldn't begin to cover for Sosa's superior power-hitting from 1998-2003. If you want to argue that it was STEROID-enhanced, you can -- but that still doesn' change the facts. Sosa is and has been the better player than Magglio. Period. At very worst, it's a wash -- and only because Sammy is getting up there in years.



Those injuries will likely have no lasting effect. With his mechanics, sky is the limit. Mark Buerhle, on the other hand, strikes me as a zesty over-achiever who has NEVER had a health problem in his life, but when he DOES get injured, it's career-ending -- see: Sirotka, Lieber, etc. So let's not gloat about Jesus' injuries just yet. Leave that whole jinxing **** to Cub fans.

:crossdresser

Hangar18
03-25-2004, 09:11 AM
I see the flubby lineup compared to ours, and was Nice to Notice the SOX have a Majority of their Players HOMEGROWN, while the cubs continue their yearly roster emptying. The cubs have an all-star team now of other teams players, and NOT their own. the Following are the Teams that Donated players to the cubs vs
where are guys came from
1b Lee/Marlin, VS Thomas our guy
2b Grudz/Expo VS Harris, our guy
ss Gonzalez/BlueJay VS Valentin, once a Brewer
3b Ramirez/Pirate VS Crede , our guy
lf Alou/Astro-Marlin VS Lee, our guy
cf Patterson VS Rowand, our guy
rf sosa/ranger-sox VS Ordonez, our guy
c barrett/expo VS Olivo, our guy (minor lg trade)

So you see, the cubs have to continuously raid other teams
to field a squad..........we luckily dont have to do that. Another reason Im glad to be a WHITE SOX FAN

Northside fan
03-25-2004, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I see the flubby lineup compared to ours, and was Nice to Notice the SOX have a Majority of their Players HOMEGROWN, while the cubs continue their yearly roster emptying. The cubs have an all-star team now of other teams players, and NOT their own. the Following are the Teams that Donated players to the cubs vs
where are guys came from
1b Lee/Marlin, VS Thomas our guy
2b Grudz/Expo VS Harris, our guy
ss Gonzalez/BlueJay VS Valentin, once a Brewer
3b Ramirez/Pirate VS Crede , our guy
lf Alou/Astro-Marlin VS Lee, our guy
cf Patterson VS Rowand, our guy
rf sosa/ranger-sox VS Ordonez, our guy
c barrett/expo VS Olivo, our guy (minor lg trade)

So you see, the cubs have to continuously raid other teams
to field a squad..........we luckily dont have to do that. Another reason Im glad to be a WHITE SOX FAN

Yup!!!Even 4 out of the Cubs 5 starting pitchers are not home grown. Not that starting pitching is a teams best asset or anything.

soxfan26
03-25-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by jordan23ventura
add note:

I wonder how many HR's Valentin would hit if he started shooting himself up and corking his bat?

97, but he would stilll hit .235

MRKARNO
03-25-2004, 11:27 AM
Wood has been plagued his entire career by weak run suppport. He has had 4 great seasons in 5 years in the majors. He almost always puts his team in a position to win, but the offense in the past has failed him. He has one of the highest strikeout rates in the majors year in and year out.

Loaiza has had 1 extraordinarily good season in 9 years.

I'll take Loaiza's 03 over any Wood year, but until Loaiza proves he's not a one-hit wonder, you have to give the nod to Wood. Who has the better stuff? They are actually about even, but Wood has been able to put it together a lot better than Loaiza.

I hope for the White Sox' sake that Loaiza continues what he did last year, but it's ludicrous to say that he is better than Wood at this stage in both of their careers.

TaylorStSox
03-25-2004, 12:39 PM
Regarding Wood and ERA vs. W/L....

ERA is overated because good pitchers do what they have to do to win games. Good pitchers might have a higher ERA because they throw strikes while in the lead. W/L is all that matters. Winning is all that matters.

uribe151
03-25-2004, 12:51 PM
better double-check yer medications, son

jabrch
03-25-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by soxwon

1b Derek Lee over Konerko slightly
2b grudzalanek over Harri/uribe
3b crede over ramirez
ss valentin over agone
rf maggs over sosa easy
cf patterson(if healthy) over rowand
lf carlos lee over alou
c olivo over barett
dh thomas over whoever

sp prior over buehrle not by much
sp loiza over wood
sp maddux slightly over garland
sp zambrano over schoenweis

closer marte/koch over ?

thats 8 to 6 sox

Lee - Far superior to Konerko - come on
Grudz/Walker over Harris/Uribe easily
SS - both suck
3B - wash
RF - Wash
LF - Carlos
C - both suck
DH - not fair

Prior by far over Buehlre
Wood over Loaiza
Maddux over Garland
Clement over Schoenweis
Zambrano over Wright

I say 7-1 Cubs - sucks to say that...but that's how I see it.

