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delben91
03-22-2004, 01:27 PM
In today's Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox222.html) down at the bottom of the article, it's said that Jon Adkins is making a run at the last bullpen spot in competition with Mike Jackson. Now, I've never been a huge Adkins fan, and granted yesterday was just one bad outing for Grilli. But if both Adkins and Jackson are pitching well, and if Grilli continues (note I said "continues") to struggle, why not keep both Adkins and Jackson making Adkins the long man? I mean, could he really do any worse than Grilli? (except we'd have to return Grilli to Florida of course). Just a thought.

sas1974
03-22-2004, 01:37 PM
At this point, this doesn't seem like a bad option. But I agree that I would hate to had Grilli back to the Fish. His 8 walks thus far are a bit unsettling though.

hold2dibber
03-22-2004, 02:46 PM
If not for the fact that Grilli would have to be offered back to the Fish, I'm pretty sure Adkins would make the team over him. Does anyone know whether the Sox have to cut Jackson loose if he doesn't make the big-league team? IIRC, some veteran players, when they sign a minor-league deal with a team, include a provision that requires the team to release them if they don't make the major league roster out of ST.

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 09:08 PM
Jackson was quoted early in ST as saying he would not go to the Minor Leagues....

There are ways around losing Grilli back to the Marlins. The Sox could trade him. Perhaps they could offer Matt Ginter for him, since Ginter is out of options?

gosox41
03-22-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by delben91
In today's Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox222.html) down at the bottom of the article, it's said that Jon Adkins is making a run at the last bullpen spot in competition with Mike Jackson. Now, I've never been a huge Adkins fan, and granted yesterday was just one bad outing for Grilli. But if both Adkins and Jackson are pitching well, and if Grilli continues (note I said "continues") to struggle, why not keep both Adkins and Jackson making Adkins the long man? I mean, could he really do any worse than Grilli? (except we'd have to return Grilli to Florida of course). Just a thought.

Adkins is awful. The Sox are better off keeping Grilli on the roster.

Bob

owensmouth
03-22-2004, 09:51 PM
I believe that a rule 5 acquisition must stay with the major league team for the entire season. The alternative is that his original team gets him back for $25,000. Grilli either has to stick with the White Sox or the Marlins can take him back.

Daver
03-22-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Jackson was quoted early in ST as saying he would not go to the Minor Leagues....

There are ways around losing Grilli back to the Marlins. The Sox could trade him. Perhaps they could offer Matt Ginter for him, since Ginter is out of options?

They can't trade him,he was a rule 5 pick,he has to stay on their twenty five man roster or be returned to the Marlins.

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Daver
They can't trade him,he was a rule 5 pick,he has to stay on their twenty five man roster or be returned to the Marlins.

They sure as hell can trade him. If they trade him, the Rule 5 requirements follow him to his new team and they must keep him on their 25-man roster the whole season or offer him back to the Marlins for $25k.

If the Sox (or another team if he were traded) wanted to send him down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers. Any other MLB team could claim him and again, the Rule 5 requirement follows.

If he clears waivers, then the Sox could either make a trade with the Marlins to keep him or offer him back to the Marlins for $25k. The Marlins could decline if they didn't have room for him on their 40-man roster. If they take him back, but don't want to put him on their 40-man roster, he would be placed on waivers again, with every team having the opportunity of claiming him and keeping him on their 40-man roster, but would not be required to keep him in the Majors.

So there are indeed more options than one might think in the Rule 5 process.

Daver
03-22-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
They sure as hell can trade him. If they trade him, the Rule 5 requirements follow him to his new team and they must keep him on their 25-man roster the whole season or offer him back to the Marlins for $25k.

If the Sox (or another team if he were traded) wanted to send him down to the minors, he would have to clear waivers. Any other MLB team could claim him and again, the Rule 5 requirement follows.

If he clears waivers, then the Sox could either make a trade with the Marlins to keep him or offer him back to the Marlins for $25k. The Marlins could decline if they didn't have room for him on their 40-man roster. If they take him back, but don't want to put him on their 40-man roster, he would be placed on waivers again, with every team having the opportunity of claiming him and keeping him on their 40-man roster, but would not be required to keep him in the Majors.

So there are indeed more options than one might think in the Rule 5 process.

I know all the options,my point was no team will trade for a player that they can get on waivers and save the reclaim fee.

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I know all the options,my point was no team will trade for a player that they can get on waivers and save the reclaim fee.

Yeah Daver, you know everything. You are so full of crap it isn't funny. King of the backstroke should be your new nickname!

