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longshot7
02-24-2004, 02:37 AM
Guess we know where he stands on this debate. Ouch.


link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040223rogers,1,7018369.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

frontrunner3
02-24-2004, 04:12 AM
Looks like Phil is trying to stoke up the fire as Big Frank strolls into camp. I hope Frank is all smiles come wednesday so turds like Rogers can find another tree to bark up.

SSN721
02-24-2004, 07:16 AM
He does make a few good points in the article. I myself has always wondered that even though noone really complains about Franks attitude on a professional level if it still manages to have some bad effect on the team. I think Frank is great and personally dont want to see him go. But he has been on this team half my lifetime and I wonder if lately even though his numbers were good last year if he hasnt become some sort of bad luck charm. I want to place most of the blame at Manuels feet for the bad attitude but always wonder a little bit if Frank didnt have anything to do with it at all. :?:

gosox41
02-24-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
Guess we know where he stands on this debate. Ouch.


link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040223rogers,1,7018369.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)

Phil is a day late and dollar short in this article. DePodesta already said he's not interested in Frank because he considers him an AL player.

These are the points I took away form this article:
1. Frank is selfish, even if he puts up 100 walks. It's OK to do that when you're young but not when you're 35 according to Phil.

2. We should trade a future HOFer for 2 young propsects and no major leaguers. Where are all the people that hate the constant rebuilding?

3. Frank cost the Sox 1 game a year with his base running, but it doesn't mention how many he helpe them win wit hhis .390 OBP and .930OPS.

4. He's acting like Albert Belle even though Frank hasn't been arrersted, sued, accused of running over teens with his truck or spitting on any reporters.

5. The Sox may have the monety to re-sign Magglio if they trade Frank. After this season when Koch and Valentin are off the books they freed up $11 mill. If Mags signs a contract like Sheffield then they'd actually be paying him less next season then this season.

6. Oh joy, I get to see Valentin as a possible DH. A .230 hitter DHing doesn't look good for our chances of winning.

7. It's Frank's fault the Sox didn't win the last 3 years. Don't blame PK it's clearly Frank's fault

I like Phil, but he was way off on this one. Any chance he's going to come in here and face the fire?

Bob

dougs78
02-24-2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by longshot7
Guess we know where he stands on this debate. Ouch.


link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040223rogers,1,7018369.column?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)


I usually think Phil has a very informed and logical opinion on most chicago baseball subjects. But this is a case where I vehemently disagree. Frank Thomas was, is, and should be the White Sox best hitter ever. I want to see him continue getting base hits, home runs and being inducted into the Hall of Fame in a White Sox uniform.

There are far too many negative things going on with this franchise to simply ship off Frank Thomas for nothing more than prospects. Its quite clear that the franchise is not interested in competing for a World Series title in the near future, so in the absence of success I would at least appreciate having the opportunity to continue to watch the greatest hitter in Sox history. I have watched him hit for too long to simply ship him off because he doesn't smile as much as Ken Williams, Ozzie Guillen, or Phil Rogers would like.

The bottom line is that he is not overpaid, he is still unbelievably productive, and he is a fan favorite. There is nothing in that equation that would lead a logical person to conclude he should be traded.

StepsInSC
02-24-2004, 08:30 AM
Its almost like he admits it was Guillen's mistake to take shots at Thomas, but now you can't get rid of Guillen so you might as well unload Thomas to clear up any awkwardness. Sheesh.

hold2dibber
02-24-2004, 08:36 AM
I suppose a case can be made for trading Frank, but Phil didn't even come close to making it. As Bob points out, dealing Frank would clear some payroll - but Phil entirely ignores the fact that Frank is an absolute bargain when you compare his very pedestrian salary with his far-above average production. I mean, trading Barry Bonds would sure free up a lot of payroll for the Giants, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

And it would be a good idea to move Frank because that way Ozzie would have the flexibility to play Lee, Valentin and Russ friggin' Gload at DH? Why stop there! The Sox could probably get some ABs for Alomar Jr., Marvin Bernard, Kelly Wunsch and Herm Schneider at DH, too! As I understand it, Phil's argument is that with Frank gone, the Sox would be free to use vastly inferior players to replace him. Absolutely ridiculous.

In Sunday's Trib, Phil wrote an article about how the Sox have potential to win the division and could really make it an exciting summer in this city. Then in Monday's Trib, Phil writes that the Sox should trade their best (or 2nd best) hitter in return for a bunch of minor leaguers who almost certainly would not help the team in '04 and would leave the team with a gaping hole in the middle of the line-up. Huh? Does he think they're contenders or does he think they should be rebuilding? The article struck me as something Rogers spit out without much thought.

JasonC23
02-24-2004, 09:31 AM
Wow, Phil's article is 99.99% crap. The more I read of Phil's work, the less impressed I am.

But I was amazed to see that he suddenly has come to the realization that Carlos Lee's "breakout" 2003 was actually worse than his 2002. How does Phil figure that out and still write such tripe?

Deadguy
02-24-2004, 09:46 AM
I respect Phil, and his baseball knowledge, but he's way off on his reasoning for trading FT.

Blaming him for the Sox not being able to win a "winnable" division the last three years is ridiculous. He had a career threatening injury in 2001, in which they basically ripped off his arm, and then reattached it. A year removed from this surgery, some people have difficulty typing with that arm, yet Thomas was out there, playing MLB.

In 2003, he came up with more clutch hits than I've seen any other Sox player come up with since I've been a fan of this club, and he finished 6th in the league in OPS. Blaming him for the Sox inability to capture the division last season is ridiculous. Think of the guy with the umbrella watching JFK getting shot. While he may not be the cause of the impending disaster, he's an important and memorable figure in it. It's not Thomas' fault that Konerko hit just 3 homeruns in the first three months of the season, hit below .100 for an entire month, went 6 weeks without getting an extra basehit, and killed countless rallies with 28 GIDPs. It's not Thomas' fault that Koch suddenly lost about 7-8 MPH on his fastball and had 33 fewer saves than he had in 2002.

He seems to flip flop between reasons why trading Thomas would be good and bad, then concludes the article with rather poor reasons to justify a Thomas trade. 11.5 million guaranteed over the next two seasons is not the difference between keeping Magglio or having to let him go. Paying guys with MVP potential 8 million dollars in 2005 and then having the possibility of buying him out for 3.5 million in 2006 is not going to handcuff any organization, small market or not. If Magglio doesn't resign with the Sox, it's because he's greedy and has no loyalty to this franchise. And then he justifies it by saying it adds versatility to the Sox lineup. Who is going to replace 40 homers, 100 walks, and 100 RBIs? Look around the rest of baseball, and you'll see that guys who can do that are all making 2-3 times what Thomas is making this year, and that combination is not that easy to find.

poorme
02-24-2004, 09:54 AM
Wow. I think Rogers usually does a pretty good job...but that article sucked...it's inanity leaves me speechless.

cheeses_h_rice
02-24-2004, 09:55 AM
Can anyone verify this part?

More budget room to sign Magglio Ordonez to a long-term deal (Thomas is guaranteed $11.5 million after this season).

That's a lot higher than what I thought Frank was due under the restructured contract. If it's true, I think it does make sense for the Sox to try to deal him now.

Deadguy
02-24-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Can anyone verify this part?



That's a lot higher than what I thought Frank was due under the restructured contract. If it's true, I think it does make sense for the Sox to try to deal him now.

It's a misleading statement. Thomas and the Sox have a mutual option next year, where Frank can excercise his player option for 8 million in 2005, and then the Sox can buy out Thomas' contract for 3.5 million in 2006. THat's where the 11.5 million comes from, which the "worst case" scenario amount of money that the Sox are on the hook for. But it also leaves Thomas with a strong incentive to produce, as there are team options for 10 million in 2005, and 12 million in 2006, and the 10 million dollar player option in 2006.

11.5 million is not a sum of money that is going to handcuff any organization, small market or big. 11.5 million is what the Expos paid Vlad last season. We're talking about a player who in his 8th best season (2000), still finished snd in the league in the MVP voting.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Can anyone verify this part?



That's a lot higher than what I thought Frank was due under the restructured contract. If it's true, I think it does make sense for the Sox to try to deal him now.

The $11.5 mil comes from the $8 million he will get next year when he exercises his option and a $3.5 million team buyout for the 2006 contract. 2006 is the first year the Sox have complete control and can decide to let him go. He would be due $10 mil in 2006 if they do not exercise the option. Until then, Frank is in control the way the contract is structured.

cheeses_h_rice
02-24-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy


11.5 million is not a sum of money that is going to handcuff any organization, small market or big. 11.5 million is what the Expos paid Vlad last season. We're talking about a player who in his 8th best season (2000), still finished snd in the league in the MVP voting.

We're also talking about a player who essentially has removed himself from the "team" aspect of the White Sox organization. I guarantee you Frank will say or do something very stupid and selfish this year that will disrupt the clubhouse and rain down scorn on himself.

KingXerxes
02-24-2004, 10:29 AM
The major leagues are full of idiots who say some of the dumbest and most selfish things I've ever heard. Professional sports is full of guys like this. I cannot understand what Frank Thomas could possibly be doing that so upsets the clubhouse, or the team. Does anyone have a story or an example to point out how this guy gets portrayed over and over again as some sort of poison? Either he is one of the biggest - and quietest - jerks in Sport or we've got one hell of a touchy clubhouse.

ChiSoxBobette
02-24-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Phil is a day late and dollar short in this article. DePodesta already said he's not interested in Frank because he considers him an AL player.

These are the points I took away form this article:
1. Frank is selfish, even if he puts up 100 walks. It's OK to do that when you're young but not when you're 35 according to Phil.

2. We should trade a future HOFer for 2 young propsects and no major leaguers. Where are all the people that hate the constant rebuilding?

