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Jerko
03-03-2004, 08:54 AM
It never ends with this guy. Anything to avoid the real issue.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay031.html[/URL]

I enjoyed this article until the Cub/Red Sox gag-fest about 3/4 of the way through, as if EVERY baseball fan wanted to see that garbage. I guess all NBA fans are clamoring for that Clippers/Cavalier finals matchup since it seems everyone is rooting for perennial losers now.

SaltyPretzel
03-03-2004, 09:24 AM
I wonder how much heat Dusty Baker will get from this. I doubt he was that ignorant to know what was going on with his players.

Jerko
03-03-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
I wonder how much heat Dusty Baker will get from this. I doubt he was that ignorant to know what was going on with his players.

Well, when Darren Baker shows up as a 280 pound 6 year old bat boy, maybe THEN somebody will hold ole Dust's feet to the fire.

SaltyPretzel
03-03-2004, 09:36 AM
I wonder if Dusty would notice if Darren was smoking pot in the house.

fhqwhgads
03-03-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Bonds is an a-ahole

In other news, the Pope is Catholic, and bears do **** in the woods.

Jerko
03-03-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by fhqwhgads
In other news, the Pope is Catholic, and bears do **** in the woods.

And the bears would at least ADMIT they **** in the woods, they wouldn't say they were being picked on because they're black bears.

DrCrawdad
03-03-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by SaltyPretzel
I wonder if Dusty would notice if Darren was smoking pot in the house.

Dusty is the Sgt. Schultz of baseball.
http://www.direct.ca/bigpetes/schultz.jpg

Fungo
03-03-2004, 10:19 AM
While your at it Jay, lets put a few of those * 's next to your buddy Sammy's name. Corking a bat and using it in a game is cheating as well.

Kittle
03-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Sorry if this violates rules on this site regarding foul language...

...but **** Barry Bonds and his "black power" bull****.

The_Floridian
03-03-2004, 10:47 AM
The Black Power salute by John Carlos and Tommie Smith at the 68 Olympics was one of the most eloquent and powerful political statements of our time. It was done by two amateur atheletes who risked enormous public scrutiny, not to mention threats to their very lives, by performing it. It came during one of the most violent and turbulent years in American history, when violence and anger was constantly being directed at black Americans.

For Barry Bonds, a millionaire athelete with everything in the world his for the taking, to compare himself to these two brave individuals because people are asking him if he took steroids is one of the most hypocritical gestures I have ever heard of.

This guy is a world-class schmuck.

kittle42
03-03-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by The_Floridian
For Barry Bonds, a millionaire athelete with everything in the world his for the taking, to compare himself to these two brave individuals because people are asking him if he took steroids is one of the most hypocritical gestures I have ever heard of.

This guy is a world-class schmuck.

Playing the race card is the easiest - and one of the most despicable - ways to try to deflect attention and blame, especially in sports.

WinningUgly!
03-03-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Well, when Darren Baker shows up as a 280 pound 6 year old bat boy, maybe THEN somebody will hold ole Dust's feet to the fire.

Brian26
03-03-2004, 12:59 PM
LOL!

duke of dorwood
03-03-2004, 01:37 PM
Outstanding picture.

Wonder if more games outcomes have been changed due to home runs from steroid induced players, or from Pete Rose gambling?

Uncle_Patrick
03-03-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by kittle42


Playing the race card is the easiest - and one of the most despicable - ways to try to deflect attention and blame, especially in sports.


I wonder when guys like Bonds play the race card, are they the least bit embarrassed or are their egos so huge that they feel that placing blame where they can is better than admitting guilt? I suspect its the latter. The sad thing is, he'll probably get someone to stand behind him and agree with him.

MarkEdward
03-03-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
It never ends with this guy. Anything to avoid the real issue.


Yeah, this guy is such an ass. (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/columnists/dan_le_batard/6824151.htm)

Seriously, since when has Marrioti's opinion become valid?

Uncle_Patrick
03-03-2004, 02:36 PM
He's got to be right at least once in a while.

Jerko
03-03-2004, 03:05 PM
Oh my God. Bonds has been spewing crap for years, and just because there is finally some evidence that he may have taken steroids and he's finally getting called on it, he can lie about it, call people names, and make it a racial issue just because Mariotti wrote about it? None of this stuff happened because he's sad his father died? I heard him call Wendell a *****, I heard him call Wendell chicken crap, I've seen him fighting with Jeff Kent (another pud) etc. What the hell! I hope I have you on my jury if I ever murder someone MarkEdward. I already have my defense ready. My father died when I was 18, and that night, I was sad. There's my one holdout. I don't like Mariotti either but that article was based on things that have happened, not just Mariottis opinion.

SoxFan76
03-03-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Oh my God. Bonds has been spewing crap for years, and just because there is finally some evidence that he may have taken steroids and he's finally getting called on it, he can lie about it, call people names, and make it a racial issue just because Mariotti wrote about it? None of this stuff happened because he's sad his father died? I heard him call Wendell a *****, I heard him call Wendell chicken crap, I've seen him fighting with Jeff Kent (another pud) etc. What the hell! I hope I have you on my jury if I ever murder someone MarkEdward. I already have my defense ready. My father died when I was 18, and that night, I was sad. There's my one holdout. I don't like Mariotti either but that article was based on things that have happened, not just Mariottis opinion.

Thanks for saying that. I know Mariotti says a lot of stupid things, but the Bonds issue wasn't his opinion, he wrote what Bonds said in the locker room. Now mentioning the Cubs and Red Sox at the end, and failing to mention Sammy Sosa does remind you that Mariotti wrote the column.

Hokiesox
03-03-2004, 03:58 PM
For anyone near a research library, look up the New York Times op/ed pages from 1920-21, and you'll see the exact same stuff written about the integrity of the game. Weird, but history does repeat itself.

MarkEdward
03-03-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Oh my God. Bonds has been spewing crap for years,

Um, what kind of crap has Bonds been spewing for years?

None of this stuff happened because he's sad his father died?

I don't know what you're referring to (I didn't bother to read the article), but I think my mood would change if one of my loved ones passed away (especially a parent).

Originally posted by Hokiesox
For anyone near a research library, look up the New York Times op/ed pages from 1920-21, and you'll see the exact same stuff written about the integrity of the game. Weird, but history does repeat itself.

You can go back further than that. Players from the 19th century complained that players from the 1920s made too much money and didn't play hard enough. Players from the 1920s said the same thing about players from the 1950s. Players from the 1950s said the same things about players from the 1980s. And so on and so on.

Still, the Black Sox *did* severely hurt the game. They hurt it much more than a couple of steroids users can ever dream of hurting baseball. One can make the argument that when taking steroids, you're trying to win, to improve yourself. The Black Sox intentionally lost ball games.

jackbrohamer
03-03-2004, 05:12 PM
[i]One can make the argument that when taking steroids, you're trying to win, to improve yourself. [/B]

As well as, um, cheating and committing felonies. You can also argue that when Pete Rose gambled on his own team while he managed it, he was trying extra-hard to win those games and to improve his team's record. It's not an attractive argument.