A team very well may want to trade for him if they think someone that has claiming rights ahead of them will claim him first. Is it likely? no...... But is it possible.

Daver
03-22-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Yeah Daver, you know everything. You are so full of crap it isn't funny. King of the backstroke should be your new nickname!

A team very well may want to trade for him if they think someone that has claiming rights ahead of them will claim him first. Is it likely? no...... But is it possible.


I'm full of crap?


Your talking dream trades with a player that is going to hit waivers yet I am full of crap?

Your act would probably play better elsewhere.

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'm full of crap?


Your talking dream trades with a player that is going to hit waivers yet I am full of crap?

Your act would probably play better elsewhere.

You said, and I quote, "he can't be traded, he was a rule 5 pick,he has to stay on their twenty five man roster or be returned to the Marlins". That is factually incorrect. He indeed can be traded. To any major league team, including the Marlins for the right to keep him.

Trading him back to the Marlins would be done after he cleared waivers, so your argument of "no team will trade for a player that they can get on waivers and save the reclaim fee" doesn't apply here, yet doesn't fit within your claim that "he can't be traded".

Why try to act like you knew what you were talking about when you were clearly wrong? If you knew all the options and just didn't word things properly, then why not just thank me for clearing things up and presenting the facts as they are?

Daver, if I am wrong I will admit it. It is obvious you have no such ability and your backstroking is laughable to anyone with any intelligence. We are all wrong at some point or another. There is no shame in it.

Daver
03-22-2004, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You said, and I quote, "he can't be traded, he was a rule 5 pick,he has to stay on their twenty five man roster or be returned to the Marlins". That is factually incorrect. He indeed can be traded. To any major league team, including the Marlins for the right to keep him.

Trading him back to the Marlins would be done after he cleared waivers, so your argument of "no team will trade for a player that they can get on waivers and save the reclaim fee" doesn't apply here, yet doesn't fit within your claim that "he can't be traded".

Why try to act like you knew what you were talking about when you were clearly wrong? If you knew all the options and just didn't word things properly, then why not just thank me for clearing things up and presenting the facts as they are?

Daver, if I am wrong I will admit it. It is obvious you have no such ability and your backstroking is laughable to anyone with any intelligence. We are all wrong at some point or another. There is no shame in it.

Why would I waste my time typing points in the rules that are common knowledge?

The point remains that no one would trade for a player that can be freely gotten off the waiver wire.

You are the one that feels the need to bring up the details in the rules that I feel are common knowledge,if that makes you happy so be it,but the bottom line doesn't change does it?

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Why would I waste my time typing points in the rules that are common knowledge?

The point remains that no one would trade for a player that can be freely gotten off the waiver wire.

You are the one that feels the need to bring up the details in the rules that I feel are common knowledge,if that makes you happy so be it,but the bottom line doesn't change does it?

You still haven't accounted for the possibility of obtaining his rights in a trade with the Marlins rather than sending him back there. In all your vast knowledge you seem to overlook this possibility. It has happened before so it is not a "dream trade".

The fact is, you were wrong and it is sad you must act like you know everything, when you clearly do not. Justify anything you want, but read back through this thread and it is obvious you were challenging my statement that there were other options. Then you magically mentioned that you knew the other options after I called you out. Your denial is humorous.

Go ahead, pull your rank around here and tell me to take my act elsewhere. Anyone with any intelligence can see right through that BS. You just can't handle being challenged.

DrCrawdad
03-22-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Jackson was quoted early in ST as saying he would not go to the Minor Leagues....

There are ways around losing Grilli back to the Marlins. The Sox could trade him. Perhaps they could offer Matt Ginter for him, since Ginter is out of options?

For whatever reason, it seems as though the Sox have lost confidence in Ginter. I could see the Sox simply cutting Ginter and then seeing him succeed somewhere else.

Daver
03-22-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You still haven't accounted for the possibility of obtaining his rights in a trade with the Marlins rather than sending him back there. In all your vast knowledge you seem to overlook this possibility. It has happened before so it is not a "dream trade".

The fact is, you were wrong and it is sad you must act like you know everything, when you clearly do not. Go ahead, pull your rank around here and tell me to take my act elsewhere. Anyone with any intelligence can see right through that BS. You just can't handle being challenged.

Rex feel free to continue your dream of the fact the Sox can get anything out of claiming Grille,more power to you,perhaps you might be right.

I think hogs will fly before it happens,but I have been wrong before.

I don't pull rank,but to make you happy I will refrain from responding to your posts in the future.

