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KempersRS
09-07-2001, 09:55 PM
Next on the list of those to be passed by Royce in BA is.......Manos. Royce is 3 points behind Jose in BA (.267 to .264).

Bucktown
09-07-2001, 10:13 PM
I think it is time to get off this guy's ass. No one expected to bat over .250. The fact that he was so pathetic at the start makes what he has done even more impressive.

Bmr31
09-07-2001, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I think it is time to get off this guy's ass. No one expected to bat over .250. The fact that he was so pathetic at the start makes what he has done even more impressive.

some people are just too stubborn to admit they are wrong......

czalgosz
09-07-2001, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


some people are just too stubborn to admit they are wrong......

I think I'm going to print this quote and frame it...

Spiff
09-07-2001, 11:04 PM
:moron

"I have never been wrong about anything. Even when I said Sammy would cure world hunger. Just you wait."

doublem23
09-07-2001, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I think it is time to get off this guy's ass. No one expected to bat over .250. The fact that he was so pathetic at the start makes what he has done even more impressive.

Yay! A healthy Royce Clayton passed up an injury-plagued Jose Valentin who has been forced to play defensive ping pong all season in mid-September when we're all but out of the race!

:hitless
clap clap clap

Now leave.

doublem23
09-07-2001, 11:54 PM
What's the all-important offensive stat? OBA?

Here they are:
DURHAM - .333
MANOS - .344
LEE - .321
ORDONEZ - .372
KONERKO - .354
CANSECO - .386
PERRY - .329
PAUL .287/ALOMAR - .288/JOHNSON - .346
CLAYTON - .309
SINGLETON - .331

Wow! Clayton's OBA only tops Josh Paul & Sandy Alomar, Jr. of our regular starters! Yeah, he's really worth it!

FarWestChicago
09-07-2001, 11:59 PM
Next on the list of those to be passed by Royce in BA is.......Manos. Royce is 3 points behind Jose in BA (.267 to .264).

OK, I'll put you down it the column for those who prefer the Choice's bat to Jose's bat.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


OK, I'll put you down it the column for those who prefer the Choice's bat to Jose's bat.

Wait, there are people out there who prefer Royce at short cuz of his BAT??? At least with the defensive arguement, there are stats to back that up.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 12:20 AM
Wait, there are people out there who prefer Royce at short cuz of his BAT??? At least with the defensive arguement, there are stats to back that up.

There are Choice lovers out there who prefer Royce because of his baserunning. The bat was the next logical step. Hell, if I were the Giants I would trade Bonds for Choice!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
There are Choice lovers out there who prefer Royce because of his baserunning. The bat was the next logical step. Hell, if I were the Giants I would trade Bonds for Choice!

The Giants once had Choice and they gave up on him. Amongst their fans this is the equivalent of the Cubs trading Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio.

And of course St. Louis gave up on Royce, and Texas, too. They're all regretting it now.

"One guy even suggested Milwaukee goofed trading me for Navarro, LOL!"
:manos

LongDistanceFan
09-08-2001, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


There are Choice lovers out there who prefer Royce because of his baserunning. The bat was the next logical step. Hell, if I were the Giants I would trade Bonds for Choice! i thought it was b/c he has range, and such a great defensive specialist.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
i thought it was b/c he has range, and such a great defensive specialist.

which, of course, neither are true....

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 12:33 AM
i thought it was b/c he has range, and such a great defensive specialist.

You have been napping, LDF. He is now a monster on the basepaths and perhaps the best hitter since Ted Williams.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 12:40 AM
:hitless
Ted Williams? Please. It takes a real hitter to start the year under .100, trick all the pitchers into thinking you suck, and then climbing to your normal .259 career batting average by mid-September when your team is all but out of the race.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
:hitless
Ted Williams? Please. It takes a real hitter to start the year under .100, trick all the pitchers into thinking you suck, and then climbing to your normal .259 career batting average by mid-September when your team is all but out of the race.

You forgot the part about topping out at .230 but suddenly finding new life after the general manager says your@ss is all but gone.

"Me being motivated solely by self-interest? I'm shocked!"
:hitless

The shoe fits, doesn't it Royce? Wasn't you who told everyone, "Life isn't fair" after you (temporarily) lost your starting job?

