PDA

View Full Version : Hal's article + an offer


gosox41
02-25-2004, 08:03 AM
Interesting article by Hal. It's good to see him getting caught up in the excitement of baseball even if 92% of the year (based on his own admission of this being a one month fluke) he writes a lot of negative and skeptical pieces on the Sox. I remember one post he wrote this offseason saying because of the increase in ticket prices he may only go to 6 or 7 Sox games, but now it's up to a possible 18 for him and his son..

So I have offer to any Sox fan who bashes JR, feels like they've been lied to or thinks this team is making money hand over fist and doesn't care at all about winning but is then planning to go out and buy more tickets and support the hated JR financially while talking bad about him here:

I'll come by all your houses, you give me half the money you were going to spend on Sox tickets and I'll kick you in the nuts. That way you get to feel all the pain and anguish without actually supporting JR and could still come here and bash the organization all you want knowing full well you didn't get screwed over again.

I'd like to thank "Vegas Vacation" for giving me this idea that I'm sure negative Sox fans everywhere will take my up on.


Bob

TornLabrum
02-25-2004, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Interesting article by Hal. It's good to see him getting caught up in the excitement of baseball even if 92% of the year (based on his own admission of this being a one month fluke) he writes a lot of negative and skeptical pieces on the Sox. I remember one post he wrote this offseason saying because of the increase in ticket prices he may only go to 6 or 7 Sox games, but now it's up to a possible 18 for him and his son..

So I have offer to any Sox fan who bashes JR, feels like they've been lied to or thinks this team is making money hand over fist and doesn't care at all about winning but is then planning to go out and buy more tickets and support the hated JR financially while talking bad about him here:

I'll come by all your houses, you give me half the money you were going to spend on Sox tickets and I'll kick you in the nuts. That way you get to feel all the pain and anguish without actually supporting JR and could still come here and bash the organization all you want knowing full well you didn't get screwed over again.

I'd like to thank "Vegas Vacation" for giving me this idea that I'm sure negative Sox fans everywhere will take my up on.


Bob

Believe it or not, I hate being negative about the Sox. I grew up in the Jack Brickhouse/Bob Elson era, and the Go-Go Sox were my heroes. Two of the greatest moments of my life were telling both Chico Carrasquel and Jack Brickhouse about their contributions to the moment I became a baseball fan in general and a Sox fan in particular.

In addition to that, a large portion of my time is spent working on the board of directors of the Windy City Sox Fans. You don't get more hard core than our membership. One of our board members has had season tickets since 1948. We thrive on the team doing well because we schedule events such as a patio party at The Cell, a series of luncheons every summer featuring players, and a road trip every year.

If the team does well, we do well, and we're able to donate more money to our preferred charities, Chicago Baseball Cancer Charities and Children's Memorial Hospital. So it's in my interest to want the team to do well.

Brian26
02-25-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In addition to that, a large portion of my time is spent working on the board of directors of the Windy City Sox Fans. You don't get more hard core than our membership. One of our board members has had season tickets since 1948. We thrive on the team doing well because we schedule events such as a patio party at The Cell, a series of luncheons every summer featuring players, and a road trip every year.

When I've walked by the booth at Soxfest in past years, I notice a lot of older fans congregated there. Are the Windy City Sox Fans primarily a group that celebrates the teams from the 50's-70's? Are younger members invited to join? Just curious, as I don't know much about the history of the group.

TornLabrum
02-26-2004, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
When I've walked by the booth at Soxfest in past years, I notice a lot of older fans congregated there. Are the Windy City Sox Fans primarily a group that celebrates the teams from the 50's-70's? Are younger members invited to join? Just curious, as I don't know much about the history of the group.

Most of those older fans are other members of the board. We have members from their teens up to octagenarians. You don't have to be a particular age to go to a patio party. You have to be able to afford the rate to go on the road trip, but that's not age specific either.

Our guest list for our summer luncheon series is generally taken from current team members. We have an annual holiday party, and that's where we generally invite a group of older players. This year Billy Pierce, Bill Melton, Minnie Minoso, and Steve Trout were our guests.

