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jeremyb1
02-22-2004, 07:12 PM
In case anyone missed it, the Joe Cowley in the Southtown had an excellent article on Rauch (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/221sd1.htm) today. It addresses his health and the notion of an attitude problem as was discussed previously around these parts.

poorme
02-22-2004, 08:18 PM
He ought to be the #5 starter.

SEALgep
02-22-2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by poorme
He ought to be the #5 starter. If he wins it. I'm prepared to go with the best guy. I won't mind if he does, but I think Grilli has to be given high consideration as well. There are some other interesting wild card guys too that could be very effective in that role as well. We just have to see, but it's too early to give the job away. It has to be earned.

jeremyb1
02-22-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If he wins it. I'm prepared to go with the best guy. I won't mind if he does, but I think Grilli has to be given high consideration as well. There are some other interesting wild card guys too that could be very effective in that role as well. We just have to see, but it's too early to give the job away. It has to be earned.

We should see what Grilli does but his K rate was exceedingly low last year.

SEALgep
02-22-2004, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
We should see what Grilli does but his K rate was exceedingly low last year. Granted, but that doesn't necessarily negate his pitching abilities. Maybe he is an out pitcher. He has a respectable win/loss record in the minors, and a low ERA. Some pitchers want the batter to put it in play and let the batters get themselves out. In fact a lot of good pitchers use that as their primary strategy, and are very effective in doing so.

Lip Man 1
02-22-2004, 09:58 PM
The thing that grabbed me about the story was the comment that other Sox players thought he was soft and wasn't hurt as badly as he was saying.

Hmmmmmm......I think they were right on one of the two points.

Lip

MarkEdward
02-22-2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Granted, but that doesn't necessarily negate his pitching abilities. Maybe he is an out pitcher. He has a respectable win/loss record in the minors, and a low ERA. Some pitchers want the batter to put it in play and let the batters get themselves out. In fact a lot of good pitchers use that as their primary strategy, and are very effective in doing so.

Historically, there have been very few, if any, modern-day pitchers that have been able to succeed with an extremely low K rate (on the low side of 5.5 per nine innings). Jimmy Key seems to be the one exception, and his rate was above 5.5.

The only impressive thing about Grilli's 2003 line is that he only gave up three home runs pitching in the hitter's heaven known as Albuquerque. I also think it's unwise to hope to get 150-200 innings out of Grilli- he's only pitched 300 innings since 1999.

EDIT: for clarity

jeremyb1
02-22-2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The thing that grabbed me about the story was the comment that other Sox players thought he was soft and wasn't hurt as badly as he was saying.

Hmmmmmm......I think they were right on one of the two points.

Lip

Hahaha. Well he is under the age of 30 Lip so there must be something terribly wrong with him.

WinningUgly!
02-22-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hahaha. Well he is under the age of 30 Lip so there must be something terribly wrong with him. *****!!! :)

SEALgep
02-22-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Historically, there have been very few, if any, modern-day pitchers that have been able to succeed with an extremely low K rate (on the low side of 5.5 per nine innings). Jimmy Key seems to be the one exception, and his rate was above 5.5.

The only impressive thing about Grilli's 2003 line is that he only gave up three home runs pitching in the hitter's heaven known as Albuquerque. I also think it's unwise to hope to get 150-200 innings out of Grilli- he's only pitched 300 innings since 1999.

EDIT: for clarity Well not giving up many homeruns and having a low ERA are certainly aspects of a good pitcher, especially if it was a hitters park. However, his low inning total was due to his health. He is considered healthy now. Maybe the stamina won't be there, but I'll let the Sox make that call while watching him over ST.

Randar68
02-22-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by poorme
He ought to be the #5 starter.


I really hope so. I hope all this other crap can be put in the past. If he out-performs someone who get's that job, it will be the work of KW:

:KW

"I'm the only one allowed to throw a tantrum and yell at people around here. Anyone who tells me I screwed up is banished from the LAND!"

idseer
02-23-2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Historically, there have been very few, if any, modern-day pitchers that have been able to succeed with an extremely low K rate (on the low side of 5.5 per nine innings). Jimmy Key seems to be the one exception, and his rate was above 5.5.



one of the greatest pitchers of all time, warren spahn, had a k rate of 4.43.

jeremyb1
02-23-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
one of the greatest pitchers of all time, warren spahn, had a k rate of 4.43.