LongDistanceFan
09-08-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


You forgot the part about topping out at .230 but suddenly finding new life after the general manager says your@ss is all but gone.

"Me being motivated solely by self-interest? I'm shocked!"
:hitless

The shoe fits, doesn't it Royce? Wasn't you who told everyone, "Life isn't fair" after you (temporarily) lost your starting job? and what a way to give your body for a def play, oops, i forgot, he jump out of the way...... disregard.

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 12:57 AM
We need a new catagory... Most sarcastic thread of the week... I nominate this one...

:hitless
"You mean they weren't being serious about that Bonds trade? I love frisco..."

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
You forgot the part about topping out at .230 but suddenly finding new life after the general manager says your @ss is all but gone.


Ummm truthfully, what real difference does that make? As I recall, Royce is signed for next year. So whether he plays for the Sox, somewhere else, or is just plain released, that money is already as good as in his pocket. You guys work hard to come up w/ reasons to hate the guy. Makes no sense...

LongDistanceFan
09-08-2001, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Ummm truthfully, what real difference does that make? As I recall, Royce is signed for next year. So whether he plays for the Sox, somewhere else, or is just plain released, that money is already as good as in his pocket. You guys work hard to come up w/ reasons to hate the guy. Makes no sense... 1 more yr w/him at ss............. aggghh

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 01:00 AM
You guys work hard to come up w/ reasons to hate the guy. Makes no sense...


ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!


No, we don't hate Royce... We just feel he is the second best all around option at SS for the Sox!!! All we want is to win. If Choice were a better option all of us would be buttering him up and offering him our sisters... BUT... JOSE IS A BETTER PLAYER!!! SO IS RAY!!! Where do you want to play Royce based on that information?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Ummm truthfully, what real difference does that make? As I recall, Royce is signed for next year. So whether he plays for the Sox, somewhere else, or is just plain released, that money is already as good as in his pocket. You guys work hard to come up w/ reasons to hate the guy. Makes no sense...


Actually, I don't work hard at all. This guy is priceless. 700 page views? Wow!

"I'm good for business at that ramshackle greasy joint where PHG works the fryer."
:hitless

"Dairy Queen does well, too."
:jerry

LongDistanceFan
09-08-2001, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile



ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!


No, we don't hate Royce... We just feel he is the second best all around option at SS for the Sox!!! All we want is to win. If Choice were a better option all of us would be buttering him up and offering him our sisters... BUT... JOSE IS A BETTER PLAYER!!! SO IS RAY!!! Where do you want to play Royce based on that information? my sister....... pls, you should see what she looks like. like me> :)

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile



ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!


No, we don't hate Royce...

Wow, what color is the sky in your world? I've seen sickness, injury, and death wished upon Clayton on this board. I guess if that's not hate, then I'm scared to see hate.

I'm trying to stay out of the who's better nonsense since there's no point to it. Plain and simply put, Clayton has played decent for 4 months following 2 months of crap. I don't know how much better off this team would have been w/ Valentin at ss. They've had chances that they have blown, and it hasn't been just due to Satan...oops, I mean Clayton.

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


OK, I'll put you down it the column for those who prefer the Choice's bat to Jose's bat.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! What the hell?? When did I say that??

doublem23
09-08-2001, 01:10 AM
See, the fatal flaw in that "4 months of good ball to 2 months of bad" is that WE NEEDED to win games in those first 2 months. Think of were we'd be if instead of starting the year 14-29, we were like 22-21, which as of now would put us 1 1/2 games in first.

Good for Royce he hit when we were essentially out of the play-off picture!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
I'm trying to stay out of the who's better nonsense since there's no point to it. Plain and simply put, Clayton has played decent for 4 months following 2 months of crap. I don't know how much better off this team would have been w/ Valentin at ss. They've had chances that they have blown, and it hasn't been just due to Satan...oops, I mean Clayton.


LOL, good one K!

"Hey, I'm Satan!"
:reinsy

"Not anymore. At least my name rhymes!"
:hitless

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Wow, what color is the sky in your world? I've seen sickness, injury, and death wished upon Clayton on this board. I guess if that's not hate, then I'm scared to see hate.

I'm trying to stay out of the who's better nonsense since there's no point to it. Plain and simply put, Clayton has played decent for 4 months following 2 months of crap. I don't know how much better off this team would have been w/ Valentin at ss. They've had chances that they have blown, and it hasn't been just due to Satan...oops, I mean Clayton.