Hangar18
03-25-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Yup!!!Even 4 out of the Cubs 5 starting pitchers are not home grown. Not that starting pitching is a teams best asset or anything.

that being said, I'll still take the White SOX over the
Cubby/National League All-Stars everytime
Wouldnt it be cool if during this years Cross-Town Classic,
the guys representing the Cubs wear the uniforms of the teams
they came from? Would definitely be like an All-Star Game
for them .........

jabrch
03-25-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I see the flubby lineup compared to ours, and was Nice to Notice the SOX have a Majority of their Players HOMEGROWN, while the cubs continue their yearly roster emptying. The cubs have an all-star team now of other teams players, and NOT their own. the Following are the Teams that Donated players to the cubs vs
where are guys came from
1b Lee/Marlin, VS Thomas our guy
2b Grudz/Expo VS Harris, our guy
ss Gonzalez/BlueJay VS Valentin, once a Brewer
3b Ramirez/Pirate VS Crede , our guy
lf Alou/Astro-Marlin VS Lee, our guy
cf Patterson VS Rowand, our guy
rf sosa/ranger-sox VS Ordonez, our guy
c barrett/expo VS Olivo, our guy (minor lg trade)

So you see, the cubs have to continuously raid other teams
to field a squad..........we luckily dont have to do that. Another reason Im glad to be a WHITE SOX FAN

Hangar, I'd much rather have ownership that allowed us to raid other teams, and have their team over ours - any day.

They have us right now. They do. They have better hitting and better pitching.

If the players are homegrown or not is fairly irrlevant to me.

Hangar18
03-25-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Hangar, I'd much rather have ownership that allowed us to raid other teams, and have their team over ours - any day.

They have us right now. They do. They have better hitting and better pitching.

If the players are homegrown or not is fairly irrlevant to me.

The White SOX simply needed to fill in a few "pieces" here and there, by using the Free Agent Market to make their team Better.
The Cubs had to Completely OverHaul their team year after year, and somehow were able to gut teams that couldnt "afford" their position/role guys

Northside fan
03-25-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The White SOX simply needed to fill in a few "pieces" here and there, by using the Free Agent Market to make their team Better.
The Cubs had to Completely OverHaul their team year after year, and somehow were able to gut teams that couldnt "afford" their position/role guys


By the way, the Sox number 3 starter is a "home grown Cub"..

uribe151
03-25-2004, 01:08 PM
1b lee way over konerko; way over big frank (defense)
2b grudz/walker way over whatever we come up with
ss uribe over gonzales; gonzales over valentine (aka zorro...defense)
3b crede slightly over aramis
lf lee over alou, but both are great
cf patterson way over...
rf even
c olivo WAY OVER
dh big frank way way over


starters in order of quality:

prior
maddox
wood/ buerhle
loaiza

zambrano is probably the best of the rest

marte is only true top quality relief pitcher on either squad;
besides, i'm tired of typing

Hangar18
03-25-2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
By the way, the Sox number 3 starter is a "home grown Cub"..

The Messiah - Twins
Ox Wood - Home Grown
Maddux - Home Grown/Braves
Clement- Marlins
Fatbrano- HomeGrown

3 of these pitchers are here because of outrageous circumstances
where would they be had Circumstances been different?
Where would this team be had there simply been a Commissioner !?

Northside fan
03-25-2004, 01:19 PM
Hangar, I have a question for you. Were you singing the "not a home grown White Sox player" when you acquired Colon before last season started, and Alomar, Everett, Sullivan after the break? I'll bet not..

Northside fan
03-25-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
[B]The Messiah - Twins


Nice try. Thanks for playing. I don't care if the Twins could not draft him, that is not the Cubs problem. The Cubs signed, sealed and delivered him. Case closed!

Kilroy
03-25-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by uribe151
rf even

My ass.

