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ChiSox7
03-20-2004, 04:25 PM
Harold Baines new bench coach. not a big surprise.

The_Floridian
03-20-2004, 04:26 PM
Reinsdorf just announced on the broadcast that Harold Baines will be joining Ozzie in the dugout as bench coach.

Wow. I'm sorry to Nossek go, but good ol' Harold in the dugout? That makes it okay.

ChiSox7
03-20-2004, 04:26 PM
LATE! ;)

The_Floridian
03-20-2004, 04:29 PM
You mean this post is late?

Damn. Thought I was breaking some big news.

Well crapola.

The_Floridian
03-20-2004, 04:31 PM
Ah hah! There's the first post on this. Should've seen this.

"Well the sloth nailed him. You know he never was much of a quick draw." --The Far Side

idseer
03-20-2004, 04:43 PM
exactly what are a bench coach's duties?

dickallen15
03-20-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by idseer
exactly what are a bench coach's duties?

When JM was here, it was to wake him if he had to do something.

SoxEd
03-20-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
When JM was here, it was to wake him if he had to do something.
LOL

Brian26
03-20-2004, 05:05 PM
Harold seems like a good guy and has a nice relationship with some of the players, but I'm very skeptical about what he can contribute to help Ozzie. I would have liked to have seen someone in there that's considered more of a student of the game.

TornLabrum
03-20-2004, 05:25 PM
The one time I spent any time with Ozzie and Harold was at a WCSF luncheon. Ozzie talked through the entire meal while Harold might have said a half dozen words. I kind of wonder what his role will be, too. In fact this became a subject of the column I just submitted a few minutes ago.

harwar
03-20-2004, 06:10 PM
A bench coach should know and comprehend all aspects of baseball.The bench coach should know baseball better than anyone else on the team.Kind of a one man think tank who knows all the little things most guys don't even dream about.
I love Harold,but as a bench coach,hes' a joke.
JRs' obsesion with Harold is just a little bit disturbing.

Hangar18
03-20-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Harold seems like a good guy and has a nice relationship with some of the players, but I'm very skeptical about what he can contribute to help Ozzie. I would have liked to have seen someone in there that's considered more of a student of the game.

I am in Brian26's Camp here. This sounds great on paper,
and had we been the cubs, this would be Sensationalized in the Media as a "coming home" headline. However, because were smarter than that, Im very skeptical as to what this means.
Very Skeptical

Hangar18
03-20-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by idseer
exactly what are a bench coach's duties?

a bench coach is the same as a Town Elder. A wise man who, though old and decrepit, should still and can be counted on for valuable advice. We ARE GOING TO MISS NOSSEK

voodoochile
03-20-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
a bench coach is the same as a Town Elder. A wise man who, though old and decrepit, should still and can be counted on for valuable advice. We ARE GOING TO MISS NOSSEK

There might be something else going on here. It maybe that the Sox are looking for a quiet type to offset Ozzie's natural exuberance.

Maybe Haaarold is intended more for an outlet for players than anything else.

Ozzie and Haaarold were two of my favorites from early in my Sox fandom. Not sure they will make great managers, but who knows...

Daver
03-20-2004, 07:13 PM
My fear that the coming season is going to be a complete trainwreck just got compounded.

idseer
03-20-2004, 07:17 PM
so i gather most of you think that harold isn't what you'd call a student of the game. i know he's a man of few words but i've never heard anyone refer to him as unknowledgable of the game or not able to handle a position of power.
i wonder if we're guessing about this or do insiders know better?

voodoochile
03-20-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Daver
My fear that the coming season is going to be a complete trainwreck just got compounded.

It's probably the wine talking, but I actually feel much better than I did a few months ago. Still don't know if the Sox have the pitching to win the division, but the players are responding positively to Ozzie and some of the question marks are having good springs (Uribe, Crede, Rowand). Still think they will finish second, but anything is possible and honestly their isn't a marked talent discrepancy between them and their division rivals.

Now if they want to actually make a run at it all, they better find some more pitching...