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Rex feel free to continue your dream of the fact the Sox can get anything out of claiming Grille,more power to you,perhaps you might be right.

I think hogs will fly before it happens,but I have been wrong before.

I don't pull rank,but to make you happy I will refrain from responding to your posts in the future.

Again, I said there are options. I didn't guarantee any of them would happen. But there is precedent for it. See Eric Hinske.

Ignoring my posts won't make me happy or sad, but do what you want. But when you are wrong, I will be happy to let you know. Maybe I can help you work a little harder to be accurate in the future. Maybe that is how I can have a positive effect on this board. ;-)

Rex Hudler
03-22-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
For whatever reason, it seems as though the Sox have lost confidence in Ginter. I could see the Sox simply cutting Ginter and then seeing him succeed somewhere else.

Ginter has just never stepped up when he has had the opportunity. Unfortunately for him he has never been given a clear path either. I have heard numerous comments indicating concerns about his mental makeup. I can't say if there is any validity to that, but I have heard it more than once and from different sources over the past few years. Perhaps that has something to do with the Sox lack of confidence in him?

RichFitztightly
03-23-2004, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Why would I waste my time typing points in the rules that are common knowledge?

The point remains that no one would trade for a player that can be freely gotten off the waiver wire.

You are the one that feels the need to bring up the details in the rules that I feel are common knowledge,if that makes you happy so be it,but the bottom line doesn't change does it?

It wasn't common knowledge to me. I appreciated all the points to the rule.

Veeky
03-23-2004, 01:07 AM
Matt Ginter is a quintessential AAAA reliever: when he is in the minors, his heater used to top out at 94, with some heavy-ness to it; he had control, got ahead of hitters AND finished them off with that nasty, Howry-eque slider.

At the majors, the first couple of years, he looked SCARED. Knees literally shaking. Falling beheind. Mechanics falling apart, fastball losing velocity (only 89-92 in the bigs) and that slider rarely given a chance to work in the out-pitch role since Matt is getting hit hard.....Long story short, don't count on him.

Adkins? Billy Beane saw something in him, right? Two pitch pitcher ala Ginter, right? From what i saw in his pbrief ML stint last season, he is 93-97 range, but the ball is STRAIGHT. If he can pinpoint it, it's not a big problem -- but he had lousy control, which didn't help. His breaking ball? Solid, but nothing special from what I've seen, which admittedly not a lot.

Daver, Randar, jeremy....Thouhgts on this guy? His lack of K was more than alarming IMO.

jeremyb1
03-23-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Veeky
Matt Ginter is a quintessential AAAA reliever: when he is in the minors, his heater used to top out at 94, with some heavy-ness to it; he had control, got ahead of hitters AND finished them off with that nasty, Howry-eque slider.

At the majors, the first couple of years, he looked SCARED. Knees literally shaking. Falling beheind. Mechanics falling apart, fastball losing velocity (only 89-92 in the bigs) and that slider rarely given a chance to work in the out-pitch role since Matt is getting hit hard.....Long story short, don't count on him.

Adkins? Billy Beane saw something in him, right? Two pitch pitcher ala Ginter, right? From what i saw in his pbrief ML stint last season, he is 93-97 range, but the ball is STRAIGHT. If he can pinpoint it, it's not a big problem -- but he had lousy control, which didn't help. His breaking ball? Solid, but nothing special from what I've seen, which admittedly not a lot.

Daver, Randar, jeremy....Thouhgts on this guy? His lack of K was more than alarming IMO.

Supposedly Ginter's problem is he can't get lefties out. I'm not aware of any sites with minor league splits so I can't confirm or deny it but I assume the stats bore it out. I think he'd be a good guy in the back of the pen. He'd probably outperform Takatsu.

You're dead on with Adkins. For a guy that is supposedly a power pitcher he doesn't strike many guys out. This spring is no different as he has 1 k in 6 ip. I'll be the first to tell you spring stats aren't important but he wasn't very good at Charlotte last season.

Veeky
03-23-2004, 01:44 AM
He'd probably outperform Takatsu.

Dear g-d I hope not.

We absolutely need Shingo to beat the 4.00 ERA barrier and so far he hasn't shown anything other than he either gets hammered or strikes people out with that nasty change. Does anyone know what's his third pitch he can throw for strikes?

If this season hinges on the likes of Ginter and Grilli, we're in deep trouble.

Rex Hudler
03-23-2004, 01:47 AM
Supposedly Ginter's problem is he can't get lefties out.

There is some evidence of that, but it hasn't been consistent. Lately, it has been more of a problem. Here are his splits since 2000 (BA against only)....