Remember this stupid comment in a couple of weeks when we see the first of many of Scammy's candy-ass lollipop throws from rf that is over the cutoff man's head and way off the mark...

jabrch
03-25-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The White SOX simply needed to fill in a few "pieces" here and there, by using the Free Agent Market to make their team Better.
The Cubs had to Completely OverHaul their team year after year, and somehow were able to gut teams that couldnt "afford" their position/role guys

But thats the nature of the game man. Wouldn't you gladly trade our roster for theirs right now?

maurice
03-25-2004, 01:42 PM
Some folks are seriously overrating Wood, Sosa, and Maddux. Don't believe everything you hear from the Chicago media. As mentioned, Wood is an injury waiting to happen, especially with Dusty handling him. Sosa and Maddux are on the steep part of the downside of their careers.

Sosa's OPS the past three seasons: 1.174 --> .993 --> .911

He's at least 35 years old. Steroid testing and a fear of being busted for cork again won't help turn those numbers around.

Maddux had a 3.96 ERA last season in the NL. That's terrible for a guy who allegedly is still a great pitcher at age 38.

uribe151
03-25-2004, 01:49 PM
both are solid in the field; neither is a gold glove threat..
maybe magglio is a better hitter and rates an over-all slight edge

go go white sox!!!!

Iwritecode
03-25-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by uribe151
both are solid in the field; neither is a gold glove threat..
maybe magglio is a better hitter and rates an over-all slight edge

go go white sox!!!!

I know a Cubs fan that thinks that Magglio is better...

maurice
03-25-2004, 02:08 PM
I don't think it's a matter of opinion. We're talking about 2004. Maggs was better than Sosa last year, and he's extremely likely to be better than Sosa from here on out . . . in the field, at bat, on the basepaths, and in the clubhouse.

JC456
03-25-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
Kerry Wood is, by far, THE MOST OVERRATED PITCHER IN BASEBALL HISTORY!

When you win more than 14 games, call me.

Plus, he's good for at LEAST 10+ losses EVERY YEAR!

If 3 of those losses are to the Cardinals (1-3 against the Cardinals overall) and 2 of them are to the Astros (2-2 against the Astros overall) against "inferior" starters like Carpenter, Oswalt, Marquis, Redding, and the like, I don't see the Cubs winning the NL Central.

In fact, they have just as good a chance at finishing 3rd as they do at finishing 1st.

Back to your comment, 100 bucks says Loaiza wins more games than Wood this year.

Don't you know in Flubby land everyone on the team is better than everyone everywhere!!!! :D:

uribe151
03-25-2004, 02:13 PM
everything is too complicated re contracts and salaries, of course

but all of our good players are on the upswing of their careers (except big frank)

most of theirs are on the downswing (maddox, sosa, alou, grudz, hawkins, etc.)

JC456
03-25-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Don't you know in Flubby land everyone on the team is better than everyone everywhere!!!! :D:

That's why their fans are always over on a Sox MB, because they don't hold discussions with each other because everyone is so great.

That is also why they haven't won a championship for so long. They're just too good. Ask them!!

Then ask them why the Flubs didn't get to the Series last year and they'll blame Bartman. I love it when the facts speak.

Fact,

They will regret not resigning Kenny Lofton.

Tekijawa
03-25-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by soxwon
sp prior over buehrle not by much


Mark is my favorite player on the team right now, but I would trade him in a HEARTBEAT for Prior, I'd probably throw in a couple other players too!

RichFitztightly
03-25-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Don't you know in Flubby land everyone on the team is better than everyone everywhere!!!! :D:

Especially Augie Ojeda... ***!?

Northside fan
03-25-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Hangar, I have a question for you. Were you singing the "not a home grown White Sox player" when you acquired Colon before last season started, and Alomar, Everett, Sullivan after the break? I'll bet not..

Can't answer that one, can ya Hangar? I didn't think so.

voodoochile
03-25-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Hangar, I have a question for you. Were you singing the "not a home grown White Sox player" when you acquired Colon before last season started, and Alomar, Everett, Sullivan after the break? I'll bet not..
Can't answer that one, can ya Hangar? I didn't think so.

Is there a point to this trolling?

You flubbie fans, you just can't help yourself, can you.

soxwon
03-25-2004, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RichFitztightly
[B]Especially Augie Ojeda... ***!?

augie ojeda a twin

soxwon
03-25-2004, 09:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by uribe151
[B]better double-check yer medications, son


ill bet garland has as many wins as maddux this year.

pearso66
03-25-2004, 09:13 PM
If I'm not mistaken, didnt Harris come over from Baltimore in a trade for Singleton? He did come from our minor leagues, but after he played for them. I could be wrong, but I dont think so.

uribe151
03-26-2004, 02:00 AM
i hope you are right!! i hope he wins many more!!

go go sox!

ps gambling=illegal

soxwon
03-26-2004, 07:03 PM
is mark prior in the hall of fame yet?
and kerry woods too?
you think maddux will wear a cubs hat into the HOF?

