PDA

View Full Version : Cubune on Junior


E Coast Sox Fan
03-15-2004, 10:12 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040314rogers,1,237092.column?coll=cs-home-headlines


Sox should take a gamble on Griffey...It's difficult to say. I think this would be a good signal to the fans that the Sox are serious about winning the division. Also, our already intimidating line-up would look absolutely devastating to opposing pitchers with Griffey (assuming he's healthy) batting in the 3-4-5-6 area. Wow!

:sopranos

Frater Perdurabo
03-15-2004, 10:17 AM
Would the Reds take, say, GIDPaul Konerko in exchange. On second thought, maybe this needs to be in deeppink ?

jabrch
03-15-2004, 10:29 AM
GIDPK and LTP?

soxfan26
03-15-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by E Coast Sox Fan
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-040314rogers,1,237092.column?coll=cs-home-headlines


Sox should take a gamble on Griffey...It's difficult to say. I think this would be a good signal to the fans that the Sox are serious about winning the division. Also, our already intimidating line-up would look absolutely devastating to opposing pitchers with Griffey (assuming he's healthy) batting in the 3-4-5-6 area. Wow!

:sopranos

Signing Griffey is not going to put this team over the top. There is no reason to believe he is or will be healthy.

The Sox don't need Griffey's ridiculous contract around for the next 8 years.

kittle42
03-15-2004, 10:51 AM
I agree that signing Griffey is not the answer. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think that, given health and contractual concerns, I'd rather have Rowand.

sas1974
03-15-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
GIDPK and LTP?

Cinci wants/needs lots o' pitching.

CWSGuy406
03-15-2004, 11:22 AM
If I were Kenny I'd actually aim at making a run at Jose Vidro; he's a consistent 300 hitter year after year, and would fill our hole at 2B.

Now, could someone fill me in on how Vidro is defensively/on the base paths? I didn't get to watch a lot of Expos games on Extra Innings last year, so I was wondering from someone who's seen him how he plays on defense and on the bases.

Over By There
03-15-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by sas1974
Cinci wants/needs lots o' pitching.

This, IMHO, is the problem. We shouldn't be trading pitching for hitting. We should be trading hitting for pitching at this point. Nice to dream about a potential HOF'er playing for your team, but this doesn't make sense to me unless the Reds let him go for next to nothing or take some redundant hitters (Konerko) off our hands.

jabrch
03-15-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Over By There
This, IMHO, is the problem. We shouldn't be trading pitching for hitting. We should be trading hitting for pitching at this point. Nice to dream about a potential HOF'er playing for your team, but this doesn't make sense to me unless the Reds let him go for next to nothing or take some redundant hitters (Konerko) off our hands.

Is REDUNDANT a euphamism for TERRIBLE?

sas1974
03-15-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Is REDUNDANT a euphamism for TERRIBLE?

That's funny! :D:

I agree though. I would rather send PK over there, but my point was that I don't think they'd want him. Or at least not just him. They will want some of our young pitchers in return.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 12:36 PM
I remember my friend in Cincinatti telling me early in the offseason that the Reds had contacted the White Sox about Griffey....

I would love to see Griffey's left-handed bat in our lineup. Sure he makes 12.5 million per season, but every year 6.5 million of that is deferred. We can definately fit that into our budget, especially if they'd be willing to take Paulie's contract.

A package of Konerko and a pitching prospect (probably Rauch or Cotts) should do it.

Just think of the implications this would have on our starting lineup. Suddenly we're not so right-handed dominant.

Harris RH
Valentin LH
Thomas RH
Ordonez RH
Griffey LH
Lee RH
Gload LH
Crede RH
Olivo RH

All of a sudden, our everyday lineup looks real balanced. I'm all for this.

maurice
03-15-2004, 12:45 PM
I want no part of Griffey or his contract. I'm sure the Sox agree, as they are positioning themselves for a salary dump in the near future.

BTW, Harris bats lefty.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
All of a sudden, our everyday lineup looks real balanced. I'm all for this.

Griffey's played a combined 123 games over the past two years and hasn't been healthy enough to play a full season in 5 years. Why would anyone want a part of that, even if he is half price?

Mickster
03-15-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
Griffey's played a combined 123 games over the past two years and hasn't been healthy enough to play a full season in 5 years. Why would anyone want a part of that, even if he is half price?

