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View Full Version : *Official* Bash Scott Schoenweis thread


MRKARNO
03-17-2004, 04:42 PM
Schoenweis as the 4th starter is a complete and utter joke. I cant wait Rauch or Grilli to replace him.

Bash away!

Randar68
03-17-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Schoenweis as the 4th starter is a complete and utter joke. I cant wait Rauch or Grilli to replace him.

Bash away!

Or Washburn.

Baby Fisk
03-17-2004, 04:45 PM
I'm only upset by this thread because everytime I want to launch an Official Bash Konerko thread, he has a decent day. That's "decent", not "great", so I'm keeping a close eye...

Schoenweis? *long sigh*

yadosoxfan
03-17-2004, 04:53 PM
I can't see ozzie letting scho keep the 4th spot with all the other people we have to stick in the rotation...i give him til may 15th before he's back in the pen

hopefully we aren't out of it by then...

Randar68
03-17-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by yadosoxfan
I can't see ozzie letting scho keep the 4th spot with all the other people we have to stick in the rotation...i give him til may 15th before he's back in the pen

hopefully we aren't out of it by then...

Good Lord, May 15th????

If he is still one of the 5 starters on April 15th we're doomed!

JRIG
03-17-2004, 05:04 PM
Don't say you weren't warned about Schoenweis' complete sucktitude.

voodoochile
03-17-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Don't say you weren't warned about Schoenweis' complete sucktitude.

I don't think anyone was jumping up and down about Scott in the rotation. At least no one I can recall...

Tekijawa
03-17-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I don't think anyone was jumping up and down about Scott in the rotation. At least no one I can recall...

Kansas City, Minneapolis/St Paul, Detroit, and Cleveland all were jumping up and down!

poorme
03-17-2004, 05:18 PM
i didn't realize (or forgot) that we gave the Angels two minor league pitchers in addition to Glover. Apparently one of them has looked great this spring.

wsgdf
03-17-2004, 05:25 PM
Scott Dunn and Tim Bittner. Dunn we got from the Reds for Jimenez.

This Spring:

Dunn - 4.1 IP 6 H 7 K 0 BB 4.50 ERA
Bittner - 6 IP 10 H 2 K 7 BB 7.50 ERA

Dunn's the better prospect of the two, but even he is a little old for a minor league relief pitcher. If they turn him back into a starter, might be decent - but would never crack their staff.

CubKilla
03-17-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by poorme
i didn't realize (or forgot) that we gave the Angels two minor league pitchers in addition to Glover. Apparently one of them has looked great this spring.

:KW

I refuse to do trades any other way! It's like my own personal sig!

CWSGuy406
03-17-2004, 05:27 PM
Hell at least Glover could get guys out occasionally. Schoenweis totally sucks.

What is even more baffling, two things actually, is that a.) Ozzie is considering moving him up to NUMBER 3?!?!?!?!!??! and b.) Kenny Williams gave him a contract extension for over one million dollars, and he didn't even do anything to deserve it!

Man, I know it's only Spring Training but please, please, please don't ever trot this guy out to the bump to start.

Win1ForMe
03-17-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Good Lord, May 15th????

If he is still one of the 5 starters on April 15th we're doomed!

Totally agree with this. I'd hate to pee away another season in April.

Soxfest
03-17-2004, 07:38 PM
Do not only blame SS blame KW for not knowing SS era is 1.50 better as a reliever than a starter. :angry:

Lip Man 1
03-17-2004, 09:30 PM
Rauch or Grilli?

Yeah that'll get it done.

Lip

MRKARNO
03-17-2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rauch or Grilli?

Yeah that'll get it done.

Lip

Both of those two have something called upside. Schoenweis's upside seems to be a slightly better than .500 pitcher with a 4.00 ERA.