Jerko
03-03-2004, 05:30 PM
Oh where to start. Just do a google search on "BARRY BONDS QUOTES" and you'll find many stories on what a jerk he's been. Also, you posted the article about how sad he was that his father died; which is fine; I never said he was wrong for that. Doesn't make cheating right though or give him free reign to do whatever he wants. Many articles I just saw say he acts like he's above the game, which is supposedly taboo. He's just a selfish guy who fights with his teammates and basically thinks he's better than everyone.

Kittle
03-03-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I hope I have you on my jury if I ever murder someone MarkEdward.

MarkEdward cares more about arguing for the sake of arguing than the intellectual aspect of debating, so don't take his option too seriously.

Kroozah
03-03-2004, 07:45 PM
Well, Mark made a good point and everyone jumps on him.

JAY MARIOTTI has been the enemy for white sox fans for awhile, now he puts out an article and now some of you believe it as truth, what's changed?

Is it because it is something that you want to believe is the truth?

And before you jump on me, I only have one point, which is living out here in the Bay Area myself, have not seen nor heard one thing about Barry using the race card.

Kroozah
03-03-2004, 08:18 PM
an excerpt from Henry Schulman, Chronicle Staff Writer

Bonds did make a statement of sorts. As he walked toward the showers after Tuesday's workout, past a table at which Willie Mays was sitting, Bonds said presumably about himself, "The most wanted man in America." He then raised his fist, a la Tommie Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympics, and said, "Black power."

Sf newspaper article (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/03/03/SPG1B5CC7M14.DTL)

Jerko
03-03-2004, 09:30 PM
Well, I didn't make it up. And the fact that I think Bonds is a jerk has nothing to do with Mariotti. I can see things on my own.

MarkEdward
03-03-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Oh where to start. Just do a google search on "BARRY BONDS QUOTES" and you'll find many stories on what a jerk he's been.

OK:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Barry+Bonds+Quotes

First site:
When I hit it, I couldn't believe I hit it. Everything was in slow motion. It looked like it was stopped in midair. Then I saw it went past those people (on the left field wall) and I thought, 'Wow! I did it!'
Fifth site:
I like to be against the odds. I'm not afraid to be lonely at the top. With me, it's just the satisfaction of the game. Just performance.

There are a whole bunch of quotes about Bonds from this site:
http://www.everwonder.com/david/bonds/quotes.htm

Dude sure sounds like a real bastard.

Also, you posted the article about how sad he was that his father died; which is fine; I never said he was wrong for that. Doesn't make cheating right though or give him free reign to do whatever he wants.

I posted that just to give you another view of Bonds.

Many articles I just saw say he acts like he's above the game, which is supposedly taboo. He's just a selfish guy who fights with his teammates and basically thinks he's better than everyone.

Rich Aurilia on Barry Bonds, from http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001869872_marinotes03.html:
"I can only tell you this, that Barry Bonds was the best player I ever played with. He makes everyone around him better, and it would be a shame if anyone tried to put an asterisk next to his accomplishments."

What a bastard.

Jerko
03-03-2004, 10:07 PM
Well, Kittle, when you're right you're right. I've heard of Devil's Advocate, but Mark Edward takes the cake. I am not going to be reduced to posting every negative article I can pull off of Google on Bonds just to prove a point, but they DO exist. As for Barry; I never said the man was a mass-murderer, but anybody who is being accused of something as often as he has been lately should either prove his innocence or admit he is wrong, NOT make it a racial issue and call people names. Admittedly, Mariotti is a pud, but Rick Telander is well respected and he mentiones Bonds today too:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick03.html[/URL]

BONDS fights with his teammates, HIS trainer got busted for steroids, HIS name came up in this whole mess, HE has the bad rap throughout the league. MANY of his teammates, past and present, can't stand him. (Now I said MANY Mark, not ALL, so don't go look up 3 that still like him to prove your case; I admit a few still do) Yes, I am touched that Bonds misses his father; I was a big Bobby Bonds fan myself, but how does that erase years of being so disliked by his peers? He may make people around him better and he's a hell of a ball player, I went to all the Giants games at the Cell last year just to see him in fact. Doesn't mean he's not a jerk for pulling the race card out. No, every person in the world doesn't hate him, but he's not the warm and rosy character you'd like us all to think he is either.

MarkEdward
03-04-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Well, Kittle, when you're right you're right. I've heard of Devil's Advocate, but Mark Edward takes the cake. I am not going to be reduced to posting every negative article I can pull off of Google on Bonds just to prove a point, but they DO exist.

So I typed in "Barry Bonds Quote" in the Google search box. I'm through about five pages, and I have yet to find an anti-Bonds article not written by a columnist.

As for Barry; I never said the man was a mass-murderer, but anybody who is being accused of something as often as he has been lately should either prove his innocence or admit he is wrong,

Bonds: Test Me Every Day (http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories2004/sports/20040224012736.shtml)

Admittedly, Mariotti is a pud, but Rick Telander is well respected and he mentiones Bonds today too:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick03.html[/URL]

Telander's a pud. All Chicago sport's columnists are terrible. However, if you want to put an asterisk next to Bonds' stats, fine. But just to make it fair, we should probably also:
a) put an asterisk next to all pre-1947 stats, acknowledging the fact that these players only played against white talent.
b) asterisk the stats of the 60s, for there were documented cases of players using performance enhancers (greenies) at this time.

You know, just to be fair.

BONDS fights with his teammates,

That's your prerogative. For all we know, Bonds' teammates fight with him.

HIS trainer got busted for steroids,

This affects Bonds' character how?

HIS name came up in this whole mess,

Yes, because the media prematurely indicted him.

HE has the bad rap throughout the league.

Well, he is quite the ass, attending these charity events. What a bastard. (http://www.21st.com/company/pressrelease.do?type=pressrelease&ReleaseID=1666)

MANY of his teammates, past and present, can't stand him. (Now I said MANY Mark, not ALL, so don't go look up 3 that still like him to prove your case; I admit a few still do)

No offense intended, but looking at this page, it seems that more than three teammates actually liked Barry. (http://www.everwonder.com/david/bonds/quotes.htm)

No, every person in the world doesn't hate him, but he's not the warm and rosy character you'd like us all to think he is either.

Bonds is hated by the media because he's an intelligent human being, not just some everyday ballplayer who gives the same cliched quotes day after day. From all I've read about Bonds (actual stuff from teammates, not just opinions from Lupica and Bayless), he seems like a great person and a good teammate. Sure, at times he may seem distant, but that's his personality, it's what makes him unique.