3. Frank cost the Sox 1 game a year with his base running, but it doesn't mention how many he helpe them win wit hhis .390 OBP and .930OPS.

4. He's acting like Albert Belle even though Frank hasn't been arrersted, sued, accused of running over teens with his truck or spitting on any reporters.

Lets face it it's just the typical Chicago media hyping the scrubs and trying to start trouble for the White Sox just in case the scrub bubble bursts. I don't even bother reading the cubune when it comes to sports anymore.

5. The Sox may have the monety to re-sign Magglio if they trade Frank. After this season when Koch and Valentin are off the books they freed up $11 mill. If Mags signs a contract like Sheffield then they'd actually be paying him less next season then this season.

6. Oh joy, I get to see Valentin as a possible DH. A .230 hitter DHing doesn't look good for our chances of winning.

7. It's Frank's fault the Sox didn't win the last 3 years. Don't blame PK it's clearly Frank's fault

I like Phil, but he was way off on this one. Any chance he's going to come in here and face the fire?

Bob

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
The $11.5 mil comes from the $8 million he will get next year when he exercises his option and a $3.5 million team buyout for the 2006 contract. 2006 is the first year the Sox have complete control and can decide to let him go. He would be due $10 mil in 2006 if they do not exercise the option. Until then, Frank is in control the way the contract is structured. Wait a second, under the scenerio if we were to buy out his contract next year, are you guys saying we would owe him 11.5 million dollars? The way I see it, if it is a mutual option, both parties have to agree in order for the $8 million to be part of any deal. Otherwise a $3.5 million buyout is exactly that, a buyout. Meaning that's all we owe. Can someone hep me out, is this wrong?

MRKARNO
02-24-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Wait a second, under the scenerio if we were to buy out his contract next year, are you guys saying we would owe him 11.5 million dollars? The way I see it, if it is a mutual option, both parties have to agree in order for the $8 million to be part of any deal. Otherwise a $3.5 million buyout is exactly that, a buyout. Meaning that's all we owe. Can someone hep me out, is this wrong?

The most the sox would pay if they didnt want frank is 3.5 million. If they dont want to him out and he excercizes his option, then they will just pay him whatever he is slated to get under the contract.

Frank is the probably the cheapest player of his calibur in the majors today. He is the heart of the Sox' lineup. He makes the players batting in front of him and behind him better.

Everyone gives him crap that he doesn't deserve. He is the most unfairly treated player in Chicago. You wonder why he gets mad all of the time: it's because people like Manuel and Rogers give him crap all the time that he doesnt deserve.

I used to respect Phil Rogers, but since september or october of last year, I've lost respect for him. This article just puts it over the edge. Let's get rid of Phil Rogers instead of Frank.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Wait a second, under the scenerio if we were to buy out his contract next year, are you guys saying we would owe him 11.5 million dollars? The way I see it, if it is a mutual option, both parties have to agree in order for the $8 million to be part of any deal. Otherwise a $3.5 million buyout is exactly that, a buyout. Meaning that's all we owe. Can someone hep me out, is this wrong?

Frank will get a minimum of $8 million in 2005 as long as he exercises his option to do so. The Sox have no control over that money or his contract unless Frank declines his option.

The additional $3.5 million is the money the Sox will owe Frank if they want to buy him out of his 2006 contract. So they still owe him a minimum of $11.5 million as long as Frank exercises his option after this season.

cheeses_h_rice
02-24-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
The major leagues are full of idiots who say some of the dumbest and most selfish things I've ever heard. Professional sports is full of guys like this. I cannot understand what Frank Thomas could possibly be doing that so upsets the clubhouse, or the team. Does anyone have a story or an example to point out how this guy gets portrayed over and over again as some sort of poison? Either he is one of the biggest - and quietest - jerks in Sport or we've got one hell of a touchy clubhouse.

I wasn't referring to the supposed/rumored "clubhouse cancer" Frank -- I think that probably is a big exaggeration by the media. I'm referring to things like him not returning management's phone calls this offseason, his anger that flashed when he heard Ozzie G. was going to be manager (exercising his option to re-up with the club after it was announced, to stick it in management's face), bitching about his contract, and subtler things like not hanging with Buehrle for more than 10 minutes when they ran into each other at a casino in Vegas. To me, it appears that Frank is getting ready for a big meltdown. The only way I can see him avoiding this is by coming out of the gate hitting over .350, and that just isn't the Frank Thomas of 2004. His hitting will suffer, and with it will go his anger toward management.

This is all my opinion, of course. I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

JRIG
02-24-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I wasn't referring to the supposed/rumored "clubhouse cancer" Frank -- I think that probably is a big exaggeration by the media. I'm referring to things like him not returning management's phone calls this offseason, his anger that flashed when he heard Ozzie G. was going to be manager (exercising his option to re-up with the club after it was announced, to stick it in management's face), bitching about his contract, and subtler things like not hanging with Buehrle for more than 10 minutes when they ran into each other at a casino in Vegas.

Probably 90% of the players on the roster don't even know about such things as the unreturned phone calls or exactly how Frank exercised hin option. The same percentage don't care either.

These guys don't hang on every Phil Rogers column like we do. They don't spend the off-season scouring the web for information about their teammates. For many things like this just don't matter.

jeremyb1
02-24-2004, 11:22 AM
Its a deal worth at least considering if we land Loney and Miller, two of the best prospects in baseball just because those two kids are that good. However, Phil's analysis of how it is that the Dodgers are still interested is non-existent and his reasons for moving Frank are underdeveloped.

poorme
02-24-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its a deal worth at least considering if we land Loney and Miller, two of the best prospects in baseball just because those two kids are that good. However, Phil's analysis of how it is that the Dodgers are still interested is non-existent and his reasons for moving Frank are underdeveloped.

Bingo.

cheeses_h_rice
02-24-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Probably 90% of the players on the roster don't even know about such things as the unreturned phone calls or exactly how Frank exercised hin option. The same percentage don't care either.

These guys don't hang on every Phil Rogers column like we do. They don't spend the off-season scouring the web for information about their teammates. For many things like this just don't matter.

90%? I bet you're off by a significant factor. For one, Frank is the proverbial 800 lb. gorilla in the Sox clubhouse -- he's by far the longest tenured player on the current roster and his shadow looms large over the organization. You don't think that most of the guys on the team are aware of his attitude toward Ozzie and management? And yes, I would agree that most of them don't hang on every word of Chicago columnists like Rogers, but questions *do* get asked during interviews, so they are made aware via other channels.

Deadguy
02-24-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
We're also talking about a player who essentially has removed himself from the "team" aspect of the White Sox organization. I guarantee you Frank will say or do something very stupid and selfish this year that will disrupt the clubhouse and rain down scorn on himself.

Probably right, don't really care. He provides production at a reasonable price, in a sport that is set up under a structure of individual cofrontations between hitters and batters, based under a team concept. This isn't basketball, where a selfish player can put up 50 shots a game, despite having a FG % below 40 %, which can be very detrimental to a team.

BTW, saying something stupid does not necessarilly correlate with poor team chemistry. Does saying something stupid cause Billy Koch to have a dead arm? Does saying something stupid cause Konerko to choke 95% of the time that we need him to come up with a big hit? All it really does it cause negative PR for him and the team, which isn't necessarilly detrimental to the winning percentage of the team.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 12:05 PM
I wasn't referring to the supposed/rumored "clubhouse cancer" Frank -- I think that probably is a big exaggeration by the media.

I have heard consistently for 7 or 8 years that Frank is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and is all about himself. I have heard this from various people, not media. Frank is not difficult to get along with and many guys like being around him personally. But professionally, he is moody, selfish and not good for a team first atmosphere. When he is going good, all is fine. As soon as the first bump in the road comes along, players get the heck away from him because they don't want to deal with him.

This is not a direct quote, but a synopsis of things I have been told over the years, including by some people who shared clubhouse space with Frank.

Take it for what it is worth.

Deadguy
02-24-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I have heard consistently for 7 or 8 years that Frank is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and is all about himself.

Anyone else want to beat the horse to a bloody pulp?

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I have heard consistently for 7 or 8 years that Frank is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and is all about himself. I have heard this from various people, not media. Frank is not difficult to get along with and many guys like being around him personally. But professionally, he is moody, selfish and not good for a team first atmosphere. When he is going good, all is fine. As soon as the first bump in the road comes along, players get the heck away from him because they don't want to deal with him.

This is not a direct quote, but a synopsis of things I have been told over the years, including by some people who shared clubhouse space with Frank.

Take it for what it is worth. I like Frank, and he can help this team get over the hump, but we need him to step up with his leadership abilities. He said it himself a couple years ago as quoted in the Tribune within the last couple days. You can't alienate guys when things aren't going well. That's when we need him the most. Not to be a rah rah guy, but to maintain a positive club house atmospere. We need everyone talking, having fun, and treating each other like a family. Just like Guillen has stated on several occassions. Anyone can make fun of it, but it's exactly the kind of chemistry the Twins have had with a less talented team. We need everyone to help make that happen, and Frank is no exception.

poorme
02-24-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler

This is not a direct quote, but a synopsis of things I have been told over the years, including by some people who shared clubhouse space with Frank.



Did any of these sources explain how their performance had anything to do with Frank Thomas?

Randar68
02-24-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I have heard consistently for 7 or 8 years that Frank is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and is all about himself. I have heard this from various people, not media. Frank is not difficult to get along with and many guys like being around him personally. But professionally, he is moody, selfish and not good for a team first atmosphere. When he is going good, all is fine. As soon as the first bump in the road comes along, players get the heck away from him because they don't want to deal with him.

This is not a direct quote, but a synopsis of things I have been told over the years, including by some people who shared clubhouse space with Frank.

Take it for what it is worth.

