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sas1974
03-05-2004, 02:14 PM
Was is juiced or wasn't he?

Take a look at this series of photos of Barry through the years, featured on Foxsports.com, and draw your own conclusion:

Bonds Through the Years (http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2171304)

Hangar18
03-05-2004, 02:34 PM
YES. he juiced. Why dont they do one of Sammy Sosa?
the changes were Much More Dramatic and Noticable

StepsInSC
03-05-2004, 02:35 PM
I'm always playing devil's advocate...

but in my humble opinion, the picture's don't prove anything. I've seen bigger transformations in shorter periods of time by people doing it legitimately, and without being millionaires who can afford professional help.

rahulsekhar
03-05-2004, 02:39 PM
IMO was the quote from Gene Orza.

"Let's assume that (steroids) are a very bad thing to take," said Orza, who was speaking on a panel at The Octagon World Congress of Sports. "I have no doubt that they are not worse than cigarettes. But I would never say that to the clubs as an individual who represents the interests of players, 'Gee, I guess by not allowing baseball to suspend and fine players for smoking cigarettes, I am not protecting their health.'

"Whether it's good or bad for you, it's a far cry to say that because it's bad for you, you should participate in a structure which allows your employer to punish you for doing something that you shouldn't be doing," Orza said. "That's not my understanding of what unions do for their employees."


Let's please all dispense with any potential thought that the union cares 1 bit about the good of the game, because it's obvious that there's not concern for that. Steroid use by some members is bad for all. It calls the validity of anything accomplishment by any player into question, puts pressure on guys to do unhealthful things (like taking steroids so they can compete with guys who do), and financially impacts those that don't take them (just ask Frank).

Cigarettes don't impact baseball, so they shouldn't be subject to CBA even though they're bad for players. Steroids impact the game AND they're bad for players. That's the difference Gene.

StepsInSC
03-05-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
IMO was the quote from Gene Orza.

"Let's assume that (steroids) are a very bad thing to take," said Orza, who was speaking on a panel at The Octagon World Congress of Sports. "I have no doubt that they are not worse than cigarettes. But I would never say that to the clubs as an individual who represents the interests of players, 'Gee, I guess by not allowing baseball to suspend and fine players for smoking cigarettes, I am not protecting their health.'

"Whether it's good or bad for you, it's a far cry to say that because it's bad for you, you should participate in a structure which allows your employer to punish you for doing something that you shouldn't be doing," Orza said. "That's not my understanding of what unions do for their employees."


Let's please all dispense with any potential thought that the union cares 1 bit about the good of the game, because it's obvious that there's not concern for that. Steroid use by some members is bad for all. It calls the validity of anything accomplishment by any player into question, puts pressure on guys to do unhealthful things (like taking steroids so they can compete with guys who do), and financially impacts those that don't take them (just ask Frank).

Cigarettes don't impact baseball, so they shouldn't be subject to CBA even though they're bad for players. Steroids impact the game AND they're bad for players. That's the difference Gene.

True. If Gene thinks that the fans give .01 cents about the health of the players, think again. Its more about the history and tradition of the game and keeping it 'pure'.

Kittle
03-05-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
True. If Gene thinks that the fans give .01 cents about the health of the players, think again. Its more about the history and tradition of the game and keeping it 'pure'.

Very true.

Gene's an ass. He cares about money and power, not protecting the players (or the game, for that matter).

rahulsekhar
03-05-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
True. If Gene thinks that the fans give .01 cents about the health of the players, think again. Its more about the history and tradition of the game and keeping it 'pure'.

I disagree. I think many fans would be upset to see the McGwires of MLB in Lyle Alzado shape in 20 years.

sas1974
03-05-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
I disagree. I think many fans would be upset to see the McGwires of MLB in Lyle Alzado shape in 20 years.

I, for one, wouldn't be upset. These guys know exactly what they are doing. If they get sick or die from this stuff it's the own fault. It's a risk they were willing to take and I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

StepsInSC
03-05-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
I disagree. I think many fans would be upset to see the McGwires of MLB in Lyle Alzado shape in 20 years.

I'm thinking in terms of the more immediate future. The reason I don't want them juicing is because it ruins the game, IMO, not because I fear for their health in 20 years.