The media can do a lot to tarnish a fan's view on certain players. Albert Belle is a good example. Before reading this article, think of your opinion about Belle. He was portrayed as a jerk during his career, right? Read the article, and then see if you come to a different conclusion about Belle:
http://www.ericenders.com/albertbelle.htm

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here; I honestly believe Bonds is a good person.

Kroozah
03-04-2004, 01:20 AM
Like or dislike him, but you would want him on your team.

He isn't being paid to be a nice guy, but to put butts in the seats and win.

Being the way with the media has made him bitter, not because of now, it was from the past. He grew up in a baseball family, seeing what his dad went through fighting the media in each town he had played in his career.

What ever happed to innocent until proven guilty.

Lets say he did take steroids, how does that affect the hand/eye coordination to hit the round ball and round bat to hit it square.

Kittle
03-04-2004, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Well, Kittle, when you're right you're right. I've heard of Devil's Advocate, but Mark Edward takes the cake.

MarkEdward tried to argue that steroid use in baseball is a "CBA issue" and suggested that they don't really enhance a player's ability to hit as much as we think. He's either a member of the MLBPA or somebody who really needs to get laid.

IIRC, ESPN the mag had a cover story on Bonds a year or so ago that wasn't very positive. Even casual fans know of Barry's run-ins with Jeff Kent and Shammy. Everybody here knows that the media has not portrayed Barry positively during his career. If Mr. Edward can't find a negative article on the web about Barry Bonds, he's either or liar or not trying hard enough. It's not our job to point out the obvious to him.

Jerko
03-04-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Kroozah
Like or dislike him, but you would want him on your team.

He isn't being paid to be a nice guy, but to put butts in the seats and win.

Being the way with the media has made him bitter, not because of now, it was from the past. He grew up in a baseball family, seeing what his dad went through fighting the media in each town he had played in his career.

What ever happed to innocent until proven guilty.

Lets say he did take steroids, how does that affect the hand/eye coordination to hit the round ball and round bat to hit it square.

My original point said Bonds is an idoit. I never said I didn't want him on my team, in fact, I said he was a helluva player, for a long time. I also said that I went to each Giants game when they came to play the Sox just to see him play. I agree with all that. Doesn't make him any less of an idiot. I played sports when I was younger; the best guy on our team was always the biggest jerk too. If it was baseball, our shortstop was the jerk; in football, it was me. It can happen. Innocent until proven guilty, I am not even going to comment on until Bonds takes a random test; that argument is BS unless you're on trial and the facts are being argued. As for hitting a round ball with a round bat, blah blah, which I think is the WORST of any of the "he didn't use steroid" arguemtents; he's been able to do that since he was a kid! Steroids are performance enhancers; that means you get better at things you can already do! If steroids were not a big deal, NO PLAYER, past or present, user or not, would accuse a fellow union member of using. It's just not the nature of the beast. The CLEAN guys don't want to play with the dirty guys anymore. The whole union is suffering because of this and nobody as pristine as Bonds would dare take a test to get the heat off of himself and fellow union members. Hence, Bonds is an idiot. I'd have more respect for him if he took the damn test and it came back positive than I do now for hiding behind race cards and tough talk.

Kittle
03-04-2004, 09:03 AM
If we can't prove that Bonds is a jerk because we don't know how his teammates really feel about him or that he's an idiot for lying about using steroids because that hasn't been proven in a court of law, we can say that Bonds is a jerk and an idiot for playing the race card.

Jerko
03-04-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
If we can't prove that Bonds is a jerk because we don't know how his teammates really feel about him or that he's an idiot for lying about using steroids because that hasn't been proven in a court of law, we can say that Bonds is a jerk and an idiot for playing the race card.

Thanks Kittle, I think I'm just gonna leave it at that.

jackbrohamer
03-04-2004, 09:44 AM
I remember Ed Farmer in 2001 talking about reports that Barry Bonds was receiving death threats as he approached McGwire's record. Farmer said something like "If they want to find out who's giving Bonds death threats they should check the phone records from his own clubhouse."

MarkEdward
03-04-2004, 12:31 PM
I'll attempt to keep this civil...

Originally posted by Kittle


MarkEdward tried to argue that steroid use in baseball is a "CBA issue"

Well, the owners can't unilaterally impose various practices upon the players, so yes, it is a CBA issue.

He's either a member of the MLBPA or somebody who really needs to get laid.

Resorting to Ad Hominem attacks? Oh well, if you can't refute arguments, may as well take the low road...

IIRC, ESPN the mag had a cover story on Bonds a year or so ago that wasn't very positive.

Since when has ESPN the Magazine become a bastion of journalistic integrity?

If Mr. Edward can't find a negative article on the web about Barry Bonds, he's either or liar or not trying hard enough. It's not our job to point out the obvious to him.

Well, I suppose I'm a dumbass, because I can't seem to find a lot of quotes from teammates of Barry expressing their dislike for him. I have seen various pieces of anti-Bonds sentiment from columnists, but it's their job to rake muck.

Originally posted by Kittle
If we can't prove that Bonds is a jerk because we don't know how his teammates really feel about him

Ah, but we do know how Bonds' teammates feel about him. (http://www.everwonder.com/david/bonds/quotes.htm)

Or we can just ignore this and assume Bonds is an ass because Skip Bayless says so.

Kittle
03-04-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'll attempt to keep this civil...

Well, the owners can't unilaterally impose various practices upon the players, so yes, it is a CBA issue.

Or we can just ignore this and assume Bonds is an ass because Skip Bayless says so.

(1) You make statements that are flat-out false ("we don't really know how steroids affect players") and whine when I hint that you say such things because you have nothing better to do with your time. And that makes me the bad guy? If anything, it makes you look like a crybaby.

(2) The owners have every right to maintain a drug-free work environment. If the MLBPA wants to turn steroid testing into a "CBA issue," let them strike. I'd love to see the Attorney General bring up the MLBPA on obstruction of justice charges.

(3) Bayless (and Mariotti) aren't the only ones who think that Barry's an ass. Jeff Kent and Sammy have both had public feuds with Barry in the past. And I'm sorry that you don't see ESPN the Mag as "a bastion of journalistic integrity." Sorry, but I'll take a journalist's opinion over one of Barry's teammate's. At least the former doesn't have a reason to lie. But I suppose that any argument that contradicts your own "lacks integrity," eh?

Here are a few negative pieces on Barry that I've found on the web after less than three minutes of searching. I had forgotten about the (alleged) wife-beating incident!

http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:14532401&refid=ip_almanac_hf

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life_of_reilly/

http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/sports/998718580.shtml

http://www.westword.com/issues/1995-06-14/sports.html

And you found NOTHING on Google? Wow, you must not have been trying that hard...

Kroozah
03-04-2004, 12:59 PM
Bonds is not part of the MLBPA, though he could take the test without scrutiny, but he won't that would betray the other players that actually are part of MLBPA.

