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SEALgep
02-23-2004, 10:34 AM
In the Sun Times, they briefly pointed out that Guillen seems to be leaning with Valentin in the two hole. They said it could be a problem with lefties and would switch that around when facing one. However, the switch guy would be C. Lee. I have no problem with C. Lee in the two hole, but not specifically against lefties, he doesn't hit them well. He's a righty, but that's who he hits as well. In fact he would have hit well above .300 if he hadn't faced a lefty last year. So that logic is out. Valentin would probably do a fair job, particulary because he has a little bit of power, is our best bunter, and is regarded (even though some disagree, I don't) that he is a good base runner- not necessarily very speedy (not slow), but that isn't the definition of good baserunning. We'll see, but if that is who the guy is, let's see how it works. The switch guy would probably work out, but I would use Rowand (for the specifically against lefties scenerio.)

RichFitztightly
02-23-2004, 11:56 AM
I don't know, I've always thought Valentine was a pretty good baserunner. He'd go from first to third better than anybody on the team and he was fantastic at taking an extra base on balls in the dirt.

I agree though, if you're going to switch somebody against lefties, I'd be inclined to switch Rowand as opposed to Lee. However, with the success Lee had in the number 2 spot last year, I find it very difficult to take him out of there. Either way, any plan is better than no plan at all, so I'll give Guillen the benefit of any doubt before I pass judgement.

sas1974
02-23-2004, 12:08 PM
I think any of the options listed above sound fine, just as long there will finally be some consistency in filling out the line up card.

SEALgep
02-23-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
I don't know, I've always thought Valentine was a pretty good baserunner. He'd go from first to third better than anybody on the team and he was fantastic at taking an extra base on balls in the dirt.

I agree though, if you're going to switch somebody against lefties, I'd be inclined to switch Rowand as opposed to Lee. However, with the success Lee had in the number 2 spot last year, I find it very difficult to take him out of there. Either way, any plan is better than no plan at all, so I'll give Guillen the benefit of any doubt before I pass judgement. I agree, if Guillen feels comfortable with it that way, I'm willing to do it- it's not like it couldn't change if it wasn't working as hoped. Besides, I do see the value with it. I agree Lee could work well too, and I'm sure we'll see it a little bit as well. But if Lee is the two hole guy, which I'm not against, then it needs to be against righty and lefties, not one or the other.

Frater Perdurabo
02-23-2004, 12:10 PM
I hope Reed exceeds expectations and surprises us as the answer for the #2 hole.

WSox8404
02-23-2004, 01:07 PM
I just don't see Valentine as a two hitter. His average is nowhere near what a two hitter should be. He doesn't walk that much either.

maurice
02-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Valentin's most (only?) redeeming feature is that he provides LH power in the middle of the lineup. His least redeeming feature is his utter inability to reach base at an adequate rate, which is why Valentin in the two hole is a very bad thing.

The Sox have no protypical #1 or #2 hitter, until and unless Harris or Reed become quality major league contributors. CLee was productive in that slot last season and should remain. Christ, even Rowand would be better than Valentin.

poorme
02-23-2004, 01:14 PM
ValenTIN is strictly a platoon player. He's fine at #2. (.345 OBP against righties)

SoxxoS
02-23-2004, 01:30 PM
Does anyone know who said something along these lines:

"Show me a great hitter, I'll show you the guy who hits behind him"

???

jeremyb1
02-23-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
I hope Reed exceeds expectations and surprises us as the answer for the #2 hole.

I hope Reed makes the team and hits leadoff. I have no problem with Jose hitting second as long as its against righties. We don't have many OBP guys outside of Maggs and Frank and neither of them is about to hit at the top of the order so it works.

pudge
02-23-2004, 02:18 PM
Correct if I'm wrong, but we won the division with Valentin in the #2 spot...?

I don't care what it is, as long as it doesn't change every friggin' day.

RichFitztightly
02-23-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
But if Lee is the two hole guy, which I'm not against, then it needs to be against righty and lefties, not one or the other.

I agree 100%. If... IF they decide to platoon the number 2 spot (which would be a bad idea in my opinion) it should be Valentine/Rowand as opposed to Valentine/Lee.

fuzzy_patters
02-23-2004, 02:43 PM
Who is Valentine? Did Bobby come out of retirement?

RichFitztightly
02-23-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Who is Valentine? Did Bobby come out of retirement?