Okay so maybe some of us hate the Choice, but most of us just want to win... guess I'll speak for me only instead...

I don't hate Royce, but don't want him on the team next year because it gives Jerry too many options. Give him just enough players to fill the starting slots and an average bench and we will be fine... Other than that he just gets confused...

IMO, the best SS/2B package we have is Manos and RayRay... That leaves no place for Royce...

I am hoping KW packages Royce with some prospects to get a veteran pitcher or catcher. Royce's recent surge makes him marketable again and that is all for the best...

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
See, the fatal flaw in that "4 months of good ball to 2 months of bad" is that WE NEEDED to win games in those first 2 months. Think of were we'd be if instead of starting the year 14-29, we were like 22-21, which as of now would put us 1 1/2 games in first.

Good for Royce he hit when we were essentially out of the play-off picture!

Well, if one player took the team down all by himself, then guess what? The team sucked to begin with. 9 guys play.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile

Okay so maybe some of us hate the Choice, but most of us just want to win... guess I'll speak for me only instead...



I'm not sure what specific posts you're referring to, but please note I've never wished injury on any ballplayer, least of all a member of the White Sox.

I did conduct a fundraiser to payoff Herm Schneider for inventing a medical excuse for placing Royce on the DL. Royce would not be hurt--that was the joke.

The whole bit was of course bogus.

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Well, if one player took the team down all by himself, then guess what? The team sucked to begin with. 9 guys play.

I'll go on record here and say that I totally agree with this statement. Royce is not the reason we sucked early on this year. He is part of the reason, but not most of it by any sense of the word. Still think Jose is a better all around SS...

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I did conduct a fundraiser to payoff Herm Schneider for inventing a medical excuse for placing Royce on the DL. Royce would not be hurt--that was the joke.

The whole bit was of course bogus.

I know that was just jokes. But there have been several posts suggesting that a Royce injury would be welcomed. The death one was way back in the April/May time frame. Of course, I have no names to name.

The whole thing is just silly. I was at the game the night Clayton got his first dinger with the Sox. A guy was yelling at the top of his lungs that Clayton sucks, he was booing, and saying to sit that m-f'er down. Ball goes over the fence and he's spilling his frickin beer cheering. That pisses me off.

Pull for the guy. He's wearin our colors.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Well, if one player took the team down all by himself, then guess what? The team sucked to begin with. 9 guys play.

How many rallies did he kill? When you bat .098, that's basically getting 1 hit every 2-3 GAMES!!!

He's not 100% to blame, but I still contend that if Valentin is at SS for the start of the year, we're in a lot better shape than we are.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Pull for the guy. He's wearin our colors.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

When I'm watching the games, I don't say, "Damn, you Royce! You got a hit! You suck!"

Hell no. I WANT him to hit, cuz I want to win, and Valentin at short, as I see it, gives us a better chance to win, so the faster Clayton leaves, the better.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 01:31 AM
Pull for the guy. He's wearin our colors.

Not only that, he is the best player in the game. Can you believe the Pay-Rods gave him to us for next to nothing? And then they paid a weak imitation of the Choice $252 mil. KW, is a friggin' genius!

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


How many rallies did he kill? When you bat .098, that's basically getting 1 hit every 2-3 GAMES!!!

He's not 100% to blame, but I still contend that if Valentin is at SS for the start of the year, we're in a lot better shape than we are.

Based on what exactly? How would things have turned out differently? Why? And how do you know? You sleeping with :cleo ????????????

doublem23
09-08-2001, 01:46 AM
well, having a guaranteed out in your order doesn't help when fielding a baseball team.

And then, let's not mention bouncing around your team leader to accomdate an inferior player. I'm sure that's basic baseball logic.

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
well, having a guaranteed out in your order doesn't help when fielding a baseball team.

And then, let's not mention bouncing around your team leader to accomdate an inferior player. I'm sure that's basic baseball logic.