I am glad you saw Bonds play for three games, and whatever on the flubs network, but here in the bay area, we get to see, read and hear about Bonds, etc.

Kittle
03-04-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Kroozah
Bonds is not part of the MLBPA, though he could take the test without scrutiny, but he won't that would betray the other players that actually are part of MLBPA.

Not if he's not a member of their union. If he has nothing to hide and no union to restrict him, there's nothing keeping him from clearing his name.

SEALgep
03-04-2004, 01:03 PM
Come on guys, if he was using steroids, don't you think we would be able to tell. :D:

MarkEdward
03-04-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
(1) You make statements that are flat-out false ("we don't really know how steroids affect players") and whine when I hint that you say such things because you have nothing better to do with your time. And that makes me the bad guy? If anything, it makes you look like a crybaby.

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how I have come off as I "crybaby" in any of our discussions. In this thread, Jerko and I were arguing about Bonds' personality. You then come into the thread, saying that I "really need to get laid" just because I have adamantly defended one of my favorite players. Again, I can't see how this comment isn't an Ad Hominem attack. With your "laid" comment, you're attacking me and not my arguments.

I don't know if anyone else has been following this thread, but I'll ask a question to any third party: have I come off sounding like a crybaby in this thread? I really don't think I have, but if I did so, I apologize. I can get a little angry when one of my favorite players is continuously ridiculed.

(2) The owners have every right to maintain a drug-free work environment. If the MLBPA wants to turn steroid testing into a "CBA issue," let them strike. I'd love to see the Attorney General bring up the MLBPA on obstruction of justice charges.

Well, I wouldn't say the owners have a right, but that's semantics. However, the owners should care about the health and well-being of the players, for both financial and humanitarian reasons. So it is up to both the owners and players to work out a system in which both the players are safe, as long as it doesn't infringe in their right to privacy. I see no reason why this shouldn't be a CBA issue.

Daver: I know you are very familiar with collective bargaining in general. Am I missing something here? Isn't testing a CBA issue?

(3) Bayless (and Mariotti) aren't the only ones who think that Barry's an ass. Jeff Kent and Sammy have both had public feuds with Barry in the past.

First, when was Sosa a teammate of Bonds, All Star games notwithstanding?

Second, of course, some people will most likely not like Bonds. We all have enemies. We don't get along with everyone we work with.

And I'm sorry that you don't see ESPN the Mag as "a bastion of journalistic integrity." Sorry, but I'll take a journalist's opinion over one of Barry's teammate's.

Well, now you and Jerko seem to be moving targets in this debate. A few posts back, Jerko posted that most of Bonds' teammates hated him. I provided evidence showing that many of Bonds' teammates enjoyed playing with him. Now you seem to be implying that we should disregard these players' comments. May I ask why? For seven months out of the year, a team is like a family. Teammates eat, work, play, and room with one another. If anyone knows about a player's personality, I'm sure it would be a teammate.

Journalists, on the other hand, are a very fickle sort. They spend about 20 minutes with the player each day. Obviously, as journalists, these writers must fill out game stories. So after a game, they'll usually head down to the clubhouse to ask some questions. Some players, especially after a tough loss, will not enjoy talking with the media. Barry Bonds fills the archetype of one of these players. Therefore, these journalists will be left with no quotes to fill in for their reports. I can even see reporters becoming frustrated with this behavior, even developing a feud with certain players. See what I'm trying to get at here?

Here's another view of reporters, from Eric Enders:
Let’s set one thing straight right here: Whether to give interviews is a personal choice. Granted, most players do give at least a few, but it’s completely up to them. There are all kinds of perfectly legitimate reasons for players to decline interviews, not the least of which is that the things they say often end up distorted when reduced to four-second sound bites on TV or sentence-long quotes in the newspaper. A player might have a dinner reservation, or he might feel like going to the movies, or, for chrissakes, he might just want to go home and see his kids. Should we really expect him to stick around so some guy wearing a grimy sports jacket and a polo shirt he didn’t pay for can ask the player why he struck out three times?

In summation, I find your argument that journalists understand a certain player more than his teammates flawed, at best.

At least the former doesn't have a reason to lie.

Columnists certainly have a reason to lie. They do it everyday. Go to Baseball Primer and check out the Clutch Hits section. Every day, beat writers and columnists alike are dragged over the coals. You won't believe the inaccuracies that they sometime spew. Skip Bayless once referred to the stat OPS as runs batted in subtracted from runs and home runs.

Also, a columnist's job is, as I said before, to rake muck. They're used to sell papers, nothing more, nothing less. In a perfect world, there'd be no need for sports' columnists. Reporters report facts; columnists convolute facts to fit in with their argument.

But I suppose that any argument that contradicts your own "lacks integrity," eh?

Have I said this somewhere before?

Here are a few negative pieces on Barry that I've found on the web after less than three minutes of searching. I had forgotten about the (alleged) wife-beating incident!
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:14532401&refid=ip_almanac_hf

Yes, those charges (according to the article) seemed to have been dropped. Making him innocent. How does this affect his character?

Jarrod Washburn was accused of sleeping with an under aged girl. Those charges were later dropped by the girl. Does this affect Washburn's character at all?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2001/08/21/life_of_reilly/

Reilly is a columnist, and a bad one at that. I'm sure he spends very little time with Barry (unless you can point to evidence to the contrary). Once again, you'd really take his opinion over the guys that Barry has played with?

Anyway, this piece is trash. Let's look at Rick's arguments:
1) Bonds didn't show up for the team picture: The horror! I mean, he couldn't have had prior obligations or anything like that. Nah, let's just assume he's an introverted jerk.
2) Bonds doesn't stretch with the team: Again, the horror! Sticking to a regimented workout. The bastard! Trying to make himself better, pshaw.
3) Bonds doesn't ride with the team: Again, so what? Maybe he enjoys the company of his manager. Maybe he has lots of friends in broadcasting.
4) Bonds' nutritionist brings in special meals for him: Yeah, damn that Barry for wanting to stay healthy!
5) Bonds has his own public relations man: I think when you're a big of a star as Barry is, you would have your own P.R. guy. To me, it would just make things easier.
6) Bonds hangs out by himself instead of playing cards with teammates: Is there something wrong with being an introvert?
7) After a Giant win, Bonds left the clubhouse early, slighting reporters: Again, maybe he had another commitment?

The rest of the article is conjectural blather, with no real facts, only Rick's opinion.

http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/sports/998718580.shtml

Again, a column with little factual input. He says Bonds is a great player, then calls him a jerk. The only player quote is from Kent. The rest is Hendrickson's opinion. I found the McVeigh line quite disturbing. I also found this funny. Remember, this was written in 2001. From the article:
It doesn’t matter in San Francisco. It also doesn’t matter that Bonds won’t be there next season.
Funny, it's 2004, and Bonds is still in San Francisco! Hell, he's even carried his team to a World Series. Hell, in 2003, his team had the best record in the NL. I don't know about you, but Bonds sure has been a detriment to his team!

http://www.westword.com/issues/1995-06-14/sports.html

Wow, from 1995. The summation of this article: Bonds misplays a fly ball, tells off the media after the game. Therefore, he's an jerk.