I have no opinion one way or the other on jr. His injuries, though, can easily be categorized as "fluke" and not recurring. It's not like he as bum knees that keep him out of the lineup season after season. The injury factor is being slightly blown out of proportion here.

I would love to seer him in a sox uni but:

1. JR would never pay...
2. We don't need OF

duke of dorwood
03-15-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Over By There
This, IMHO, is the problem. We shouldn't be trading pitching for hitting. We should be trading hitting for pitching at this point. Nice to dream about a potential HOF'er playing for your team, but this doesn't make sense to me unless the Reds let him go for next to nothing or take some redundant hitters (Konerko) off our hands.

Did you look at our hitting stats last year? Except for useless HR, we were really mediocre. Aint you heard that more runs help pitchers too?

sas1974
03-15-2004, 01:16 PM
I don't know if this is still the case, but I recall that Junior was not a big fan of hitting the gym or conditioning. He was such a gifted and natural baseball player that he never worried about that stuff. It is my feeling that this, more than anything, led to all of those injuries. I am guessing that after these injuries started to occur that his attitude would have changed.

RichFitztightly
03-15-2004, 01:18 PM
The way I'd like to see this go down is if we get Junior for Konerko and Rauch and Cincy picks up all of Junior's deferred money. I'm certain this won't happen, but I'd be happy with that senario.

sas1974
03-15-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
The way I'd like to see this go down is if we get Junior for Konerko and Rauch and Cincy picks up all of Junior's deferred money. I'm certain this won't happen, but I'd be happy with that senario.

That would be ideal. I don't want to have this guy on our books until 2025 if he blows a hammy and decides to call it quits.

Over By There
03-15-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Did you look at our hitting stats last year? Except for useless HR, we were really mediocre. Aint you heard that more runs help pitchers too?

No, I hadn't realized we didn't live up to potential last year on offense.

Let's say for the sake of argument you could add a big-time hitter or a big-time starting pitcher to the lineup today. Which would you choose? I have a hard time believing anyone would say pitching is our comparative strength at this point.

Brian26
03-15-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by E Coast Sox Fan
Also, our already intimidating line-up would look absolutely devastating to opposing pitchers with Griffey (assuming he's healthy) batting in the 3-4-5-6 area. Wow!


This kinda of comment has backfired so many times in baseball. This reminds me a lot of the signing of Albert Belle in the '96 postseason. Dreaming of Ventura, Thomas, Belle, and Baines as a 2-3-4-5 sounded awesome at the time, but it just sort of fizzled.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Over By There
No, I hadn't realized we didn't live up to potential last year on offense.

Let's say for the sake of argument you could add a big-time hitter or a big-time starting pitcher to the lineup today. Which would you choose? I have a hard time believing anyone would say pitching is our comparative strength at this point.

Our offense was markedly better after we gained balance from Everett and Alomar. Having Griffey would once again create that balance, putting the pressure on the opposing pitcher because he has to constantly adjust instead of following the same game plan against every hitter.

Know why no name pitchers always seem to dominate our lineup? It's because we never have balance, and we make it way to easy on them. I say we go for it and make it more difficult for the opposing pitchers.

-Munchie

sas1974
03-15-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
This kinda of comment has backfired so many times in baseball. This reminds me a lot of the signing of Albert Belle in the '96 postseason. Dreaming of Ventura, Thomas, Belle, and Baines as a 2-3-4-5 sounded awesome at the time, but it just sort of fizzled.

I am not saying Junior is the answer, but you really can't think like this either. That's like saying, "Well, we paid Jaime Navarro all that money and signed him long-term, then he bombed. We're not going to sign another pitcher long-term again." You really have to evaluate this stuff on a case by case basis.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
I have no opinion one way or the other on jr. His injuries, though, can easily be categorized as "fluke" and not recurring. It's not like he as bum knees that keep him out of the lineup season after season. The injury factor is being slightly blown out of proportion here.

Blown out of proportion? Griffey has four straight years of "fluke" injuries? I couldn't disagree more.

Griffey has a history of poor conditioning (he never did stretching exercises in Seattle) and now he's paying for it. Not surprisingly, the majority of his injuries in Cincy were in the legs (hamstring, knee, etc.).