SoxBoy14
03-17-2004, 09:36 PM
If the Sox make the play-offs: "I knew Scheonweis was going to be great I just knew it"

If they don't make the play-offs: "Damn it Scheonweis if you would've won more games than you lost we would be up there against the Yankees!"

crector
03-18-2004, 02:13 AM
Have to remember here that Don Cooper thinks that Schoeneweiss is a potentially good starter.

This means either:

A): Cooper is greatly overrated as Sox pitching coach.

or

B): Cooper knows something that we don't.

I prefer to go with B.

gosox3072
03-18-2004, 02:47 AM
Give Scott a break right now. So far this year he has exclusivly used his changeup and his cutter. These are two pitches that he didnt have last year so all he is doing is working out the kinks in those pitches. When the season comes around he will be using his sinker and slider and hitters wont be able to sit on a pitch. Dont take too much stock into his numbers this spring.

akingamongstmen
03-18-2004, 03:40 AM
Schoenweis is terrible. What more can be said that hasn't already been said?

Good God, our pitching is a disaster waiting to happen. What if ELo reverts to his previous form? What if MB continuous his disturbing downward trend? What if Jon Garland remains below average? What if Koch continues to suck? What if Mr. Zero becomes Mr. 10+ ERA? What if "El Diablo" Marte's left arm falls off from overuse??? I get the feeling that we're in for a slew of 10-9 games this season. :(:

mealfred13
03-18-2004, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by gosox3072
Give Scott a break right now. So far this year he has exclusivly used his changeup and his cutter. These are two pitches that he didnt have last year so all he is doing is working out the kinks in those pitches. When the season comes around he will be using his sinker and slider and hitters wont be able to sit on a pitch. Dont take too much stock into his numbers this spring.

There's an article on whitesox.com to that effect. They said he even went so far as to throw 3 changeups in a row. What do you expect to happen when you do that....."Hmmm 2 changeups in a row.....I think I'll sit back on the next pitch and see what happens." ---DUHHHHHH---- I'll wait until his next outing to join in on the bashing. He said he'll use all his pitches next time out.

ma_deuce
03-18-2004, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by gosox3072
Give Scott a break right now.

I agree. Give him a very looooooong break.


Deuce

anewman35
03-18-2004, 08:06 AM
From Chicagosports.com (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040317soxbits,1,4526892.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) :



The White Sox left-hander was roughed up for four runs on six hits in four innings against the Oakland A's Wednesday. But he was working with a huge handicap: He wasn't allowing himself to use his two best pitches, the ones that got him to the major leagues.

Schoenweis put away his slider and sinker, his two main pitches, to go almost exclusively with changeups and cut fastballs, the two pitches he hopes will take him to a new level.

gosox41
03-18-2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Schoenweis as the 4th starter is a complete and utter joke. I cant wait Rauch or Grilli to replace him.

Bash away!

I've been saying this all offseason, and I will reiterate it now...Scott Schoeneweis should not be in the starting rotation. He fits in as a reliever but that's it.

Bob

voodoochile
03-18-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by akingamongstmen
Schoenweis is terrible. What more can be said that hasn't already been said?

Good God, our pitching is a disaster waiting to happen. What if ELo reverts to his previous form? What if MB continuous his disturbing downward trend? What if Jon Garland remains below average? What if Koch continues to suck? What if Mr. Zero becomes Mr. 10+ ERA? What if "El Diablo" Marte's left arm falls off from overuse??? I get the feeling that we're in for a slew of 10-9 games this season. :(:

I thought I'd offer another possibility...

What if the exact opposite happens.

What if Olivo, Uribe, Crede, Konerko and Harris/Rowand all put up great numbers?

Not saying I think it is likely to happen, but if our whole starting rotation falls apart, we are going to suck. Of course, that is true of any team...

fledgedrallycap
03-18-2004, 09:51 AM
Has anyone seen this article in today's Cubune:

"The White Sox left-hander was roughed up for four runs on six hits in four innings against the Oakland A's Wednesday. But he was working with a huge handicap: He wasn't allowing himself to use his two best pitches, the ones that got him to the major leagues.