And you found NOTHING on Google? Wow, you must not have been trying that hard...

Well, I was looking for fact-based evidence, like actual accounts from players. In all the columns you cited, I only saw one player quoted: Jeff Kent. I don't know about you, but I just need to see more to convince me of Bonds' alleged hatred of others.

Kittle
03-05-2004, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Columnists certainly have a reason to lie.

Columnists have less of a reason to lie than players do regarding their own teammates. I'd be willing to bet that players hide the truth regarding their true feelings towards their teammates much more so than journalists. The reason? Barry's teammates have to go to work with him every day. Guys like Mariotti and Reilly don't and can say whatever they want with few or no consequences. Wouldn't you be more apt to say something nasty about somebody way out on the West Coast than somebody who you have to talk to at work every day? If it's a "columnist's job to rake muck," it's even more a player's job to protect his teammate. Apparently Jeff Kent wasn't into protecting Barry's image in the media:

Jeff Kent voiced the concerns of every Giant when he told Sports Illustrated columnist Rick Reilly that Bonds “does a lot of questionable things. But you get used to it. Sometimes it rubs the younger guys the wrong way, and sometimes it rubs the veterans the wrong way. You just hope he shows up for the game and performs. I’ve learned not to worry about it or think about it or analyze it.”

Actions speak louder than words and Barry's shouting match and ensuing fistfight with Jeff Kent in the dugout a couple years ago is pretty difficult to ignore. Apparently one of Barry's teammates disliked him enough to throw a punch at him during a game. In all my years of playing sports, I've hated a number of teammates but never got into a fight with any of them, not even behind closed doors. And then there was his feud with Sammy during the following Spring Training. Sammy's not even on his team and can't stand him.

Why is it that Barry is portrayed so overwhelmingly negatively in the media while guys like Sammy aren't? Hell, even the anti-Sox Tribune doesn't make Frank look NEARLY as bad as Barry. Seems strange that they'd just pick on Barry for no reason, doesn't it?

1) Bonds didn't show up for the team picture: The horror! I mean, he couldn't have had prior obligations or anything like that. Nah, let's just assume he's an introverted jerk.
2) Bonds doesn't stretch with the team: Again, the horror! Sticking to a regimented workout. The bastard! Trying to make himself better, pshaw.
3) Bonds doesn't ride with the team: Again, so what? Maybe he enjoys the company of his manager. Maybe he has lots of friends in broadcasting.
4) Bonds' nutritionist brings in special meals for him: Yeah, damn that Barry for wanting to stay healthy!
5) Bonds has his own public relations man: I think when you're a big of a star as Barry is, you would have your own P.R. guy. To me, it would just make things easier.
6) Bonds hangs out by himself instead of playing cards with teammates: Is there something wrong with being an introvert?
7) After a Giant win, Bonds left the clubhouse early, slighting reporters: Again, maybe he had another commitment?

(1), (2), (3), and (7) clearly show that Bonds isn't a team player. I can let the others slide, but there's absolutely no reason that Bonds can't participate in the team photo (he missed it at least two years in a row), stretch with the team (he can work out on his own), ride with the team (they ride as a team for a reason), and talk to reporters after the game. Those four points clearly show that Barry thinks that he's above the team. Quoting Jeff Kent:

"I was raised to be a team guy, and I am, but Barry's Barry."

You're a Bonds fan? Here's what he thinks of his fans:

"I don't care what they think," the best player in baseball said of the fans who pay his salary. "They ain't out there. They don't really know what's going on out there. If they can do better, bring your ass out there. If you're better than me, you can come out there and put my uniform on and do it."

So, let's see. Most of the journalists think that Barry's a jackass, he got into a brawl with one of his own teammates on camera a couple years ago, he allegedly beat his wife in '93 (and the two were divorced after that), he hasn't participated in his team's photo for at least two years, he doesn't travel or stretch with his teammates, doesn't talk to the press, has been named in a steroid distribution ring, and when asked about steroid use, played the race card.

Yeah, Barry's a great guy. And monkeys will fly out of my ass this morning.

MarkEdward
03-06-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
Columnists have less of a reason to lie than players do regarding their own teammates. I'd be willing to bet that players hide the truth regarding their true feelings towards their teammates much more so than journalists. The reason? Barry's teammates have to go to work with him every day.

Good point. However, it's not like we're any seeing of Bonds' former teammates, who having nothing to lose by spilling their guts, spew hatred about the guy. Heck, Rich Aurilia is no longer a teammate of Bonds, and he was standing up for the guy just a few days ago. Bobby Valentine has done the same.

Again, I did not begin the "Bonds' teammates hate him" angle of the debate. Jerko did. I asked for proof, he found very little.


Guys like Mariotti and Reilly don't and can say whatever they want with few or no consequences. Wouldn't you be more apt to say something nasty about somebody way out on the West Coast than somebody who you have to talk to at work every day?

Exactly my point. Columnists have no consequences for their actions, so I believe that they would be more prone to bend the truth.

Actions speak louder than words and Barry's shouting match and ensuing fistfight with Jeff Kent in the dugout a couple years ago is pretty difficult to ignore. Apparently one of Barry's teammates disliked him enough to throw a punch at him during a game.

Well, so far, the only player that you've been able to find that speaks of hatred toward Bonds is Kent. Meanwhile, I have found quotes from Dusty Baker, Jay Bell, Angel Figueroa, Mike Devereaux, Ed Farmer, Tommy Sandt, Jim Brock, Peter Magowan, Jeff Brantley, Mike Shannon, Dave Stevens, Ray McDonald, Dave Canziani, Bob McKercher, Ken Griffey Jr., Tony Gwynn, Matt Williams, Jose Rijo, and Jim Leyland all portraying Barry in a positive light.

Also, wasn't Kent the one who threw the punch at Bonds? Hm, maybe Kent's the one with the attitude problem?

And then there was his feud with Sammy during the following Spring Training. Sammy's not even on his team and can't stand him.

IIRC, by the end of Spring Training 2003, Bonds and Sosa were laughing it up together. I'll try to find confirmation on that.

Why is it that Barry is portrayed so overwhelmingly negatively in the media while guys like Sammy aren't?

Because Sosa is extremely friendly to the media. He'll also give an interview, he's always there to give a quotable quote. Bonds can sometimes come off as being stand-offish with the media, therefore they will portray him in a bad light.

Hell, even the anti-Sox Tribune doesn't make Frank look NEARLY as bad as Barry. Seems strange that they'd just pick on Barry for no reason, doesn't it?

