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Veeky
03-23-2004, 06:47 PM
This comment taken from the Game Thread (either from the *Official* or from the *Secret underground society* one, don't rememeber which)

He Slid into home didn't he?

Why haven't the reminded this guy that he's 250+ and used to be a tight end? If Pete Rose can run over a Catcher in the All Star Game I don't see why Frank can't run through a few catchers every now and then!!

NO. NO. NO.

We all remember how the last "Frank the All-Around player" Experiment ended, right?

He saw. He dove. He didn't conquer, but he DID tear the **** out of his tricept, something that NOT only instantly KILLED our chances in 2001, but also, in retrospect, wiped out the 2002 season as well since it took him more than 12 months to recover and he was the center piece of our offense.

No success in 2001 meant poor attendace and little revenue throughout the year, which in turn resulted in us trying to "save" on an expensive FA veteran in the off-season by giving away Wells for "bargain" Ritchie. Ritchie, no Wells + not 100% Frank = wasted season = you guessed it, the attendance/revenue shortage and less money to spend on 2003 payroll, which was a ridiculously low 51 Mill on OD, despite it being such a historic year, a year when we hosted the ASG....

Anyway, this time around, the money we DIDN't get in 2002 because the team didn't win and didn't attract crowds, Sox tried to "get" by swiping Foulke for then much cheaper Koch......We all know how that ended, I trust.....No playoffs again.

You might not think of it now, but it ALL began with Frank's injury. Eveything. We were coming off a triumphant 2000. Future looked bright.......

What did Santayana say about learning from the past again? Sorry, but I do NOT want Frank to pull that dangerous baserunner **** on the base-paths. I do NOT want Carlos and Ordonez to run through walls on meaningless plays. They are NOT replaceable -- in this tight, 3-team divisional race, the team that will stay the healthiest will, in all likelyhood, pull out the division title.......The reward of Frank running through the catcher is very SMALL, other than giving you people a hard-on. The risk is HUGE -- at his age, a disk injury = CAREER OVER -- season over for sure.

Yankees can afford the "no guts, no glory" mentality because they can pay their way through major injuries. WE CAN'T. I hope Ozzie is not stupid enough to endanger the future just to possibly get an extra run. Frank is a station-to-station baserunner and a DH. Live with it. Forrest for the trees, as it were.

guillen4life13
03-23-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
This comment taken from the Game Thread (either from the *Official* or from the *Secret underground society* one, don't rememeber which)



NO. NO. NO.

We all remember how the last "Frank the All-Around player" Experiment ended, right?

He saw. He dove. He didn't didn't conquer, but he DID tear the **** out of his tricept, something that NOT only instantly KILLED our chances in 2001, but also, in retrospect, wiped out the 2002 season as well since it took him more than 12 months to recover and he was the center piece of our offense.

No success in 2001 meant poor attendace and little revenue throughout the year, which in turn resulted in us trying to "save" on an expensive FA veteran in the off-season by giving away Wells for "bargain" Ritchie. Ritchie, no Wells + not 100% Frank = wasted season = you guessed, the attendance/revenue shortage and less money to spend on 2003 payroll, which was a ridiculously low 51 Mill on OD, despite it being such a historic year, a year when we hosted the ASG....

Anyway, this time around, the money we DIDN't get in 2002 because the team didn't win and didn't attract crowds, Sox tried to "get" by swiping Foulke for then much cheaper Koch......We all know how that ended, I trust.....No playoffs again.

You might not think of it now, but it ALL began with Frank's injury. Eveything. We were coming off a triumphant 2000. Future looked bright.......

What did Santayana say about learning from the past again? Sorry, but I do NOT want Frank to pull that dangerous baserunner **** on the base-paths. I do NOT want Carlos and Ordonez to run through walls on meaningless plays. They are NOT replaceable -- in this tight, 3-team divisional race, the team that will stay the healthiest will, in all likelyhood, pull out the division title.......The reward of Frank running through a catcher is very SMALL. The RISK is HUGE -- at his age, a disk injury = CAREER OVER -- season over for sure.

Yankees can afford the "no guts, no glory" mentality because they can pay their way through major injuries. WE CAN'T. I hope Ozzie is not stupid enough to endanger the future just to possibly get an extra run. Frank is a station-to-station baserunner and a DH. Live with it. Forrest for the trees, as it were.