Hangar18
03-27-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Can't answer that one, can ya Hangar? I didn't think so.

I didnt see your question, BUT in defense of Myself...
THeyre not Here Anymore, so useless to argue that

Hangar18
03-27-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
If I'm not mistaken, didnt Harris come over from Baltimore in a trade for Singleton? He did come from our minor leagues, but after he played for them. I could be wrong, but I dont think so.

Hmmm. good question. I dont know how to handle that.
If a minor leaguer gets traded to you, and spends time in your minors, I think that would qualify as being your player. with exceptions of course. The Messiah is one of the BIGGEST exceptions of all time. Had they not received as Charity, aramis ramirez, and had there been a REAL commissioner, The Messiah would be a Twin, and the flubbies wouldve drafted the 3rd baseman theyve been looking for since the early 1970's ..........
Mark Texeira.

Veeky
03-27-2004, 07:57 PM
Litmus test for Baseball Intelligence:

--Better overall value player from 1998-2003 - Sosa or Maggs?
--Mark Prior injury-prone/damaged goods or not?
--More valuable player away from PP -- Lee or Konerko?
--Would rather have as a #3, Zambrano or Garland?
--Would start in 1st game of MLDS, Wood or Buerhle?


Mocking Cub fans is one life's more under-rated pleasures.
When it's done intelligently and creatively and is warranted, that is -- next day after Game 7 of NLDS is easily among the 50 Best Days of my life.

But as soon as I hear abour Danny Wright being better than Greg Maddux or about Ron Santo being a hilarious dorf or about "Wriggley ******s", I start heading the other direction. Ignorant Sox fans are even worse than ignorant Cub fans because not only are they remarkably stupid without even realizing it, but they are bitter and hateful.

voodoochile
03-27-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Litmus test for Baseball Intelligence:

--Better overall value player from 1998-2003 - Sosa or Maggs?
--Mark Prior injury-prone/damaged goods or not?
--More valuable player away from PP -- Lee or Konerko?
--Would rather have as a #3, Zambrano or Garland?
--Would start in 1st game of MLDS, Wood or Buerhle?


Mocking Cub fans is one life's more under-rated pleasures.
When it's done intelligently and creatively, and is warranted -- next day after Game 7 of NLDS is easily among the 50 Best Days of my life.

But as soon as I hear abour Danny Wright being better than Greg Maddux or about Ron Santo being a hilarious dorf or about "Wriggley ******s", I start heading the other direction. Ignorant Sox fans are even worse than ignorant Cub fans because not only are they remarkably stupid without even realizing it, but they are bitter and hateful.

I don't have a problem with discussing baseball. Sox V. Cubs is a time honored Chicago baseball tradition, but your obsession with pointing out how much better (IYO) flubbie players are and now your calling Sox fans bitter and hateful makes me wonder if you are really what you claim to be.

I banned one troll tonight. You going for number 2?

Jjav829
03-27-2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hmmm. good question. I dont know how to handle that.
If a minor leaguer gets traded to you, and spends time in your minors, I think that would qualify as being your player. with exceptions of course. The Messiah is one of the BIGGEST exceptions of all time. Had they not received as Charity, aramis ramirez, and had there been a REAL commissioner, The Messiah would be a Twin, and the flubbies wouldve drafted the 3rd baseman theyve been looking for since the early 1970's ..........
Mark Texeira.

Uhh, how is that homegrown talent? I can't agree with that. Homegrown players are players that your organization found (drafted/signed) and developed themselves. Any player you trade for, no matter what level they are at, is not homegrown.

To use an analogy(and I have no clue why I chose this :smile: ), if you go buy a pie from the store, can you say you baked that pie? No. Same with any minor leaguer. Someone else found them, you are just trading for what they have already discovered.

RedPinStripes
03-27-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
What about Willie? Willie > Sosa.



And when you realize that Win-Loss record is as much a function of RUN-SUPPORT, DEFENSE, BULLPEN and MANAGER as it is of a starting pitcher's effort, you can call me too. Scratch that, don't.




