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otis
02-27-2004, 08:24 AM
In the aftermath of the AROD trade to the Yankees, the Red Sox tried to match by acquring Frank Thomas. The Red Sox offered Johnny Damon And David Ortiz for Big Frank and Aaron Rowand. They even offered to exchange Scott Williamson with Billy Koch to help balance out the money. KW declined, saying that he was not interested in trading Frank without getting starting pitching in return and that he feels good about the team right now. This conversation took place about a week ago. Nothing too earth shocking , but I thought it was interesting to share. I guess you could argue the WSox would be a better team by making the trade, but I am kind of glad Kenny didn't pull th trigger.

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 08:31 AM
Welcome back Otis, and thanks for the inside information.

I'm glad to see KW doesn't let his unprofessional hatred for FT interfere with his perceived value of what Thomas means to this team. I wonder if FT would have waived his 10 and 5 rights to play in Boston?

Frater Perdurabo
02-27-2004, 08:35 AM
Hmmm. I'm glad he didn't pull the trigger. But I wonder, if the Red Sox were that desperate, did Kenny try to convince the Red Sox to take Konerko instead of Frank, and they could keep Ortiz? Maybe this should be in deeppink?

That way, the deal would have been Konerko, Rowand and Koch for Damon and Williamson.

Dadawg_77
02-27-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Hmmm. I'm glad he didn't pull the trigger. But I wonder, if the Red Sox were that desperate, did Kenny try to convince the Red Sox to take Konerko instead of Frank, and they could keep Ortiz? Maybe this should be in deeppink?

That way, the deal would have been Konerko, Rowand and Koch for Damon and Williamson.

Why do people equate Thomas with Konerko.


Thomas' level of play


















































































Konerko's level of play.

No smart team would view those two as interchangeable.

BeerHandle
02-27-2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by otis
In the aftermath of the AROD trade to the Yankees, the Red Sox tried to match by acquring Frank Thomas. The Red Sox offered Johnny Damon And David Ortiz for Big Frank and Aaron Rowand. They even offered to exchange Scott Williamson with Billy Koch to help balance out the money. KW declined, saying that he was not interested in trading Frank without getting starting pitching in return and that he feels good about the team right now. This conversation took place about a week ago. Nothing too earth shocking , but I thought it was interesting to share. I guess you could argue the WSox would be a better team by making the trade, but I am kind of glad Kenny didn't pull th trigger.

Otis returns........how did you hear about this?

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Why do people equate Thomas with Konerko.


Perhaps we need a degree in economics from Harvard to understand why? :?:

Mickster
02-27-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
Otis returns........how did you hear about this?

Never ask him to give up sources! :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
02-27-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Why do people equate Thomas with Konerko.

No smart team would view those two as interchangeable.

Smart people sometimes do dumb things when they are desperate. Perhaps Theo Epstein was desperate.

Of course I don't equate Frank and Konerko either. But I at least want the Sox GM to try to exploit another team's desperate situation, especially when they are the ones calling you!

So, if Otis is right (and I have no reason to doubt him), Theo Epstein calls KW and offers Damon, Ortiz and Williamson for Frank, Rowand and Koch. KW thinks about it for a minute, or an hour, and says "thanks but no thanks, I'm happy with my team."

Instead of rejecting the idea of a trade outright, how about saying: "We really like Frank, but can we interest you in the first baseman who had two RBI doubles in the 2002 All Star Game, and who plays better defense at first? I won't even ask for Ortiz in return. How about it, Theo, do we have a deal?"

That's all I'm asking. At least try.... (Maybe he did try and we'll never know. But I hope that KW at least tried.)

StepsInSC
02-27-2004, 09:27 AM
I'm really glad to hear this especially following all the utter crap that was circulating the boards regarding Thomas. Combined w/ the photos from Tuscon, I'm really starting to get excited about the season.

Kittle
02-27-2004, 09:29 AM
I'm glad it was shot down. I wouldn't trade Frank for anything but a solid starter or a stud closer.

wdelaney72
02-27-2004, 09:31 AM
That would have been a huge mistake. I'm glad Kenny didn't take it.

Welcome Back, Otis!