Big deal. Valentin at short. That puts Singleton in CF. And plenty of Sox fans wanted him on the bus out of town in April too. Also it put Perry at 3rd. While he's ultra-clutch with the stick, early on this season, he could not make accurate throws to anywhere. Tell me again how Valentin at short would have won more games early on this season...

doublem23
09-08-2001, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Big deal. Valentin at short. That puts Singleton in CF. And plenty of Sox fans wanted him on the bus out of town in April too. Also it put Perry at 3rd. While he's ultra-clutch with the stick, early on this season, he could not make accurate throws to anywhere. Tell me again how Valentin at short would have won more games early on this season...

You stick your nine best guys at their best positions. Geez. That's Baseball 101. I'm not saying we'd be the Mariners for Christ's sake. I'm saying, there's no questions if you stick your nine best guys in their best defensive positions and let them play. Now we can all ponder the question, "what if Jose played short instead of Royce?" In reality, I have no idea what would have happened, but I doubt it would be this bad.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Big deal. Valentin at short. That puts Singleton in CF. And plenty of Sox fans wanted him on the bus out of town in April too. Also it put Perry at 3rd. While he's ultra-clutch with the stick, early on this season, he could not make accurate throws to anywhere. Tell me again how Valentin at short would have won more games early on this season...

You are right. Manos would have been no improvement over the Choice. Same with Pay-Rod. We have the best there is and the best there ever was.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Tell me again how Valentin at short would have won more games early on this season...

These are the numbers you sacrificed at shortstop this year:
AB: 568
BA: .273
HR: 25
RBI: 92
TB: 279
OBP: .343
SLG: .491


It's also worth noting Valentin put up similar numbers in 1996, the only other season he was ever given 500+ at-bats. This is no fluke.

You know how many AB's Valentin is on pace to get this year? 428.

Now tell me, who's fault is that? I'll give you three guesses.

:KW :jerry :hitless

doublem23
09-08-2001, 02:11 AM
Oh, you're a tricky one, PHG! Your like my U.S. history teacher who asked if Christopher C. Columbus landed in the New World in 1492 (when we all know the REALS Christopher Columbus's middle name was actually something like Thomas).

However, I'd add letter D)
:reinsy
Let's see, Royce makes more money, so he's obviously better!

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:14 AM
Now tell me, who's fault is that? I'll give you three guesses.

:hitless

PHG, give it up. I am the best player to ever wear cleats. I am the unanimous MVP.

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

These are the numbers you sacrificed at shortstop this year:
AB: 568
BA: .273
HR: 25
RBI: 92
TB: 279
OBP: .343
SLG: .491


It's also worth noting Valentin put up similar numbers in 1996, the only other season he was ever given 500+ at-bats. This is no fluke.

You know how many AB's Valentin is on pace to get this year? 428.

And these are the numbers he's put up while playing, not necessarily at short:

AB: 368
BA: .267
HR: 25
RBI: 60
TB: 203
OBP: .340
SLG: .526

Those are pretty damn close to the same numbers w/ 21 games left to play. His total bases doesn't relate to playing SS. His RBI don't relate to playing short. Nor does his AB's. So exactly what is your point?

And w/ specific regard to AB's, Valentin currently has 200 less than last season. You suggested that the number of games played corresponds directly to the number of AB's. I can't imagine you thinking he'd get more AB's by playing a certain position. So I assume that you mean that because there were games when Clayton played and Valentin sat that this decreased his AB's.

That would seem an opinion that's shaky at best because in 1998, Valentin played in 151 games compared to the 154 games in 1996 when he had 552 AB's. He played in only 3 fewer games in 98, but he had 124 less AB's than he did in 96. And further still, last year Valentin played in 10 less games than 1996 but had 16 more AB's.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


And these are the numbers he's put up while playing, not necessarily at short:

AB: 368
BA: .267
HR: 25
RBI: 60
TB: 203
OBP: .340
SLG: .526

Those are pretty damn close to the same numbers w/ 21 games left to play. His total bases doesn't relate to playing SS. His RBI don't relate to playing short. Nor does his AB's. So exactly what is your point?

And w/ specific regard to AB's, Valentin currently has 200 less than last season. You suggested that the number of games played corresponds directly to the number of AB's. I can't imagine you thinking he'd get more AB's by playing a certain position. So I assume that you mean that because there were games when Clayton played and Valentin sat that this decreased his AB's.

That would seem an opinion that's shaky at best because in 1998, Valentin played in 151 games compared to the 154 games in 1996 when he had 552 AB's. He played in only 3 fewer games in 98, but he had 124 less AB's than he did in 96. And further still, last year Valentin played in 10 less games than 1996 but had 16 more AB's.