Who cares about strikeouts! If you can give me 1100 OPS/160 RBI production, you may strike out 200 times for all I care. And Magglio's advantage in defense couldn't begin to cover for Sosa's superior power-hitting from 1998-2003. If you want to argue that it was STEROID-enhanced, you can -- but that still doesn' change the facts. Sosa is and has been the better player than Magglio. Period. At very worst, it's a wash -- and only because Sammy is getting up there in years.



Those injuries will likely have no lasting effect. With his mechanics, sky is the limit. Mark Buerhle, on the other hand, strikes me as a zesty over-achiever who has NEVER had a health problem in his life, but when he DOES get injured, it's career-ending -- see: Sirotka, Lieber, etc. So let's not gloat about Jesus' injuries just yet. Leave that whole jinxing **** to Cub fans.

What team do you root for anyeway? Sosa over maggs? Maybe 4 years ago.

Palehose13
03-27-2004, 08:33 PM
I'm gonna try this here with a fantasy mag in fornt of me and give the players $ values.

1B D. Lee ($27)/Konerko ($14)
2B Grudz($6) Walker($4)/Harris(not listed)-Uribe($2)
SS AGon ($6) / Valentin ($10)
3B Ramirez ($22)/ Joe Crede ($15)
C Barrett ($3) /Olivo ($5)
LF Alou ($19) / C.Lee ($27)
CF Patterson ($21)/ Rowand (Not listed)
RF Sosa ($31)/Maggs ($32)

Prior ($33)/Buerhle ($17)
Wood($27)/Loaiza($26)
Maddux($19)/Garland($7)
Clement($14)/Schoenweiss(NL)
Zambrano($16)/???????

AS far as the position players, we take 4 out of 9, but I am sure that defense isn't taken into account. They blow us away on pitching except I would say Wood/Loaiza a wash.

On the fantasy draft the other night, Maggs was ranked higher than Sosa. I think most would agree (even real cub fans) that Maggs in 2004 is better than Sosa 2004.

OEO Magglio
03-27-2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by soxwon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by uribe151
[B]better double-check yer medications, son


ill bet garland has as many wins as maddux this year.
I'll one up you here a little bit, I'd be willing to bet garland has more wins this year then maddux, if I had a choice this year between who I'd rather have maddux or garland, I take Jon.

Veeky
03-27-2004, 08:46 PM
OFF-TOPIC:

I don't have a problem with discussing baseball.

It's funny, I don't remember discussing anything OTHER than baseball/base-ball-related subjects on this forum.

Sox V. Cubs is a time honored Chicago baseball tradition, but your obsession with pointing out how much better (IYO) flubbie players are

Obsession??? I have not started a SINGLE Cub-related thread. Not one. But I DO consider myself fair, critical and outspoken , so when I hear ridiculous comments I respond with clean conscience. Is it that much different than what KingZerxes, LipMan among other do?

And OF COURSE it's "IMO". You don't have to share it. You don't have to like it. It is what it is, and I reserve the right to be wrong about many things, Cubs' superior team including. There are few baseball-related things out there that would please me more than being dead wrong about the Cubs and witnessing the Great Implosion 2004. But whatever.

and now your calling Sox fans bitter and hateful

Now this is just plain all-out unfair and you know it. I believe you're twisting what I said WAY out of context. And yes, I stand by what I said. I believe the statment has been sufficiently qualified. The key implication that you clearly missed: SOME SOX FANS. Duh.

makes me wonder if you are really what you claim to be.

Why, because I refuse to pander to homers and idiots? I believe I owe it to myself and to the quality of this board to express what's on my mind.

I banned one troll tonight. You going for number 2?

You have no right to call me a troll. I am a loyal die-hard Sox fan, one who puts his WALLET where his mouth is. I cannot believe I am even dignifying this....

There is also no need to threaten me.

Veeky
03-27-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Uhh, how is that homegrown talent? I can't agree with that. Homegrown players are players that your organization found (drafted/signed) and developed themselves. Any player you trade for, no matter what level they are at, is not homegrown.

To use an analogy(and I have no clue why I chose this :smile: ), if you go buy a pie from the store, can you say you baked that pie? No. Same with any minor leaguer. Someone else found them, you are just trading for what they have already discovered.

Et tu Maury! Sox'n'Roll Lives.

:gulp:

Veeky
03-27-2004, 09:05 PM
I'm gonna try this here with a fantasy mag in fornt of me and give the players $ values.