That's true, K/BB rate is really important too though. If you look at Spahn's career numbers he had exceptionally few walks and his K/BB rate was near 2 whereas Grilli walked nearly as many guys as he struck out last season which is scary.

batmanZoSo
02-23-2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
In case anyone missed it, the Joe Cowley in the Southtown had an excellent article on Rauch (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/221sd1.htm) today. It addresses his health and the notion of an attitude problem as was discussed previously around these parts.

Good article.
Don't anyone count him out yet. Aside from the injury, people should remember he's 6'11" and thus has very long arms and any scout will tell you that the longer your arms are, the harder it is to maintain good control. Changes in release points for him have a much greater effect on where the pitch ends up than for a guy that's 6'2". Randy Johnson, if I remember, didn't make much of a splash until he was 27, 28. Power pitchers in general take long to develop, let alone ones that tall.

RichFitztightly
02-23-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Good article.
Don't anyone count him out yet. Aside from the injury, people should remember he's 6'11" and thus has very long arms and any scout will tell you that the longer your arms are, the harder it is to maintain good control. Changes in release points for him have a much greater effect on where the pitch ends up than for a guy that's 6'2". Randy Johnson, if I remember, didn't make much of a splash until he was 27, 28. Power pitchers in general take long to develop, let alone ones that tall.

That's a good point. Anybody know his velocity? Is he around the high 90's like The Unit in his prime? And does he have that wicked slider he throws at 3/4 angle?

Daver
02-23-2004, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Good article.
Don't anyone count him out yet. Aside from the injury, people should remember he's 6'11" and thus has very long arms and any scout will tell you that the longer your arms are, the harder it is to maintain good control. Changes in release points for him have a much greater effect on where the pitch ends up than for a guy that's 6'2". Randy Johnson, if I remember, didn't make much of a splash until he was 27, 28. Power pitchers in general take long to develop, let alone ones that tall.

When did Rauch become a power pitcher?

SoxxoS
02-23-2004, 08:27 PM
Yeah, batman, Rauch is a control pitcher.

doublem23
02-23-2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hahaha. Well he is under the age of 30 Lip so there must be something terribly wrong with him.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

That's great.

Randar68
02-24-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
That's a good point. Anybody know his velocity? Is he around the high 90's like The Unit in his prime? And does he have that wicked slider he throws at 3/4 angle?

He throws 89-91 and tops out around 92 these days. He does get an extra 6-10 inches to the plate on most other pitchers though, so it seems a bit faster than that.

jeremyb1
02-24-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
He throws 89-91 and tops out around 92 these days. He does get an extra 6-10 inches to the plate on most other pitchers though, so it seems a bit faster than that.

Reports were that he threw 92-93 topping out around 94 or 95 in '01. Anyone know about how accurate those were?

MRKARNO
02-24-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Reports were that he threw 92-93 topping out around 94 or 95 in '01. Anyone know about how accurate those were?

Is it really all that important when this guy has real good location?

mantis1212
02-24-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Historically, there have been very few, if any, modern-day pitchers that have been able to succeed with an extremely low K rate (on the low side of 5.5 per nine innings). Jimmy Key seems to be the one exception, and his rate was above 5.5.

The only impressive thing about Grilli's 2003 line is that he only gave up three home runs pitching in the hitter's heaven known as Albuquerque. I also think it's unwise to hope to get 150-200 innings out of Grilli- he's only pitched 300 innings since 1999.

EDIT: for clarity

So Grilli was an Albuquerque Isotope??

Randar68
02-24-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Reports were that he threw 92-93 topping out around 94 or 95 in '01. Anyone know about how accurate those were?