VeeckAsInWreck
03-20-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I am in Brian26's Camp here. This sounds great on paper,
and had we been the cubs, this would be Sensationalized in the Media as a "coming home" headline. However, because were smarter than that, Im very skeptical as to what this means.
Very Skeptical

I agree, but if we were the Cubs. ATA would have done more new commercials talking about how they flew Harold in.

Imagine if Andre Dawson became the Cubs hitting coach? The Chicago media would wear "Chicago Cubs 2004 World Series Champion" T-shirts.

duke of dorwood
03-20-2004, 07:20 PM
I dont think this is the right way to capitalize on past favorites, putting them in a position to fail, and fail badly.

idseer
03-20-2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Daver
My fear that the coming season is going to be a complete trainwreck just got compounded.

daver, i know you were very vocal about ozzie not being the man for the job. are you still as skeptical or has ozzie's handling of the club so far softened your stance?

and btw, would a compounded complete trainwreck be any worse than a complete trainwreck? :D:

voodoochile
03-20-2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I dont think this is the right way to capitalize on past favorites, putting them in a position to fail, and fail badly.

Oh come on, it's the bench coach. Steal some signals, tell Ozzie if you see something worth noting, try to learn pitchers pickoff moves so you know when to steal (I think the team has a green light to start anyway).

It's still not rocket science...

ChiSox7
03-20-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh come on, it's the bench coach. Steal some signals, tell Ozzie if you see something worth noting, try to learn pitchers pickoff moves so you know when to steal (I think the team has a green light to start anyway).

It's still not rocket science...

Exactly. It's like people are LOOKING for some reason to say the Sox will struggle this season. I just don't get it. It's not a big deal one way or the other.

voodoochile
03-20-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
Exactly. It's like people are LOOKING for some reason to say the Sox will struggle this season. I just don't get it. It's not a big deal one way or the other.

In addition, wasn't Manuel a bench coach and didn't he go back to being a bench coach? If Jerry can do it, anyone can...

Daver
03-20-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer
daver, i know you were very vocal about ozzie not being the man for the job. are you still as skeptical or has ozzie's handling of the club so far softened your stance?

and btw, would a compounded complete trainwreck be any worse than a complete trainwreck? :D:

I have seen nothing so far in ST that gives me any more confidence with Ozzie as a manager than I had when he was hired.

Hopefully Ozzie proves me wrong.

jabrch
03-20-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I have seen nothing so far in ST that gives me any more confidence with Ozzie as a manager than I had when he was hired.

Hopefully Ozzie proves me wrong.

Daver, haven't you seen a team where the starters have played fundamentally solid baseball? moving runners, sacrificing, putting the bat on the ball, etc.

I am pleased with what I have seen so far. I think this team will be better than I initially expected.

cornball
03-20-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by harwar
A bench coach should know and comprehend all aspects of baseball.The bench coach should know baseball better than anyone else on the team.Kind of a one man think tank who knows all the little things most guys don't even dream about.
I love Harold,but as a bench coach,hes' a joke.
JRs' obsesion with Harold is just a little bit disturbing.

While I agree with you, he is a good listener.

poorme
03-20-2004, 10:28 PM
Worth of a bench coach = .0001 games/year.

Harold Baines played in over 2800 major league games. I think he probably knows a few things.

Daver
03-20-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Daver, haven't you seen a team where the starters have played fundamentally solid baseball? moving runners, sacrificing, putting the bat on the ball, etc.

I am pleased with what I have seen so far. I think this team will be better than I initially expected.

ST tells me nothing about how Ozzie handles a pitching staff,and when all is said and done,pitching and offense are what it takes to win in the AL,in that order.Like I have said more than once,I hope Ozzie proves me wrong.

Daver
03-20-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Worth of a bench coach = .0001 games/year.



There is so many things wrong with this statement that I will not even bother to debate it.

Brian26
03-20-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Daver
There is so many things wrong with this statement that I will not even bother to debate it.

Yep.

If Nossek stole ONE sign last year that got ONE guy picked off in the late innings of a close game, he contributed at the very least one victory to the club. That's at the VERY LEAST.