Schoenweis put away his slider and sinker, his two main pitches, to go almost exclusively with changeups and cut fastballs, the two pitches he hopes will take him to a new level."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040317soxbits,1,4526892.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

It's starting to sound like an old record, let's hope it's the truth.

Lip Man 1
03-18-2004, 10:58 AM
Mr. Karno refers to 'upside' with both Rauch and Grilli.

Let's see, Rauch has had two serious arm injuries, has been a 'prospect' since 2000 and still has yet to show squat in MLB...

Grilli is coming off Tommy John surgery, never a good thing...

I'll agree with you that for the White Sox , a team that refuses to pay what's needed for the most important componant in baseball, pitching...because of the obstinance of the owner, that does constitute an 'upside.'

But for 75% of every other team in baseball those two constitute mediocrity.

Lip

Randar68
03-18-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mr. Karno refers to 'upside' with both Rauch and Grilli.

Let's see, Rauch has had two serious arm injuries, has been a 'prospect' since 2000 and still has yet to show squat in MLB...

Grilli is coming off Tommy John surgery, never a good thing...

I'll agree with you that for the White Sox , a team that refuses to pay what's needed for the most important componant in baseball, pitching...because of the obstinance of the owner, that does constitute an 'upside.'

But for 75% of every other team in baseball those two constitute mediocrity.

Lip

Rauch and Grilli still have more potential, despite previous injuries (each more than 2 years ago :gulp: ), than Scott Schoenweis does.

Is this even debateable??? I know, I know, just needed to find a way to work a bitch about the owner into your post about pitching, what's new???

:chickenlittle

MRKARNO
03-18-2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mr. Karno refers to 'upside' with both Rauch and Grilli.

Let's see, Rauch has had two serious arm injuries, has been a 'prospect' since 2000 and still has yet to show squat in MLB...

Grilli is coming off Tommy John surgery, never a good thing...

I'll agree with you that for the White Sox , a team that refuses to pay what's needed for the most important componant in baseball, pitching...because of the obstinance of the owner, that does constitute an 'upside.'

But for 75% of every other team in baseball those two constitute mediocrity.

Lip

I'm just going to start by saying that we're going to agree to disagree.

But if you look around the MLB, a lot of pitchers have had success after coming back from Tommy John surgery, such as Kerry Wood. There are others, I just cant think of them off the top of my head. I dont think this is a huge concern for Grilli and I think he could be decent as a 4th starter over Schoenweis.

And I know for Rauch the issue is IF he's healthy and that's a big IF. But he deserves a chance now that he's healthy once again. He has really good control and he doesn't rely on speed, so if he can regain the control, which I believe he has, then Rauch could be a great 4th or 5th starter for this team. Do I see him as a front of the rotation starter in the near term? No, but I do think he could provide consistancy at the back of our rotation, something I believe that Schoenweis will be unable to do. Rauch has proven that he more deserves the 4th spot that Scott Schoenweis so it's time we let him have the 4th or 5th spot and see what the hell he can do. This team is going nowhere with Schoenweis as it's fourth starter except maybe 1 playoff win at the very most. If Rauch lives up to be half the starter he had the potential to be, he will be better than the best starter that Schoenweis could be.

Rauch was delayed by injury problems only. Now that he's overcome those problems, it's time he get his shot at the White Sox rotation over some crappy 30 year old whose career year is last year as a reliever posting an ERA above 4. Rauch at least has the potential to be a good if not great starter. I understand that you're tired of waiting for Rauch and that you have given up on him, but I think you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as giving the job to the most capable man whose proven that they belong. That man is Jon Rauch.

Rex Hudler
03-18-2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by crector
Have to remember here that Don Cooper thinks that Schoeneweiss is a potentially good starter.

This means either:

A): Cooper is greatly overrated as Sox pitching coach.

or

B): Cooper knows something that we don't.

I prefer to go with B.