SSN721
02-27-2004, 10:01 AM
Very glad that this was shot down. It somewhat dispels my thought of the deperation of Kenny to get rid of Frank at almost any cost just becasue he didnt like him. I do agree with the point we should have taken a shot at offering Konerko for less and see if Boston would bite, nothing wrong with taking a chance. And thanks for coming back and giving the info Otis. Always enjoy the info you bring to these boards. :D:

CubKilla
02-27-2004, 10:09 AM
Wow! I guess I'm the only one that would have been all over this trade.

Damon/Rowand..... definite CF upgrade
Thomas/Ortiz..... comparable DH's at this point IMHO
Williamson/Botch..... enough said. IMHO, we can't get rid of Botch fast enough

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Wow! I guess I'm the only one that would have been all over this trade.

Damon/Rowand..... definite CF upgrade

Yeah, but at a price tag of 8 million more than Rowand will make this season.

Thomas/Ortiz..... comparable DH's at this point IMHO

ROFL That should have been in teal.

Williamson/Botch..... enough said. IMHO, we can't get rid of Botch fast enough

Koch will be off the books in 8 months anyways.

bc2k
02-27-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Yeah, but at a price tag of 8 million more than Rowand will make this season.



ROFL That should have been in teal.



Koch will be off the books in 8 months anyways. [/B]

So you're saying the Sox shouldn't try to upgrade the team because it would cost too much money.

SEALgep
02-27-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
So you're saying the Sox shouldn't try to upgrade the team because it would cost too much money. I don't consider this trade an upgrade. Obviously Boston does because they initiated this trade talk. I think this speaks well of Rowand as well if they consider him an adequate replacement in center.

Randar68
02-27-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
So you're saying the Sox shouldn't try to upgrade the team because it would cost too much money.

I love Frank Thomas, but it certainly would have been tempting. You significantly upgrade 2 positions and add a LH bat to the lineup...

Frank would put up rediculous numbers hitting in Fenway...

jabrch
02-27-2004, 11:22 AM
I would have had a very hard time turning this down. A legit CF, a left handed bat, a bonafide hitter in the DH spot, moving Rowand, cutting salary, moving Koch for Williamson...

All of that sounds good - I'd miss Frank, but dang...

CubKilla
02-27-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
ROFL That should have been in teal.

Why?

hold2dibber
02-27-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I would have had a very hard time turning this down. A legit CF, a left handed bat, a bonafide hitter in the DH spot, moving Rowand, cutting salary, moving Koch for Williamson...

All of that sounds good - I'd miss Frank, but dang...

Damon is pretty good, but he's overpaid (owed $8 million in '04 and $8.5 million in '05). Ortiz and Williamson are in their walk years. So after '04, all the Sox would be left with would be Damon and his $8.5 million salary (instead of Frank and his likely $8 million salary). And while Ortiz was great last year, it was by far a career year and he still was absolutely horrid against lefties (.674 OPS). It might have benefited the Sox slightly in '04, but not by much, and it would have hurt them in '05.

maurice
02-27-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Frank would put up rediculous numbers hitting in Fenway...

I envision lots of line drive "singles," which would leave a dent halfwayup the wall before bouncing all the way back to the SS.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 01:07 PM
Anyone that thinks getting rid of frank is good for this team is just plain dumb unless its for a stud starter or stud closer. He is and will remain the focal point of our offense. He leads by his actions, not his words. If he was ever dealt, who would become the leader by default and who would do a good job? Valentin is the vocal leader and thomas is the quiet leader who takes all the knocks by the media and he has done a trmemendous job. More than anyone can ask for. He gets dealt, whos going to take all that criticism you know someones gonna get. I dont see anybody on this team being able to handle it the way frank does. He lets all the rest of the guys on the team play because he gets all the attention. People dont realize that.

Randar68
02-27-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I envision lots of line drive "singles," which would leave a dent halfwayup the wall before bouncing all the way back to the SS.

Or pop-up HR's. How many warning track fly-balls does he hit yearly?

Randar68
02-27-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
Anyone that thinks getting rid of frank is good for this team is just plain dumb unless its for a stud starter or stud closer.

Actually I think that anyone who says trading Frank for any closer, and I don't care if it's the reincarnation of Dennis Eckersly, is just plain dumb.

That said, it's also narrowminded to say there aren't players out there you wouldn't trade Frank for.