My thoughts going into the season is that I'd like to see Ozzie surrounded by as many competent baseball guys as possible. Coop will have to hold his hand when dealing with the pitching staff. Walker seems like he'll do a decent job with the hitters. A guy like Nossek or Torborg would have been invaluable sitting next to Ozzie during the season. With a rookie manager, I'm blown away they're going with Harold as an advisor on the bench.

Can anyone here honestly say you feel in good hands with Ozzie and Harold against the braintrust of a team like Torre and Zimmer? (An example, as I know Zimmer is gone from NY). This could be a long season.

Medford Bobby
03-21-2004, 12:47 AM
yea, your right, he's already on the payroll........... :)



:gulp: :harold He da man..........

ChiSox7
03-21-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Yep.

If Nossek stole ONE sign last year that got ONE guy picked off in the late innings of a close game, he contributed at the very least one victory to the club. That's at the VERY LEAST.

My thoughts going into the season is that I'd like to see Ozzie surrounded by as many competent baseball guys as possible. Coop will have to hold his hand when dealing with the pitching staff. Walker seems like he'll do a decent job with the hitters. A guy like Nossek or Torborg would have been invaluable sitting next to Ozzie during the season. With a rookie manager, I'm blown away they're going with Harold as an advisor on the bench.

Can anyone here honestly say you feel in good hands with Ozzie and Harold against the braintrust of a team like Torre and Zimmer? (An example, as I know Zimmer is gone from NY). This could be a long season.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you think this will be a long season because Baines in the bench coach and Nossek is not, you are way off base. If the pitching sucks, it will be a long season. If the hitting sucks, it will be a long season. It will NOT be a long season because the Minnesota bench coach out thinks our bench coach. You are just LOOKING for something to bitch at.

npdempse
03-21-2004, 02:42 AM
I'm with the camp that holds--until he demonstrates otherwise--that this job should not be Harold's. If they want to bring back somebody, give JR's first born to bring in Fisk; a catcher just seems way more suited to such a job. But at least get somebody with experience to balance Ozzie.

IA_soxfan
03-21-2004, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Yep.

If Nossek stole ONE sign last year that got ONE guy picked off in the late innings of a close game, he contributed at the very least one victory to the club. That's at the VERY LEAST.

My thoughts going into the season is that I'd like to see Ozzie surrounded by as many competent baseball guys as possible. Coop will have to hold his hand when dealing with the pitching staff. Walker seems like he'll do a decent job with the hitters. A guy like Nossek or Torborg would have been invaluable sitting next to Ozzie during the season. With a rookie manager, I'm blown away they're going with Harold as an advisor on the bench.

Can anyone here honestly say you feel in good hands with Ozzie and Harold against the braintrust of a team like Torre and Zimmer? (An example, as I know Zimmer is gone from NY). This could be a long season.

I seem to remember a play during the crosstown series this past year where Nossek stole the Flubs' sign and called a pitch out. The runner was out at second by a mile. I think it was a big play. Anybody else remember this?

soxfan26
03-21-2004, 09:46 AM
My thoughts on Harold being a bench coach...

The man spent more than 3/4 of his career as a DH. Meaning that he spent the majority of his time on the bench, watching the game, possibly even engaging the bench coach and manager in conversation.

I'm not saying this automatically means that Harold did these things. But he had ample opportunity over 2,800 major league games to become a "student of the game".

In addition to that the man has been a consummate professional over the last 20 years and is my favorite Sox player of all time.

Go Harold!

Go Ozzie!

Go Sox Go!

poorme
03-21-2004, 10:14 AM
Just when did Zimmer go from being one of the worst in-game strategy managers to the "brains" behind the world series champs?

It's a joke. A manager is only worth a couple of games in itself. I'd love for someone to show me some rigorous research suggesting otherwise.

TornLabrum
03-21-2004, 10:52 AM
I'm not so much worried about Harold's experience, or lack thereof. What bothers me is that with Ozzie's 24/7 monologue with himself and anyone who will listen to him, when will Harold be able to get a word in edgewise if he does spot something?

idseer
03-21-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Just when did Zimmer go from being one of the worst in-game strategy managers to the "brains" behind the world series champs?

