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View Full Version : A thought on Steriods and a Sox Player


Clarkdog
03-04-2004, 11:27 AM
First let me be clear - this post is pure speculation. It is not an accusation or rumor.

A lot has been made about the cloud of suspicion and steriod use among the big sluggers (Bonds, Sosa, McGuire). But not much has been said of pitchers, but reading an article in the Trib yesterday it was mentioned (and I'll try and find the article to link) that pitchers can possibly pick up 6-7 mph on their fastballs through steriods and training.

We have a certain pitcher who mysteriously lost that much velocity a season ago.

What was the team/piching coaches position on why this occured? I would like to know for piece of mind, as although this pitcher was roughed up a bit, and our acquistion of him was very controversial - I really am a fan of his attitude as a player and teammate.

cheeses_h_rice
03-04-2004, 11:31 AM
Interesting thought, I have to admit. It hadn't occurred to me that the drop in velocity was due to anything but some sort of injury.

Do performance-enhancing drugs really help pitchers that much, though?

billnahorodny
03-04-2004, 11:37 AM
A couple of weeks ago when Bruce Levine was on CLTV with Lou Canellis, he said that when all the info on players using steroids finally comes out....there would be several pitchers' names on that list.

SSN721
03-04-2004, 11:39 AM
That is a very fascinating observation. The thought had never occured to me, I didnt really think that steroids could do much to help the velocity of a pitcher. But if it is shown it is I would imagine there would be more than a few pitchers who use or consider using it.

jackbrohamer
03-04-2004, 11:57 AM
Koch never looked bulked-up before last year. Goofy, but not bulked-up.

Deadguy
03-04-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by billnahorodny
A couple of weeks ago when Bruce Levine was on CLTV with Lou Canellis, he said that when all the info on players using steroids finally comes out....there would be several pitchers' names on that list.

The first Major League player to be identified as testing positive for steroid use was Derrick Turnbow, a relief pitcher for the Anaheim Angels. He flunked a drug test during a U.S. Olympic training camp.

ewokpelts
03-04-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by SSN721
That is a very fascinating observation. The thought had never occured to me, I didnt really think that steroids could do much to help the velocity of a pitcher. But if it is shown it is I would imagine there would be more than a few pitchers who use or consider using it.
mebbe it can explain why clemens could maintain his power pitching while not losing control for almost 20 years? Nolan Ryan was a VERY WILD pitcher, he slowly couldnt maintain the same control over 6 innings compared to when he was younger. Roger, on the other hand, is almost the same exact pitcher like he was in 86 with the boston cubs.
GENE

Rex Hudler
03-04-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by SSN721
That is a very fascinating observation. The thought had never occured to me, I didnt really think that steroids could do much to help the velocity of a pitcher. But if it is shown it is I would imagine there would be more than a few pitchers who use or consider using it.

I highly doubt steroids have that much of an effect on a pitcher. There would be many more examples of this kind of thing happening.

Tekijawa
03-04-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
Koch never looked bulked-up before last year. Goofy, but not bulked-up.
maybe he's talking about Parque? :D:

Paulwny
03-04-2004, 12:29 PM
That may explain the number of arm problems over the last number of years. Although from an article I just read, human growth hormones may be the pitchers' steroid.

No one is entirely sure how pervasive hGH is, and players say it has not received the attention that steroids have, even within the game. However, since a few notable players started using hGH over the past few years, they say use has increased, especially among pitchers.

"Some guys call it `the pitcher's steroid,'" one major league executive says. "Pitchers think it will give them the benefits of steroids without the risks."

The bigger threat is in the minor leagues, where players are tested for steroids. Baseball does not test for hGH, but even if it did, it is virtually undetectable. Like most supplements that are common in baseball, however, hGH is banned by the International Olympic Committee, and many in baseball consider it to be cheating on a par with steroid use.

http://www.qwest4health.com/Dangers%20of%20HGH.htm

Huisj
03-04-2004, 12:33 PM
human growth hormones are said to help athletes recover faster from workouts. it seems that this would be very appealing to pitchers if it meant they could recover faster from an outing. it would sort of be like minimizing fatigue effects.

daveeym
03-04-2004, 12:35 PM
Pitchers would benefit from the added strength to the legs and torsos but i'd imagine it would be detrimental to bulk up too much in the upper body. No doubt there are pitchers on roids but i doubt it's as prevelant.

I think what is more prevalent and imho a bigger story is that radar guns are dialed up to show a faster speed.

Maximo
03-04-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Pitchers would benefit from the added strength to the legs and torsos but i'd imagine it would be detrimental to bulk up too much in the upper body. No doubt there are pitchers on roids but i doubt it's as prevelant.

I think what is more prevalent and imho a bigger story is that radar guns are dialed up to show a faster speed.

That's exactly what I said to the state cop who pulled me over on I-94 last week.

Paulwny
03-04-2004, 12:47 PM
Interesting article if it's true.

"I'm a pitcher and I ended the spring with my fastball at 84 m.p.h. After taking the cycle for 2 months, I had no side effects whatsoever. I have a pretty rough lifting regimen, but who doesn't. At the end of the cycle, I put on 20 pounds of pure, lean mass, and I am so cut up that you would just have to see it...a written description would not do me justice. I was put on the gun yesterday, topping out at 94 m.p.h. "

http://www.anabolicsteroids.com/sustanonbaseball.html

sas1974
03-04-2004, 01:13 PM
I guess I have never thought about anyone but the big sluggers either. Although I think if they added 6-10mph to a fastball that we may see a few more guys hit triple digits on the gun.

sas1974
03-04-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Interesting article if it's true.