Dadawg_77
02-27-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Damon is pretty good, but he's overpaid (owed $8 million in '04 and $8.5 million in '05). Ortiz and Williamson are in their walk years. So after '04, all the Sox would be left with would be Damon and his $8.5 million salary (instead of Frank and his likely $8 million salary). And while Ortiz was great last year, it was by far a career year and he still was absolutely horrid against lefties (.674 OPS). It might have benefited the Sox slightly in '04, but not by much, and it would have hurt them in '05.

Ortiz and Konerko would make a killer platoon. So that would be one postive on the deal, but Frank his anyone.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Actually I think that anyone who says trading Frank for any closer, and I don't care if it's the reincarnation of Dennis Eckersly, is just plain dumb.

That said, it's also narrowminded to say there aren't players out there you wouldn't trade Frank for.

If the Yankees pick up half of Arod's salary id make the trade, but thats about it. For the money Frank's getting paid to do all the good things for this team, he is a bargain. I honestly cant think of anyone I would trade for. If you wanna give me some trade proposals who you think you would like to see, keeping salries in mind also, I would love to hear them. But im an avid frank supporter and he is the white sox this year. With anyone else in his spot, this team has no chance i believe.

Randar68
02-27-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
If the Yankees pick up half of Arod's salary id make the trade, but thats about it. For the money Frank's getting paid to do all the good things for this team, he is a bargain. I honestly cant think of anyone I would trade for. If you wanna give me some trade proposals who you think you would like to see, keeping salries in mind also, I would love to hear them. But im an avid frank supporter and he is the white sox this year. With anyone else in his spot, this team has no chance i believe.

You wouldn't trade Frank for Albert Pujols? How about Nomar? How about Vlad? How about Bonds?

There's 4 quick ones off the top of my head. I love Frank, but if you can fill multiple GAPING holes in your lineup by trading away 1 35 year-old player, I'd have a hard time believing anyone who says no is using their head instead of their heart to answer.

munchman33
02-27-2004, 01:41 PM
While I agree that Frank is one of the biggest bargains in the game, I'd make this deal in a heartbeat. Ortiz is a big left handed bat that balances our lineup, and Damon is the leadoff hitter we need to set things up. Throw in Williamson for Botch, and our bullpen is instantly better.

Frank is my favorite player. But I think this deal would drastically improve the team.

lowesox
02-27-2004, 01:42 PM
Yeah, that wouldn't have been the optimal trade for the Sox. If they decide to trade Frank, it will signal an end of an era. So they'd better get a very good young player in return who can be a part of the next generation.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You wouldn't trade Frank for Albert Pujols? How about Nomar? How about Vlad? How about Bonds?

There's 4 quick ones off the top of my head. I love Frank, but if you can fill multiple GAPING holes in your lineup by trading away 1 35 year-old player, I'd have a hard time believing anyone who says no is using their head instead of their heart to answer.

I just wrote like a million word essay as to why i wouldnt do it for vlad pujols or nomar, but possibly bonds, but it didnt send it through and im not writing it again but theres my answer. :) im sorry man

Win1ForMe
02-27-2004, 02:42 PM
I would do that deal in a second. You basically upgrade the bullpen, CF, lead-off while taking only a slight downturn at DH.

Randar68
02-27-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I just wrote like a million word essay as to why i wouldnt do it for vlad pujols or nomar, but possibly bonds, but it didnt send it through and im not writing it again but theres my answer. :) im sorry man

You live up to your name if you wouldn't do Frank for Pujols. You'd have to be out of your MELON! not to. Pujols is what, 12-13 years younger?

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You live up to your name if you wouldn't do Frank for Pujols. You'd have to be out of your MELON! not to. Pujols is what, 12-13 years younger?

I explained thoroughly in the post that never went through why not. But just because he's 13 years younger does not make it a good deal. I understand where your coming from, but you have to make a better case than that.

Randar68
02-27-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I explained thoroughly in the post that never went through why not. But just because he's 13 years younger does not make it a good deal. I understand where your coming from, but you have to make a better case than that.

Seriously? You need me to spell out why I would trade for Pujols, who put up numbers similar to Frank in his Prime, who can play OF or 1B, for a full-time 35-year-old DH?