It's a joke. A manager is only worth a couple of games in itself. I'd love for someone to show me some rigorous research suggesting otherwise.

i think manuel disproves that theory. he HAD to have cost the sox 25 - 30 games all by himself over the last 3 years.

ondafarm
03-21-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
My thoughts on Harold being a bench coach...

The man spent more than 3/4 of his career as a DH. Meaning that he spent the majority of his time on the bench, watching the game, possibly even engaging the bench coach and manager in conversation .


If you think this is the case then you don't know Harold Baines.

ewokpelts
03-21-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
In addition, wasn't Manuel a bench coach and didn't he go back to being a bench coach? If Jerry can do it, anyone can...
jerry got a new job?
Gene

sas1974
03-21-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
If you think this is the case then you don't know Harold Baines.

I actually don't think I can recall anyone ever complaining that Harold talked too much.

jabrch
03-21-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
This could be a long season.


Yeah, but if this is going to be a long season, it would have with or without Nossek being there.

Not to understate the value of a bench coach, but ultimately it is far less significant than that of the players and the manager.

CubKilla
03-21-2004, 01:09 PM
I'm unimpressed. Maybe Harold will surprise us though. I hope he does. Always liked him considering he never compared himself to Jesus.

ScottyTheSoxFan
03-21-2004, 08:06 PM
does this mean Baines is officially retired now?

Daver
03-21-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
does this mean Baines is officially retired now?



Haven't you ever heard of a player/coach?



:bandance:

voodoochile
03-21-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Haven't you ever heard of a player/coach?



:bandance:

Didn't they outlaw that a few years back?

Daver
03-21-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Didn't they outlaw that a few years back?


There is no language in the CBA to prohibit a player/coach,but it would create a mess from the salary and perks portion of the CBA...........

daveeym
03-21-2004, 10:36 PM
Okay, a players natural playing ability and how he performs is entirely different than their baseball knowledge. Anyone that's been around the game as much as harold is a good thing. If you asked him a question about what he regretted most likely the answer would probably be age and injuries reducing him to an incomplete ball player (right after not having won a WS with the Sox). Honestly look at the last couple of years and there is no way we can do worse unless this team just flat out says "Screw you ozzie, harold and Joey, you have no experience and can go to hell." If that's the case we're doomed anyway. We either have a bunch of stiffs or a bunch of talent that was stifled by JM. The Ozzie and Co. experiment may fail but I believe that is an indictment of the players not the management.

mike squires
03-21-2004, 11:01 PM
Wow, I"ve been away for a few days, this is big news to me...Many of you may be surprized on Harolds knowledge of the game. He's been helping the youngsters the past few seasons. I remember hearing him at Soxfest in 2000 and 2001, despite bieng so softspoken people LISTENED when he spoke and when he did speak was very intelligent and had great knowledge of the game...guess we shall see.

I'll bet you anything Nossek knew when he was leaving and was mentoring Harold last year. I always thought it was strange to see Harold there when all of the other coaching roles were filled. Also Considering Nossek chose to leave right before the season.

ShoelessFred
03-22-2004, 01:08 AM
YES! now we get to reunretire good ol' #3 and then rererere-retire it again at some point!

WHAT IS JR'S FREAKING OBSESSION WITH THIS GUY. OMFG! this is absolutely scary. does harold have some pics of jerry and eddie einhorn in some compromising "position" or something?

soxfan26
03-22-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by ondafarm
If you think this is the case then you don't know Harold Baines.

Well you've got me there. I don't know Harold. Maybe you do and there is something you can fill me in on?

The man is soft spoken not a mute.

Baby Fisk
03-22-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
YES! now we get to reunretire good ol' #3 and then rererere-retire it again at some point!

WHAT IS JR'S FREAKING OBSESSION WITH THIS GUY. OMFG! this is absolutely scary. does harold have some pics of jerry and eddie einhorn in some compromising "position" or something?