"I'm a pitcher and I ended the spring with my fastball at 84 m.p.h. After taking the cycle for 2 months, I had no side effects whatsoever. I have a pretty rough lifting regimen, but who doesn't. At the end of the cycle, I put on 20 pounds of pure, lean mass, and I am so cut up that you would just have to see it...a written description would not do me justice. I was put on the gun yesterday, topping out at 94 m.p.h. "

http://www.anabolicsteroids.com/sustanonbaseball.html

That is a scary article. It makes you wonder how many more guys there are out there like that guy.

SSN721
03-04-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
That is a scary article. It makes you wonder how many more guys there are out there like that guy.

Most of the stories on that site are scary. It seems like most of them are a joke, cant really tell for sure, there are a lot of stupid people out there. Especially the stories about the teenagers taking it for football and being enticed by the better body and not thinking abou the after effects. Sickening. I dont know how people can read that and still feel nothing is wrong with athletes taking steroids.

Lip Man 1
03-04-2004, 07:34 PM
Just for the record, the use of performing enhancement materials has been going on for years. Steroids is just the latest fad.

In the 60's pitchers used to paint their sore arms with this stuff called DSMO. They used to give it to horses to help them run better, it loosened up the muscles and in pitcher's case, the blisteringly hot heat generated by the compound supposedly helped with the soreness.

Then they found out the stuff could make humans blind.....pitchers kept taking it anyway. (Just ask Whitey Ford...)

Athletes will do anything they can to win regardless of potential long term harmful effects. The attitude seems to be 'I may live five years less, but I'll get two World Series rings or make the All Star Team four times....even trade.'

Never having been in that position I can't say for sure I (or you the reader) wouldn't do the exact same thing.

Lip

Huisj
03-04-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just for the record, the use of performing enhancement materials has been going on for years. Steroids is just the latest fad.

In the 60's pitchers used to paint their sore arms with this stuff called DSMO. They used to give it to horses to help them run better, it loosened up the muscles and in pitcher's case, the blisteringly hot heat generated by the compound supposedly helped with the soreness.

Then they found out the stuff could make humans blind.....pitchers kept taking it anyway. (Just ask Whitey Ford...)

Athletes will do anything they can to win regardless of potential long term harmful effects. The attitude seems to be 'I may live five years less, but I'll get two World Series rings or make the All Star Team four times....even trade.'

Never having been in that position I can't say for sure I (or you the reader) wouldn't do the exact same thing.

Lip

yikes. when i was in high school, i had a real moronic old coach my junior year, and he overworked guys like crazy so lots of people had sore arms. on our way to games, the whole bus would smell like icy-hot because half the team would be putting it all over their arms. well, before one particular game, all the sudden our coach pulled out this horse-hide crud that he says is like icy-hot for race horses, and he starts rubbing it on this one kid's arm. the kid was shocked at how strong the stuff was, but then his arm turned all red and irritated. the coach, being the moron he was, just said he needed to toughen up and not be a baby about a little burning feeling. he tried to talk a lot of other people into using it too, and everyone said no after seeing this kid's arm and painful facial expressions.

i wonder if that was the same crap as what they used in the 60s.

Lip Man 1
03-04-2004, 10:09 PM
Sounds like it...Jim Bouton talks about the stuff in Ball Four.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
03-05-2004, 12:14 AM
If bad skin is truly one of the indicators of being on the juice, then Randy Johnson is a potential suspect, too.

SMO
:gulp:

Paulwny
03-05-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

In the 60's pitchers used to paint their sore arms with this stuff called DSMO. They used to give it to horses to help them run better, it loosened up the muscles and in pitcher's case, the blisteringly hot heat generated by the compound supposedly helped with the soreness.

Then they found out the stuff could make humans blind.....pitchers kept taking it anyway. (Just ask Whitey Ford...)


Lip
I'm assuming you meant DMSO since I've never heard of DSMO.
This is the 1st time I've ever heard that DMSO causes blindness. Do you remember where you read this?
DMSO was approved by the FDA for bladder problems many years ago. 60 Minutes devoted part of their program, I believe some time in the 80's, on the effectiveness of DMSO for the treatment of arthritis. Many people continue to use it today and it is not illegal to purchase or sell.

Lip Man 1
03-05-2004, 12:27 PM
Read Jim Bouton's book Ball Four

Lip

Nick@Nite
03-05-2004, 01:28 PM
I think Bill Lee mentioned DMSO in his book The Wrong Stuff. IIRC, he said using it gave you bad breath... but you could throw a two hitter with a sore wing.

Paulwny
03-05-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Read Jim Bouton's book Ball Four

Lip

I read a few articles where Bouton claims he and Ford used DMSO but, haven't seen were he claims it causes blindness. If he claimed that in his book, he is wrong.

Lip Man 1
03-05-2004, 05:45 PM
He specifically says that in the book, which is why he says most pitchers immediately stopping using the stuff.

Lip

Paulwny
03-05-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
He specifically says that in the book, which is why he says most pitchers immediately stopping using the stuff.

Lip

I suspect a rumor started amongst pitchers since this was before FDA approval.