And Rauch is a big baby, too, right. Sheesh, nobody is a good guy and nobody is a professional in your world, huh?

Clubhouses are always full of guys who do and don't get along. Frank has been here long enough for many people to have come and gone, and everyone has their own opinions. It is rare that everyone universally will like any certain player. Frank got along great with many players here the past 4 or 5 years, such as Durham and Baldwin.

Finding a few guys here and there willing to complain or talk bad about a player is as common as apple pie. Especially in today's age when nobody is willing to look in the mirror instead of pointing a finger.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Did any of these sources explain how their performance had anything to do with Frank Thomas? It's not about their performances, it's about how the team functions together.

Deadguy
02-24-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I believe it. I like Frank, and he can help this team get over the hump, but we need him to step up with his leadership abilities. He said it himself a couple years ago as quoted in the Tribune within the last couple days.

Alcoholics and drug addicts typically declare that they will strive to remain clean for the rest of their lives, and eventually they regress to the point that they are sucking beer out of ash trays or pawning off their CD collection to purchase an ounce of crack.

Frank probably proclaimed that he'd strive to be a team leader four years ago, and who knows, maybe in April and May of 2000, he made an honest effort. However, eventually he probably regressed and isolated himself, as it is in his introverted nature to do. If you're expecting him to become a leader, you will be left disappointed, and you need to get over the fact that he never will become one, as restructuring your personality over an extended period of time is impossible, without the aid of psychiatric drugs. Thomas is who he is, and should be accepted as such.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Alcoholics and drug addicts typically declare that they will strive to remain clean for the rest of their lives, and eventually they regress to the point that they are sucking beer out of ash trays or pawning off their CD collection to purchase an ounce of crack.

Frank probably proclaimed that he'd strive to be a team leader four years ago, and who knows, maybe in April and May of 2000, he made an honest effort. However, eventually he probably regressed and isolated himself, as it is in his introverted nature to do. If you're expecting hm to become a leader, you will be left disappointed, and you need to get over the fact that he never will become one, as restructuring your personality over an extended period of time is impossible, without the aid of psychiatric drugs. Thomas is who he is, and should be accepted as such. There are different ways to lead. Frank can be the silent leader. All he has to do is be there for his teammates when things are going well and when they aren't. We've seen him do it, I'm just saying it would be nice if he was that way more consistently, which isn't out of the question. It isn't going against his personality, because like I said, we've seen him do it. And not only do I think he can do it, I think after him and Ozzie sit down and get on the same page, and Frank keeps an open mind, I believe he'll do it.

JRIG
02-24-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's not about their performances, it's about how the team functions together.

Wow. And I always thought the point was to win games. I guess it's all about being friends.

After all, you win a lot more games with nice people in the clubhouse than players who put up good stats.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Wow. And I always thought the point was to win games. I guess it's all about being friends.

After all, you win a lot more games with nice people in the clubhouse than players who put up good stats. It's how the team functions together, and that translates into wins.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Did any of these sources explain how their performance had anything to do with Frank Thomas?

How does that have anything to do with my post?

longshot7
02-24-2004, 12:39 PM
Phil, where are you? Explain yourself.

I'm just kidding, but we don't have a color for that. Teal seemed to be off.

Etownsox13
02-24-2004, 12:41 PM
Frank is always going to be Frank. Every team always has a

player who is unwilling to go along with the team concept. It

doesn't matter we have won before with him and we can do it

again.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And Rauch is a big baby, too, right. Sheesh, nobody is a good guy and nobody is a professional in your world, huh?

Clubhouses are always full of guys who do and don't get along. Frank has been here long enough for many people to have come and gone, and everyone has their own opinions. It is rare that everyone universally will like any certain player. Frank got along great with many players here the past 4 or 5 years, such as Durham and Baldwin.

Finding a few guys here and there willing to complain or talk bad about a player is as common as apple pie. Especially in today's age when nobody is willing to look in the mirror instead of pointing a finger.

You believe what you want to believe, but when I hear basically the same thing from multiple sources that do not have a common agenda, I tend to believe it.

There are a lot of great guys in my world, and if you want me to talk nice about people fine, I can do that to. You don't hear rumblings from the clubhouse about Buehrle or Josh Stewart or even Rowand who has a bit of a cockiness about him.

It just so happens that Frank is not considered a "team guy" and Rauch at least was a cocky, arrogant *******.

If you don't want to believe me or can't handle the truth, that is not my problem.

pudge
02-24-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


In Sunday's Trib, Phil wrote an article about how the Sox have potential to win the division and could really make it an exciting summer in this city. Then in Monday's Trib, Phil writes that the Sox should trade their best (or 2nd best) hitter in return for a bunch of minor leaguers who almost certainly would not help the team in '04 and would leave the team with a gaping hole in the middle of the line-up. Huh? Does he think they're contenders or does he think they should be rebuilding? The article struck me as something Rogers spit out without much thought.

That's exactly what I was thinking - if you want this to be an exciting summer in Chicago, it's not going to happen with Ross Gload... It's going to happen with Frank Thomas.

Rogers mentions the "past three years" of being in a winnable division... Excuse me, Frank was injured in 2001, and you can hardly blame 2002 or 2003 on him. Last season he was clutch, one of the most clutch on the team. Blame Konerko, Koch, White or Manuel, but not Frank.

Not Phil's best work.

Randar68
02-24-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You believe what you want to believe, but when I hear basically the same thing from multiple sources that do not have a common agenda, I tend to believe it.

There are a lot of great guys in my world, and if you want me to talk nice about people fine, I can do that to. You don't hear rumblings from the clubhouse about Buehrle or Josh Stewart or even Rowand who has a bit of a cockiness about him.

It just so happens that Frank is not considered a "team guy" and Rauch at least was a cocky, arrogant *******.

If you don't want to believe me or can't handle the truth, that is not my problem.

LMAO. Sure, dude. Rauch is a very self-confident person, and not everyone get's along with that type of personality, but come on. Rowand is cocky, but because you like him, it's ok, despite the fact he has done nothing in his career to deserve that leeway.

Randar68
02-24-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
If you don't want to believe me or can't handle the truth, that is not my problem.

And BTW, former teammates opinions are often not, "the truth" as you say.

Accept what you will, but I am more than capable of handling the truth. Your truth and my truth are not necessarily the same thing, and insinuating such, is being, as you say, "an arrogant *******".

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LMAO. Sure, dude. Rauch is a very self-confident person, and not everyone get's along with that type of personality, but come on. Rowand is cocky, but because you like him, it's ok, despite the fact he has done nothing in his career to deserve that leeway. Rowand doesn't have confrontations with players in the club house, or with the coaches, or management, at least none exposed.

pudge
02-24-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You believe what you want to believe, but when I hear basically the same thing from multiple sources that do not have a common agenda, I tend to believe it.

There are a lot of great guys in my world, and if you want me to talk nice about people fine, I can do that to. You don't hear rumblings from the clubhouse about Buehrle or Josh Stewart or even Rowand who has a bit of a cockiness about him.

It just so happens that Frank is not considered a "team guy" and Rauch at least was a cocky, arrogant *******.

If you don't want to believe me or can't handle the truth, that is not my problem.

Baseball really lends itself to creating self-focused individuals, particuarly when the team is going bad. Frank is a friggin DH, he can't control the pitching, defense, or everyone else's at bats. Griffey was a moody SOB in the Mariners clubhouse, and I'm sure Bonds is too, but the Giants continue to win.

Considering Cowley's recent article on Rauch, I don't doubt he was a bit of an ass when he first started, but you can have a few self-centered people in the clubhouse and still win... I think Rex would agree with that.

hold2dibber
02-24-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And BTW, former teammates opinions are often not, "the truth" as you say.

Accept what you will, but I am more than capable of handling the truth. Your truth and my truth are not necessarily the same thing, and insinuating such, is being, as you say, "an arrogant *******".

Don't take the bait, Rex. Just walk away.

All Rex did in his first post is report what he's heard and then said "take it for what it's worth". So you don't think it's worth much - fine. Can we just leave it at that instead of devolving into another double-tomato pissing match?

Randar68
02-24-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Don't take the bait, Rex. Just walk away.

All Rex did in his first post is report what he's heard and then said "take it for what it's worth". So you don't think it's worth much - fine. Can we just leave it at that instead of devolving into another double-tomato pissing match?

Didn't mean for it to go as such. I was simply making a statement towards a trend of bashing players due to their personalities as opposed to their abilities.

The Cubs were a couple outs from the World Series last year with Sammy Sosa on their team. If that doesn't prove that obnoxious, arrogant, Salsa-playing clubhouse pains in the butt don't prevent you from winning or from being a good team, then nothing does.

Rex's personal attacks on players is out of bounds, IMO. While I don't particularly like Rowand as an option in CF, have I ever attacked him based on the heresy of what a few people have thought about him as a person? It has no bearing on the DISCUSSION.

End of story.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Rex's personal attacks on players is out of bounds, IMO. While I don't particularly like Rowand as an option in CF, have I ever attacked him based on the heresy of what a few people have thought about him as a person? It has no bearing on the DISCUSSION.

End of story. First of all, Rowand gets along with almost everyone on the team, including Frank. If Frank comes into ST, with no distractions affecting the team, and just wants to play, then there isn't a problem. If this becomes our team's focus, it most certainly has bearing. Winning cures all, but the team needs to be on the same page. Frank may very well provide that attitude and get down with Ozzie's system, which would be great. We just don't know until, hopefully tomorrow. This is all premature until then. However, Frank and Rowand are a poor comparison.