Nicely said. No need to pull that stuff in Spring Training. In the regular season--maybe. Not Frank, Lee or Maggs though.

:rowand
I like running into things, Ozzie. I can do it!

Veeky
03-23-2004, 08:51 PM
Don't get me wrong -- if it's a life-or-death situation with divisiona on the line or a playoff game, I can see taking a risk in this situation.

But asking Frank to do what he CANNOT and SHOULD NOT do is begging for 2001 to be repeated IMO.

Hawk is damn right -- you don't ask Jimenez to bunt and you don't ask Thomas to run into catchers or play 1B.

I don't believe Big Mac slid head-first all that much in '98, either....Damn Cardinals, they never did know how to play the game the righta way.

mike squires
03-23-2004, 09:08 PM
Maybe Ozzie chewed out Cora for sending him. Sounded like he was out by a mile.

RKMeibalane
03-23-2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by mike squires
Maybe Ozzie chewed out Cora for sending him. Sounded like he was out by a mile.

Reminds me of all the times that Wavin' Wally was responsible for guys being nailed at the plate. Ugh!

cwsox
03-23-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by mike squires
Maybe Ozzie chewed out Cora for sending him. Sounded like he was out by a mile.

I missed the game thread - please do not tell hint that Cora is another Wavin Wally

I'm scared

Huisj
03-23-2004, 09:27 PM
so the better you are, the less hard you should play?

sounds like the ultimate sports catch-22. The better you are, the less likely you are to play at your full potential, because you won't go all out and play hard because you might get hurt. however, if you're not as good, you really could become more valuable by playing your balls off, except that in the long run it might make you have no value if you get hurt.

man, it's an unfair world we live in. the top dog is told not to try hard so he can stay the top dog, and the little dog is told he has to try really hard to become the top dog even though in the process he'll probably become the nothing dog.

batmanZoSo
03-23-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
This comment taken from the Game Thread (either from the *Official* or from the *Secret underground society* one, don't rememeber which)



NO. NO. NO.

We all remember how the last "Frank the All-Around player" Experiment ended, right?

He saw. He dove. He didn't didn't conquer, but he DID tear the **** out of his tricept, something that NOT only instantly KILLED our chances in 2001, but also, in retrospect, wiped out the 2002 season as well since it took him more than 12 months to recover and he was the center piece of our offense.

No success in 2001 meant poor attendace and little revenue throughout the year, which in turn resulted in us trying to "save" on an expensive FA veteran in the off-season by giving away Wells for "bargain" Ritchie. Ritchie, no Wells + not 100% Frank = wasted season = you guessed, the attendance/revenue shortage and less money to spend on 2003 payroll, which was a ridiculously low 51 Mill on OD, despite it being such a historic year, a year when we hosted the ASG....

Anyway, this time around, the money we DIDN't get in 2002 because the team didn't win and didn't attract crowds, Sox tried to "get" by swiping Foulke for then much cheaper Koch......We all know how that ended, I trust.....No playoffs again.

You might not think of it now, but it ALL began with Frank's injury. Eveything. We were coming off a triumphant 2000. Future looked bright.......

What did Santayana say about learning from the past again? Sorry, but I do NOT want Frank to pull that dangerous baserunner **** on the base-paths. I do NOT want Carlos and Ordonez to run through walls on meaningless plays. They are NOT replaceable -- in this tight, 3-team divisional race, the team that will stay the healthiest will, in all likelyhood, pull out the division title.......The reward of Frank running through a catcher is very SMALL. The RISK is HUGE -- at his age, a disk injury = CAREER OVER -- season over for sure.

Yankees can afford the "no guts, no glory" mentality because they can pay their way through major injuries. WE CAN'T. I hope Ozzie is not stupid enough to endanger the future just to possibly get an extra run. Frank is a station-to-station baserunner and a DH. Live with it. Forrest for the trees, as it were.

That was a freak accident. Frank's a great physical specimen, it's not like he's John Kruk over there. I can't find the exact number for the life of me, but last I heard his career BA at first is about 40 points higher than it is at DH. I don't think we lose too much with Frank out there over Konerko anyway.