Currently, I'm reading "Babe" by Robert Creamer. By 1921, Babe Ruth was extremely popular. Yet, some fans continued to boo him, and the media would sometimes criticize him for very small things. Here's a good quote from one of the writers at the time, explaining the alleged disdain for Ruth: "If there is one thing that pleases the American public more than cheering a hero when he is elevated, it is jeering him when he fails." 50 years later, Mark Spitz would add this quote: "American people love heroes, and they love to tear them down, then build them up again." Whenever you're the top dog, you're always going to get some criticism, no matter how petty.

(1), (2), (3), and (7) clearly show that Bonds isn't a team player. I can let the others slide, but there's absolutely no reason that Bonds can't participate in the team photo (he missed it at least two years in a row),

Well, we don't know why he missed those photo shoots. Maybe he had a family crisis. By early 2003, his father's health was beginning to deteriorate. Maybe he wanted to stay by his side. Point is, you can't just assume he missed the photo just because he is a bad teammate.

stretch with the team (he can work out on his own),

Barry sticks to a strict workout regimen. That's what makes him Barry Bonds. To stay in top physical condition, I could see why he'd need his own trainer.

ride with the team (they ride as a team for a reason),

Maybe he enjoys the company of coaches over his teammates once in a while. I don't see how that makes him a terrible person.

and talk to reporters after the game.

Like I posted before, talking with reporters is not an obligation. Bonds' obligation is to play baseball to the best of his abilities. Nothing more, nothing less.

If I was in Barry's position, I'd much rather hang out with family and friends over answering pointless questions from a reporter.

Those four points clearly show that Barry thinks that he's above the team. Quoting Jeff Kent:

Kent again? Maybe he's the one with the attitude problem. For what it's worth, Barry Bonds isn't the player that has been traded three times in his career.



You're a Bonds fan? Here's what he thinks of his fans:

I see nothing wrong with the quote. Maybe he was being a bit too blunt, but it's not like he wasn't telling the truth. Bonds doesn't need to care what the fans think of him. As spectators, we *don't* know what's going on out there. We are not in Barry's shoes.

he allegedly beat his wife in '93 (and the two were divorced after that),

Why do you keep bringing this up? The charges were dropped. He is innocent.

played the race card.

And if you followed the rest of the quote, you'd see that he was joking. He followed it up by mockingly shouting "I'm being harassed" while reporter Pedro Gomez came over to chat with him.

Kroozah
03-07-2004, 01:49 AM
Kent's a shining example, riding his motorc.. I mean washing his truck and slipping fracturing his wrist being on the DL for part of a season.. team player

Kittle
03-07-2004, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

Also, wasn't Kent the one who threw the punch at Bonds? Hm, maybe Kent's the one with the attitude problem?

So, Barry won't travel, stretch, and pose in the team photo with his teammates, yet Kent's the problem? Was Kent the one who smacked Barry's wife around so badly that she called the police?

It's a hell of a lot easier to find positive quotes from current and ex-teammates and coaches in the press. Players and coaches typically don't call each other out through the press. It's an unwritten rule that that type of criticism is kept in the clubhouse. It seems to me that Kent doesn't give a crap about that rule and says whatever he wants (and what others won't).

Your excuses for Barry's behavior are weak. Barry can't stretch with the team because of his "strict workout regimen?" What the hell does that have to do with his pre-game warmup? I have no problem with Barry working with a personal trainer during his free time, but there's no excuse for him ditching his teammates for pre-game stretching. When he's wearing a Giants uniform, he's obligated for follow their rules, not his. He missed the team photo because his father was ill? This was a few years ago (when he wasn't THAT ill) and he missed it two years in a row. What's your excuse now? Barry's "innocent" after kicking his ex-wife and grabbing her around the neck? Are you saying that she made it all up? Why would she do that?

I'll bet you think Albert Belle's "misunderstood" as well.

You can go ahead and live in your fantasy world where Barry's a great guy. I'm sorry that I won't be there to see the look on your face when Barry's indicted for purchasing steroids from BALCO.

Have a nice day.

MarkEdward
03-07-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
So, Barry won't travel, stretch, and pose in the team photo with his teammates, yet Kent's the problem? Was Kent the one who smacked Barry's wife around so badly that she called the police?

Over the past few years, I have had many discussions about Bonds with people like yourself. They have accused Bonds of being cocky, not a good sport, and being a bad team player. I totally disagree with these assertions, but I usually just let them slide. People like yourself have bought in to the media's view of Bonds, and while that stance may be utterly illogical, I can at least understand.

You, however, are the first person to CONTINUOUSLY bring up this confrontation with his ex-wife. Once, again, and I'm sorry for screaming, but this seems like the only way I'll get through to you: THE CHARGES WERE DROPPED. You have no right to accuse Bonds of beating another human being. The case didn't even make it to a court of law. He was exonerated of all charges. Why can't you seem to understand that?

Oh, and like Kroozah has posted, Jeff Kent is a bloody bastion of integrity and honesty. Let's just ignore his little arm injury last. God knows washing a car can be dangerous stuff!

It's a hell of a lot easier to find positive quotes from current and ex-teammates and coaches in the press. Players and coaches typically don't call each other out through the press. It's an unwritten rule that that type of criticism is kept in the clubhouse. It seems to me that Kent doesn't give a crap about that rule and says whatever he wants (and what others won't).

Wow, I must say I'm extremely impressed. I mean, it's amazing how you can understand the psyche of professional athletes. I suppose you're good friends with a lot of Bonds' former teammates, who are just hiding their true feelings for him. I mean, you're not just assuming that they hate him, right? I mean, you wouldn't be dishonest, correct?

Once again, a quick review of this thread. Jerko asserts that Bonds teammates hate him. I ask him to find me proof. He finds extremely little. I found a lot of quotes on the contrary. Now you're arguing that we shouldn't take teammates' quotes into account because they won't tell the truth. Moving targets is not a good way to debate.

Your excuses for Barry's behavior are weak. Barry can't stretch with the team because of his "strict workout regimen?" What the hell does that have to do with his pre-game warmup? I have no problem with Barry working with a personal trainer during his free time, but there's no excuse for him ditching his teammates for pre-game stretching.

Have you seen pre-game workouts? Half-assed jogging, toe touches, and some jumping jacks. Barry Bonds is Barry Bonds because of his regimen. Gary Sheffield worked out with Bonds one off-season, and he had to quit because the workouts were just too hard for Gary.

When he's wearing a Giants uniform, he's obligated for follow their rules, not his.

I'm always interested in the inner-workings of ball clubs. So, since you seem to be familiar with Giants' team rules, could you post them here? I mean, I just think it would be cool to see.

Oh, you're not just assuming you know the team rules, right?

He missed the team photo because his father was ill? This was a few years ago (when he wasn't THAT ill) and he missed it two years in a row.

Bobby Bonds had had cancer for quite a few years leading up to his death.

What's your excuse now? Barry's "innocent" after kicking his ex-wife and grabbing her around the neck? Are you saying that she made it all up? Why would she do that?