Randar68
02-24-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
First of all, Rowand gets along with almost everyone on the team, including Frank. If Frank comes into ST, with no distractions affecting the team, and just wants to play, then there isn't a problem. If this becomes our team's focus, it most certainly has bearing. Winning cures all, but the team needs to be on the same page. Frank may very well provide that attitude and get down with Ozzie's system, which would be great. We just don't know until, hopefully tomorrow. This is all premature until then. However, Frank and Rowand are a poor comparison.

He's the damn DH, what page does he have to be on?

poorme
02-24-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's the damn DH, what page does he have to be on?

The page written by Mark Grace on "How to Kiss the Media's Ass."

hold2dibber
02-24-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
First of all, Rowand gets along with almost everyone on the team, including Frank. If Frank comes into ST, with no distractions affecting the team, and just wants to play, then there isn't a problem. If this becomes our team's focus, it most certainly has bearing. Winning cures all, but the team needs to be on the same page. Frank may very well provide that attitude and get down with Ozzie's system, which would be great. We just don't know until, hopefully tomorrow. This is all premature until then. However, Frank and Rowand are a poor comparison.

Good grief. Just because the media gets into a frenzy about something doesn't mean (a) that the team is in a frenzy; or (b) the frenzy has any affect on the field.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He's the damn DH, what page does he have to be on? The team's page in general. If he was just the DH and whatever he says or however he acts doesn't matter, this never would have been a discussion in the first place. He's more than the DH, he is a leader of this ball club, whether he accepts the role or not. Although he has been quoted to want that type of role in the Tribune. If he isn't on the same page as the rest of the team, then problems and distractions can occur, and that's how you fall apart over a 162 game season.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Good grief. Just because the media gets into a frenzy about something doesn't mean (a) that the team is in a frenzy; or (b) the frenzy has any affect on the field. I don't believe the Sox are in a frenzy. In fact, I think Frank will step up. However, to ignore concerns with the hope or logic that it won't neccessarily affect the team on the field is wishful. If this weren't a concern, it wouldn't even be discussed. That's also why Ozzie intends to talk with Frank right away, in order to resolve any distractions before they develop into further concerns. Something JM would have ignored, with the hopes of letting it blow over.

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 03:00 PM
Rex's personal attacks on players is out of bounds, IMO. While I don't particularly like Rowand as an option in CF, have I ever attacked him based on the heresy of what a few people have thought about him as a person? It has no bearing on the DISCUSSION.

Randar, I am not sure what your problem is, but all I am doing is adding to the discussion. If you don't agree with me, fine, but let's not act like there is a pattern developing here. I have made comments you didn't like about two players. The comments I have made were made only because they have been echoed by many others. I never discussed Frank's ability on the field because that was not pertinent here. I was merely stating that I have in fact heard many of the same things you read in the media and have heard them from different sources, at different times over several years.

If that is out of bounds, then let's just make this a "kiss every player's arse" site, because nothing negative is allowed. Or is it just nothing negative allowed that you don't like?

Randar68
02-24-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Randar, I am not sure what your problem is, but all I am doing is adding to the discussion. If you don't agree with me, fine, but let's not act like there is a pattern developing here. I have made comments you didn't like about two players. The comments I have made were made only because they have been echoed by many others. I never discussed Frank's ability on the field because that was not pertinent here. I was merely stating that I have in fact heard many of the same things you read in the media and have heard them from different sources, at different times over several years.

If that is out of bounds, then let's just make this a "kiss every player's arse" site, because nothing negative is allowed. Or is it just nothing negative allowed that you don't like?

You have, IMO, gone out of your way in the past to criticize Rauch's character and it seemed to me to be similar to what you were now bringing up in regards to Frank.

You will be able to find a large number of players in EVERY clubhouse who don't get along with some other players. It is inevitable when you put 25 guys from different backgrounds and make them spend this much time together for 8-9 months out of the year.

IMO, it's not something that affects the field performance as long as everyone goes out on the field as professionals and puts forth their maximum effort as Frank has done his entire career. Clubhouse factions or clique's haven't stopped teams from winning for the past 100 years, and I doubt they'll start now.

Baseball isn't, "I hope everyone in my clubhouse is my best friend," it's W and L's. Keep the love-fest on the North Side.

:barney&sham

Randar68
02-24-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I have heard consistently for 7 or 8 years that Frank is a pain in the ass in the clubhouse and is all about himself. I have heard this from various people, not media. Frank is not difficult to get along with and many guys like being around him personally. But professionally, he is moody, selfish and not good for a team first atmosphere. When he is going good, all is fine. As soon as the first bump in the road comes along, players get the heck away from him because they don't want to deal with him.

This is not a direct quote, but a synopsis of things I have been told over the years, including by some people who shared clubhouse space with Frank.

Take it for what it is worth.


And for the record, how did this support your assertion that Frank is a big clubhouse cancer and that the magnitude of any clubhouse atmosphere he destroys hasn't been greatly magnified by the media, as you were responding to when you made this post?

If a guy doesn't get pissed and take it personal when he struggles, he isn't going to amount to much, IMO. As a teammate, I'll take someone who cares about his contribution to the team enough to get pissed about it over Pauly and Koch shrugging their shoulders and cracking another joke about how terrible they are.

maurice
02-24-2004, 04:52 PM
Returning to the topic of the thread . . .

This is really weak reporting. Of the relatively few articles devoted to the Sox, probably 60+% of them have something negative to say about the guy who was the best hitter in Chicago last year. That's obscene. Frank deserves more respect. Granted, the Chicago media is not known for originality, but I expect more than this redundant crap from a WSI poster.

soxtalker
02-24-2004, 05:13 PM
While I'd miss Frank, I would welcome such a trade. I think that we need those near-term prospects. On Frank's side, I think that this could be a great deal for him. He would have to play 1B, which will help his chances of the HOF. And I think that hitting in a big ball park like Dodger Stadium would work to Frank's advantage (provided he can be persuaded to go back to driving the ball to all fields).

Of course, as pointed out in another thread, it looks like the Dodgers may no longer be interested.

steff
02-24-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Rowand doesn't have confrontations with players in the club house, or with the coaches, or management, at least none exposed.



"none exposed" being the key phrase there. You think ALL of them DON'T have issues with eachother and haven't called those issues out..? You can't be that naive.. can you?

steff
02-24-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
First of all, Rowand gets along with almost everyone on the team, including Frank. If Frank comes into ST, with no distractions affecting the team, and just wants to play, then there isn't a problem. If this becomes our team's focus, it most certainly has bearing. Winning cures all, but the team needs to be on the same page. Frank may very well provide that attitude and get down with Ozzie's system, which would be great. We just don't know until, hopefully tomorrow. This is all premature until then. However, Frank and Rowand are a poor comparison.


What did I tell you about this...??

You don't know ANYTHING about how these guys interact and who their friends are. Does your rear hurt from all that talking out of it..? :D:

steff
02-24-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't believe the Sox are in a frenzy. In fact, I think Frank will step up. However, to ignore concerns with the hope or logic that it won't neccessarily affect the team on the field is wishful. If this weren't a concern, it wouldn't even be discussed. That's also why Ozzie intends to talk with Frank right away, in order to resolve any distractions before they develop into further concerns. Something JM would have ignored, with the hopes of letting it blow over.


And now you know what Ozzie intends to do...? Oye ve...

sas1974
02-24-2004, 05:35 PM
Has anyone stopped to think about how long Frank has been with us? In a day and age where guys jump from team to team like the club house was on fire, Frank has actually remained LOYAL to the team that brought him up. How rare is that? Everyone made a big deal about Gwynn and Ripken(not comparing him to them personality-wise) staying with their teams, but no one seems to care that Frank has done it. They are trying to push him out the door the first chance they get.

I am not crying, "Oh poor Frank." He has done a few things to bring some heat on himself, but some of the other stuff is so far overblown it's ridiculous.

Frank has been the same guy year in and year out, for better or worse. He's been loyal to this team, this city and it's fans(even you people that are getting in line to by his plane ticket to LA) for 14 years. I want to see Frank retire in Silver and Black. The way that Fisk never got to. The way that Ozzie never got to. He deserves to be honored for his years of service ON THE FIELD, not ridiculed because he didn't return a phone call. So get over it. Get off of his back. And enjoy the 450ft moon shots that he's going to lauch this year on the South Side while he's still around.

steff
02-24-2004, 05:36 PM
P.S... Rex is a POS poster and knows nothing!! :D:

Randar68
02-24-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by steff
What did I tell you about this...??

You don't know ANYTHING about how these guys interact and who their friends are. Does your rear hurt from all that talking out of it..? :D:

LMAO!!! Steff, I love when you come into the end of one of these threads with those Zingers! Man, you had me rolling on that one...

steff
02-24-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
LMAO!!! Steff, I love when you come into the end of one of these threads with those Zingers! Man, you had me rolling on that one...


Just doing my part to increase the entertainment value of the boards.. :D:

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by steff
P.S... Rex is a POS poster and knows nothing!! :D:

Coming from you Steff, that makes me all warm and tingly. ;-)

Rex Hudler
02-24-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And for the record, how did this support your assertion that Frank is a big clubhouse cancer and that the magnitude of any clubhouse atmosphere he destroys hasn't been greatly magnified by the media, as you were responding to when you made this post?

If a guy doesn't get pissed and take it personal when he struggles, he isn't going to amount to much, IMO. As a teammate, I'll take someone who cares about his contribution to the team enough to get pissed about it over Pauly and Koch shrugging their shoulders and cracking another joke about how terrible they are.

