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hold2dibber
03-10-2004, 01:51 PM
Look at the 162-game averages of two players, both of whom play the same position and have been in the league just about the same amount of time (6-7 years):

Player A: .262 avg., 24 HR, 85 RBI, .822 OPS
Player B: .279 avg., 26 HR, 95 RBI, .812 OPS

Very comparable players. Yet, Player B will make $16 million over the next two years. Player A will be lucky to make $2 million over the next two years



Player B is Paul Konerko; Player A is Brian Daubach. This comparison just goes to show: (1) that KW grossly overpaid PK (which we all know already); and (2) JM grossly under-used Daubach last year.

If PK gets off to a hot start this year and the Sox can deal him for starting pitching, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

sas1974
03-10-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
If PK gets off to a hot start this year and the Sox can deal him for starting pitching, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Great comparison! I was also disappointed to see Dauber go. I think he could have been a big help w/ some more ABs.

Just wondering...If they did deal PK, then what? Who's helping out at 1st/DH?

npdempse
03-10-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by sas1974

Just wondering...If they did deal PK, then what? Who's helping out at 1st/DH?

Gload.

sas1974
03-10-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
Gload.

Ya think he'll cut it as our only other option? I am no stathead, but it seems that he's not projected to have the kind of power numbers you'd want out of your everyday 1B/DH.

IlliniSox
03-10-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by sas1974


Ya think he'll cut it as our only other option? I am no stathead, but it seems that he's not projected to have the kind of power numbers you'd want out of your everyday 1B/DH.

I agree. With there being so many American League 16 inch softball teams, the DH spot is the last place to experiment. Konerko's offseason golf regimen keeps that uppercut in tune.

sas1974
03-10-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by IlliniSox
I agree. With there being so many American League 16 inch softball teams, the DH spot is the last place to experiment. Konerko's offseason golf regimen keeps that uppercut in tune.

FORE!!!!!!!!! :D:

mealfred13
03-10-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
Ya think he'll cut it as our only other option? I am no stathead, but it seems that he's not projected to have the kind of power numbers you'd want out of your everyday 1B/DH.

I wouldn't mind seeing the guy put up numbers like he has in triple A, even if he's not hitting 25 homeruns. I would love to see the sox hit no homeruns this year and just crank out single after single consistently. Homeruns don't win every game.

Frater Perdurabo
03-10-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Look at the 162-game averages of two players, both of whom play the same position and have been in the league just about the same amount of time (6-7 years):

Player A: .262 avg., 24 HR, 85 RBI, .822 OPS
Player B: .279 avg., 26 HR, 95 RBI, .812 OPS

Very comparable players. Yet, Player B will make $16 million over the next two years. Player A will be lucky to make $2 million over the next two years



Player B is Paul Konerko; Player A is Brian Daubach. This comparison just goes to show: (1) that KW grossly overpaid PK (which we all know already); and (2) JM grossly under-used Daubach last year.

If PK gets off to a hot start this year and the Sox can deal him for starting pitching, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I also liked the stat I saw elsewhere several months ago that Daubach's 2003 walk total, when projected out over a full season, would have projected to the second-most number of walks on the entire Sox roster, behind only Frank Thomas.

For a lineup that is so starved of OBP (outside of Frank), and is so dominated by right-handed hitters, to me it is inexplicable that Kenny held on to Konerko and let Daubach go. Perhaps he just couldn't find a taker for Konerko's contract, but I wish a deal could have happened, just to free up the payroll, keep Daubach and let Frank play 1B on a regular basis.

Frater Perdurabo
03-10-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I also liked the stat I saw elsewhere several months ago that Daubach's 2003 walk total, when projected out over a full season, would have projected to the second-most number of walks on the entire Sox roster, behind only Frank Thomas.

For a lineup that is so starved of OBP (outside of Frank), and is so dominated by right-handed hitters, to me it is inexplicable that Kenny held on to Konerko and let Daubach go. Perhaps he just couldn't find a taker for Konerko's contract, but I wish a deal could have happened, just to free up the payroll, keep Daubach and let Frank play 1B on a regular basis.

But I guess what is even more inexplicable is why Jerry stuck with Konerko throughout the season while he more or less allowed Daubach to rot on the bench and kept Frank at DH. At the very least Konerko should have ridden the pine after May, with Frank and Dauber platooning between 1B and DH. :angry:

JRIG
03-10-2004, 03:10 PM
Manuel grossly misused Daubach last season. Not giving him any kind of a shot with Konerko hitting .190 was just foolish. Heck, for most of the season, Daubach was third on the team in walks. He finsished with 34 compared with 183 at bats. Konerko had 43 walks with 444 at bats and Lee had 37 and 623 at bats.

daveeym
03-10-2004, 03:22 PM
:threadsucks


Konerko 28 years old
Daubach 32 years old.