LOL! No kidding! On the plus side, at least JR isn't obsessed with Spanky Lavalliere or Jamie Navarro. What next? Tom Seaver as pitching coach?!?!

Does this mean all the radio ads have to be reworked?!

FAN #1 -- "Yep, looks like the same lineup as last year. I'm really worried about our rotation..."

FAN #2 -- "Don't worry! WE GOT HAROLD IN THE DUGOUT WITH OZZIE NOW!"

FAN #1 -- "YEE HAW! We gonna party like it's 1985!"

sas1974
03-22-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by ShoelessFred
does harold have some pics of jerry and eddie einhorn in some compromising "position" or something?

I recall a while back in an interview, someone asked Charles Barkley how in the world Jerry Krause still had a job after running the Bulls into the ground. He said. "I don't know. He must have some pictures of Jerry Reinsdorf having sex w/ a monkey or something." Maybe he gave those pics to Harold?

Mammoo
03-22-2004, 03:52 PM
Windy City Report On Harold (http://www.sparkpod.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/sparkpod.woa/wa/view?1008688)

poorme
03-22-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Windy City Report On Harold (http://www.sparkpod.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/sparkpod.woa/wa/view?1008688)

do we really care who gets coffee for Ozzie on those blustery April afternoons?


YES! If Harold puts in Equal instead of sugar, we are SCREWED!

KingXerxes
03-22-2004, 05:05 PM
While I can't comment with any certainty whatsoever as to whether Harold Baines will be a good bench coach or a lousy one, this much is certain - this organization continues with some sort of infighting or political gamesmanship - and it makes me sick.

Was it Ozzie Guillen - who felt as though the older and more experienced Nossek was taking away from his authority???? And if so, does this move effectively neuter Kenny Williams as being in control of the "on the field" employment picture????? Was it Jerry Reinsdorf, who - after seeing his beloved Harold Baines in a nebulous coaching role - sought to solidify good old #3 position into everday employment???? Two weeks before opening day, and somebody is playing games! Join us tomorrow for more of:

The Edge of Night

uribe151
03-22-2004, 05:16 PM
22 years in the big leagues
.290 average
these are pretty solid credentials
(notice how teams were always trying to get him back?)

harold is going to be GREAT!

by the way, too bad hawk and farmer aren't the silent types, too...

Fridaythe13thJason
03-22-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by uribe151
22 years in the big leagues
.290 average
these are pretty solid credentials
(notice how teams were always trying to get him back?)

harold is going to be GREAT!

by the way, too bad hawk and farmer aren't the silent types, too...

I'm not sure what those wonderful hitting credentials have to do with being a bench coach.

Brian26
03-22-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by uribe151
22 years in the big leagues
.290 average
these are pretty solid credentials
(notice how teams were always trying to get him back?)

harold is going to be GREAT!

by the way, too bad hawk and farmer aren't the silent types, too...

Some of the best players in the world can't communicate their knowledge of the game and are terrible coaches. Likewise, some of the worst players turn out to the be the best managers and coaches. Harold's big league stats have nothing to do with his coaching ability.

Baby Fisk
03-22-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
While I can't comment with any certainty whatsoever as to whether Harold Baines will be a good bench coach or a lousy one, this much is certain - this organization continues with some sort of infighting or political gamesmanship - and it makes me sick.

Was it Ozzie Guillen - who felt as though the older and more experienced Nossek was taking away from his authority???? And if so, does this move effectively neuter Kenny Williams as being in control of the "on the field" employment picture????? Was it Jerry Reinsdorf, who - after seeing his beloved Harold Baines in a nebulous coaching role - sought to solidify good old #3 position into everday employment???? Two weeks before opening day, and somebody is playing games! Join us tomorrow for more of:

The Edge of Night

KingXerxes: Have you ever looked inside an organization and found it completely free of infighting or political gamesmanship?

KingXerxes
03-22-2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
KingXerxes: Have you ever looked inside an organization and found it completely free of infighting or political gamesmanship?