Junior's career is over. He neglected to take care of his body earlier and it can't take the punishment anymore.

sas1974
03-15-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
Blown out of proportion? Griffey has four straight years of "fluke" injuries? I couldn't disagree more.

Griffey has a history of poor conditioning (he never did stretching exercises in Seattle) and now he's paying for it. Not surprisingly, the majority of his injuries in Cincy were in the legs (hamstring, knee, etc.).

Junior's career is over. He body simply can't handle the strain anymore.

I agree that conditioning is Junior's problem. But, if he decides to dedicate himself(as I have been hearing that he has), he can be productive again. Lesser people have done it.

Baby Fisk
03-15-2004, 02:15 PM
We need pitching, not another cash mule for JR to point at when Griffey turns in to a bust. Let Tampa have him.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
I agree that conditioning is Junior's problem. But, if he decides to dedicate himself(as I have been hearing that he has), he can be productive again. Lesser people have done it.

Well, for his sake, let's hope it's not too late. Even if he bounces back this year, I still don't want him. We need pitching, not over-priced power-hitting outfielders.

FWIW, Randy Moss is another one of those dolts who thinks that stretching is for old men. Not surprsingly, he's been having sporadic back problems for the past couple years.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
Blown out of proportion? Griffey has four straight years of "fluke" injuries? I couldn't disagree more.

Griffey has a history of poor conditioning (he never did stretching exercises in Seattle) and now he's paying for it. Not surprisingly, the majority of his injuries in Cincy were in the legs (hamstring, knee, etc.).

Junior's career is over. He neglected to take care of his body earlier and it can't take the punishment anymore.

ACTUALLY, Griffey did have poor conditioning habits. Before the 2002 season. But the last two seasons he followed a very strict everyday workout regiment during the offseason. That's why his injuries are considered a "fluke" thing. He's actually been in the best shape of his career.

owensmouth
03-15-2004, 02:32 PM
Wasn't it Griffey that Magglio worked out with a couple of years ago. Thought I read where Maggs and Junior spent a month or two with a training instructor in Miama.

Randar68
03-15-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by owensmouth
Wasn't it Griffey that Magglio worked out with a couple of years ago. Thought I read where Maggs and Junior spent a month or two with a training instructor in Miama.

IIRC it was ARod.

sas1974
03-15-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
Well, for his sake, let's hope it's not too late. Even if he bounces back this year, I still don't want him. We need pitching, not over-priced power-hitting outfielders.

FWIW, Randy Moss is another one of those dolts who thinks that stretching is for old men. Not surprsingly, he's been having sporadic back problems for the past couple years.

I agree that pitching should be our #1 priority, but I can't say that I wouldn't want Junior in White Sox pinstripes. IF he could stay healthy, he would put some arses in the seats, which would bring in the $$ to go get some arms. This is in theory mind you...There is no guarantee the extra cash would go towards better pitching and not JRs wallet.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
ACTUALLY, Griffey did have poor conditioning habits. Before the 2002 season. But the last two seasons he followed a very strict everyday workout regiment during the offseason. That's why his injuries are considered a "fluke" thing. He's actually been in the best shape of his career.

If his injuries are occuring because he didn't stretch and work out throught the vast majority of his career, it's difficult to call his injuries "fluke." Their cause is pretty obvious. But I'm not going to debate semantics.

Griffey is a candy ass who hasn't played a full season in five years and a fool for not taking care of his body. I don't want him on my team. He doesn't draw crowds in Cincy and he won't do it in Chicago either.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
If his injuries are occuring because he didn't stretch and work out throught the vast majority of his career, it's difficult to call his injuries "fluke." Their cause is pretty obvious. But I'm not going to debate semantics.


My point was he did do those things the last two years, and got injuried in very freakish ways.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
My point was he did do those things the last two years, and got injuried in very freakish ways.

I see. And my point was that those injuries are the direct result of his lack of conditioning over his career.

sas1974
03-15-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
I see. And my point was that those injuries are the direct result of his lack of conditioning over his career.

I would have to agree that a lot of injuries are not flukes. Tripping over the rosin bag and twisting your ankle....That's a fluke. Pulling a hammy bc you are dehydrated or didn't warm up enough? That's not a fluke.

With that being said, that all out dive he did to separate his shoulder would have messed up a lot of people.