Konerko's first 4 full seasons out of 5 full seasons. Season 1 - 6 games played season 2 - 75 games played. You take out last year's stats his BA jumps to .287

1999 CWS 142 513 71 151 31 4 24 81 45 68 1 0 .294 .352 .511 .863
2000 CWS 143 524 84 156 31 1 21 97 47 72 1 0 .298 .363 .481 .844
2001 CWS 156 582 92 164 35 0 32 99 54 89 1 0 .282 .349 .507 .856
2002 CWS 151 570 81 173 30 0 27 104 44 72 0 0 .304 .359 .498 .857

Daubach's best four full seasons. Also, HOW can he be averaging 24 HR's in his career considering his career high is 22??????

1999 Bos 110 381 61 112 33 3 21 73 36 92 0 1 .294 .360 .562 .922
2000 Bos 142 495 55 123 32 2 21 76 44 130 1 1 .248 .315 .448 .763
2001 Bos 122 407 54 107 28 3 22 71 53 108 1 0 .263 .350 .509 .859
2002 Bos 137 444 62 118 24 2 20 78 51 126 2 1 .266 .348 .464 .812


Daubach's carreer walks high is 54 walks. Now he more than likely would have had more walks than konerko but this isnt' the second coming of frank thomas here.


Konerko no doubt had a ****ty season and his contract sucks now with the direction baseball has gone in but these two are so not even comparable. Daubach is a freakin utility player who is limited to 2 positions.

RKMeibalane
03-10-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
:threadsucks


Konerko 28 years old
Daubach 32 years old.

Konerko's first 4 full seasons out of 5 full seasons. Season 1 - 6 games played season 2 - 75 games played. You take out last year's stats his BA jumps to .287

1999 CWS 142 513 71 151 31 4 24 81 45 68 1 0 .294 .352 .511 .863
2000 CWS 143 524 84 156 31 1 21 97 47 72 1 0 .298 .363 .481 .844
2001 CWS 156 582 92 164 35 0 32 99 54 89 1 0 .282 .349 .507 .856
2002 CWS 151 570 81 173 30 0 27 104 44 72 0 0 .304 .359 .498 .857

Daubach's best four full seasons. Also, HOW can he be averaging 24 HR's in his career considering his career high is 22??????

1999 Bos 110 381 61 112 33 3 21 73 36 92 0 1 .294 .360 .562 .922
2000 Bos 142 495 55 123 32 2 21 76 44 130 1 1 .248 .315 .448 .763
2001 Bos 122 407 54 107 28 3 22 71 53 108 1 0 .263 .350 .509 .859
2002 Bos 137 444 62 118 24 2 20 78 51 126 2 1 .266 .348 .464 .812


Daubach's carreer walks high is 54 walks. Now he more than likely would have had more walks than konerko but this isnt' the second coming of frank thomas here.


Konerko no doubt had a ****ty season and his contract sucks now with the direction baseball has gone in but these two are so not even comparable. Daubach is a freakin utility player who is limited to 2 positions.

The averages were based on playing a full 162-game season. That's why the numbers are different.

daveeym
03-10-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The averages were based on playing a full 162-game season. That's why the numbers are different.

Misleading is more like it.

hold2dibber
03-10-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Misleading is more like it.

How are they misleading? You appear to be totally missing the point. Before coming to the South Side, Daubach was getting at least 400 ABs/year - and he was producing at a rate that was virtually identical to Konerko's production. He didn't get as many ABs, but he got enough to show he wasn't a fluke and he got enough to show that he was on par with PK in terms of production. If you think otherwise, explain - because the numbers sure show that they played at just about the same level. Daubach is a little older and he was unheralded as a minor leaguer (and hence, likely, the reluctance to making him an everyday player and hence, likely, he is making about $7.5 million less than Konerko) but his production is almost exactly on par with PK's. Particularly in light of the Sox OBP and over-right-handedness problems issues heading into last year, Daubach should have been penciled in before the year started for at least 300 ABs. Then, when Konerko turned into the worst everyday first baseman in baseball last year (or at least in the bottom 3), Daubach should have been playing virtually every day.

pinwheels3530
03-10-2004, 04:10 PM
These are probably the same sox fans who wanted Jeff Liefer over Carlos Lee and Jose Canseco over Frank Thomas in 2001, wrong, wrong , wrong. Paulie is better than Daubauch!!!