Let's add a C):

Or Cooper is spouting off the "company line" and trying to be positive because he knows the boss is behind Schoenweis. It is not uncommon for coaches, management or players to say one thing publicly and still have doubts privately.

Not sure which is the correct answer, but choice C is a viable option.

RichFitztightly
03-18-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Let's add a C):

Or Cooper is spouting off the "company line" and trying to be positive because he knows the boss is behind Schoenweis. It is not uncommon for coaches, management or players to say one thing publicly and still have doubts privately.

Not sure which is the correct answer, but choice C is a viable option.

Eh, I don't know. Cooper doesn't seem prone to blindly follow the company line. He was pretty down on Koch and to a lesser extent Garland last year from what I read in the papers.

As far as Schoenweis goes, I was pretty down on the idea of him being handed the number 4 spot, but after watching him in Spring Training, I thought I'd give him a bit of a chance. When I saw him in an intrasquad game he looked unhittable in the first inning. His fastball had life and a bit of late movement up and away to right handed hitters and his breaking pitch was good. However, I don't think he threw his cutter the first inning. The second and third inning he looked less impressive. His cutter looked pretty bad. The best I can describe it is that his release point made it look like he was throwing at a left-handed batter's head, but then he'd snap his wrist and push the ball across the plate from left to right(as his vantage point would show). It looked like he was incapable of putting spin on the ball which could be the result of a high/early release point. When I saw him it was early in Spring Training, so I don't know what, if any, improvments have been made. I still say give him a chance though.

hftrex
03-18-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I'm just going to start by saying that we're going to agree to disagree.

But if you look around the MLB, a lot of pitchers have had success after coming back from Tommy John surgery, such as Kerry Wood. There are others, I just cant think of them off the top of my head. I dont think this is a huge concern for Grilli and I think he could be decent as a 4th starter over Schoenweis.

And I know for Rauch the issue is IF he's healthy and that's a big IF. But he deserves a chance now that he's healthy once again. He has really good control and he doesn't rely on speed, so if he can regain the control, which I believe he has, then Rauch could be a great 4th or 5th starter for this team. Do I see him as a front of the rotation starter in the near term? No, but I do think he could provide consistancy at the back of our rotation, something I believe that Schoenweis will be unable to do. Rauch has proven that he more deserves the 4th spot that Scott Schoenweis so it's time we let him have the 4th or 5th spot and see what the hell he can do. This team is going nowhere with Schoenweis as it's fourth starter except maybe 1 playoff win at the very most. If Rauch lives up to be half the starter he had the potential to be, he will be better than the best starter that Schoenweis could be.

Rauch was delayed by injury problems only. Now that he's overcome those problems, it's time he get his shot at the White Sox rotation over some crappy 30 year old whose career year is last year as a reliever posting an ERA above 4. Rauch at least has the potential to be a good if not great starter. I understand that you're tired of waiting for Rauch and that you have given up on him, but I think you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as giving the job to the most capable man whose proven that they belong. That man is Jon Rauch.


There are some who believe that Rauch should have been a starter coming out of ST last year, but KW would not let this happen because of his personal spite towards Rauch.

gosox41
03-19-2004, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by hftrex
There are some who believe that Rauch should have been a starter coming out of ST last year, but KW would not let this happen because of his personal spite towards Rauch.

Now that's the KW I know. I don't doubt KW doing that at all. He's been known to bad mouth his own players in trade discussions. Why not this?

If KW is going to carry a grudge, then I suggest he trade Rauch.

Bob

Baby Fisk
03-23-2004, 04:23 PM
This thread has a long future ahead of it... :angry:

joecrede
03-23-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
There are some who believe that Rauch should have been a starter coming out of ST last year, but KW would not let this happen because of his personal spite towards Rauch.

Why does KW spite Rauch? Honestly, I wouldn't want Rauch or Cotts first start(s) of the season to be against the Yankees if I could possibly help it. They've had good springs, why take the chance of reversing their confidence 10 games into the season?

fledgedrallycap
03-23-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Why does KW spite Rauch? Honestly, I wouldn't want Rauch or Cotts first start(s) of the season to be against the Yankees if I could possibly help it. They've had good springs, why take the chance of reversing their confidence 10 games into the season?