Kittle
03-15-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
With that being said, that all out dive he did to separate his shoulder would have messed up a lot of people.

Agreed. I was shocked that it wasn't a leg injury that put him on the DL last season.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
With that being said, that all out dive he did to separate his shoulder would have messed up a lot of people.

And the awkward slide into third that toar a ligament in his ankle was also a fluke. Had nothing to do with conditioning. Considering it so is like saying when Ventura broke his leg sliding home was because he didn't work out. That's ludacris.

BeerHandle
03-15-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
I agree that signing Griffey is not the answer. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think that, given health and contractual concerns, I'd rather have Rowand.

Griffey has been constantly injured. Take a look at Rowands stats. Ever since he changed his batting stance (second half of the season last year) he has been stroking the ball.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-15-2004, 04:13 PM
If the sox want to show the fans that they're serious about winning, then sign magglio to a long term contract! I'd rather see Magglio in a uniform for the rest of his career than Griffey Jr! The thing that I think would happen if the Sox traded Konerko and some other guys for Griffey is that the reds would just trade konerko to the dodgers for pitching.

SoxBoy14
03-15-2004, 04:31 PM
The sox need to take some risks if they want to do well this season. Get griffy would be a major risk but it could result in a big payoff. We might be able to get Griffy for cheap now that people are worried about him getting injured.

Even with that said i just cannot see griffy in a sox jersey. I dont no if he would like chicago

benjamin
03-15-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
If the sox want to show the fans that they're serious about winning, then sign magglio to a long term contract! I'd rather see Magglio in a uniform for the rest of his career than Griffey Jr! The thing that I think would happen if the Sox traded Konerko and some other guys for Griffey is that the reds would just trade konerko to the dodgers for pitching.


Agree with the Magglio part.

As for the second half...

IF and i mean IF the Reds came to be in possession of Konerko, let them go right ahead and trade for the homerific Odalis Perez and the walkerific Kaz Ishii.

In all this talk about the Sox getting pitchers from the Dodgers, nobody realizes that the pitchers that the Dodgers are offering have only shown success because they have been pitching in the most pitcher friendly park in the game. If Ishii were with the Sox, his ERA would be in the double digits. 6 walks per 9 innings pitched, yikes! That stuff won't fly in US Cellular.

Deadguy
03-15-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
We need pitching, not another cash mule for JR to point at when Griffey turns in to a bust. Let Tampa have him.

We also have to score runs.

We were 8th in the league in runs scored last season, and 4th in the league in runs allowed. Our pitching and defense combination was playoff calibre. It was the offense that was holding us back, and we did nothing to improve it in the offseason.

munchman33
03-15-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
We also have to score runs.

We were 8th in the league in runs scored last season, and 4th in the league in runs allowed. Our pitching and defense combination was playoff calibre. It was the offense that was holding us back, and we did nothing to improve it in the offseason.

And if it wasn't for some near-deadline acquisitions, we would have been near the bottom in runs scored. We need a good, power hitting left-handed bat.

gogosoxgogo
03-15-2004, 06:02 PM
Rowand will be suitable in CF. If God forbid Rowand does not work out, we do have other options in the minors at least for CF, but I don't think that will be necessary. Our primary need at this point is second base. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am extremely frightened about Willie Harris being our starting second basemen and the fact that we have absolutely no depth at that position. I was fine with him up until spring training thinking that this would finally be his year to step up, but he has shown nothing. His speed and defense are a plus, but he will do little good for us if he can't get on base. I say that if you're going to trade PK and/or prospects, go after a second basemen, not a center fielder.

ScottyTheSoxFan
03-15-2004, 06:18 PM
i like the potential of griffey here, but only if


Cincinnati takes konerko and his salary
the reds pick up some of jr griffey's salary
griffey jr is checked out and 100% healthy
it only costs konerko and another pitcher (rauch, stewart, etc)

CWSGuy406
03-15-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
If the sox want to show the fans that they're serious about winning, then sign magglio to a long term contract! I'd rather see Magglio in a uniform for the rest of his career than Griffey Jr! The thing that I think would happen if the Sox traded Konerko and some other guys for Griffey is that the reds would just trade konerko to the dodgers for pitching.