Well, if he did it, why didn't she go forward with the case?


I'll bet you think Albert Belle's "misunderstood" as well.

Oh yeah, Albert Belle's a bastard too:
But there is sufficient reason to believe that Albert Belle is also a good guy, or at least an interesting one. He has been described by those who know him as a nice, even “sweet” person when not in the presence of journalists. His work ethic has never been questioned; even his detractors admit that he has been one of baseball’s hardest-working players and most intense competitors. He has confronted and apparently defeated alcoholism. In a baseball world dominated by back-stabbing player agents, Belle’s agent is his twin brother, Terry. Belle helps kids learn baseball and gives money to scholarship funds, although he doesn’t let Terry publicize these actions. In a profession where the sports pages are considered high literature, Belle, who graduated fourth in his high school class, is a literate and intelligent man. He plays chess. He enjoys writing. He has penned columns for his website and for the Baltimore Sun, and wrote regularly for a small independent newspaper, The Baltimore Press. His first column for the Press was about teachers being underpaid and underappreciated. Inside sources report that unlike most writing by ballplayers, Belle’s columns are not ghostwritten. In 1998 Belle wrote a Christmas poem to Orioles fans, wishing them the best for the upcoming season. Albert Belle is an Eagle Scout, for chrissakes. Literally. Troop Nine in Shreveport, Louisiana. You could look it up.

Do you buy into everything the media spoon feeds to you?

I apologize for the overall my overall anger in this post. I'm on my way out of the house now, so I'll come by later to clear anything I may have unclear in this post. Cheers.

jackbrohamer
03-07-2004, 02:10 PM
So your point is that unless we personally observe a player acting like a jerk, we are not entitled to rely on published accounts of his behavior and conclude that he is a jerk. Which basically precludes me from concluding that any player is a jerk. Or any famous person whom I have not observed first hand. So all famous people must be nice guys.

MarkEdward
03-07-2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer
So your point is that unless we personally observe a player acting like a jerk, we are not entitled to rely on published accounts of his behavior and conclude that he is a jerk. Which basically precludes me from concluding that any player is a jerk. Or any famous person whom I have not observed first hand. So all famous people must be nice guys.

Well, you're allowed to assume whatever you want. However, most of the "Bonds is a jerk" articles come from columnists who enjoy making trouble. From all account, Bonds is a very intelligent guy, an extremely hard worker, and a good teammate.

I've used this reference a lot, but here's a page that shows Bonds in a positive light. All the of the quotes are from current or former teammates, so these are primary sources for information:
http://www.everwonder.com/david/bonds/quotes.htm

Or you could just ignore all this and take Mariotti's idiotic word for it. YMMV.

jackbrohamer
03-07-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I've used this reference a lot, but here's a page that shows Bonds in a positive light. All the of the quotes are from current or former teammates, so these are primary sources for information:
http://www.everwonder.com/david/bonds/quotes.htm.

The quotes almost all relate to his abilities as a ballplayer rather than as a human being. He is clearly the best ballplayer of his generation, IMHO, although I'm very skeptical about how he got there

Kittle
03-11-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward


Oh yeah, Albert Belle's a bastard too:


Do you buy into everything the media spoon feeds to you?


No, I make objective decisions based on evidence. You, on the other hand, conveniently overlook evidence that doesn't support the squeaky-clean mental image that you've constructed and have the ridiculous notion that all of the negative reports about players like Bonds and Belle are fictional media-fabricated "muck."

This is the same Albert Belle that was in court in '98 after being accused of beating up his girlfriend. And the same Albert Belle that former teammates Omar Vizquel and Paul Sorrento say corked all of his bats. So, he's an accused woman-beater and a cheater. Sounds like a great guy.

Barry may be a nice guy behind closed doors, but it's painfully obvious to me that (1) he's NOT a team player and (2) there's strong evidence that he purchased and used steroids during his career. You'll have to forgive me for not liking that type of player.

surfdudes
03-11-2004, 10:23 AM
Just for wearing that 5 pound kevlar elbow protector and almost standing on home plate tell you what I think of Bonds. Add to it the whole comfy chair semi private locker room, and I need no other observations, press, or opinions to tell me how self absorbed this a-hole is. After Jeff Kent's comments about Ruth and Gerig using performance enhancers and why they weren't tested, and his injury a few years back that happened when he fell off his truck while washing it, leads me to believe he is just a moron.

jabrch
03-11-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


that picture of Daroids was AWESOME! Well done WU!

Kittle
03-11-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Just for wearing that 5 pound kevlar elbow protector and almost standing on home plate tell you what I think of Bonds. Add to it the whole comfy chair semi private locker room, and I need no other observations, press, or opinions to tell me how self absorbed this a-hole is.

... and top that off with the fact that Bonds won't pose with his teammates and coaches in the team photo, won't stretch with his teammates, and the police showed up to his home on a domestic violence call.

I find it amazing that Barry's fans make up excuse after pathetic excuse to justify his behavior.

MarkEdward
03-11-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
No, I make objective decisions based on evidence.

Well, you seem to be ignoring a lot of evidence showing that Belle wasn't a bad person.

You, on the other hand, conveniently overlook evidence that doesn't support the squeaky-clean mental image that you've constructed and have the ridiculous notion that all of the negative reports about players like Bonds and Belle are fictional media-fabricated "muck."

I understand that Belle has done some less-than-noble things in his life, but he has also done some very good things. Reading Eric Enders' story, I came to the conclusion that he is a pretty decent human who has had some past troubles.

This is the same Albert Belle that was in court in '98 after being accused of beating up his girlfriend.

From what I remember, he was accused of this act, but not found guilty. Big difference there.

And the same Albert Belle that former teammates Omar Vizquel and Paul Sorrento say corked all of his bats. So, he's an accused woman-beater and a cheater. Sounds like a great guy.

Once again, your opinion is based on accusations. Wait, before, you stated "I make objective decisions based on evidence." Which one is it- opinions based on accusations or fact?

Anyway, let's look at some facts:
1) Many personal friends of Belle see Albert as a "nice" and "sweet" person.
2) Even opponents of Belle believe he was one of the hardest workers in baseball.
3) He defeated alcoholism, a terrible and debilitating disease.
4) Belle's twin brother is also his agent.
5) Albert graduated fourth in his high school class; he plays chess.
6) He's written columns for many newspapers. In one article, he wrote about how teachers were under appreciated and under payed.
7) Belle wrote a Christmas poem to Orioles' season ticket holders, wishing them a happy holiday season.
8) He's an Eagle Scout.

Just wanted to toss some facts out there, since you make objective decisions based on evidence.