I can't understand the whole damn thing. No open competition is ridiculous! Is Dick Jauron running Sox camp?

sas1974
03-23-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
This thread has a long future ahead of it... :angry:

Hopefully not too long... :D:

SoxxoS
03-24-2004, 12:48 PM
Don't worry guys.

More excuses.

from the Cub-Times-

NAIL BITER: Scott Schoeneweis finally added his sinker and slider to his new cut fastball and changeup, and allowed four runs on eight hits in five innings to the Arizona Diamondbacks. One problem was a torn middle fingernail on his left hand that still was oozing blood an hour after his outing. Schoeneweis said the injury happened in the third inning, but he continued to pitch. He gave up two runs in the third and two more in the fourth.


Rookie to Show: What's that crap on your nail?

Show: Blood. Gives you an extra 2-3 inches break on your curveball. But if the umps are watching me close I get a little jalepeno in my nose, get it running, and whenever I need it, just wipe my nose...

sas1974
03-24-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Don't worry guys.

More excuses.


Every outting it's something different. What's next?


"I was working on trying to pitch blindfolded."
"I was trying to see if I could pitch while standing on 2nd base."
"I wasn't breathing through my eye lids like Crash taught me."


Hopefully next time out, he will put it all together, so we can see what he's made of. I sincerely like the fact that he has a plan and has things he's been working on. I am just VERY curious to see if he can pull this off.

SoxxoS
03-24-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
Every outting it's something different. What's next?


"I was working on trying to pitch blindfolded."
"I was trying to see if I could pitch while standing on 2nd base."
"I wasn't breathing through my eye lids like Crash taught me."


Hopefully next time out, he will put it all together, so we can see what he's made of. I sincerely like the fact that he has a plan and has things he's been working on. I am just VERY curious to see if he can pull this off.

Bullets...nice touch. I didn't even know that was possible.

sas1974
03-24-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Bullets...nice touch. I didn't even know that was possible.


It's
the
"List"
vB
function.

Kuzman
03-24-2004, 01:34 PM
im gonna laugh so hard if he turns out like a loazia, and all of you will be like... i knew he was gonna do great this season.. :smile:

Randar68
03-24-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Kuzman
im gonna laugh so hard if he turns out like a loazia, and all of you will be like... i knew he was gonna do great this season.. :smile:

And you'll be silent as a mouse when he doesn't. Pretty humorous how that works.

sas1974
03-24-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Kuzman
im gonna laugh so hard if he turns out like a loazia, and all of you will be like... i knew he was gonna do great this season.. :smile:

I will be the first to admit I was wrong IF he has a good year(not sure what the definition of that would be). I hope I am wrong...believe me.

Kuzman
03-24-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And you'll be silent as a mouse when he doesn't. Pretty humorous how that works.

i wont be silent at all, i havent said a word praising or bashing him, i just find it funny how everyone is bashin the hell out of him in spring training.. that is all.

sas1974
03-24-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Kuzman
i wont be silent at all, i havent said a word praising or bashing him, i just find it funny how everyone is bashin the hell out of him in spring training.. that is all.

My negative view on Scho has more to due w/ his history as a starter and my bitterness over the fact that we didn't go out an get a quality FA arm.

Randar68
03-24-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
My negative view on Scho has more to due w/ his history as a starter and my bitterness over the fact that we didn't go out an get a quality FA arm.

Ditto about the history part of it. The guy's had YEARS to prove himself and at the same time, STILL hasn't shown the propensity to get RH'ers out...

kittle42
03-24-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ditto about the history part of it. The guy's had YEARS to prove himself and at the same time, STILL hasn't shown the propensity to get RH'ers out...

Exactly - it's not like he's a rookie or anything - this guy has sucked for years.