We try to cater to fans of all ages. And if you've been by the booth, you can see that kids flock to the pencil pull.

hose
02-26-2004, 07:14 AM
Speaking of WCSF...is my membership being sent pony express? :D:

voodoochile
02-26-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Interesting article by Hal. It's good to see him getting caught up in the excitement of baseball even if 92% of the year (based on his own admission of this being a one month fluke) he writes a lot of negative and skeptical pieces on the Sox. I remember one post he wrote this offseason saying because of the increase in ticket prices he may only go to 6 or 7 Sox games, but now it's up to a possible 18 for him and his son..

So I have offer to any Sox fan who bashes JR, feels like they've been lied to or thinks this team is making money hand over fist and doesn't care at all about winning but is then planning to go out and buy more tickets and support the hated JR financially while talking bad about him here:

I'll come by all your houses, you give me half the money you were going to spend on Sox tickets and I'll kick you in the nuts. That way you get to feel all the pain and anguish without actually supporting JR and could still come here and bash the organization all you want knowing full well you didn't get screwed over again.

I'd like to thank "Vegas Vacation" for giving me this idea that I'm sure negative Sox fans everywhere will take my up on.


Bob

You'd have to do it for 3 hours straight 18 times this year alone to truly give the full effect and I don't think anyone wants that.

Honestly though, why is it so hard to understand that people love to watch live baseball and being Sox fans they go to Sox games even though they hate/mistrust JR and his management team.

In the end it is still entertainment and depending on where and when you buy your seats, it is reasonably priced entertainment. Beyond that, it is outdoor reasonably priced entertainment in the summertime.

Yes, it is frustrating to sit and watch another JR team make bad decisions on and off the field and probably fall short in the weakest division in baseball, but it is better to have bad live baseball then no live baseball at all, IMO. Besides, what is the alternative? I think most of the people who post on this board would definitely take you up on your offer rather than go to live flubbie games unless they are playing the Sox...

thepaulbowski
02-26-2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You'd have to do it for 3 hours straight 18 times this year alone to truly give the full effect and I don't think anyone wants that.

Honestly though, why is it so hard to understand that people love to watch live baseball and being Sox fans they go to Sox games even though they hate/mistrust JR and his management team.

In the end it is still entertainment and depending on where and when you buy your seats, it is reasonably priced entertainment. Beyond that, it is outdoor reasonably priced entertainment in the summertime.

Yes, it is frustrating to sit and watch another JR team make bad decisions on and off the field and probably fall short in the weakest division in baseball, but it is better to have bad live baseball then no live baseball at all, IMO. Besides, what is the alternative? I think most of the people who post on this board would definitely take you up on your offer rather than go to live flubbie games unless they are playing the Sox...

I couldn't have said it better myself. No matter what I say or what I think I always come back. Why? Because I love baseball and I won't let JR ruin that for me.

StillMissOzzie
02-26-2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by gosox41

So I have offer to any Sox fan who bashes JR, feels like they've been lied to or thinks this team is making money hand over fist and doesn't care at all about winning but is then planning to go out and buy more tickets and support the hated JR financially while talking bad about him here:

I'll come by all your houses, you give me half the money you were going to spend on Sox tickets and I'll kick you in the nuts. That way you get to feel all the pain and anguish without actually supporting JR and could still come here and bash the organization all you want knowing full well you didn't get screwed over again.

Bob

I don't know how I could possibly pass on an offer like this, but I will.

SMO
:gulp:

TornLabrum
02-26-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by hose
Speaking of WCSF...is my membership being sent pony express? :D:

Membership packages go out sometime around the start of the season. We have our WCSF gifts, but we're waiting on the Sox-related gift. We also still have to print up the membership cards. (Don't forget to use it at Grandstand for your 10% discount when you get it.)

soxnut
02-27-2004, 12:23 AM
I thought the article was great, probably the one iI have most enjoyed by Hal. I can relate to whta he is syaing about optimism and how big the game itself is, compared to those who run it and participate. That is the attitude I take. I'm rarely negative about the Sox, no matter who owns them or what they do. They're my team, and I luv em. That's it.......... :smile:

gosox41
02-27-2004, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You'd have to do it for 3 hours straight 18 times this year alone to truly give the full effect and I don't think anyone wants that.