Obviously you don't get it, nor do you want to. I'll stick to my guns here, but end this conversation because it is going nowhere. If you want to feel like you won, be my guest, I'll concede.

pearso66
02-24-2004, 07:50 PM
Frank has always been a player who kept to himself. He won't change over night and become a vocal leader, he will probably always keep to himself. I dont remember hearing too much about him chewing out teamates or getting into fights, except the manuel tiff, without being called out first. To me it seems some people go out of their way to make him look bad. Konerko had no right to call him out last year. If he gets all pissy because he is in a slump, good, as someone said, he should be. He works hard to play well. He wants to be in the HOF more than anything, so he's going to get his numbers. And if he's putting up the type of numbers he is capable of, the team is going to win. To me that is the type of player I want. I don't care if he isn't buddy buddy with everyone on the team. He produces, and thats what he is paid to do. He isnt paid to be a cheerleader. I for one want frank here, and will state that we NEED Frank here to have any chance in competing. Just about every year since he's come up, this team has been in competition. What's wrong with that?

I know this seems messy and hard to understand, but I've always had problems getting my thoughts down on paper, or this case, the computer

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by steff
"none exposed" being the key phrase there. You think ALL of them DON'T have issues with eachother and haven't called those issues out..? You can't be that naive.. can you? Well if you know of something, please share. If you don't and are just assuming that with no information, then you are the one being naive.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by steff
What did I tell you about this...??

You don't know ANYTHING about how these guys interact and who their friends are. Does your rear hurt from all that talking out of it..? :D: Break it down Steff, who is friends with who? I know Frank and Rowand are friends. I know Buerhle and Loaiza are friends. A lot of these guys are friends and it isn't neccessarily priveledged information. So if it is some big secret that Rowand is enemies with everyone, with Frank being the exception, please provide some examples of why you feel this way. All you do is say I'm wrong about everything because you know people. That's great Steff, but unfortunately that in and of itself is a weak argument.

SEALgep
02-24-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by steff
And now you know what Ozzie intends to do...? Oye ve... Ya, because he said so, lol. :smile:

A. Cavatica
02-24-2004, 08:28 PM
Does anyone besides me see the hypocrisy of a Reinsdorf-led organization undervaluing Frank because he's an alleged "clubhouse cancer"? I thought he actively pursued those guys: Everett, R. Alomar, Canseco, Belle, Cordero, Navarro. Dennis Rodman.

Ozzie was more of a clubhouse cancer in his last season with the Sox than Frank has ever been.

Randar68
02-24-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Obviously you don't get it, nor do you want to. I'll stick to my guns here, but end this conversation because it is going nowhere. If you want to feel like you won, be my guest, I'll concede.

won? huh? I wasn't even arguing for the most part, but expressing my opinion that your trashing of the players is not conducive to ANYTHING. I guess you just can't answer the question. Grow up.

Gumshoe
02-25-2004, 12:45 AM
Frank isn't getting any better in any of these years, and we have far more to gain by letting him go. Rogers is once again right on the money. I could give a crap about Franks' production. Yeah, last year he put up power, but his average will continue to drop and if you think he isn't a clubhouse detriment I really don't think you have been watching the White Sox for the past 8 years. He was fine when other guys were here that were true leaders, like the Venturas of the early 90s. Plus, he was young. Let's just try something different and be more flexible. Frank gives you NO flexibility in defining a team and its style of play.

Gumshoe

sas1974
02-25-2004, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Frank isn't getting any better in any of these years, and we have far more to gain by letting him go. Rogers is once again right on the money. I could give a crap about Franks' production. Yeah, last year he put up power, but his average will continue to drop and if you think he isn't a clubhouse detriment I really don't think you have been watching the White Sox for the past 8 years. He was fine when other guys were here that were true leaders, like the Venturas of the early 90s. Plus, he was young. Let's just try something different and be more flexible. Frank gives you NO flexibility in defining a team and its style of play.

Gumshoe

Yes, Frank gives you no flexibility bc all he does is produce results. What negative things did we hear about Frank last year? I would prefer examples w/ some evidence behind them, not the crap that people on here like to spout like it's from the mouth of God.

steff
02-25-2004, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Break it down Steff, who is friends with who? I know Frank and Rowand are friends. I know Buerhle and Loaiza are friends. A lot of these guys are friends and it isn't neccessarily priveledged information. So if it is some big secret that Rowand is enemies with everyone, with Frank being the exception, please provide some examples of why you feel this way. All you do is say I'm wrong about everything because you know people. That's great Steff, but unfortunately that in and of itself is a weak argument.


From the horses mouth is, in and of itself, a pretty strong argument.

And why are you so damn nosey about who these guys are and aren't friends with...? Your obsession is disturbing.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by steff
From the horses mouth is, in and of itself, a pretty strong argument.

And why are you so damn nosey about who these guys are and aren't friends with...? Your obsession is disturbing. Lol- way to try to divert the question. You attack my points, and then when I call you out on trying to explain why I'm wrong, you get defensive. This is getting old, Steff, can we just end this style of behavior? :smile:

steff
02-25-2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol- way to try to divert the question. You attack my points, and then when I call you out on trying to explain why I'm wrong, you get defensive. This is getting old, Steff, can we just end this style of behavior? :smile:


I'm not attacking you at all.

You are nosey. Asking me questions about things that are NONE of your business. I asked you HOW you know everyone is great friends.. answer is, you don't. I gave no information - because that would be RUDE and IGNORANT to break confidence. I'm not telling you anything, and your constant asking is getting boring. Move on. Accept that you don't know **** and that your simply posting an OPINION. Which.. by the way.. everyone has. Many people here know me and my connection with people and those facts are good enough for them. Don't believe me.. I don't care. But stop asking me to answer questions that are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It's IGNORANT!

hold2dibber
02-25-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Frank isn't getting any better in any of these years, and we have far more to gain by letting him go. Rogers is once again right on the money. I could give a crap about Franks' production. Yeah, last year he put up power, but his average will continue to drop and if you think he isn't a clubhouse detriment I really don't think you have been watching the White Sox for the past 8 years. He was fine when other guys were here that were true leaders, like the Venturas of the early 90s. Plus, he was young. Let's just try something different and be more flexible. Frank gives you NO flexibility in defining a team and its style of play.

Gumshoe

C'mon Gumshoe, if you're going to argue that the Sox are better off "letting him go" you've got to do better than that. You appear to be arguing that just getting rid of him, even for little or nothing in return, would be a good idea. And you back it up by saying ... well, first you say you don't give a crap about his production. So, apparently, when evaluating a player's worth, his on-the-field production means absolutely nothing to you? I'm glad you're not the GM!

Then you say "he was fine when other guys were true leaders." Again, you're arguing that since the Sox don't have any true leaders now, they should jettison their 1st or 2nd best hitter (for nothing!). I get it, so then we'd have no leaders AND no production! Again, I'm glad you're not the GM.

How about this instead - since Frank's production is still quite good, and since his salary is pretty low as compared to his production, why not bring in some good leaders! Leaders are a hell of a lot cheaper than guys who can actually play - and I'm not being facetious here. If you really think Frank is fine if the team has better leadership, wouldn't it make more sense to bring in some good leaders than to dump one of the best players on the team?

Your post is simply nuts. It makes no sense at all and reveals a strong personal bias against Frank, which, IMHO, destroys your credibility on this topic.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by steff
I'm not attacking you at all.

You are nosey. Asking me questions about things that are NONE of your business. I asked you HOW you know everyone is great friends.. answer is, you don't. I gave no information - because that would be RUDE and IGNORANT to break confidence. I'm not telling you anything, and your constant asking is getting boring. Move on. Accept that you don't know **** and that your simply posting an OPINION. Which.. by the way.. everyone has. Many people here know me and my connection with people and those facts are good enough for them. Don't believe me.. I don't care. But stop asking me to answer questions that are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It's IGNORANT! Lol Steff, calm down. I never argued about the majority of the things I post are my opinions. I just have a problem with you telling me my opinion is wrong, and when I ask why, you say I am ignorant, nosey, and obsessed. You don't have to tell us anything you feel will jeopardize peoples' confidence in you, but I don't see how "who is friends with who" applies, but the only reason I even asked was because you said I was wrong about not comparing Rowand and Thomas (which has nothing to do with them being friends). However, they are friends, it's known. You can say I don't know, but I do. We can continue this childishness back and forth, but if you recognize that what I say is indeed my opinion, why are you fighting it so much. Let it be, unless you are going to argue it properly, which includes reasoning why you have your position.

Randar68
02-25-2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol Steff, calm down. I never argued about the majority of the things I post are my opinions. I just have a problem with you telling me my opinion is wrong, and when I ask why, you say I am ignorant, nosey, and obsessed. You don't have to tell us anything you feel will jeopardize peoples' confidence in you, but I don't see how "who is friends with who" applies, but the only reason I even asked was because you said I was wrong about not comparing Rowand and Thomas (which has nothing to do with them being friends). However, they are friends, it's known. You can say I don't know, but I do. We can continue this childishness back and forth, but if you recognize that what I say is indeed my opinion, why are you fighting it so much. Let it be, unless you are going to argue it properly, which includes reasoning why you have your position.

Frankly, the repetitious nature of your posts and the fact that you keep pressing this is the only childish part of this.

Steff has earned her stripes her and her connections are accepted. She is saying you are WRONG because she is in the know. You are not. Because she doesn't come out and say player XYZ said "blah blah blah" to you doesn't make her assertion any less valid, IMO.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Frankly, the repetitious nature of your posts and the fact that you keep pressing this is the only childish part of this.

Steff has earned her stripes her and her connections are accepted. She is saying you are WRONG because she is in the know. You are not. Because she doesn't come out and say player XYZ said "blah blah blah" to you doesn't make her assertion any less valid, IMO. No what makes her assertion less valid is that she doesn't explain why I'm wrong or what her view is. It's just that I'm ignorant, nosey, and obsessed with nothing else added to it. Explain yourself in a calm manner and have a discussion, not just accusations. Everyone's opinion is valid, I don't care who you know. They are opinions and by definition, they can't be proved wrong.