2000 in Birmingham (179.2 IP)
vs. RH - .208
vs. LH - .266

2001 in Charlotte (76.1 IP)
vs. RH - .244
vs. LH - .180

2002 in Charlotte (16 IP)
vs. RH - .311
vs. LH - .316

2002 in Chicago (54.1 IP)
vs. RH - .189
vs. LH - .330

2003 in Charlotte (68.1 IP)
vs. RH - .193
vs. LH - .343

Actually, 2001 looks like an aberration. His 16 IP in Charlotte in 2002 weren't enough to give you an accurate read.

Veeky
03-23-2004, 02:15 AM
vs. RH - .193

You know what? I retract my statement -- I WILL take a Ginter to go. Kelly Wunsht can get lefties out and Matty-Matt can take care of an occasonal RHP or two.

Does anyone have his ML splits?

Rex Hudler
03-23-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Veeky
You know what? I retract my statement -- I WILL take a Ginter to go. Kelly Wunsht can get lefties out and Matty-Matt can take care of an occasonal RHP or two.

Does anyone have his ML splits?

Just the ones from 2002 listed above.

jeremyb1
03-23-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
We absolutely need Shingo to beat the 4.00 ERA barrier

If couldn't do it in Japan, I'm skeptical he can do it here.

jeremyb1
03-23-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
There is some evidence of that, but it hasn't been consistent. Lately, it has been more of a problem. Here are his splits since 2000 (BA against only)....

Thank you. Great stats. Where'd you get them?

SoxxoS
03-23-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
If couldn't do it in Japan, I'm skeptical he can do it here.

This Shingo experiment is a disaster.

:KW

"Hey. Don't worry. Barry Bonds said Takatsu's ball moves the most out of anyone he has ever seen. Barry wouldn't lie to me."

sas1974
03-23-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
This Shingo experiment is a disaster.

:KW

"Hey. Don't worry. Barry Bonds said Takatsu's ball moves the most out of anyone he has ever seen. Barry wouldn't lie to me."

It moves alright...about 450 ft in the opposite direction. :D:

Veeky
03-23-2004, 03:47 PM
This Shingo experiment is a disaster.

Excuse me? Did I miss something? Did I *****-eat my way through April and May without noticing so?

I am disappointed as much as anyone, but I think calling it an unmitigated disaster is a bit premature.

IMO/

SoxxoS
03-23-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Veeky
Excuse me? Did I miss something? Did I *****-eat my way through April and May without noticing so?

I am disappointed as much as anyone, but I think calling it an unmitigated disaster is a bit premature.

IMO/

It is premature, and I was open-minded at first. Now, Shingo has to prove me wrong. The guy is getting lit up consistantly. Spring training DOES matter when you are from a different country. It doesn't matter for Frank, Maggs or Buerhle, but it does for Shingo.

Add that to the fact the Sox are NEVER the first ones to do anything (i.e. take a chance on a foreign player, until now) and realizing all those other teams passed on him, tells me something.

We stuck gold with Loiaza and Gordon last year, but how many more times do you think that's going to happen?

Plus, he had issues last year getting Japanese hitters out. BP did a piece on how his numbers will translate into the bigs, and it wasn't good. Wasn't good at all.

TaylorStSox
03-23-2004, 04:16 PM
I wouldn't be so down on Shingo. He's just going to used as a "bridge reliever." He'll be a situational pitcher to 1 or 2 right handers and then he'll be pulled.

Rex Hudler
03-23-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Thank you. Great stats. Where'd you get them?

A site that is not available to the public and one I am not supposed to have access to. Would rather just leave it at that, so I don't lose my "priveleges". :)

Happy Felsch Fan
03-23-2004, 05:48 PM
I saw Shingo twice last week in ST and was not impressed. Our best middle relief option may be Danny Wright, but I think he will be our 5th starter.

jeremyb1
03-23-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
It is premature, and I was open-minded at first. Now, Shingo has to prove me wrong. The guy is getting lit up consistantly. Spring training DOES matter when you are from a different country. It doesn't matter for Frank, Maggs or Buerhle, but it does for Shingo.

I really don't think spring is much of an issue. Its age and decreasing performance in Japan the last few seasons. It doesn't take a genius to tell you that 1) pitchers tend to decline by 35 2) Takatsu's stats have been on the decline the past few seasons 3) it is easier to retire hitters in Japan 4) Hence, an ERA of 4 in the Japanese leagues will be much much higher in the US. That's without delving into his poor peripheral stats.