Honestly though, why is it so hard to understand that people love to watch live baseball and being Sox fans they go to Sox games even though they hate/mistrust JR and his management team.

In the end it is still entertainment and depending on where and when you buy your seats, it is reasonably priced entertainment. Beyond that, it is outdoor reasonably priced entertainment in the summertime.

Yes, it is frustrating to sit and watch another JR team make bad decisions on and off the field and probably fall short in the weakest division in baseball, but it is better to have bad live baseball then no live baseball at all, IMO. Besides, what is the alternative? I think most of the people who post on this board would definitely take you up on your offer rather than go to live flubbie games unless they are playing the Sox...

I understand the love of baseball, but as Hal has pointed out there are minor league teams and Milwaukee plays some good teams during the course of the year if you want ML ball.

I just don't get how people let emotion dictate their money. They hate JR and think he's screwing the fans over, but when push comes to shove they happily give him more money.


Not a good way to get JR to sell the team. Not a good way to add credibility to an argument when you say something and do the opposite.

Bob

TornLabrum
02-27-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I understand the love of baseball, but as Hal has pointed out there are minor league teams and Milwaukee plays some good teams during the course of the year if you want ML ball.

I just don't get how people let emotion dictate their money. They hate JR and think he's screwing the fans over, but when push comes to shove they happily give him more money.


Not a good way to get JR to sell the team. Not a good way to add credibility to an argument when you say something and do the opposite.

Bob

Let me try again, then. I have never advocated anyone boycotting the Sox or even ceasing to attend games.

The emotional ties are just too strong for me. My first baseball memory was when I was five years old. I was out playing and I decided to go see my grandparents who lived two doors away from us.

I came into the living room through the kitchen. My grandpa was watching TV and I heard this maniac screaming something like, "Back...back...Attaboy Chico!" (I don't think Brickhouse was using "Hey! Hey!" back then, but I could be wrong.) I asked what happened and my grandpa explained that Carrasquel had hit a home run and the Sox had taken the lead.

That was it. I asked what channel the game was on. Then I ran home shouting, "Carousel hit a homer!" I turned on the TV at home and watched the rest of the game. And every other game that was on TV that summer.

I soon had my first hero, Minnie Minoso. He was soon followed by Nellie Fox and Billy Pierce. The next year Luis Aparicio joined the pantheon. That was the year my dad took me to my first game. Bob Keegan beet the Tigers 2-1.

The following year I saw the New York Yankees in person twice. In the first game, Art Ditmar threw one at Larry Doby's head and the best brawl the Sox have ever been in ensued. That's the one where Walt Dropo just beat the tar out of Enos Slaughter. I remember being perched on my dad's shoulders for much of that fight and him pointing out Slaughter as he walked off the field with his shirt ripped off his back and his cap askew.

No, Bob, I can't turn off those memories. Or the memory of that cold April night in the '60s when my dad got the company box seats just past the Sox dugout and I saw Joel Horlen beat the Orioles.

I mean, I even took the North Western from DeKalb in April of '69 to go see Billy Wynne get shelled. But I got Walt Williams autograph.

Nope. The Sox will outlive their owner. Now if only I can!

gosox41
02-28-2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Let me try again, then. I have never advocated anyone boycotting the Sox or even ceasing to attend games.

The emotional ties are just too strong for me. My first baseball memory was when I was five years old. I was out playing and I decided to go see my grandparents who lived two doors away from us.

I came into the living room through the kitchen. My grandpa was watching TV and I heard this maniac screaming something like, "Back...back...Attaboy Chico!" (I don't think Brickhouse was using "Hey! Hey!" back then, but I could be wrong.) I asked what happened and my grandpa explained that Carrasquel had hit a home run and the Sox had taken the lead.

That was it. I asked what channel the game was on. Then I ran home shouting, "Carousel hit a homer!" I turned on the TV at home and watched the rest of the game. And every other game that was on TV that summer.

I soon had my first hero, Minnie Minoso. He was soon followed by Nellie Fox and Billy Pierce. The next year Luis Aparicio joined the pantheon. That was the year my dad took me to my first game. Bob Keegan beet the Tigers 2-1.