daveeym
03-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
How are they misleading? You appear to be totally missing the point. Before coming to the South Side, Daubach was getting at least 400 ABs/year - and he was producing at a rate that was virtually identical to Konerko's production. He didn't get as many ABs, but he got enough to show he wasn't a fluke and he got enough to show that he was on par with PK in terms of production. If you think otherwise, explain - because the numbers sure show that they played at just about the same level. Daubach is a little older and he was unheralded as a minor leaguer (and hence, likely, the reluctance to making him an everyday player and hence, likely, he is making about $7.5 million less than Konerko) but his production is almost exactly on par with PK's. Particularly in light of the Sox OBP and over-right-handedness problems issues heading into last year, Daubach should have been penciled in before the year started for at least 300 ABs. Then, when Konerko turned into the worst everyday first baseman in baseball last year (or at least in the bottom 3), Daubach should have been playing virtually every day.

I'm not defending Paulie's year last year or even that daubach deserved more PT but get out of here calling them comparable, there's a reason Daubach hasn't played close to a full season and it's A he sucks and/or B he's injured too much.

should your virtually identical be in teal??? take out both of their 2003 seasons and paulie's stats are way better than daubach's.

batmanZoSo
03-10-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Look at the 162-game averages of two players, both of whom play the same position and have been in the league just about the same amount of time (6-7 years):

Player A: .262 avg., 24 HR, 85 RBI, .822 OPS
Player B: .279 avg., 26 HR, 95 RBI, .812 OPS

Very comparable players. Yet, Player B will make $16 million over the next two years. Player A will be lucky to make $2 million over the next two years



Player B is Paul Konerko; Player A is Brian Daubach. This comparison just goes to show: (1) that KW grossly overpaid PK (which we all know already); and (2) JM grossly under-used Daubach last year.

If PK gets off to a hot start this year and the Sox can deal him for starting pitching, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I saw the truth behind this matter last year. And in addition the hitting stats being strikingly similar, Daubach is also left handed and a better fielder. No use pining over it now that he's gone though, so I'll move on. I don't care what we get for Konerko, to me the best thing would be for somebody to pay his entire salary. If we find some schmuck to do it, we can pay Maggs whatever he wants, no question about it. I like Konerko as a man (as far as I know him) and he's a great competitor, and I have nothing against him for signing an 8 million a year deal. But he doesn't fit on this team and he hasn't justified even half that money in quite some time. That's on KW.

Let's say the mid 2002 Konerko was the real deal...Okay, tell me why we need TWO big slugging first basemen? That's not smart baseball. You have to diversify your strengths and abilities on a ballclub. I would have traded him then while his value was the highest it'll ever be and we were out of it by then anyway.

daveeym
03-10-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
I saw the truth behind this matter last year. And in addition the hitting stats being strikingly similar, Daubach is also left handed and a better fielder. No use pining over it now that he's gone though, so I'll move on. I don't care what we get for Konerko, to me the best thing would be for somebody to pay his entire salary. If we find some schmuck to do it, we can pay Maggs whatever he wants, no question about it. I like Konerko as a man (as far as I know him) and he's a great competitor, and I have nothing against him for signing an 8 million a year deal. But he doesn't fit on this team and he hasn't justified even half that money in quite some time. That's on KW.

Let's say the mid 2002 Konerko was the real deal...Okay, tell me why we need TWO big slugging first basemen? That's not smart baseball. You have to diversify your strengths and abilities on a ballclub. I would have traded him then while his value was the highest it'll ever be and we were out of it by then anyway.

How's he a better defensive player?
Konerko
CAREER BY POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Total as 1B 648 622 5465.2 5736 5315 388 33 535 .994 9.39 .826

Daubach
CAREER BY POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Total as 1B 359 322 2817.2 2849 2609 212 28 217 .990 9.01 .837

Pauly had one of the worst years imaginable and I'm not defending that. But the pauly hatred is out of control here.

JM/KW/FT are the reason behind it all. None of them could make up their frickin mind about where thomas was going to play. We've had so many years of this crap that i don't even know how it all started. I seem to remember frank not wanting to dh, JM wanting him to and then the next year both of them completely flipflopping. JM because he realized frank played better at 1st and Frank either to be stubborn or lost confidence in his skills over at first.

hold2dibber
03-10-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
I'm not defending Paulie's year last year or even that daubach deserved more PT but get out of here calling them comparable, there's a reason Daubach hasn't played close to a full season and it's A he sucks and/or B he's injured too much.

should your virtually identical be in teal??? take out both of their 2003 seasons and paulie's stats are way better than daubach's.

