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maurice
03-11-2004, 12:05 PM
"Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks?" [Baker] said (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-040310cubsbits,1,7039088.story?coll=cs-home-headlines).

Guess which team lead the AL in OBP and walks the past two years combined.

depy48
03-11-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Guess which team lead the AL in OBP and walks the past two years combined.

i'm not a baker fan myself

Iwritecode
03-11-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Guess which team lead the AL in OBP and walks the past two years combined.

They don't talk about it, they just do it...

:shammy
What are these numbers you talk about? The only number that matters is homeruns!

Hangar18
03-11-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Guess which team lead the AL in OBP and walks the past two years combined.

Flim Flam Dusty, is really not that smart a fellow. I can tell he was just a dumb athlete growing up, and is now a Dumb Baseball "lifer" disguised as a manager. From his "history" lessons to ridiculous statements, this guy is plain embarrassing.
Im very glad he didnt end up a Sox manager, fitting hes up north

chisox56
03-11-2004, 01:28 PM
Actually they did talk about it last year when nick johnson had a terrible batting average but had a good on base percentage because of all of his walks.

SoxBoy14
03-11-2004, 04:06 PM
Im the new guy in town :gulp:

Anyhoo

i hate baker
He is a cub what more can i say
Plus he is just annoying with the toothpick in mouth thing

SoxFan76
03-11-2004, 04:48 PM
Sadly, every Cub fan will buy into that and seriously think the Yankees can't get on base.

Vsahajpal
03-11-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
Sadly, every Cub fan will buy into that and seriously think the Yankees can't get on base.

lol, yeah right

Rex Hudler
03-11-2004, 06:06 PM
Baker agreed that stats like on-base percentage can be overdone.

"Computers make it easier to come up with these numbers and make it possible to overanalyze," he said. "Before you had to do it by pencil, and then the calculator, and now the computer spits it out. Everybody can't hit like that. Are you going to tell Vladimir Guerrero to take more walks?"

Baker asked rhetorically who have been the world champions most often the last eight years.

"Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks?" he said. "Walks help, but you don't walk across the plate. You have to [run] across the plate. Getting a guy's pitch count up? Yeah, I agree with that but it depends on the hitter.

"Everybody can't hit with two strikes. Everybody can't walk. You're taking away some of the aggressiveness from a kid when you tell him to go up there and work for a walk."

Actually, if you read his WHOLE comment, it makes sense. There are some things that a computer cannot explain. Not everything a #3 or a #5 hitter would translate equally if that guy were placed in the leadoff spot, or the #8 spot for that matter.

Sometimes trying to understand the point someone is trying to make makes more sense than trying to pick apart every single word or sentence individually.

hftrex
03-11-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Actually, if you read his WHOLE comment, it makes sense. There are some things that a computer cannot explain. Not everything a #3 or a #5 hitter would translate equally if that guy were placed in the leadoff spot, or the #8 spot for that matter.

Sometimes trying to understand the point someone is trying to make makes more sense than trying to pick apart every single word or sentence individually.


Its still a stupid statement. Why are you twisting things to make Dusted Baking Soda look smarter than he really is? Are you his PR man?

HomeFish
03-11-2004, 06:11 PM
Well, I hope Mr. Baker learns his lesson when he sees 1932 replayed before his eyes.

hftrex
03-11-2004, 06:11 PM
Guys like Baker never learn.

maurice
03-11-2004, 06:16 PM
I didn't criticize (and don't disagree with) his point re. walks. I criticized his position that the Yankees don't care about OBP or walks, a completely separate proposition that clearly is untrue and does not support the rest of his claims.

Then again, Baker doesn't really care if his statements are untrue. He just likes the sound of his own voice, an infatuation shared by the Chicago media.

SergeantMahoney
03-11-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
Its still a stupid statement. Why are you twisting things to make Dusted Baking Soda look smarter than he really is? Are you his PR man?

"Dusted Baking Soda"? That's a pretty crazy nickname, dude.

Rex Hudler
03-11-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
Its still a stupid statement. Why are you twisting things to make Dusted Baking Soda look smarter than he really is? Are you his PR man?

Not at all...... I just happen to be objective enough to evaluate something regardless if a Cub or a Yankee or Peter Gammons says it. Dusty has said some really dumb things in the past, but I don't think is on par with them. His point is valid. It is easy to pick out one sentence out of a statement and take it out of context.

Going further back in the story, the comment was made because someone suggested Moises Alou should be the Cubs leadoff hitter because some statistical analysis said so.

General manager Jim Hendry laughed at a statistical-analysis book that used on-base percentage to suggest Moises Alou should be the leadoff hitter.

"Those things are written by guys who never have been in a dugout," Hendry said.

Baker agreed that stats like on-base percentage can be overdone.

hftrex
03-11-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Not at all...... I just happen to be objective enough to evaluate something regardless if a Cub or a Yankee or Peter Gammons says it. Dusty has said some really dumb things in the past, but I don't think is on par with them. His point is valid. It is easy to pick out one sentence out of a statement and take it out of context.

