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Dadawg_77
03-03-2004, 10:37 PM
The absurdity of the first half of Big Hurt's career has obscured the effectiveness of the second: His worst full season EqAs are .290, .301, .303, and you can find any number of "stars" who don't have two numbers tat high on their player card. It would be nice to see Thomas get a chance to go nuts on a big stage in October, a la Barry Bonds, but he doesn't need that to validate his status as an inner-circle Hall of Famer.

sas1974
03-03-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The absurdity of the first half of Big Hurt's career has obscured the effectiveness of the second: His worst full season EqAs are .290, .301, .303, and you can find any number of "stars" who don't have two numbers tat high on their player card. It would be nice to see Thomas get a chance to go nuts on a big stage in October, a la Barry Bonds, but he doesn't need that to validate his status as an inner-circle Hall of Famer.

Nice to see Frank get a little recognition. I think people take the big guy for granted some times and don't realize how good he really is and has been.

Deadguy
03-03-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The absurdity of the first half of Big Hurt's career has obscured the effectiveness of the second: His worst full season EqAs are .290, .301, .303, and you can find any number of "stars" who don't have two numbers tat high on their player card. It would be nice to see Thomas get a chance to go nuts on a big stage in October, a la Barry Bonds, but he doesn't need that to validate his status as an inner-circle Hall of Famer.

I think Sammy Sosa's career EQA is .298, so Thomas has only had one full season where his EQA fell below Sosa's career average.

It's no wonder that sabermatricians consider Thomas to be an inner circle HOFer. It's a shame that the media and the casual fans just see him as nothing but a glorified DH, who still has a ways to go before becoming a lock for the HOF.

batmanZoSo
03-03-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I think Sammy Sosa's career EQA is .298, so Thomas has only had one full season where his EQA fell below Sosa's career average.

It's no wonder that sabermatricians consider Thomas to be an inner circle HOFer. It's a shame that the media and the casual fans just see him as nothing but a glorified DH, who still has a ways to go before becoming a lock for the HOF.

It's astonishing to me that so many people don't think he's a hall of famer. They're just ignorant. Frank's easily the best hitter the Sox have ever had. Doesn't that alone qualify him for the hall? It's not like we're an expansion team. Statistically, he's one of the best 20 hitters who ever lived. He'll end up with about 550 homers and an average over .300. I think he'll stay close enough to the mark to keep it from dipping 10 more points.

mantis1212
03-03-2004, 11:21 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/mlb_historical_player_stats.jsp?baseballScope=AL&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=all&statType=1&sitSplit=&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0&Submit=Submit&timeSubFrame=0&&sortByStat=OBP

Yeah, the company Hurt has here should lock him into Cooperstown...

Palehose13
03-03-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/mlb_historical_player_stats.jsp?baseballScope=AL&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=all&statType=1&sitSplit=&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0&Submit=Submit&timeSubFrame=0&&sortByStat=OBP

Yeah, the company Hurt has here should lock him into Cooperstown...
Excellent company.

MRKARNO
03-03-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/mlb_historical_player_stats.jsp?baseballScope=AL&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=all&statType=1&sitSplit=&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=0&Submit=Submit&timeSubFrame=0&&sortByStat=OBP

Yeah, the company Hurt has here should lock him into Cooperstown...

5th all time OBP and 8th all time Slugging. Frank should be pissed that there is any doubt that he should be in the hall, especially in this day and age where OBP is seen as the most important Stat

voodoochile
03-03-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
5th all time OBP and 8th all time Slugging. Frank should be pissed that there is any doubt that he should be in the hall, especially in this day and age where OBP is seen as the most important Stat

That's just AL, but it also means he is 6th all time in OPS. Which is NOT horrible.

A. Cavatica
03-03-2004, 11:59 PM
He's fifth in ML history in OBP.

Ted is at .481
Babe is at .469
Lou is at .442
Barry is at .433 [assuming his numbers aren't purged]
and Frank is at .428.

I had no idea he was so high. He's a lock.

MRKARNO
03-04-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
He's fifth in ML history in OBP.

Ted is at .481
Babe is at .469
Lou is at .442
Barry is at .433 [assuming his numbers aren't purged]
and Frank is at .428.

I had no idea he was so high. He's a lock.

OK i found a better source of stats: baseball reference http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OBP_career.shtml
Frank is 10th all time, but 3 of the people ahead of him had most of their careers taking place before the 1st world series and therefore not in the modern era of baseball and that really makes Frank 7th all time as far as I'm concerned behind WIlliams, Ruth Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds and Cobb.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SLG_career.shtml
He's only 16th in slugging though.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
10th all time OPS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
24th in career walks, but he will be top 10 and could be top 5 when it's all said and done for him

If he isn't a HOFer already and he hits 500+ homers, I dont know what the meaning of a hall of famer is.

Palehose13
03-04-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
OK i found a better source of stats: baseball reference http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OBP_career.shtml
Frank is 10th all time, but 3 of the people ahead of him had most of their careers taking place before the 1st world series and therefore not in the modern era of baseball and that really makes Frank 7th all time as far as I'm concerned behind WIlliams, Ruth Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds and Cobb.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SLG_career.shtml
He's only 16th in slugging though.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
10th all time OPS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
24th in career walks, but he will be top 10 and could be top 5 when it's all said and done for him

If he isn't a HOFer already and he hits 500+ homers, I dont know what the meaning of a hall of famer is.
Funny thing, he is ahead of SamME in all of those categories. Scammy isn't even in the top 100 for on base %. Nah...he shouldn't be given a * when they "find out" about his steroid use.

ondafarm
03-04-2004, 12:17 AM
I don't see why anybody considers Frank Thomas not a 1st ballot HOFer. I am a sabretician and I have always held him in the highest regard. (To JR, diminished skills my behind.)