Well, I'm sorry, I posted the numbers and they're extremely similar. You haven't explained why the numbers are not similar, instead just saying that "Daubach sucks" even though the numbers show otherwise (I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's almost in the same class as Konerko). The 162 game averages I posted to start the thread show how similar their career numbers are when adjusted for the fact that Daubach has not gotten as many ABs as PK. Explain why they're misleading. Also, even if you're hell-bent on ignoring PK's disasterous '03 campaign, I'm not sure how you can say PK's stats are "way better" than Daubach's:

PK '99: 513 ABs, 24 HRs, 81 RBI, .863 OPS
BD '99: 381 ABs, 21 HRs, 73 RBI, .922 OPS

PK '00: 524 ABs, 21 HRs, 97 RBIs, .844 OPS
BD '00: 495 ABs, 21 HRs, 76 RBIs, .763 OPS

PK '01: 582 ABs, 32 HRs, 99 RBIs, .856 OPS
BD '01: 407 ABs, 22 HRs, 71 RBIs, .859 OPS

PK '02: 570 ABs, 27 HRs, 104 RBIs, .857 OPS
BD '02: 444 ABs, 20 HRs, 78 RBIs, .812 OPS

The way I see it, Daubach was substantially better in '99, PK was substantially better in '00, they were pretty much dead even in '01 (if Daubach had 582 ABs like PK in '01, he was on pace to finish with 32 HRs and 101 RBIs) and PK was a little bit better in '02 (if Daubach got 570 ABs in '02, he was on track for 25 HRs and 100 RBIs). Overall, PK has been better, but not much better - not enough so to say "Daubach sucks" unless you think PK sucks too.

daveeym
03-10-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Well, I'm sorry, I posted the numbers and they're extremely similar. You haven't explained why the numbers are not similar, instead just saying that "Daubach sucks" even though the numbers show otherwise (I'm not saying he's a world beater, but he's almost in the same class as Konerko). The 162 game averages I posted to start the thread show how similar their career numbers are when adjusted for the fact that Daubach has not gotten as many ABs as PK. Explain why they're misleading. Also, even if you're hell-bent on ignoring PK's disasterous '03 campaign, I'm not sure how you can say PK's stats are "way better" than Daubach's:

PK '99: 513 ABs, 24 HRs, 81 RBI, .863 OPS
BD '99: 381 ABs, 21 HRs, 73 RBI, .922 OPS

PK '00: 524 ABs, 21 HRs, 97 RBIs, .844 OPS
BD '00: 495 ABs, 21 HRs, 76 RBIs, .763 OPS

PK '01: 582 ABs, 32 HRs, 99 RBIs, .856 OPS
BD '01: 407 ABs, 22 HRs, 71 RBIs, .859 OPS

PK '02: 570 ABs, 27 HRs, 104 RBIs, .857 OPS
BD '02: 444 ABs, 20 HRs, 78 RBIs, .812 OPS

The way I see it, Daubach was substantially better in '99, PK was substantially better in '00, they were pretty much dead even in '01 (if Daubach had 582 ABs like PK in '01, he was on pace to finish with 32 HRs and 101 RBIs) and PK was a little bit better in '02 (if Daubach got 570 ABs in '02, he was on track for 25 HRs and 100 RBIs). Overall, PK has been better, but not much better - not enough so to say "Daubach sucks" unless you think PK sucks too.

Daubach's stats sucked last year too, i'm saying throw em both out. There's a reason he didn't get as many at bats in the past, reliability whether due to injury, he's streaky or whatever, to just throw it into 162 game averages is weak and if you tried to justify things like that in any other aspect of life a person would probably be called irresponsible particularly in a business. I love how their averages mysteriously dropped out in this comparison because Daubauch's over that 4 year span is much worse than PK's except for 1999. This is why i hate stat threads and shouldn't have gotten involved. :D:

gosox41
03-10-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Look at the 162-game averages of two players, both of whom play the same position and have been in the league just about the same amount of time (6-7 years):

Player A: .262 avg., 24 HR, 85 RBI, .822 OPS
Player B: .279 avg., 26 HR, 95 RBI, .812 OPS

Very comparable players. Yet, Player B will make $16 million over the next two years. Player A will be lucky to make $2 million over the next two years



Player B is Paul Konerko; Player A is Brian Daubach. This comparison just goes to show: (1) that KW grossly overpaid PK (which we all know already); and (2) JM grossly under-used Daubach last year.