Veeky
03-23-2004, 10:31 PM
so the better you are, the less hard you should play?

Huh? Frank CANNOT power-slide. He CANNOT field. There is NO "better" when it comes to those aspects of the game; he is terrible.

Nobody is asking him to stop trying to HIT as well as he possibly can here.....My god.

That was a freak accident.

No it wasn't. He didn't get hit by a bus. He tried to make an athletic play at 33 years of age, after a long DH stint, being a 6'5'', 275 pound monster that he is.....and in one instant 2001-2003 seasons were, in effect, flushed down the drain.

And even it it was a freaky accident....do you want to risk both 2004 and most likely 2005 season to find out? Feeling that lucky are we? I am not. He is almost 36 and a huge part of this team. I can live with him being a station-to-station base-runner and a DH.

I heard his career BA at first is about 40 points higher than it is at DH.

Pure coincidence. 1B sample size is SO small, no conclusion can be drawn.

voodoochile
03-23-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Huh? Frank CANNOT power-lide. He CANNOT field. There is NO "better" when it comes to those aspects of the game; he is terrible.

Pure coincidence. 1B sample size is SO small, no conclusion can be drawn.

Actually, no, it's not a small sample size. Also, compared to the other guys who can play first, Frank is not that much worse defensively and besides, it's first freaking base, how good do you have to be?

Frank hits better (WAY BETTER) when he plays 1B. That's where he belongs...

Veeky
03-24-2004, 02:02 AM
Actually, no, it's not a small sample size.

Really?

Man Soo Lee
03-24-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Veeky
Really?

Frank has still played more games at 1B than DH in his career.

doublem23
03-24-2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Frank has still played more games at 1B than DH in his career.

By 100 games (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml)

Veeky
03-24-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Frank has still played more games at 1B than DH in his career.

Do you honestly believe Frank of 1993-1997 has anything to do with Frank of 2004?

In the last 6 years, how many 1B at bats are we talking about?

Man Soo Lee
03-24-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Do you honestly believe Frank of 1993-1997 has anything to do with Frank of 2004?

No, but you first raised the issue of sample size while discussing the difference in Frank's career average at 1B vs. DH. Over his career, sample size isn't an issue.

Over the last few years, I'd agree that he hasn't played 1B enough to fairly evaluate the impact. Frank has sometimes suggested that playing 1B helps and, in small samples, the numbers back him up.

Deadguy
03-24-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Do you honestly believe Frank of 1993-1997 has anything to do with Frank of 2004?

In the last 6 years, how many 1B at bats are we talking about?

Here are the splits since 1994, if you want to see them:

Stat AB AVE OBP SLG OPS
1994:
1st 351 370 494 769 1263
DH 47 234 373 447 820

1995:
1st 316 329 478 687 1163
DH 177 271 411 463 874

1996:
1st 527 349 459 626 1085
DH 0

1997:
1st 355 363 467 662 1129
DH 175 314 435 509 944

1998:
1st 53 302 406 547 953
DH 532 261 378 474 852

1999:
1st 188 346 422 553 975
DH 295 281 412 424 836

2000:
1st 113 354 432 761 1193
DH 467 321 436 587 1023

2001:
1st 9 000 100 000 100
DH 58 259 353 517 870

2002:
1st 13 308 444 615 1059
DH 506 253 361 472 833

2003:
1st 91 352 487 725 1212
DH 453 252 371 532 903

I don't see why the Frank of 1993-1997 would be completely irrelevant to the Thomas of 2004. It helps to show a pattern that Thomas struggles when he DHs, since he has 45 minutes of downtime in between PAs. This is less of an issue at home, since he can use the down time hitting in a batting cage. On the road however, he has nothing to do but sit on the bench, and you can see from his home/road splits last season, there was a big difference in his numbers.

1995 and 1997 show 2 month stretches where Thomas was the DH, and the numbers aren't even close to what he did as a 1B. Those are significant sample sizes within the season. Last year he had well over 100 PAs at 1B, and there was a glaring difference. That is also a considerable sample size, when you consider the fact that people tend to judge player's Playoff performances with a lot of scrutiny, with much smaller sample sizes to draw conclusions from.