A Plus side would be that Griffey would be chasing 500 Homers, and that in itself would put people in the seats. I do agree with you, though, that I'd rather see Mags resigned then Griffey JR here.

CWSGuy406
03-15-2004, 06:40 PM
Can you imagine the ripping day the Chicago media would have if we went after Griffey? Nothing positive would come from the media: the headline:

SOX TRADE FOR OVERPAYED WASHED-UP GRIFFEY
Other News: Maddux is god!

Champ Summers
03-15-2004, 06:48 PM
Willie Harris does not bat RH

munchman33
03-15-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I do agree with you, though, that I'd rather see Mags resigned then Griffey JR here.

Not at 5 years, $15 million per.

TaylorStSox
03-15-2004, 09:40 PM
First of all.... Why would the Reds want Konerko? They don't need him. Second... the Reds have 2 future stars that have produced way more than LTP.
Third.... Willie Harris is not right handed.
Fourth.... Gload in CF over Rowand? Personally, I'd rather have the better of the AAAA players. ie. Rowand

CWSGuy406
03-16-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
Not at 5 years, $15 million per.

No, but IMO he should get around 11-13 million per year. Consistent .300+/30+HR/100+RBI hitter, I'd like to see him here.

munchman33
03-16-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
First of all.... Why would the Reds want Konerko? They don't need him.

Because:

1. They desperately want to be rid of Griffey's contract, all if possible.

2. They desperately need more options at starting pitcher.

3. The fans have turned against Griffey.

Frater Perdurabo
03-16-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
Can you imagine the ripping day the Chicago media would have if we went after Griffey? Nothing positive would come from the media: the headline:

SOX TRADE FOR OVERPAYED WASHED-UP GRIFFEY
Other News: Maddux is god!

But if he were traded to the Cubs, the headline would be:

CUBS ADD ANOTHER HALL OF FAME BAT
Other news: Messiah Prior favored to win Cy Young Award

TaylorStSox
03-16-2004, 01:14 PM
I didn't realize Konerko was a starting pitcher. Seriously, the Reds have no use for a player like Konerko. They already have Casey. He's cheaper, the same age and just as/if not more productive.

benjamin
03-16-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406


No, but IMO he should get around 11-13 million per year. Consistent .300+/30+HR/100+RBI hitter, I'd like to see him here.


$11-13 per season? You're dreaming. He's due $14 mil this year.


I'd like to see him stick around, too, but be realistic about what it will take to keep him.

TaylorStSox
03-16-2004, 02:12 PM
Maggs salary will be reduced next year regardless of where he goes. When the original contract was signed his market value was 14 mil. Now his market value is lower based on comparable contracts. There's no way he makes more than Vlad. If you want to be realistic, Vlad is better at every facet of the game and is younger.

sas1974
03-16-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Maggs salary will be reduced next year regardless of where he goes. When the original contract was signed his market value was 14 mil. Now his market value is lower based on comparable contracts. There's no way he makes more than Vlad. If you want to be realistic, Vlad is better at every facet of the game and is younger.

Except durability...I would rather have Maggs than Vlad and his bad back. Back problems don't usually go away and Vlad is no good to anyone on the DL.

TaylorStSox
03-16-2004, 02:40 PM
This is true. However, Vlad has only missed 1/3 of a season once in his career. In that year, he still managed to hit .330/25/79. Couple that with his arm and range in RF and you have a substantially better player. Even with the injury concerns, he's worth more than Maggs. Don't get me wrong. I love Maggs and would like to see him enter the HOF in a Sox cap. However, as good and consistant as he is, he's not Vlad and doesn't deserve Vlad type money. He'll find out this when he "test the market" after this season.

sas1974
03-16-2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
This is true. However, Vlad has only missed 1/3 of a season once in his career. In that year, he still managed to hit .330/25/79. Couple that with his arm and range in RF and you have a substantially better player. Even with the injury concerns, he's worth more than Maggs. Don't get me wrong. I love Maggs and would like to see him enter the HOF in a Sox cap. However, as good and consistant as he is, he's not Vlad and doesn't deserve Vlad type money. He'll find out this when he "test the market" after this season.

I agree that he's not worth Vlad money and if he wants $15/5yrs then I am not sure I can blame the org for letting him walk away(for the record I don't think Vlad is worth Vlad money). Magg's numbers last year, while very good, were not great.