A. Cavatica
03-04-2004, 12:17 AM
While looking over the all-time slugging leaders, I noticed that Frank has only 11 triples in his career. Other modern players have low totals too: Ramirez 14, McGwire 6, Piazza 6. Barry Bonds -- perhaps the greatest power-speed combo ever -- has 74.

On the other hand, the older players have tons of triples. Babe had 136, Ted 71, Lou 163, Jimmie Foxx 125, Hank Greenberg 71 in 3500 fewer at-bats than Bonds. Maybe it's different ballparks, maybe it's better outfield play, maybe it's better pitching, but clearly the game has changed enough that you can't draw a fair comparison.

I suspect that even though Frank is 12th all-time in slugging, he'd rank ahead of Hornsby, Dimaggio, & Greenberg if they were contemporaries. Factor in his OBP and he's probably the 6th or 7th best hitter ever.

mantis1212
03-04-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
OK i found a better source of stats: baseball reference http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OBP_career.shtml
Frank is 10th all time, but 3 of the people ahead of him had most of their careers taking place before the 1st world series and therefore not in the modern era of baseball and that really makes Frank 7th all time as far as I'm concerned behind WIlliams, Ruth Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds and Cobb.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SLG_career.shtml
He's only 16th in slugging though.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
10th all time OPS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
24th in career walks, but he will be top 10 and could be top 5 when it's all said and done for him

If he isn't a HOFer already and he hits 500+ homers, I dont know what the meaning of a hall of famer is.

How could mlb.com and baseball-reference have two different OBP numbers for Ty Cobb? I was all ready to talk smack to my Tiger fan coworker tomorrow- thanks a lot MrKarno! :smile:

Dadawg_77
03-04-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
While looking over the all-time slugging leaders, I noticed that Frank has only 11 triples in his career. Other modern players have low totals too: Ramirez 14, McGwire 6, Piazza 6. Barry Bonds -- perhaps the greatest power-speed combo ever -- has 74.

On the other hand, the older players have tons of triples. Babe had 136, Ted 71, Lou 163, Jimmie Foxx 125, Hank Greenberg 71 in 3500 fewer at-bats than Bonds. Maybe it's different ballparks, maybe it's better outfield play, maybe it's better pitching, but clearly the game has changed enough that you can't draw a fair comparison.

I suspect that even though Frank is 12th all-time in slugging, he'd rank ahead of Hornsby, Dimaggio, & Greenberg if they were contemporaries. Factor in his OBP and he's probably the 6th or 7th best hitter ever.

Frank is 12th in OPS+ which is adjusted for league, era, park effects

A. Cavatica
03-04-2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Frank is 12th in OPS+ which is adjusted for league, era, park effects

Where's the list? How close are the guys from 7-12?

After I suggested that he might be the 6th or 7th best all-time I reconsidered. 12th sounds closer to the truth.

Deadguy
03-04-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Where's the list? How close are the guys from 7-12?

After I suggested that he might be the 6th or 7th best all-time I reconsidered. 12th sounds closer to the truth.

http://www.baseballreference.com/leaders/OPSplus_career.shtml

Arguments could be made that Thomas is better than Jackson, Brouthers, McGwire, and Browning, with Hornsby and Foxx being the only RH hitters reasonably better than FT.

ma-gaga
03-04-2004, 12:46 AM
7th overall, 12th overall. It's pretty amazing either way... If he doesn't get elected first ballot it will be a shame.

SSN721
03-04-2004, 06:57 AM
Its not even debateable. With numbers like that there is no question that he is a hall of famer. Amazing how Sammy isnt even close but talked about by national media how he is an easy lock and Frank still has to do more things to get in the hall. Unbeleivable.

dougs78
03-04-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
While looking over the all-time slugging leaders, I noticed that Frank has only 11 triples in his career. Other modern players have low totals too: Ramirez 14, McGwire 6, Piazza 6. Barry Bonds -- perhaps the greatest power-speed combo ever -- has 74.

On the other hand, the older players have tons of triples. Babe had 136, Ted 71, Lou 163, Jimmie Foxx 125, Hank Greenberg 71 in 3500 fewer at-bats than Bonds. Maybe it's different ballparks, maybe it's better outfield play, maybe it's better pitching, but clearly the game has changed enough that you can't draw a fair comparison.


I would guess that its a direct effect of some of the massive park dimensions they played in back then. Heck there were some parks with centerfield at like 450-500 feet. If you got one past the fielders you could run all day. Besides the bigger dimensions in fair territory, there were often greater distances between the foul line and the stands. That means that more balls rolling all the way into the left field corner while people jogged into third.

I could be wrong, but that would be my guess.

voodoochile
03-04-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
OK i found a better source of stats: baseball reference http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OBP_career.shtml
Frank is 10th all time, but 3 of the people ahead of him had most of their careers taking place before the 1st world series and therefore not in the modern era of baseball and that really makes Frank 7th all time as far as I'm concerned behind WIlliams, Ruth Gehrig, Hornsby, Bonds and Cobb.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SLG_career.shtml
He's only 16th in slugging though.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
10th all time OPS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml
24th in career walks, but he will be top 10 and could be top 5 when it's all said and done for him

If he isn't a HOFer already and he hits 500+ homers, I dont know what the meaning of a hall of famer is.

He'll finish above both Helton and Rameriz after their careers are over, IMO.

doublem23
03-04-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He'll finish above both Helton and Rameriz after their careers are over, IMO.

Definitely Ramirez, Helton I'm not so sure of if he plays the rest of his days at Coors Field.