Going further back in the story, the comment was made because someone suggested Moises Alou should be the Cubs leadoff hitter because some statistical analysis said so.

It does make sense to have Alou as the Little Bears lead-off man, but idiot Hendry of the bloated Kerry Wood contract and who thought that a pitcher slayer like Baker would make a perfect fit with Mark Prior, says that OBP isn't important. What Baker said was stupid and his General Manager is equally stupid. That stupidity is backfiring on the Little Bears.

maurice
03-11-2004, 06:25 PM
The quote wasn't taken out of context. The point re. the Yankees is completely separate from the rest of his claims, does not support them, and is 100% wrong. If separating an independent claim from unrelated claims is "taking them out of context," every single quote ever made was "out of context," rendering that criticism meaningless.

hftrex
03-11-2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The quote wasn't taken out of context. The point re. the Yankees is completely separate from the rest of his claims, does not support them, and is 100% wrong. If separating an independent claim from unrelated claims is "taking them out of context," every single quote ever made was "out of context," rendering that criticism meaningless.


Hey PR guy Rex, what do you have to say to that?

jeremyb1
03-11-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Actually, if you read his WHOLE comment, it makes sense. There are some things that a computer cannot explain. Not everything a #3 or a #5 hitter would translate equally if that guy were placed in the leadoff spot, or the #8 spot for that matter.

Sometimes trying to understand the point someone is trying to make makes more sense than trying to pick apart every single word or sentence individually.

This is the same point being made in the BP thread. Why are statsitics useless if they're not 100% accurate. Last time I checked, scouts don't see the future either. I also don't think anyone are claiming that stats are a perfect indicator of the future. There are many things in the world that can not be explained 100%, that doesn't mean we shouldn't explain concepts to the best of our ability. IE, Baker claiming that walks are unimportant because he doesn't think the Yankes led the league in OBP last season is atrocious reasoning.

Vsahajpal
03-11-2004, 07:57 PM
He never said walks were useless, though.

In an interview with the Herald, he says OBP is one of the most important stats for your table setters, so I doubt he believes the stat is useless.

The stupidity in his statement lies in the fact that he mentions the Yankees, without any knowledge of their recent history.

Rex Hudler
03-11-2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
It does make sense to have Alou as the Little Bears lead-off man, but idiot Hendry of the bloated Kerry Wood contract and who thought that a pitcher slayer like Baker would make a perfect fit with Mark Prior, says that OBP isn't important. What Baker said was stupid and his General Manager is equally stupid. That stupidity is backfiring on the Little Bears.

Go ahead and make your argument for why Alou should be their leadoff hitter? How would that make them a better team?

I'm all ears to know why Baker arguing that point was wrong. Was his argument 100% flawless? No But was his point valid? I will believe so until you can tell me why Alou should be their leadoff hitter?

Rex Hudler
03-11-2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
This is the same point being made in the BP thread. Why are statsitics useless if they're not 100% accurate. Last time I checked, scouts don't see the future either. I also don't think anyone are claiming that stats are a perfect indicator of the future. There are many things in the world that can not be explained 100%, that doesn't mean we shouldn't explain concepts to the best of our ability. IE, Baker claiming that walks are unimportant because he doesn't think the Yankes led the league in OBP last season is atrocious reasoning.

No one said they were useless, nor did Baker say they were unimportant. Stats are and have always been a huge part of baseball. I think the point is, that regardless of what new statistical analysis and methods are developed, none of them are revolutionalizing the game to the point of making the game, as it has always been wrong or meaningless.

Stats can help you evaluate differently but the players still have to play and the nuances of the game are better than any other game out there, and much more complex. So to assume something like a player who hits out of the three or four hole and has a great OBP would automatically have the same OBP as a leadoff hitter is flawed. The players hitting in front of and behind a hitter as well who and how many people are on base make a difference in the aggressiveness of pitchers and the type of pitches that hitter will see.

If that were the case, why is Frank not leading off for the Sox?

The fact is stats are helpful, but they can never replace the human element. They can only enhance it.

SoxFan76
03-11-2004, 08:53 PM
I could never suport Baker

maurice
03-12-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
The stupidity in his statement lies in the fact that he mentions the Yankees, without any knowledge of their recent history.

Agreed.

DrCrawdad
03-12-2004, 10:24 PM
In a Cubbie discussion group, there is a thread about Baker's most recent idiotic statements. "Bubba" a Cubbie fan says this in defense of Baker:

Dusty takes the pressure off the players by directing the presses desire for sensationalism and conflict upon himself.

SoxBoy14
03-12-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
In a Cubbie discussion group, there is a thread about Baker's most recent idiotic statements. "Bubba" a Cubbie fan says this in defense of Baker:

What an idiot