1B D. Lee ($27)/Konerko ($14)
2B Grudz($6) Walker($4)/Harris(not listed)-Uribe($2)
SS AGon ($6) / Valentin ($10)
3B Ramirez ($22)/ Joe Crede ($15)
C Barrett ($3) /Olivo ($5)
LF Alou ($19) / C.Lee ($27)
CF Patterson ($21)/ Rowand (Not listed)
RF Sosa ($31)/Maggs ($32)

Prior ($33)/Buerhle ($17)
Wood($27)/Loaiza($26)
Maddux($19)/Garland($7)
Clement($14)/Schoenweiss(NL)
Zambrano($16)/???????

I am not big on Fantasy Dorkism....but the above is reasonable.

They kill us at 1B, 2B and win at CF, 3B. We beat them at SS, C and LF. RF is a wash -- just as I conceded upthread -- Sosa is getting old afterall. And I think they are underrating Alou or overrating Carlos. Yes, Carlos is better but unless they figure Alou is gonna go down with an injury again, I do not think the margin should be as big. Last year, with no line-up protection (Sosa was injured, then suspended; Ramirez didn't show up until late July), hitting in a pitching-neutral park, Alou put up comparable OPS to Carlos and while Carlos's defense is better than Alou's, he is still below average IMO. Until 2003, Carlos was a stupid baser-runner. In any case,

Their offense is at least as good as ours when you adjust for NL-AL differences. And yeah, they have a better BP and kills us on starting pitching, while we're better defensively. How is that different from what I said before?

We had great chances in 2002 and 2003 and we blew them. Now the Cubs are actually good, so it should give JR and KW a fantastic incentive to actually SPEND for once. The division is weak, we need a 2B/lead-off hitter and a legitimate ace in case we make play-offs. Both are accomplishable for UNDER 6-7 Mill if we throw in some prospects around July.

voodoochile
03-27-2004, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
OFF-TOPIC:



It's funny, I don't remember discussing anything OTHER than baseball/base-ball-related subjects on this forum.



Obsession??? I have not started a SINGLE Cub-related thread. Not one. But I DO consider myself fair, critical and outspoken , so when I hear ridiculous comments I respond with clean conscience. Is it that much different than what KingZerxes, LipMan among other do?

And OF COURSE it's "IMO". You don't have to share it. You don't have to like it. It is what it is, and I reserve the right to be wrong about many things, Cubs' superior team including. There are few baseball-related things out there that would please me more than being dead wrong about the Cubs and witnessing the Great Implosion 2004. But whatever.



Now this is just plain all-out unfair and you know it. I believe you're twisting what I said WAY out of context. And yes, I stand by what I said. I believe the statment has been sufficiently qualified. The key implication that you clearly missed: SOME SOX FANS. Duh.



Why, because I refuse to pander to homers and idiots? I believe I owe it to myself and to the quality of board to express what's on my mind.



You have no right to call me a troll. I am a loyal die-hard Sox fan, one who puts his WALLET where his mouth is. I cannot believe I am even dignifying this....

There is also no need to threaten me.

Fair enough. But, you have been on the edge of what is considered acceptable behavior. There is a right way and a wrong way to tell people they are wrong. You've been pushing that edge and ALL of that edginess is in defense of the flubbies superiority and all of it recently.

You are new here, so obviously, I don't know you. I don't know your style or anything else. You have been overtly aggressive in your defense of flubbie talent and have belittled Sox fans who express their belief that the Sox are better.

Maybe the best thing is to just tone it down a bit. Your response to Palehose13 is quite reasonable. Compare that with some of your earlier comments to see the difference.

uribe151
03-27-2004, 09:25 PM
i think garland might win twenty
I HOPE HE DOES!

maddux is a HALL OF FAMER who is going to get his 300th win in july
he is an other-wordly competitor who looks terrific in spring training
he is going to jump on the 2004 season with both feet
he seems like he is still in his prime and maybe even has a chip on his shoulder this year

garland needs to get it together to show he belongs in a major league rotation

this is a very big difference

so yeah, i think maddux rates a big edge over garland

ps gambling=illegal

pearso66
03-28-2004, 12:51 AM
If I am not mistaken, Maddux is 11 wins away from 300? I will go on record as saying I don't think he gets it this year. I have a feeling he is going to get rocked in Wrigley. He was at the beginning of the year last year, and Turner Field is a pitchers park, especially compared to Wrigley. I think Garland will definitally win more than 11. I believe I said somewhere earlier, I don't know if on this board or somewhere else, I don't think Maddux will win more than 8.