Randar68
02-25-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
No what makes her assertion less valid is that she doesn't explain why I'm wrong or what her view is. It's just that I'm ignorant, nosey, and obsessed with nothing else added to it. Explain yourself in a calm manner and have a discussion, not just accusations. Everyone's opinion is valid, I don't care who you know. They are opinions and by definition, they can't be proved wrong.

I hope you aren't really this dense in real life.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I hope you aren't really this dense in real life. I hope you don't have to result to insults to get your point across in other aspects of your life. Are we done now?

steff
02-25-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol Steff, calm down. I never argued about the majority of the things I post are my opinions. I just have a problem with you telling me my opinion is wrong, and when I ask why, you say I am ignorant, nosey, and obsessed. You don't have to tell us anything you feel will jeopardize peoples' confidence in you, but I don't see how "who is friends with who" applies, but the only reason I even asked was because you said I was wrong about not comparing Rowand and Thomas (which has nothing to do with them being friends). However, they are friends, it's known. You can say I don't know, but I do. We can continue this childishness back and forth, but if you recognize that what I say is indeed my opinion, why are you fighting it so much. Let it be, unless you are going to argue it properly, which includes reasoning why you have your position.

Where did I tell you your opinion was wrong? You made a comment.. in the form of a fact ("Frank doesn't do this and that and he needs to step up") I asked you how you came to that conclusion, and challenged it with the FACT that I know whom you are talking about. You said Frank doesn't do things in the clubhouse. I asked "how do you know?" You said him and others are friends.. I asked "how do you know?" I never disputed who Frank is or is not friends with. Not once. Simply asked you... how do you know. Point is.. YOU DON'T.
YOU asked me for information.. YOU did. Over and over again YOU asked me SPECIFIC questions. I refused. Those things are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You continued to ask. Nosey. Obsessed. I think it fits.
Now.. when you want to pose your comments as opinions and not as facts I'll stop. Until then you WILL NOT post bull**** damaging to the character of a person I know and not get a comment about it from me. I would do this for ANY person I personally know, and I thank those who have supported me over my years on this board.
Bottom line is that you have NO GROUNDS to make comments on things that Frank does or does not do IN THE CLUBHOUSE because YOU DON'T know. That's what YOU are wrong about. And that's a fact.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by steff
Where did I tell you your opinion was wrong? You made a comment.. in the form of a fact ("Frank doesn't do this and that and he needs to step up") I asked you how you came to that conclusion, and challenged it with the FACT that I know whom you are talking about. You said Frank doesn't do things in the clubhouse. I asked "how do you know?" You said him and others are friends.. I asked "how do you know?" I never disputed who Frank is or is not friends with. Not once. Simply asked you... how do you know. Point is.. YOU DON'T.
YOU asked me for information.. YOU did. Over and over again YOU asked me SPECIFIC questions. I refused. Those things are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You continued to ask. Nosey. Obsessed. I think it fits.
Now.. when you want to pose your comments as opinions and not as facts I'll stop. Until then you WILL NOT post bull**** damaging to the character of a person I know and not get a comment about it from me. I would do this for ANY person I personally know, and I thank those who have supported me over my years on this board.
Bottom line is that you have NO GROUNDS to make comments on things that Frank does or does not do IN THE CLUBHOUSE because YOU DON'T know. That's what YOU are wrong about. And that's a fact. I have the right to my opinion as I have expressed. If you take exception to that, that is your right. I never claimed anything as fact, and if you do not add anything to the discussion, then there is no reason to deviate from my reasoning. I feel Frank knows what he needs to do, and it is evident with what he has said yesterday, and what he will reiterate today. So far, I haven't been wrong. Maybe disagreeable, but nothing has been presented to say that I am wrong. I like Frank very much, and I wasn't bashing him. I hold Frank in high regard, as I have stated, and I also hold him to a high standard. I said I believe Frank will step up and be a leader for this team in his own way, and in my opinion, that's what we are seeing. I respect your opinion, but the question is, can you respect mine?

steff
02-25-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I have the right to my opinion as I have expressed. If you take exception to that, that is your right. I never claimed anything as fact, and if you do not add anything to the discussion, then there is no reason to deviate from my reasoning. I feel Frank knows what he needs to do, and it is evident with what he has said yesterday, and what he will reiterate today. So far, I haven't been wrong. Maybe disagreeable, but nothing has been presented to say that I am wrong. I like Frank very much, and I wasn't bashing him. I hold Frank in high regard, as I have stated, and I also hold him to a high standard. I said I believe Frank will step up and be a leader for this team in his own way, and in my opinion, that's what we are seeing. I respect your opinion, but the question is, can you respect mine?


Yep, you do.

Yes, you did.

Perhaps you should read over this thread again. It's obvious you've forgotten a lot of things you've posted.

You're backpedaling, and now lies, prove your cause here.

I have all the confidence that the "boys" will take care of things should this become a problem.

JC456
02-25-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
C'mon Gumshoe, if you're going to argue that the Sox are better off "letting him go" you've got to do better than that. You appear to be arguing that just getting rid of him, even for little or nothing in return, would be a good idea. And you back it up by saying ... well, first you say you don't give a crap about his production. So, apparently, when evaluating a player's worth, his on-the-field production means absolutely nothing to you? I'm glad you're not the GM!

Then you say "he was fine when other guys were true leaders." Again, you're arguing that since the Sox don't have any true leaders now, they should jettison their 1st or 2nd best hitter (for nothing!). I get it, so then we'd have no leaders AND no production! Again, I'm glad you're not the GM.

How about this instead - since Frank's production is still quite good, and since his salary is pretty low as compared to his production, why not bring in some good leaders! Leaders are a hell of a lot cheaper than guys who can actually play - and I'm not being facetious here. If you really think Frank is fine if the team has better leadership, wouldn't it make more sense to bring in some good leaders than to dump one of the best players on the team?

Your post is simply nuts. It makes no sense at all and reveals a strong personal bias against Frank, which, IMHO, destroys your credibility on this topic.

I don't understand what you're so upset about. Isn't gumshoe entitled to believe what he wants to believe? He/she doesn't think Frank needs to be on the Sox for them to be competitive. So what? Why does that bother you so much? It's not like gumshoe can actually make a deal.

I'm reading like you want to change his/her point of view. With statements like: How about this.....

What are you so afraid of with this paricular point of view? What, someone actually agreeing with gumshoe and that isn't allowed?

Iwritecode
02-25-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by steff
I have all the confidence that the "boys" will take care of things should this become a problem.

:sopranos

Is this guy bothering you? You need us to "take care of him"?

Iwritecode
02-25-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I don't understand what you're so upset about. Isn't holddibber2 entitled to believe what he wants to believe? He/she doesn't think Frank needs to be on the Sox for them to be competitive. So what? Why does that bother you so much? It's not like holddibber2 can actually make a deal.

I'm reading like you want to change his/her point of view. With statements like: How about this.....

What are you so afraid of with this paricular point of view? What, someone actually agreeing with holddibber2 and that isn't allowed?

That was kind of difficult to follow. Did you quote the wrong post or something?

Randar68
02-25-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I don't understand what you're so upset about. Isn't holddibber2 entitled to believe what he wants to believe? He/she doesn't think Frank needs to be on the Sox for them to be competitive. So what? Why does that bother you so much? It's not like holddibber2 can actually make a deal.

I'm reading like you want to change his/her point of view. With statements like: How about this.....

What are you so afraid of with this paricular point of view? What, someone actually agreeing with holddibber2 and that isn't allowed?



:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

mantis1212
02-25-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I have the right to my opinion as I have expressed. If you take exception to that, that is your right. I never claimed anything as fact, and if you do not add anything to the discussion, then there is no reason to deviate from my reasoning. I feel Frank knows what he needs to do, and it is evident with what he has said yesterday, and what he will reiterate today. So far, I haven't been wrong. Maybe disagreeable, but nothing has been presented to say that I am wrong. I like Frank very much, and I wasn't bashing him. I hold Frank in high regard, as I have stated, and I also hold him to a high standard. I said I believe Frank will step up and be a leader for this team in his own way, and in my opinion, that's what we are seeing. I respect your opinion, but the question is, can you respect mine?

SEAL, I think I have the solution. If you just put "IN MY OPINION" in your signature, everyone will stop jumping on your back!

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by steff
Yep, you do.

Yes, you did.

Perhaps you should read over this thread again. It's obvious you've forgotten a lot of things you've posted.

You're backpedaling, and now lies, prove your cause here.

I have all the confidence that the "boys" will take care of things should this become a problem. I never bad mouthed Frank. I said we need him to step up as a leader, and that I believe that he will. Check back over the entire thread. Maybe you interpreted something negative, but if you have trouble with anything I present, we can simply discuss it. This form of discussion that we seem to get ourselves into are growing tiresome. Let's simply discuss and stay on topic. I have no doubt that you want the same, so let's try harder. What do you say?

JC456
02-25-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
That was kind of difficult to follow. Did you quote the wrong post or something?

I'm bad. Sorry about that. I looked at the wrong posted by. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I corrected it.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
SEAL, I think I have the solution. If you just put "IN MY OPINION" in your signature, everyone will stop jumping on your back! Lol. How can I do that?

steff
02-25-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I never bad mouthed Frank. I said we need him to step up as a leader, and that I believe that he will. Check back over the entire thread. Maybe you interpreted something negative, but if you have trouble with anything I present, we can simply discuss it. This form of discussion that we seem to get ourselves into are growing tiresome. Let's simply discuss and stay on topic. I have no doubt that you want the same, so let's try harder. What do you say?


Yes you did.
And no.. your exact comment was that "Frank does not step up", and went on to comment about his clubhouse actions.
I interpreted it exactly the way you posted it.
I say the fact that I have been here since nearly the begining of time and NEVER, EVER had an issue like this and you've been here a month and have had 2 handfulls of confrontation speaks for itself.