No, but there are degrees to it.

It all starts at the top. If the owner doesn't allow people to curry favor - then people generally won't try to "get in his good graces". Reinsdorf is obviously a person who either 1 - enjoys watching the drones scurry around to make him happy or 2- has a real Achilles Heel in that he can't tell when somebody is a lackey or 3 - is so insecure that the "checks and balances" in his business plan is simply to pit everybody against everybody else so that everybody is reporting to him what is going on at any point in time.

I suspect it's #3. I've worked in organizations like that - and it's so counterproductive that it's sickening. Every ranking member of the White Sox organization Williams, Guillen - even Ken Harrelson - spends time looking over the other guy's shoulder, and reporting it upstairs. All of them think they have Reinsdorf's ear, at the expense of the other one. People were shocked when they heard about Wally Backman calling the Minnesota locker room to root against the White Sox so he could get the job as manager. I had to laugh, because, in that case, they White Sox organization was reaping what it sowed.

Why Harold Baines as bench coach? My guess is that somebody thought this is what Reinsdorf wanted. Williams? Maybe. Guillen? Maybe. Who knows, with these guys Nossek might have told off Harrelson who dutifully reported it to Reinsdorf, who told Williams to do it. The possibilities are endless, but one thing stands for certain - the political jockeying is getting very close to the start of the season, and that's not good.

voodoochile
03-22-2004, 06:40 PM
Remember that after Haaarold was traded for ShamMEMEME, JR immediately retired Haaarold's number, even though (as was pointed out by several media people) Haaarold wasn't done with it yet.

Foulke You
03-22-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Why Harold Baines as bench coach? My guess is that somebody thought this is what Reinsdorf wanted. Williams? Maybe. Guillen? Maybe. Who knows, with these guys Nossek might have told off Harrelson who dutifully reported it to Reinsdorf, who told Williams to do it. The possibilities are endless, but one thing stands for certain - the political jockeying is getting very close to the start of the season, and that's not good.

Have you ever thought that perhaps Ozzie Guillen has a tremendous amount of respect for Harold Baines as a player, person, and his knowledge of the game and that is why he got the job? Perhaps with Harold being already involved with the team in Spring Training, he has developed a good relationship with many of the players currently on the squad and that also helped him get the inside track on the job? Not every move with this team is politically motivated. I don't think Ozzie chose Harold because he thought it would make the boss happy. Were there better candidates out there? Maybe. But I think Ozzie chose the guy he wanted without anyone chirping in his ear.

TornLabrum
03-22-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Have you ever thought that perhaps Ozzie Guillen has a tremendous amount of respect for Harold Baines as a player, person, and his knowledge of the game and that is why he got the job? Perhaps with Harold being already involved with the team in Spring Training, he has developed a good relationship with many of the players currently on the squad and that also helped him get the inside track on the job? Not every move with this team is politically motivated. I don't think Ozzie chose Harold because he thought it would make the boss happy. Were there better candidates out there? Maybe. But I think Ozzie chose the guy he wanted without anyone chirping in his ear.

Agreed. Ozzie and Harold are buddies and have been for years.

Daver
03-22-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Agreed. Ozzie and Harold are buddies and have been for years.

Great.

Between the two of them they have as much experience running an MLB ballclub as you and I do.

TornLabrum
03-22-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Great.

Between the two of them they have as much experience running an MLB ballclub as you and I do.

And either of us could have done a better job of it than Gen. Disarray.

Baby Fisk
03-23-2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
No, but there are degrees to it.

It all starts at the top. If the owner doesn't allow people to curry favor - then people generally won't try to "get in his good graces". Reinsdorf is obviously a person who either 1 - enjoys watching the drones scurry around to make him happy or 2- has a real Achilles Heel in that he can't tell when somebody is a lackey or 3 - is so insecure that the "checks and balances" in his business plan is simply to pit everybody against everybody else so that everybody is reporting to him what is going on at any point in time.