While its sad to see any athlete deteriorate later in their life, every other human goes through the same thing and I'd probably have less sympathy for athletes who abused roid's then others.

Huisj
03-05-2004, 07:34 PM
I think the most interesting thing in those pictures is his forearms. they were always kind of skinny and all the sudden they were big and buldging with veins around the '99 and '00 pics. the rest of his body is tough to judge though, because he sort of looked like he was getting a little bit bigger each year for a while starting way back in '94. Plus, the way he wears his uniform changes year to year, and this makes it really hard to compare what his body actually looks like. i dunno

MarkEdward
03-05-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
True. If Gene thinks that the fans give .01 cents about the health of the players, think again. Its more about the history and tradition of the game and keeping it 'pure'.

Since when has the professional game of baseball been pure?

Throughout the early 20th century, plenty of players were accused (and some found guilty) of throwing ball games. Doesn't sound so pure to me.

Prior to 1947, non-white players were not allowed to play in the majors. How in the world can that be considered pure?

Throughout baseball's history, players have always tried to skirt the rules. There have been plenty of examples of corked bats, scuffed balls, and other various illegalities that players have used through the years. Hell, didn't Norm Cash use a corked bat during his amazing 1961 season? Again, the purity test doesn't hold.

Before steroids became the popular performance enhancers, players were toying with other drugs that they believed would help improve their game. Greenies was the performance enhancer of choice for a whole generation of players.

Baseball has never been pure. The history of the game has its fair share of bastards, scoundrels, and crooks. This steroid controversy is just another mark on MLB's list of indiscretions.

StepsInSC
03-06-2004, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Since when has the professional game of baseball been pure?

Throughout the early 20th century, plenty of players were accused (and some found guilty) of throwing ball games. Doesn't sound so pure to me.

Prior to 1947, non-white players were not allowed to play in the majors. How in the world can that be considered pure?

Throughout baseball's history, players have always tried to skirt the rules. There have been plenty of examples of corked bats, scuffed balls, and other various illegalities that players have used through the years. Hell, didn't Norm Cash use a corked bat during his amazing 1961 season? Again, the purity test doesn't hold.

Before steroids became the popular performance enhancers, players were toying with other drugs that they believed would help improve their game. Greenies was the performance enhancer of choice for a whole generation of players.

Baseball has never been pure. The history of the game has its fair share of bastards, scoundrels, and crooks. This steroid controversy is just another mark on MLB's list of indiscretions.

You're exactly right, which is why I said 'pure' and not pure.

MarkEdward
03-06-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
You're exactly right, which is why I said 'pure' and not pure.

Oops, sorry about that. Didn't see the quotes at first.

sas1974
03-06-2004, 12:58 AM
I don't give a rat's ass what has gone on or what has been done in the past. IT NEEDS TO STOP! Players need to learn the hard way that this is not acceptable and WILL NOT be tolerated. If you want to watch a bunch of juiced up freaks go at it, watch the WWE. There is no place for it in Major League baseball. Don't try to tell me that Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Willie Mays were on steroids.

gosox41
03-06-2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
YES. he juiced. Why dont they do one of Sammy Sosa?
the changes were Much More Dramatic and Noticable



You can't do that to good old lovable Sammy. He is baseball.

gosox41
03-06-2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
I disagree. I think many fans would be upset to see the McGwires of MLB in Lyle Alzado shape in 20 years.

Not to sound to cold hearted, but I just want the truth to come out about Sammy so in that particular case I'm all for whatever outs him as a steroid abuser.

Bob

sas1974
03-07-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Not to sound to cold hearted, but I just want the truth to come out about Sammy so in that particular case I'm all for whatever outs him as a steroid abuser.

Bob

I don't think it's cold-hearted at all. If these guy get sick or die, it's their own fault. The side effects of steroids are no secret and they know the risk they are taking. If those risks are worth it to them, then so be it.

Kittle
03-07-2004, 06:42 AM
Let's just throw the rule book out the window and let the players do whatever they want. THAT'LL make the game better!

sas1974
03-07-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
Let's just throw the rule book out the window and let the players do whatever they want. THAT'LL make the game better!

I say let's give them aluminum bats.

That would also make A-Rod's new job at third base pretty interesting.