He was able to reach back and throw in the 94 mph range, but I never once have seen him top 95 in a game. Most of the time, even then, he was in the 91-93 range. So now, even if he's lost 1 or 2 mph, control is still the name of his game.

jeremyb1
02-24-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
He was able to reach back and throw in the 94 mph range, but I never once have seen him top 95 in a game. Most of the time, even then, he was in the 91-93 range. So now, even if he's lost 1 or 2 mph, control is still the name of his game.

Yeah. I've always heard him described as a guy with good control who knows how to pitch first and foremost. Mostly, I was just interested about how much velocity he's lost since his surgery.

fsphog
02-27-2004, 05:07 PM
hmm, in 2001 rauch had season ending surgery to repair a rotator cuff tear, a labral tear (SLAP lesion), a completely torn bicep tendon, had to get a bone shaved down, and the entire shoulder (capsule) shrunk using a technique called thermal shrinkage. and he was rushed back to make the big league squad after just 9 months, when his rehab required probably close to 12-16 i would guess. then he missed a month in the middle of last year, for supposedly a reinjured shoulder (rumor is he tore something again) and he ended up pitching lights out in july and august, only to be sent home after the season, with no call-up since the big team switched to a 4 man rotation. all this out of a guy thats 'soft'. its funny what people say when they dont know the whole story.

SoxxoS
02-27-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by fsphog
hmm, in 2001 rauch had season ending surgery to repair a rotator cuff tear, a labral tear (SLAP lesion), a completely torn bicep tendon, had to get a bone shaved down, and the entire shoulder (capsule) shrunk using a technique called thermal shrinkage. and he was rushed back to make the big league squad after just 9 months, when his rehab required probably close to 12-16 i would guess. then he missed a month in the middle of last year, for supposedly a reinjured shoulder (rumor is he tore something again) and he ended up pitching lights out in july and august, only to be sent home after the season, with no call-up since the big team switched to a 4 man rotation. all this out of a guy thats 'soft'. its funny what people say when they dont know the whole story.

I had no idea he had a torn biceps and had to get a bone shaved down...you got a link to that?

fsphog
02-27-2004, 05:40 PM
no link - personal knowledge.

vettemaster
02-27-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by fsphog
hmm, in 2001 rauch had season ending surgery to repair a rotator cuff tear, a labral tear (SLAP lesion), a completely torn bicep tendon, had to get a bone shaved down, and the entire shoulder (capsule) shrunk using a technique called thermal shrinkage. and he was rushed back to make the big league squad after just 9 months, when his rehab required probably close to 12-16 i would guess. then he missed a month in the middle of last year, for supposedly a reinjured shoulder (rumor is he tore something again) and he ended up pitching lights out in july and august, only to be sent home after the season, with no call-up since the big team switched to a 4 man rotation. all this out of a guy thats 'soft'. its funny what people say when they dont know the whole story.
fsphog, you know exactly what Rauch had done when he went under the knife in Birmingham, and yet it seems that some people are standing in line to say that Jon Rauch is SOFT, what a joke!! I am a real big fan of Rauch and am glad to see someone else knows just what this young man has been through this past year or so. I know for a fact this monster man is at 100% and will suprise a lot of fans this spring. I wonder what the outcome might have been if the SOX would have called up Rauch to face the TWINS twice in Sept....Oh well...thanks for telling it like it is and lets hope Rauch has a fantastic spring!!

Iguana775
02-28-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by vettemaster
fsphog, you know exactly what Rauch had done when he went under the knife in Birmingham, and yet it seems that some people are standing in line to say that Jon Rauch is SOFT, what a joke!! I am a real big fan of Rauch and am glad to see someone else knows just what this young man has been through this past year or so. I know for a fact this monster man is at 100% and will suprise a lot of fans this spring. I wonder what the outcome might have been if the SOX would have called up Rauch to face the TWINS twice in Sept....Oh well...thanks for telling it like it is and lets hope Rauch has a fantastic spring!!

i have also been a big fan of him. i really hope he is able to come back and be the pitcher i thought he would be.

ChiSox14305635
02-28-2004, 01:30 AM
With a new manager in place, I see alot of different and positive things coming out of Tucson. Hopefully, Rauch will be one of them.