"The point" of course is we aren't getting this production from our shortstop anymore. If Valentin plays short, guys like Herbert Perry, Joe Crede, and (gasp!) Aaron Rowand, and Chris Singleton would have gotten the extra at-bats.

Thus we would reduce the number of sinkholes in our line up by at least one. What a novel concept!

And the fact Valentin has put up his best number both years he got 500+ at-bats and we screwed that up this year by messing around with him in the line up and in the field was 100 percent avoidable, wasn't it?

Go kiss Clayton for me. You obviously love him more than winning.

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Go kiss Clayton for me. You obviously love him more than winning.

Hey now, no need to get insulting. I obviously need to repeat this because you've forgotten, but I never wanted Clatyon on this team. But that doesn't mean that I'll just agree with everything because I didn't like the move.

And by the way, wasn't Singleton one of the sinkholes? And hasn't Clayton hit .350 since the all-star break?

Maybe JM should have put Jose in left instead of at 3rd considering CLee is using a 10 lb ham instead of a mitt these days, and has hit .217 since the break. Maybe those extra at-bats could have come from that sinkhole.

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Hey now, no need to get insulting. I obviously need to repeat this because you've forgotten, but I never wanted Clatyon on this team. But that doesn't mean that I'll just agree with everything because I didn't like the move.


Well, it seems even if you say anything not 100% negative here about Royce that you are attacked and considered to be a huge Royce fan. I'm getting a little tired of it.

Iguana775
09-08-2001, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


some people are just too stubborn to admit they are wrong......

i was one of the clayton bashers and i will admit that he is doing really damn good right now. if fact, if he can finish the season hitting like he has, i wouldnt mind him back next year.

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Well, it seems even if you say anything not 100% negative here about Royce that you are attacked and considered to be a huge Royce fan. I'm getting a little tired of it.

I have to agree... The sarcasm does get a little old... People are supposed to have a free exchange of opinions on this board, that means the Royce supporters should have as free a right to say what they want as anyone else.

IMO, management could turn it down a notch and lose nothing in the process... The over the top graphics and constant belittling of other posters does nothing for the site's reputation...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Maybe JM should have put Jose in left instead of at 3rd considering CLee is using a 10 lb ham instead of a mitt these days, and has hit .217 since the break. Maybe those extra at-bats could have come from that sinkhole.


Royce Clayton in left field! Great idea. Let's clone him for shortstop, centerfield, and catcher, too.

Calls those scientists in England. If they can do it with sheep, why not the MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER on the White Sox?

Spiff
09-08-2001, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I have to agree... The sarcasm does get a little old... People are supposed to have a free exchange of opinions on this board, that means the Royce supporters should have as free a right to say what they want as anyone else.

IMO, management could turn it down a notch and lose nothing in the process... The over the top graphics and constant belittling of other posters does nothing for the site's reputation...

Very old. I mean, I don't like seeing him in the lineup everyday but he has produced of late. Yeh maybe he's partly to blame for the slow start, but I think people should cut him a break.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
IMO, management could turn it down a notch and lose nothing in the process... The over the top graphics and constant belittling of other posters does nothing for the site's reputation...


We have a reputation? LOL, I was hoping to shake it!!!

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



We have a reputation? LOL, I was hoping to shake it!!!

More. I'm starting to see BMR's point.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


Very old. I mean, I don't like seeing him in the lineup everyday but he has produced of late. Yeh maybe he's partly to blame for the slow start, but I think people should cut him a break.

He's been producing since May. And look where we are.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


More. I'm starting to see BMR's point.

If you fail to see the difference between the pages and pages I've written substantiating my distaste for Royce Clayton in our line up versus what Bmr has done, then there really is no hope for you.

At least we're (trying) to have some fun with the subject. Perhaps the joke is lost on you?

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


If you fail to see the difference between the pages and pages I've written substantiating my distaste for Royce Clayton in our line up versus what Bmr has done, then there really is no hope for you.

No, here is what I am saying. You may have backed up your opinion with evidance and whatever stats you wish, but other people are allowed to disagree. If you "like" a player more than another, you can do so. By stating stats, you back up your case well, but that doesn't mean people should be treated like crap because they disagree. The only point I was talking about with BMR was this...some of you bashed him for him coming off as a know-it-all. Like he came off as someone who thought he was better than others and had a more important opinion. But when you put words in others mouths and then be sarcastic with them when they are serious, you come off the same way.