The following year I saw the New York Yankees in person twice. In the first game, Art Ditmar threw one at Larry Doby's head and the best brawl the Sox have ever been in ensued. That's the one where Walt Dropo just beat the tar out of Enos Slaughter. I remember being perched on my dad's shoulders for much of that fight and him pointing out Slaughter as he walked off the field with his shirt ripped off his back and his cap askew.

No, Bob, I can't turn off those memories. Or the memory of that cold April night in the '60s when my dad got the company box seats just past the Sox dugout and I saw Joel Horlen beat the Orioles.

I mean, I even took the North Western from DeKalb in April of '69 to go see Billy Wynne get shelled. But I got Walt Williams autograph.

Nope. The Sox will outlive their owner. Now if only I can!

I've seen your reasoning before, and as long as it makes you happy it's fine. I just find it a little odd how many peope hate the current situation the team is in but continue to support it with their money.

I have deep emotional ties to the team to, and if I ever changed my view of JR to think he was just there to rip me off, I'd stop giving him my money in a heartbeat.. To effect change sometimes one needs to make tough deciisons. You can still be a Sox fan, but just not go to the game. But it's your choice, obivously and howver you wnat to rationalize your reasoning to give money to someone you hate is fine. It doesn't effect me eithe way.

I guess deep down I wish more fans that truly hated JR would make the stand and tell him to screw off by not spending money. All the negative signs and articles in the world aren't going to force him to sell when he sees those same people at his ballpark.

I once had a problem with a car company (whichI'm not going into detail about) and while I may not have as strong emoitional ties to them as I do to the Sox, me and my family were damn loyal customers. One day there was as falling out as to the price and quality of some work done. Ever since I bad mouth the company to anyone I can who wants to hear. And furthermore, I will neve ever buy from that company again because I felt cheated.

And that was to something that was only metal. Imagine how I'd feel if it was something I'd truly love. I'd get out of a bad relationship so fast it would make your head spin instead of remembering the good old days.

Bob

Dan H
02-28-2004, 08:46 AM
It is tough to be a Sox fan, and it has been for a long time. I have been going to Sox games since 1961 and want to stay a fan. But it is very hard to do that when you have an owner who just isn't serious enough about winning. This off season demonstrates that more than ever. Reinsdorf needed to respond to the Cubs and instead we got addition by subtraction.

Hoping to win a bad division doesn't do it for me. That is not building a solid tradition. That is praying for parity. That is almost like hoping Greg Norton will be a great third baseman.

The most frustrating thing about the attendance issue is that it should have sent a strong message to the White Sox that they have done something wrong. Instead they still lash out at the fans. Blaming the fans isn't the answer. The Sox should try listening to them for a change. Running an organization from the top down doesn't work.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-28-2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I've seen your reasoning before, and as long as it makes you happy it's fine. I just find it a little odd how many peope hate the current situation the team is in but continue to support it with their money.

I have deep emotional ties to the team to, and if I ever changed my view of JR to think he was just there to rip me off, I'd stop giving him my money in a heartbeat.. To effect change sometimes one needs to make tough deciisons. You can still be a Sox fan, but just not go to the game. But it's your choice, obivously and howver you wnat to rationalize your reasoning to give money to someone you hate is fine. It doesn't effect me eithe way.

I guess deep down I wish more fans that truly hated JR would make the stand and tell him to screw off by not spending money. All the negative signs and articles in the world aren't going to force him to sell when he sees those same people at his ballpark.

I once had a problem with a car company (whichI'm not going into detail about) and while I may not have as strong emoitional ties to them as I do to the Sox, me and my family were damn loyal customers. One day there was as falling out as to the price and quality of some work done. Ever since I bad mouth the company to anyone I can who wants to hear. And furthermore, I will neve ever buy from that company again because I felt cheated.

And that was to something that was only metal. Imagine how I'd feel if it was something I'd truly love. I'd get out of a bad relationship so fast it would make your head spin instead of remembering the good old days.

Bob

There is a certain irony I find in your post, especially the bit about being angry at your old car company.

You bought that car. It was yours. Why you bought that particular brand was wholly your own choice. Perhaps you identified with that brand's identity, be it the quality, image, or the price/value.