SERIOUSLY?

pudge
02-27-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I explained thoroughly in the post that never went through why not. But just because he's 13 years younger does not make it a good deal. I understand where your coming from, but you have to make a better case than that.


If it took you that long to explain it, it must have been a pile of crap.

I can explain it real simple for ya: Pujols is Frank 12 years ago. If you wouldn't trade for him, you're deranged.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 05:28 PM
3 words will explain it pretty much:

TOO MUCH MONEY

beckett21
02-27-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
3 words will explain it pretty much:

TOO MUCH MONEY

Sounds like good JR reasoning there.

:reinsy

"Hey the kid's got a good point. I mean, you don't expect ME to pay top dollar for one of the game's up and coming superstars, do you??"

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
3 words will explain it pretty much:

TOO MUCH MONEY

I have to agree. He just signed a 7 year, 100 million dollar contract extension, and there are still doubts as to what his real age is. We should be concentrating on locking up Magglio, not making trades for yet another 1B/DH.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I have to agree. He just signed a 7 year, 100 million dollar contract extension, and there are still doubts as to what his real age is. We should be concentrating on locking up Magglio, not making trades for yet another 1B/DH.

thank you sir. talent wise, age wise. I do the deal in a heartbeat. But its not that easy.

beckett21
02-27-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I have to agree. He just signed a 7 year, 100 million dollar contract extension, and there are still doubts as to what his real age is. We should be concentrating on locking up Magglio, not making trades for yet another 1B/DH.

The situation was purely hypothetical. Not to mention Pujols can play virtually anywhere you want to put him. Questions about his age? At worst he is maybe two or three years older than his reported 24; but I don't imagine you or anyone has any proof of this anyway. To label him a "DH" is inaccurate as he has played LF and 3B in the past as well as 1B, granted his defense is poor. Thomas is a great hitter, a hero to many here. But you can't let your heart cloud the issue. Well you can, but it might not be advisable. Have you seen Albert's numbers over the past 3 years? Hardly a fluke. Thomas is great, but come on. Let's look at things objectively here.

And this has nothing to do with Maggs. The hypothetical was Thomas for Pujols. I understand the financials, but suspend reality for a second. All things equal, give me Pujols 24/7 over Frank at this stage of their careers. And taking money into consideration, still give me Pujols. He may be second only to ARod as far as best players in the game today.

Sorry Randar, I'm afraid I agree with you on this one! :D:

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
. All things equal, give me Pujols 24/7 over Frank at this stage of their careers.



This was a purely deeppink scenario regardless, but of course I'd take Pujols over FT. But financials are a major factor with this franchise, and locking up 7 years, 100 million dollars is something we can't do at this point, if we have any hope of retaining Magglio.

beckett21
02-27-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
This was a purely deeppink scenario regardless, but of course I'd take Pujols over FT. But financials are a major factor with this franchise, and locking up 7 years, 100 million dollars is something we can't do at this point, if we have any hope of retaining Magglio.

Agreed that we would have a hard time keeping Magglio as well. Changing the subject a little bit, let me ask this: is Magglio worth Pujols' contract? Because that is what he pretty much expects. Not saying he is or he isn't, just wondering if you would be willing to lay out that much money for Maggs. That seems to be in the neighborhood of his asking price. At some point JR is going to have to pony up for someone, or else this team will turn into the Blackhawks very quickly.

hillbilly
02-27-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Agreed that we would have a hard time keeping Magglio as well. Changing the subject a little bit, let me ask this: is Magglio worth Pujols' contract? Because that is what he pretty much expects. Not saying he is or he isn't, just wondering if you would be willing to lay out that much money for Maggs. That seems to be in the neighborhood of his asking price. At some point JR is going to have to pony up for someone, or else this team will turn into the Blackhawks very quickly.

Not a chance

Daver
02-27-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Agreed that we would have a hard time keeping Magglio as well. Changing the subject a little bit, let me ask this: is Magglio worth Pujols' contract? Because that is what he pretty much expects. Not saying he is or he isn't, just wondering if you would be willing to lay out that much money for Maggs. That seems to be in the neighborhood of his asking price. At some point JR is going to have to pony up for someone, or else this team will turn into the Blackhawks very quickly.

To give you an honest opinion,no,Ordonez is not worth the money he is looking to get.He is a good hitter with an average glove,and doesn't possess the arm you want in a top dollar RFer.