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by steff
Yes you did.
And no.. your exact comment was that "Frank does not step up", and went on to comment about his clubhouse actions.
I interpreted it exactly the way you posted it.
I say the fact that I have been here since nearly the begining of time and NEVER, EVER had an issue like this and you've been here a month and have had 2 handfulls of confrontation speaks for itself. My exact comment, you wouldn't mind finding that actual quote for me would you?

steff
02-25-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
My exact comment, you wouldn't mind finding that actual quote for me would you?

Here ya go. It's in there several times.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29350&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I especially love the part where at the start of the thread you call Frank a "bad clubhouse guy".. then on page 6 you completely change your tune...
You said he does not or needs to "step up" several times.
You claim several times that he battles with his teamates, coaches, etc.. in the clubhouse.

The negative comments go on, and on, and on...

steff
02-25-2004, 03:55 PM
:D:

ode to veeck
02-25-2004, 03:56 PM
Just doing my part to increase the entertainment value of the boards..

Beats the heck out of all the BS Frank bashing around here ...

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by steff
Here ya go. It's in there several times.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29350&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I especially love the part where at the start of the thread you call Frank a "bad clubhouse guy".. then on page 6 you completely change your tune...
You said he does not or needs to "step up" several times.
You claim several times that he battles with his teamates, coaches, etc.. in the clubhouse.

The negative comments go on, and on, and on... First of all you said in this thread, so that was inaccurate. Second of all, I said Frank had instances of being considered a bad club house guy, but I never said he was a bad club house guy. I said he needs to step up as a leader, and that I believe he will. He's already shown this. There are numerous accounts of me saying this, but you choose to ignore it. Frank hasn't always been the perfect teammate, and this Dodger talk had a lot of people confused to how he feels towards this team and organization in general. He has come in and resolved any confusion, what happened in the past no longer has bearing, we are starting fresh. The air has been cleared and we can move forward with Frank on board. I'm excited about it, and I'm not going to let you ruin it for me. The season will be here before you know it, I can't wait.

hold2dibber
02-25-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I don't understand what you're so upset about. Isn't gumshoe entitled to believe what he wants to believe? He/she doesn't think Frank needs to be on the Sox for them to be competitive. So what? Why does that bother you so much? It's not like gumshoe can actually make a deal.

What are you talking about? Of course Gumshoe is entitled to believe what he wants to believe - but people post opinions here with the understanding and even the expectation that others will comment on those opinions. That's what I did. I'm not upset by what Gumshoe said - he expressed an opinion that I found to be unreasonable and illogical, so I pointed out why it was unreasonable and not well-thought-out. If Gumshoe (or anyone else) doesn't think Frank needs to be on the team for the Sox to be competitive, that's fine, but back it up with some rationale - Gumshoe's only rationale was that regardless of Frank's production, he's a detriment to the team because the team doesn't have strong leadership in the clubhouse. I exposed the fallacy in that thinking. What upsets you so much about that?

What are you so afraid of with this paricular point of view? What, someone actually agreeing with gumshoe and that isn't allowed?

Good grief. Where do you get this stuff? If I disagree with Gumshoe's opinion and point out the illogic in his thinking, all the sudden I have a problem with anyone ever agreeing with him about anything? Give me a break. I have agreed with Gumshoe on occassion in the past (and disagreed with him as well). Why do you have a knee-jerk need to defend Gumshoe (who, in my experience, is pretty good at defending himself and who has pretty thick skin)? And more importantly, I note that in your "defense" of him, you make absolutely no attempt to contradict my criticism of his post - perhaps because you can't?

santo=dorf
02-25-2004, 04:11 PM
:tomatoaward

maurice
02-25-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
this Dodger talk had a lot of people confused to how he feels towards this team and organization in general.

Why would somebody else talking about trading Frank to the Dodgers create confusion re. how Frank feels towards the Sox? It's simply a reflection of how the Chicago media (and KW) feel towards Frank.

Please don't believe all the hearsay and other crap you read in the papers, particularly when no Frank quotes are included.

Dadawg_77
02-25-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by steff
:D:

This should be a tag

steff
02-25-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
First of all you said in this thread, so that was inaccurate. Second of all, I said Frank had instances of being considered a bad club house guy, but I never said he was a bad club house guy. I said he needs to step up as a leader, and that I believe he will. He's already shown this. There are numerous accounts of me saying this, but you choose to ignore it. Frank hasn't always been the perfect teammate, and this Dodger talk had a lot of people confused to how he feels towards this team and organization in general. He has come in and resolved any confusion, what happened in the past no longer has bearing, we are starting fresh. The air has been cleared and we can move forward with Frank on board. I'm excited about it, and I'm not going to let you ruin it for me. The season will be here before you know it, I can't wait.

Bla, bla, bla... go read the thread and stop backpedaling. You got caught bull****ting plain and simple.

And just for you...

The Dodger talk was all lies. :D:

steff
02-25-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
This should be a tag



I agree..


By the way PHG.. where's my new 2004 supporter thingy..?? Check your PayPal account lately...?? :?:

SEALgep
02-25-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by steff
Bla, bla, bla... go read the thread and stop backpedaling. You got caught bull****ting plain and simple.

And just for you...

The Dodger talk was all lies. :D: I guess we're done now? I hope so anyway, I am sick of having to repeat myself in order to clarify your bull****ting. Oh and about the Dodger talk, we all figured that out by now, so thanks anyway for your exclusive. :D:

JC456
02-25-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What are you talking about? If Gumshoe (or anyone else) doesn't think Frank needs to be on the team for the Sox to be competitive, that's fine, but back it up with some rationale - Gumshoe's only rationale was that regardless of Frank's production, he's a detriment to the team because the team doesn't have strong leadership in the clubhouse. I exposed the fallacy in that thinking. What upsets you so much about that?

Just why does he/ she have to back up his opinion. It is an opinion. If he/she believes Frank is a detriment, then that is what he/ she believes.

It's like why one likes the Sox and one likes the Cubs. Both just do. And there are probably many reasons why they hate the other team as well.

And more importantly, I note that in your "defense" of him, you make absolutely no attempt to contradict my criticism of his post - perhaps because you can't?

I'm not saying he can't defend himself, it just seems to me he/she made a statement of how he/she felt about Frank being on the team and automatically there is something wrong with that thinking.

I don't see why I must comment on your position. My only point was everyone has a right to opinion, and there seems to be some on this board who feel threatened by an opinion on a message board. Like someone on this board can actually make Frank just disappear, or influence management. I don't think that is at all possible.

Do you?

Randar68
02-26-2004, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I guess we're done now? I hope so anyway, I am sick of having to repeat myself in order to clarify your bull****ting. Oh and about the Dodger talk, we all figured that out by now, so thanks anyway for your exclusive. :D:

I think you are the last person to finally get tired of your repetitiousness. I've been tired of it for about 2 weeks now.

Randar68
02-26-2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I guess we're done now? I hope so anyway, I am sick of having to repeat myself in order to clarify your bull****ting. Oh and about the Dodger talk, we all figured that out by now, so thanks anyway for your exclusive. :D:

23.5 posts per day and I'm still waiting for the first intelligent thought.

steff
02-26-2004, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I guess we're done now? I hope so anyway, I am sick of having to repeat myself in order to clarify your bull****ting. Oh and about the Dodger talk, we all figured that out by now, so thanks anyway for your exclusive. :D:


Don't post lies, inaccurate, or misleading comments about things you know nothing about and you wont have to be corrected or asked to clarify.

hold2dibber
02-26-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by JC456
Just why does he/ she have to back up his opinion. It is an opinion. If he/she believes Frank is a detriment, then that is what he/ she believes.

It's like why one likes the Sox and one likes the Cubs. Both just do. And there are probably many reasons why they hate the other team as well.



I'm not saying he can't defend himself, it just seems to me he/she made a statement of how he/she felt about Frank being on the team and automatically there is something wrong with that thinking.

I don't see why I must comment on your position. My only point was everyone has a right to opinion, and there seems to be some on this board who feel threatened by an opinion on a message board. Like someone on this board can actually make Frank just disappear, or influence management. I don't think that is at all possible.

Do you?

This is laughable. Apparently you do not see the virtue or value of debate. The very point of a message board (or at least one of its primary purposes) is to post ideas and opinions and to expose them to scrutiny. To debate what the Sox are doing and what they should do. You think no one here should ever criticize, analyze or otherwise debate the merits of anyone else's ideas? We should all just post our opinions, without any discussion of any one else's thoughts or ideas? How boring and unstimulating that would be.

If you think people here criticize opinions because they feel "threatened" by them, you've spent too much time reading self help books and watching Oprah. Drop the pseudo-psychoanalysis, because that's not what's going on here. I wasn't "threatened" by Gumshoe's opinion. I thought it was illogical and unsupportable, so I pointed that out. I'm glad to hear other opinions on this board - I often learn new things and my mind sometimes changes based on the opinions of, and debates with, others. Maybe Gumshoe (and you) can too.

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I think you are the last person to finally get tired of your repetitiousness. I've been tired of it for about 2 weeks now. :)

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
23.5 posts per day and I'm still waiting for the first intelligent thought. I appreciate all the support I can get, thanks Randar. :smile:

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by steff
Don't post lies, inaccurate, or misleading comments about things you know nothing about and you wont have to be corrected or asked to clarify. I post opinions, you don't have to like them. In fact you don't have to respond to them. It's completely up to you. :smile:

maurice
02-26-2004, 12:08 PM
The strength of this board is that opinions are debated and that folks are expected to back them up with facts. The most respected posters (a group that certainly includes dibber and steff) are respectful but intellectually demanding. That's a very good thing, since posting a baseless statement and defending it as your "opinion" adds nothing to a thread.