To break away and vow never to buy that brand of car again several things needed to happen until you finally felt "cheated." Now you're buying someone else's brand. Whatever allure you had for the old brand was clearly a mistake on your part.

Hal and nearly everyone else here (including me) don't see it that way with our Sox. We never claimed to *own* anything when we bought tickets, but clearly our identification with the team precludes us from dumping them the way you dumped your old car company. If wasting a whole day traveling from DeKalb just to watch Billy Wynne get shelled can still be made a memorable day for having gotten No Neck Williams' autograph, clearly our identification with the Sox goes far deeper than yours for your Buick. We won't switch to Ford simply because we felt "cheated."

We're Sox Fans for better or worse, not just better. What part of that can't you understand?

The sorry fact is the legions of Sox Fans that used to feel like Hal and others has been decimated the past 20 years. The team's share of the city's baseball fan population has never been smaller. Bob, the people you complain about aren't posting here anymore. They've *never* posted here. They're gone. They probably will never come back either, at least not until an owner with more on the ball than Jerry Reinsdorf buys the Sox. They are the ones who felt "cheated" and picked up and left, vowing never to return. Or more likely they just became indifferent and walked off without another thought one way or another.

If you want to whine about negative Sox Fans, I suggest doing it in front of the water cooler at work or the cafeteria at school. The Cubs fans will laugh along with you and everyone else will shrug their shoulders and walk away. Either way they are the source of the problem that pisses you off. Go pontificate to them.

Meanwhile we're still here and we still give a damn. Nobody else does. Stop preaching to the choir.

voodoochile
02-28-2004, 11:41 AM
Since when did a lack of butts in the seat ever bother JR anyway? He just takes the money from the state, cuts the payroll even further, trades off the high-priced veteran talent and goes with a bunch of kids.

Oh yeah, then he blames the fans.

How low would it have to go before JR would decide to sell? No one knows and with the flubbies selling out for the next few years at least the Sox are in a natural position to pick up the casual fans who overflow to the southside, so even if 1000 diehard fans protest, it probably won't affect ticket sales much this year or next.

I agree with Hal. Why should I deny myself the pleasure of watching the team live just because I think JR is a business man first and a fan second. In the end that is where he draws the line. I think JR is 100% correct when he says he wants to win a championship, but he wants to do it on his terms and he is one stubborn SOB.

I guess I am doing my part according to Bob, but not intentionally, I just moved.

gosox41
02-29-2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
There is a certain irony I find in your post, especially the bit about being angry at your old car company.

You bought that car. It was yours. Why you bought that particular brand was wholly your own choice. Perhaps you identified with that brand's identity, be it the quality, image, or the price/value.

To break away and vow never to buy that brand of car again several things needed to happen until you finally felt "cheated." Now you're buying someone else's brand. Whatever allure you had for the old brand was clearly a mistake on your part.

Hal and nearly everyone else here (including me) don't see it that way with our Sox. We never claimed to *own* anything when we bought tickets, but clearly our identification with the team precludes us from dumping them the way you dumped your old car company. If wasting a whole day traveling from DeKalb just to watch Billy Wynne get shelled can still be made a memorable day for having gotten No Neck Williams' autograph, clearly our identification with the Sox goes far deeper than yours for your Buick. We won't switch to Ford simply because we felt "cheated."

We're Sox Fans for better or worse, not just better. What part of that can't you understand?

The sorry fact is the legions of Sox Fans that used to feel like Hal and others has been decimated the past 20 years. The team's share of the city's baseball fan population has never been smaller. Bob, the people you complain about aren't posting here anymore. They've *never* posted here. They're gone. They probably will never come back either, at least not until an owner with more on the ball than Jerry Reinsdorf buys the Sox. They are the ones who felt "cheated" and picked up and left, vowing never to return. Or more likely they just became indifferent and walked off without another thought one way or another.

If you want to whine about negative Sox Fans, I suggest doing it in front of the water cooler at work or the cafeteria at school. The Cubs fans will laugh along with you and everyone else will shrug their shoulders and walk away. Either way they are the source of the problem that pisses you off. Go pontificate to them.