If PK gets off to a hot start this year and the Sox can deal him for starting pitching, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Good post. I can't stand Konerko, and this further proves why he's overpaid.

Bob

batmanZoSo
03-10-2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
How's he a better defensive player?
Konerko
CAREER BY POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Total as 1B 648 622 5465.2 5736 5315 388 33 535 .994 9.39 .826

Daubach
CAREER BY POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Total as 1B 359 322 2817.2 2849 2609 212 28 217 .990 9.01 .837

Pauly had one of the worst years imaginable and I'm not defending that. But the pauly hatred is out of control here.

JM/KW/FT are the reason behind it all. None of them could make up their frickin mind about where thomas was going to play. We've had so many years of this crap that i don't even know how it all started. I seem to remember frank not wanting to dh, JM wanting him to and then the next year both of them completely flipflopping. JM because he realized frank played better at 1st and Frank either to be stubborn or lost confidence in his skills over at first.

I can't read those stats. If Konerko has a higher fielding mark it's because he doesn't get to anything. Daubach's no Keith Hernandez, but I trust him a lot more. Konerko strikes me as lazy in the field. He makes half assed diving attempts and never really tries for an errant throw. But I already said I don't want to get into this Daubach thing. I just want Konerko to be gone and hopefully it happens soon. And I hope he has a great career, but he doesn't fit in here.

sas1974
03-10-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by pinwheels3530
These are probably the same sox fans who wanted Jeff Liefer over Carlos Lee and Jose Canseco over Frank Thomas in 2001, wrong, wrong , wrong. Paulie is better than Daubauch!!!

I am not saying I want Dauber over Paulie. I just wouldn't mind having him around as a back up plan.

sas1974
03-10-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by mealfred13
I wouldn't mind seeing the guy put up numbers like he has in triple A, even if he's not hitting 25 homeruns. I would love to see the sox hit no homeruns this year and just crank out single after single consistently. Homeruns don't win every game.

Singles are great and I don't want to have to rely so heavily on the long ball either, but it's awfully hard to string together 3,4 or 5 hits in a row. You need to get power out of your 1B/DH. You need people that can drive the ball into the gaps and dent some bleacher seats on occasion.

hold2dibber
03-11-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by daveeym
There's a reason he didn't get as many at bats in the past, reliability whether due to injury, he's streaky or whatever, to just throw it into 162 game averages is weak and if you tried to justify things like that in any other aspect of life a person would probably be called irresponsible particularly in a business.

I don't think that makes any sense. It's not like Daubach was getting 150 ABs/year and I extrapolated. He was getting well over 400 ABs/year, so his numbers were legit. Why didn't he get as many ABs as Paulie? I don't really know, but I suspect that it was a combination of the Red Sox having other good players who needed ABs and the fact that Daubach, unlike Konerko, was never a hot shot prospect and therefore forced to earn each and every at-bat and never given the benefit of the doubt when he struggled. It seems to me that Daubach should have gotten more ABs. The point of the 162 game averages is that when Daubach plays, he's just about as good as Konerko. Regardless of the reasons for him not playing quite as much as PK, that fact remains.

I love how their averages mysteriously dropped out in this comparison because Daubauch's over that 4 year span is much worse than PK's except for 1999. This is why i hate stat threads and shouldn't have gotten involved. :D:

I wanted to keep it simple and I find Avg to be much, much less meaningful than OPS. Avg. is part of OPS (in that it is part of OBP), so OPS tells you a lot more about a player's production than average.

idseer
03-11-2004, 10:08 AM
one more little fact. in their careers:

daubach grounded into one double play every 56.6 ab's.
konerko grounded into one double play every 25 ab's.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Let's say the mid 2002 Konerko was the real deal...Okay, tell me why we need TWO big slugging first basemen? That's not smart baseball. You have to diversify your strengths and abilities on a ballclub. I would have traded him then while his value was the highest it'll ever be and we were out of it by then anyway.

The REAL problem goes back to trading Mike Cameron for Paul Konerko when the Sox already had a HOF-caliber 1B/DH in Frank Thomas.

I would argue that this trade has hurt the Sox and will hurt them for years to come. Over their respective careers, Konerko has been a slightly better offensive player than Cameron. However, in keeping Frank at DH, Frank's production has hurt (since he hits much better playing 1B than he does at DH). Moreover, CF has been a glaring hole for the Sox ever since they traded Cameron away. How much better would Sox pitchers have been if Cameron had been patrolling CF all these years?

It was a bad trade then, and in hindsight the trade looks even worse.