I suspect it's #3. I've worked in organizations like that - and it's so counterproductive that it's sickening. Every ranking member of the White Sox organization Williams, Guillen - even Ken Harrelson - spends time looking over the other guy's shoulder, and reporting it upstairs. All of them think they have Reinsdorf's ear, at the expense of the other one. People were shocked when they heard about Wally Backman calling the Minnesota locker room to root against the White Sox so he could get the job as manager. I had to laugh, because, in that case, they White Sox organization was reaping what it sowed.

Why Harold Baines as bench coach? My guess is that somebody thought this is what Reinsdorf wanted. Williams? Maybe. Guillen? Maybe. Who knows, with these guys Nossek might have told off Harrelson who dutifully reported it to Reinsdorf, who told Williams to do it. The possibilities are endless, but one thing stands for certain - the political jockeying is getting very close to the start of the season, and that's not good.

No offense, but these are a lot of unsubstantiated hunches. We could go on for days or write 500-post threads wondering why the organization makes the moves it does, but unless you know what's going on in these people's heads, this kind of speculation and innuendo has little merit. Look at it this way: to this point, media reports have shown us a pretty positive attitude among the players in Arizona. Ozzie has been favourably received, and there's no reason to think that Harold won't be either. If the media kept printing a rash of "bad attitude" or "infighting" stories, I might be more receptive to the argument that there's a lot of damaging political jockeying going on behind the scenes -- more than the norm, anyway.

KingXerxes
03-23-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
No offense, but these are a lot of unsubstantiated hunches. We could go on for days or write 500-post threads wondering why the organization makes the moves it does, but unless you know what's going on in these people's heads, this kind of speculation and innuendo has little merit. Look at it this way: to this point, media reports have shown us a pretty positive attitude among the players in Arizona. Ozzie has been favourably received, and there's no reason to think that Harold won't be either. If the media kept printing a rash of "bad attitude" or "infighting" stories, I might be more receptive to the argument that there's a lot of damaging political jockeying going on behind the scenes -- more than the norm, anyway.

I readily admit that I have no idea who or why the bench coach was changed, and that every thing I posted regarding that situation is pure and simple speculation. The only solid fact regarding the change is that it took place waaaaaaaaaaay to close to the beginning of the regular season, and that troubles me to a great extent.

As far as the great press Guillen is getting, that's symptomatic of the fact that he's still on his honeymoon with the media - and that he's very quoteable. Last year when Manuel was manager there were rampant media reports of infighting throughout all levels of this organization. I for one do not think that Ozzie Guillen's presence has cured all ills within the entire organization, I do not think he's some sort of Messiah. I for one will not confuse popularity with the press as being the same thing as a good manager. When the season starts, I'll start judging him based upon what I see. Again - I have no idea if he'll be any good or not as a manager - I hope he does very well. All I've ever said about Guillen since he's been hired is that I don't like the fact that the White Sox are trying to pull a public relations rabbit out of their hat with the guy - it's a major gamble because if it doesn't work out and you've not only tied the team's won/loss record to him, but the media credibility as well. Imagine if the team gets off to a slow start and all the radio spots are of Guillen talking about having fun - too risky and I don't know why they continue to do things like this.

Baby Fisk
03-23-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I for one do not think that Ozzie Guillen's presence has cured all ills within the entire organization, I do not think he's some sort of Messiah. I for one will not confuse popularity with the press as being the same thing as a good manager. When the season starts, I'll start judging him based upon what I see. Again - I have no idea if he'll be any good or not as a manager - I hope he does very well. All I've ever said about Guillen since he's been hired is that I don't like the fact that the White Sox are trying to pull a public relations rabbit out of their hat with the guy - it's a major gamble because if it doesn't work out and you've not only tied the team's won/loss record to him, but the media credibility as well.

Agreed on all points.

Fridaythe13thJason
03-23-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Great.

Between the two of them they have as much experience running an MLB ballclub as you and I do.

I think that being a third base coach for an experienced quality MLB manager on a World Series winning team probably gives someone more experience than you.

While I agree that we do not have a manager who has managed before, these are not two men who don't know what's going on in an MLB clubhouse/dugout.