Barry may be a nice guy behind closed doors, but it's painfully obvious to me that (1) he's NOT a team player

Again, this is based on hearsay and accusations from various columnists. We have piles of evidence (from Bonds' former or current teammates) showing that Barry's a decent guy. I'm only able to find one player that seems to dislike him, that being Jeff Kent.

sas1974
03-11-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Again, this is based on hearsay and accusations from various columnists. We have piles of evidence (from Bonds' former or current teammates) showing that Barry's a decent guy. I'm only able to find one player that seems to dislike him, that being Jeff Kent.

I would venture to guess that Turk Wendell is not a big fan of his either if he openly accused him of using steroids.

jackbrohamer
03-11-2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I understand that Belle has done some less-than-noble things in his life, but he has also done some very good things.


Sheesh are you understating the facts to make your point. When you refer to his "less-than-noble things" I assume you are referring to things like his domestic abuse arrest, his arrest in Cleveland for chasing Trick-or-Treaters in his SUV, firing baseballs at fans in stands during games, using corked bats, verbally and physically abusing fans in the minor leagues, etc.? If you cherry pick reports on his behavior to find a couple positive things, that means he's not a bad guy?

Kittle
03-11-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I understand that Belle has done some less-than-noble things in his life, but he has also done some very good things. Reading Eric Enders' story, I came to the conclusion that he is a pretty decent human who has had some past troubles.


That's an understatement.

So, we're to praise Belle for being intelligent, doing crossword puzzles, and defeating alcoholism (stemming from irresponsible behavior on his part)? Well, I won't argue that Belle doesn't have redeeming qualities, but just about everybody does.

It's a known fact that Belle corked his bat at least once (Sorrento admitted that he lied for him). And Belle's has been found guilty and convicted of violent crimes before the incident in '98...

http://www.oobleck.com/orioles/general/oslaw.html

THERE'S your evidence.

I can't wait for your next excuse...

MarkEdward
03-11-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by jackbrohamer

Sheesh are you understating the facts to make your point. When you refer to his "less-than-noble things" I assume you are referring to things like his domestic abuse arrest, his arrest in Cleveland for chasing Trick-or-Treaters in his SUV, firing baseballs at fans in stands during games, using corked bats, verbally and physically abusing fans in the minor leagues, etc.? If you cherry pick reports on his behavior to find a couple positive things, that means he's not a bad guy?

Well, I don't think I was understating his past transgressions, and if I was, I apologize. I never said he was a perfect human being. He has had his problems. But he does have some redeeming qualities. It's too bad we never hear about the good stuff in the papers...


Originally posted by Kittle

That's an understatement.
So, we're to praise Belle for being intelligent, doing crossword puzzles, and defeating alcoholism (stemming from irresponsible behavior on his part)? Well, I won't argue that Belle doesn't have redeeming qualities, but just about everybody does.

Well, I don't think Belle's actions resulted in his alcoholism. I think, on the contrary, some of his problems stem from alcoholism. From what I know, alcoholism is a disease. I don't think Belle caused his alcohol problems; most likely, his disease was inherited.

It's a known fact that Belle corked his bat at least once (Sorrento admitted that he lied for him). And Belle's has been found guilty and convicted of violent crimes before the incident in '98...
http://www.oobleck.com/orioles/general/oslaw.html
THERE'S your evidence.
I can't wait for your next excuse...

Like I said, he's not a perfect human being. He seems to have anger management issues, as well as an extremely short temper.

Here's my point in regards to Belle: we've heard the bad things about him. Did we ever hear the good things? Before my posts, did you know Belle was an Eagle Scout, that he was an intelligent person, or that he was active in social issues? My point isn't to paint Belle as a virtuous human being. My point is to show that the media, when given the chance, will always show an athlete in a dark light. I'm not saying they shouldn't report the bad things, but I would like to see more positive articles on athletes.

Kittle
03-12-2004, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
.Well, I don't think Belle's actions resulted in his alcoholism. I think, on the contrary, some of his problems stem from alcoholism. From what I know, alcoholism is a disease. I don't think Belle caused his alcohol problems; most likely, his disease was inherited.

LOL! Yeah, I'm sure that all crackheads are free from blame from their addictions as well. Let's blame it all on genetics!

Studies have shown that there is some genetic propensity towards alcohol and drug addiction. However, Belle DID NOT "inherit" his alcoholism in the same way that, say, a woman develops ovarian cancer (which has a very strong genetic basis) while living a healthy lifestyle. Belle became an alcoholic because he drank irresponsibly. Period.

Your never-ending excuses are pathetic.

Here's my point in regards to Belle: we've heard the bad things about him. Did we ever hear the good things? Before my posts, did you know Belle was an Eagle Scout, that he was an intelligent person, or that he was active in social issues? My point isn't to paint Belle as a virtuous human being. My point is to show that the media, when given the chance, will always show an athlete in a dark light. I'm not saying they shouldn't report the bad things, but I would like to see more positive articles on athletes.

This may be surprisng to you, but I did know about those things. I read about Belle being and Eagle Scout in one of the Chicago papers during those two years that he played with the Sox. I also know that he does his crossword puzzles in pen (from reading a newspaper column). I've read (again, in a newspaper column) that he regularly donates to charities. I've looked at his website, where he provides links to scholarship programs for minorities. Yeah, Albert Belle does a lot of nice things. And it's not difficult to find some of these positive comments in your local newspaper's sports section.

But guess what? Belle's been arrested three times and twice convicted of violent crimes. All of his good deeds don't change the fact that he's a violent, woman-beating *******.

MarkEdward
03-12-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
LOL! Yeah, I'm sure that all crackheads are free from blame from their addictions as well. Let's blame it all on genetics!
Studies have shown that there is some genetic propensity towards alcohol and drug addiction. However, Belle DID NOT "inherit" his alcoholism in the same way that, say, a woman develops ovarian cancer (which has a very strong genetic basis) while living a healthy lifestyle. Belle became an alcoholic because he drank irresponsibly. Period.
Your never-ending excuses are pathetic.

Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. Belle's alcoholism is most likely not 100% genetic. However, I do believe that there were some genetic factors involved. I, for one, don't know anything about his family's history, so it's hard to know where to assign the blame, so to speak. I will say that Belle's problem with alcohol probably led to some of his altercations.

But guess what? Belle's been arrested three times and twice convicted of violent crimes. All of his good deeds don't change the fact that he's a violent, woman-beating *******.

And, as long as you know all facts (which you seem to do), it's fine to hold that opinion about him.

sas1974
03-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

But that Bonds sure is an idiot. I bet you guys can agree on that. :D:

Kittle
03-12-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. Belle's alcoholism is most likely not 100% genetic. However, I do believe that there were some genetic factors involved. I, for one, don't know anything about his family's history, so it's hard to know where to assign the blame, so to speak. I will say that Belle's problem with alcohol probably led to some of his altercations.

His alcoholism very well may have lead to some of those altercations, but that DOES NOT exonerate him from blame. One cannot hold his or her alcohol/drug problem accountable for socially irresponsible behavior. Accountability lies on the individual, not the addiction.