Iguana775
02-27-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Perhaps we need a degree in economics from Harvard to understand why? :?:

i think that is where the deeppink came in to effect in his post.

beckett21
02-27-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Daver
To give you an honest opinion,no,Ordonez is not worth the money he is looking to get.He is a good hitter with an average glove,and doesn't possess the arm you want in a top dollar RFer.

Thank you. I agree his demands are out of line IMO.

lowesox
02-27-2004, 06:24 PM
Just to throw in another two cents - I'd do Thomas for Pujols too. At this point, the smart thing the sox can do is get younger without getting worse.

Deadguy
02-27-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
i think that is where the deeppink came in to effect in his post.

Huh? It was actually a dig at the current GM of the LA Dodgers, possesses a degree in Economics from Harvard, and rejected a trade involving Frank Thomas, but was more willing to obtain the services of Paul Konerko, if the Sox could throw some more money into the deal.

Fenway
02-27-2004, 07:57 PM
no way Theo even makes that offer

There has been nothing...nada on this on this end


sidenote

Why were Cub fans singing the WS fight song????

A. Cavatica
02-27-2004, 09:20 PM
I would have made this trade.

We could really use (1) a leadoff hitter, (2) a lefty bat, (3) a reliable righthanded reliever, and (4) salary relief.

Damon's somewhat overrated and overpaid, but he'd still be much better than Harris or Rowand as a leadoff hitter, and his defense in center is fine.

Ortiz was a legitimate MVP candidate last year, which Frank was not. Even if we only used him against RHPs, he'd put up better numbers than anyone but Magglio. And because we'd get him back in the deal, we could still afford to trade Konerko to LA.

Williamson is far more reliable than Koch.

This may be a case where sentiment prevailed over common sense.

JC456
02-27-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Wow! I guess I'm the only one that would have been all over this trade.

Damon/Rowand..... definite CF upgrade
Thomas/Ortiz..... comparable DH's at this point IMHO
Williamson/Botch..... enough said. IMHO, we can't get rid of Botch fast enough

Maybe someone was merely dreaming!!

gosox41
02-28-2004, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by otis
In the aftermath of the AROD trade to the Yankees, the Red Sox tried to match by acquring Frank Thomas. The Red Sox offered Johnny Damon And David Ortiz for Big Frank and Aaron Rowand. They even offered to exchange Scott Williamson with Billy Koch to help balance out the money. KW declined, saying that he was not interested in trading Frank without getting starting pitching in return and that he feels good about the team right now. This conversation took place about a week ago. Nothing too earth shocking , but I thought it was interesting to share. I guess you could argue the WSox would be a better team by making the trade, but I am kind of glad Kenny didn't pull th trigger.

Otis, do you know if the teams are still talking about any sort of deal? I thought they would try to overpay for Magglio to offset the Yankees A-Rod move. Do they even have any starting pitchers worth trading for (prospects or minoe leaguers) other then their big 3 which they're not going to trade anyway?

Bob

Fenway
02-28-2004, 10:14 AM
Must be a SLOW Saturday morning

WEEI Boston talked about the rumor quoting redsoxnation.net which in turn quoted whitesoxinteractive.com

One of the hosts all excited about Thomas in Fenway Park

Does not take much to get the howling dogs going in this town.....

beckett21
02-28-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by fenway
Must be a SLOW Saturday morning

WEEI Boston talked about the rumor quoting redsoxnation.net which in turn quoted whitesoxinteractive.com

One of the hosts all excited about Thomas in Fenway Park

Does not take much to get the howling dogs going in this town.....


And we all thought the sources in Chicago here were bad! :)

Deadguy
02-28-2004, 10:32 AM
Here's to another season of the Red Sox being the Yankee's b******! :)

pearso66
02-28-2004, 02:54 PM
Am I the only one who thinks Ortiz's numbers were inflated because he plays in Fenway? I think being a lefty in that park had a lot to do with his production. Personally, I'm happy with sticking iwth the team we are fielding right now. Koch could bounce back, boy would we not hear the end of it if we traded him and he turned to be lights out. Or Thomas has a huge year in Fenway and Ortiz falls back to mediocracy, or Damon gets hurt. It would be another bad trade by williams