Meanwhile we're still here and we still give a damn. Nobody else does. Stop preaching to the choir.

One of the points I was trying to make was about the negativity here. I still own season tickets, but that's because I don't feel the same waymost do about JR and the supposed millions he makes.

I would never spend a ton of time as some do around here complaining about a situation but then keep going back to revisiting it. I have fond memories of games too. But for all the negative I read here, are there still fond memories being made at the ballpark? Judging from a lot of the negativity and personal attacks in the posts, I would have guess not.

But,PHG, you're right. I don't understand some of your logic. As long (and other JR haters) are happy making JR richer while continually feeling negative about the organization as a whole that is you're right. I'm loyal up to the point I'm feeling screwed over by the team/product I'm loyal to. After that all bets are off. JR (and most of the world) operate under the all mgihty dollar. As long as you continue to spend money there you are supporting JR like it or not. And what has he given you (and other Sox fans) other then countless hourse of negative materieal to write about. Are these fond memories for people who hate JR, compaling about ticket prices and say in writing they're going to go to less games only to do the oppsoite. With all the time writng about the negatives of the Sox and JR where do the fond memories come in to play?

Bob

TornLabrum
02-29-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
One of the points I was trying to make was about the negativity here. I still own season tickets, but that's because I don't feel the same waymost do about JR and the supposed millions he makes.

I would never spend a ton of time as some do around here complaining about a situation but then keep going back to revisiting it. I have fond memories of games too. But for all the negative I read here, are there still fond memories being made at the ballpark? Judging from a lot of the negativity and personal attacks in the posts, I would have guess not.

But,PHG, you're right. I don't understand some of your logic. As long (and other JR haters) are happy making JR richer while continually feeling negative about the organization as a whole that is you're right. I'm loyal up to the point I'm feeling screwed over by the team/product I'm loyal to. After that all bets are off. JR (and most of the world) operate under the all mgihty dollar. As long as you continue to spend money there you are supporting JR like it or not. And what has he given you (and other Sox fans) other then countless hourse of negative materieal to write about. Are these fond memories for people who hate JR, compaling about ticket prices and say in writing they're going to go to less games only to do the oppsoite. With all the time writng about the negatives of the Sox and JR where do the fond memories come in to play?

Bob

Let me add something to this. If you go through my articles and posts on this message board, I don't think you will find anywhere that I've written that I think JR is making (and hiding) millions. What I have complained about is that if you're going to raise ticket prices, there should be a commensurate improvement in your ball club. Have you seen this with JR's handling of the Sox?

Since 1999 ticket prices have increased over 25 percent, iirc. Parking prices have increased 60 percent (and I know that figure with certainty). Yet we are no closer, and perhaps farther, from a World Series than we were when the kids could play. That's my complaint.

gosox41
03-01-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Let me add something to this. If you go through my articles and posts on this message board, I don't think you will find anywhere that I've written that I think JR is making (and hiding) millions. What I have complained about is that if you're going to raise ticket prices, there should be a commensurate improvement in your ball club. Have you seen this with JR's handling of the Sox?

Since 1999 ticket prices have increased over 25 percent, iirc. Parking prices have increased 60 percent (and I know that figure with certainty). Yet we are no closer, and perhaps farther, from a World Series than we were when the kids could play. That's my complaint.

That's more a KW issue then for not allocating resources. In 2000 the Sox had a $34 mil. pay roll and won the division with a young nuclues. Four years later, the team payroll is $64 million, almost doube the 2000 payroll. So while prices have gone up so has the payroll.

Last year JR paid $52 mill for the team. This year's payroll is about 25% hgher then that.

And before you bring up Everett and Alomar and a $70 mill payroll, , I'm sure the Sox would trade for 2 more players if other teams foot the bill.

But the fact is the payroll has gone up since 1999 and 2000 and even 2003. It hasn't been a straight line up, but he hasn't charged 2004 prices and gone back down to 1999 payroll yet either.

Lastly, off the top of my head, I seem to recall you making a referecne to JR cooking the books and keeping a second set when I went with the claim that JR isn't making millions in profit. You made this comment right around the time I responded to Daver's ticket price article using more concrete numbers that no on disputed.

Bob