Sorry... The platoon should be Valentin /Rowand as opposed to Valentin /Lee

Foulke You
02-23-2004, 03:09 PM
While Valentin had his most productive years with us when batting in the #2 spot, I'd almost hate to take Carlos Lee out of that 2 hole. He really started to come alive in that spot. I think he saw more fastballs there batting in front of Frank Thomas. Anyone else worried that this could screw up Caballo having another monster year like '03?

maurice
02-23-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Correct if I'm wrong, but we won the division with Valentin in the #2 spot

Valentin's OBP
1999: .347
2000: .343
2001: .336
2002: .311
2003: .313

That .340+ OBP (facing both lefties and righties) ain't coming back. The only reason CLee even got a chance in the two hole was because Valentin did so poorly there in 2003 (he was much better batting seventh). After the switch, the offense caught fire, and CLee went on to lead the team in Runs and RBI. (Valentin only lead the team in errors and, very nearly, strikeouts.)

It's true that Valentin never should start against lefties, and I'm not adverse to platoons . . . but platooning the two hole is the kind of stuff that earned Manuel the nickname "Tinkerbell."


:hawk
"Isn't that right, Tinkeroo?"


:jerry
"I hereby dub thee Tinkeroo Number Two."


:ozzie
"Getting on base eez overrated anyway. My career OBP wuz .287, and I always thought I should lead off. What do you thinh, Frank?"


:hurt
"Just stick me in the three hole and ****, little man.

jeremyb1
02-23-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Valentin's OBP
1999: .347
2000: .343
2001: .336
2002: .311
2003: .313

If you look at his OBP against righties which is more relevant you get:

2001: .344
2002: .322
2003: .345

Those aren't bad figures and don't suggest such a large decline in performance. The bottom line here isn't whether Jose should be batting second, in my opinion its that he should never be allowed on the field with a lefty on the mound unless its as a defensive replacement.

Frater Perdurabo
02-23-2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
If you look at his OBP against righties which is more relevant you get:

2001: .344
2002: .322
2003: .345

Those aren't bad figures and don't suggest such a large decline in performance. The bottom line here isn't whether Jose should be batting second, in my opinion its that he should never be allowed on the field with a lefty on the mound unless its as a defensive replacement.

Yes. That's why losing Graffy will hurt more than some would like to admit.

maurice
02-23-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
If you look at his OBP against righties . . . .

The platoon issue and his lefty-righty splits generally were addressed in my previous post, so I won't get into that again except to note that CLee's OBP v. righties in 2003 was .352. Also, while you're looking at Valentin's splits, take a glace at his two-hole / seven-hole splits over the past three years (which also were referenced in my previous post).

The bottom line here isn't whether Jose should be batting second . . . .

Sure it is. Look at the title of the thread. :D:

The bottom line is, IMHO, nobody (including Guillen) has provided a good reason to remove CLee from the two hole, given the results last year and the absence of a clearly superior alternative. I'm willing to reconsider after Reed establishes himself, though I suspect that Reed-Lee-Thomas is a stronger order than Harris-Reed-Thomas.

A. Cavatica
02-23-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by maurice
nobody (including Guillen) has provided a good reason to remove CLee from the two hole, given the results last year and the absence of a clearly superior alternative.

His on-base percentage last year was right around the league average. That's not good enough for a #2 hitter, but you're right, there isn't anyone better at the moment. Lee should be the #2 until a viable alternative emerges (along with a #1). At that point I'd move him back to #5 to take advantage of his power.

batmanZoSo
02-23-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
His on-base percentage last year was right around the league average. That's not good enough for a #2 hitter, but you're right, there isn't anyone better at the moment. Lee should be the #2 until a viable alternative emerges (along with a #1). At that point I'd move him back to #5 to take advantage of his power.


As a lefty, all his hitting stats were generous for his position. The key is to get another guy to hit left handed starters and hit .260 doing it. The way I look at it is you pay Jose (4 million?) plus a platoon guy half a mill and you get, overall, one pretty solid shortstop for 4.5 million. Not a bad deal.

sas1974
02-23-2004, 11:06 PM
#2 better be able to jump all over a fastball. Frank is still a menacing presence at #3 and nobody wants to put someone on in front of him. My preference would be C Lee, but then there's his fabulous base running and bunting ability.

lowesox
02-23-2004, 11:55 PM
MY preference is easily Rowand in the number 2 spot. Why? Because I think Carlos Lee had better start getting more AB's in the middle of the order - because he'll probably be hitting third or fourth next year. That and because I think Valentin is awful. If nothing else the number 2 guy should be a role player. Man, I wish we had brought Singleton back - at least then we'd have solid D, a guy who can run and a guy who could steal bases.

Of course, it won't really matter who bats 2nd because there won't be a leadoff hitter to move over.