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The strength of this board is that opinions are debated and that folks are expected to back them up with facts. The most respected posters (a group that certainly includes dibber and steff) are respectful but intellectually demanding. That's a very good thing, since posting a baseless statement and defending it as your "opinion" adds nothing to a thread. Lol, is that your opinion? This whole thing is about me saying that Frank hasn't always been the best club house guy, and this has been supported by many peoples' accounts in this forum. I said I believe Frank needs to lead this club (which he also said in a Trib article that I've posted). I also said I believe he would, and that has been proven correctly thus far from his early statements this ST. When I was told I was wrong, and stupid. I said fine, provide something that proves me wrong. I never received any information from anyone. That's where we stand today. You don't have to agree with my opinions, but they have been supported, whether you care to look them up or not. :smile:

steff
02-26-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol, is that your opinion? This whole thing is about me saying that Frank hasn't always been the best club house guy, and this has been supported by many peoples' accounts in this forum. I said I believe Frank needs to lead this club (which he also said in a Trib article that I've posted). I also said I believe he would, and that has been proven correctly thus far from his early statements this ST. When I was told I was wrong, and stupid. I said fine, provide something that proves me wrong. I never received any information from anyone. That's where we stand today. You don't have to agree with my opinions, but they have been supported, whether you care to look them up or not. :smile:


Can I get a hand count of the people that have been IN THE CLUBHOUSE on this forum and who have supported SEAL in his statements that Frank is, in fact, a "bad clubhouse guy"...

-- crickets chirping --


Now SEAL.. I posted what you requested, which proved you to have strrrrreettccchhheeedd the truth. You asked for proof, I posted my FIRST HAND proof.. you chose to ignore it, and fine. Ignore it. Then stop asking me to prove **** to you that you aren't going to believe anyway. YOU created this mess. I asked you how you knew these things... YOU were the one unable to provide proof. You have contridicted yourself so many times in 3 different threads regarding Frank it's not even funny. If it's your opinion, then post that it's your opinion and not "Frank is a bad clubhouse guy...", "Frank doesn't step up..." (both quotes I provided for you earlier in this thread). You're whining and crying (on the "other board") that I'm trying to get people not to like you.. and that is simply ridiculous. I don't take kindly to people talking **** about people I know. And that goes all the way down the line from Frank... to IWC, PHG, Wilkes, Brian, the Aloha's, dib, Randar, Daver, Voodoo, RPS, killa, hzenterprize, rob, joepoe... etc, etc, etc.. (sorry to anyone I didn't specifically address :D: ). I will defend my "friends" at any cost. That's just the kind of person I am.

Don't like it.. oh well. Don't ask me to provide you with something then discount it.

Two way street here. It's your decision if you want to travel on it.

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by steff
Can I get a hand count of the people that have been IN THE CLUBHOUSE on this forum and who have supported SEAL in his statements that Frank is, in fact, a "bad clubhouse guy"...

I didn't say he was a bad club house guy. I say he hasn't always been the best. I know his teammates like him. Geez are you hanging out with Mariotti- talk about distorting.

steff
02-26-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I didn't say he was a bad club house guy. I say he hasn't always been the best. I know his teammates like him. Geez are you hanging out with Mariotti- talk about distorting.


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29350&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

SEALgep []
WSI Personality

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 713/970
Posts Per Day: 23.3

Online!

I'm not so sure he wouldn't have this attitude regardless. Besides, this isn't the first incident witrh Frank, not that all are his fault, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that sometimes he is just a bad club house guy. I like him and would hope he wants to stay, but I'm not prepared to say this is Guillen's doing. Frank probably came to this decision based on the hiring, not necessarily the comment. We'll have to see, I'm not 100% confident that he is going to get dealt.




Your lies continue to bury you...

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by steff
Can I get a hand count of the people that have been IN THE CLUBHOUSE on this forum and who have supported SEAL in his statements that Frank is, in fact, a "bad clubhouse guy"...

-- crickets chirping --


Now SEAL.. I posted what you requested, which proved you to have strrrrreettccchhheeedd the truth. You asked for proof, I posted my FIRST HAND proof.. you chose to ignore it, and fine. Ignore it. Then stop asking me to prove **** to you that you aren't going to believe anyway. YOU created this mess. I asked you how you knew these things... YOU were the one unable to provide proof. You have contridicted yourself so many times in 3 different threads regarding Frank it's not even funny. If it's your opinion, then post that it's your opinion and not "Frank is a bad clubhouse guy...", "Frank doesn't step up..." (both quotes I provided for you earlier in this thread). You're whining and crying (on the "other board") that I'm trying to get people not to like you.. and that is simply ridiculous. I don't take kindly to people talking **** about people I know. And that goes all the way down the line from Frank... to IWC, PHG, Wilkes, Brian, the Aloha's, dib, Randar, Daver, Voodoo, RPS, killa, hzenterprize, rob, joepoe... etc, etc, etc.. (sorry to anyone I didn't specifically address :D: ). I will defend my "friends" at any cost. That's just the kind of person I am.

Don't like it.. oh well. Don't ask me to provide you with something then discount it.

Two way street here. It's your decision if you want to travel on it. Steff, your "freinds" are big boys. When discussing the Sox, it's about the team. What your relationship with Frank is your business, but what I've stated isn't talking **** as you say. If you take it that way, fine. I am always pro Sox, and Frank is one of my favorite players. I expect a lot out of him, as far as leading this team. From what I read of him, he seems to be down with it. If you have private conversations with him, and it's all bull**** what he is saying at ST, fine. I go with what I know. I would prefer to just drop this once and for all, but that's your choice.

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by steff
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29350&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

SEALgep []
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I'm not so sure he wouldn't have this attitude regardless. Besides, this isn't the first incident witrh Frank, not that all are his fault, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that sometimes he is just a bad club house guy. I like him and would hope he wants to stay, but I'm not prepared to say this is Guillen's doing. Frank probably came to this decision based on the hiring, not necessarily the comment. We'll have to see, I'm not 100% confident that he is going to get dealt.




Your lies continue to bury you... Key word is sometimes, and this was in response to a seperate topic. At the time, we were hearing Frank wanted out because of Guillen. You even said Guillen should have kept his mouth shut, yet Frank sang a different tune. I have stated many positive things about Frank, but you choose to harp on this one segment, when all I was saying is Frank needs to step up. I have since reiterated that on several occassions. I was prepared to deal Frank if he didn't want to be here. He has stated that is isn't the case. He has acted like a good teammate and leader thus far, and that's what I am focusing on, and commending him on doing. I predicted that he would, but I doubt you would want to go around searching that, would you, lol. I hope Frank keeps it up.

Iwritecode
02-26-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Key word is sometimes, and this was in response to a seperate topic. At the time, we were hearing Frank wanted out because of Guillen. You even said Guillen should have kept his mouth shut, yet Frank sang a different tune. I have stated many positive things about Frank, but you choose to harp on this one segment, when all I was saying is Frank needs to step up. I have since reiterated that on several occassions. I was prepared to deal Frank if he didn't want to be here. He has stated that is isn't the case. He has acted like a good teammate and leader thus far, and that's what I am focusing on, and commending him on doing. I predicted that he would, but I doubt you would want to go around searching that, would you, lol. I hope Frank keeps it up.

I'm going to type this really slow so you can keep up.

They way you say things comes off as if you were actually there and have seen what is going on first-hand. There's no way you can know what's going on other than the few things that are reported through the media. Obviously that doesn't give you the whole picture. So don't state things as facts when you don't know them to be true. That seems to be the heart of the problem here.

If you believe Thomas to be a "bad clubhouse guy" at least give reasons why.

steff
02-26-2004, 01:49 PM
And don't start out your comments with "The fact is....."

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I'm going to type this really slow so you can keep up.

They way you say things comes off as if you were actually there and have seen what is going on first-hand. There's no way you can know what's going on other than the few things that are reported through the media. Obviously that doesn't give you the whole picture. So don't state things as facts when you don't know them to be true. That seems to be the heart of the problem here.

If you believe Thomas to be a "bad clubhouse guy" at least give reasons why. Type really slowly so I can keep up. I one time wrote something about someone's intelligence and was reprimanded for it, and have since never done so. Go ahead though if you like.

The way things come off is your interpretation. I always claimed that I wrote opinions and never said they were facts. I have provided facts that support my opinions.

I didn't say Thomas was a bad club house guy. I said he wasn't always the best, and I already supported that.

SEALgep
02-26-2004, 02:04 PM
Besides this whole thing is out of context. I have said I like Frank Thomas, he is one of my favorite players. I said in the past he hasn't always been a club house favorite. Besides that though, I said him and Ozzie would work things out, and they have, or rather there wasn't anything to work out. I said I would like Frank to step up as a leader, as he himself was quoted in the Trib. For the last time, I like Frank Thomas. I predicted this would work out fine. Everyone looks to have a clean slate, and it already seems like this team is coming together more. That's all I want, because that's going to help us win. Everything else, including our petty differences, don't mean a thing. It all comes down to us being fans that want the same thing.

Iwritecode
02-26-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Type really slowly so I can keep up. I one time wrote something about someone's intelligence and was reprimanded for it, and have since never done so. Go ahead though if you like.


It was a joke. It doesn't matter how fast/slow I type, you'll still be able to read at your own pace...

Originally posted by SEALgep
The way things come off is your interpretation. I always claimed that I wrote opinions and never said they were facts. I have provided facts that support my opinions.

I didn't say Thomas was a bad club house guy. I said he wasn't always the best, and I already supported that.

What facts have you provided that support that Frank "wasn't always the best clubhouse guy" (which seems to me a longer way of saying "bad")?

The only instances I know of are when other players publicly criticize him and he defends himself. I've never heard of him starting anything.