At least we're (trying) to have some fun with the subject. Perhaps the joke is lost on you?

Perhaps its old.

Spiff
09-08-2001, 01:50 PM
I totally agree. It does seem like you're not allowed to disagree or else you're ridiculed. Which might happen now.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 01:57 PM
constant belittling of other posters does nothing for the site's reputation...

I have belittled nobody. I had one debate with idseer about the baserunning of Manos versus the Choice. I don't think idseer or I got out of hand in that one.

In fact, I sit here watching people rip on players I like constantly and pretty much never say squat. Now I'm being accused of not letting people disagree with me. I don't think that is fair or true at all.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2001, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
I totally agree. It does seem like you're not allowed to disagree or else you're ridiculed. Which might happen now.

Please, express your opinions freely. If anyone's response seems less than serious (including my own), please take that person to task--that is of course if your original opinion was of a serious nature.

Everyone here is owed a chance to speak and be heard. Only trolls and spammers have ever been banned.

Spiff
09-08-2001, 02:00 PM
ok then here's my opinion

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
ok then here's my opinion

I like your opinion.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Well, it seems even if you say anything not 100% negative here about Royce that you are attacked and considered to be a huge Royce fan. I'm getting a little tired of it.

Kempers, can you point out where I ever attacked you? I don't recall doing so. If I did, I apologize.

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Kempers, can you point out where I ever attacked you? I don't recall doing so. If I did, I apologize.

You didn't attack me West, nor did I say you did. I was pointing out the atomosphere of the entire board, and several people agreed. I'm not making it up, thats just the way it seems to a lot of people. The whole original post had nothing to do with me being a Royce fan, yet thats what you considered me. I'd take Valentin over Clayton 9 times out of 10, but over the last month or two, I would take Royce. But really, thats not my point now, I'm done talking about Royce Vs. Manos, I am just getting tired of people getting blown off or having words put in their mouth.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I have to agree... The sarcasm does get a little old... People are supposed to have a free exchange of opinions on this board, that means the Royce supporters should have as free a right to say what they want as anyone else.

IMO, management could turn it down a notch and lose nothing in the process... The over the top graphics and constant belittling of other posters does nothing for the site's reputation...

I will remove the Choice statistics from the header since it seems to offend some people. It was a joke and some people took it that way. I will go back to not stating my opinions. I will remain silent while people rip on players I like. Evidently, the "free exchange of opinions" stuff does not include me, but that is OK. I'll keep busy with geek stuff.

Spiff
09-08-2001, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I'll keep busy with geek stuff.

Hey there's something to be said for the geek stuff. Nothing like making a sweet-looking image map or using three floating frames within each other!

The geek stuff is what makes this site what it is.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


Hey there's something to be said for the geek stuff. Nothing like making a sweet-looking image map or using three floating frames within each other!

The geek stuff is what makes this site what it is.

Yep. Plus it appears I get in less trouble if I stick to the geek stuff and leave the baseball to others. :)

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Yep. Plus it appears I get in less trouble if I stick to the geek stuff and leave the baseball to others. :)

West, I hope you don't think I feel that way towards you, but if you do, you are mistaken.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


West, I hope you don't think I feel that way towards you, but if you do, you are mistaken.

Like I said before, I don't recall you and I ever having a problem. In fact, I don't recall having problems with anybody but trolls and spammers. I just think it's best if I keep most of my opinions to myself.

Paulwny
09-08-2001, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Like I said before, I don't recall you and I ever having a problem. In fact, I don't recall having problems with anybody but trolls and spammers. I just think it's best if I keep most of my opinions to myself.

I would think ALL sox fans opinions are important to all of us!!

KempersRS
09-08-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Like I said before, I don't recall you and I ever having a problem. In fact, I don't recall having problems with anybody but trolls and spammers. I just think it's best if I keep most of my opinions to myself.

Well, I think it would be rediculous for you not to be able to express yourself. My gripe had nothing to do with the stats at the top of the page or the banner, or the pictures. I was lmao at the god-like pictures and the banner the first time I saw them, and I wasn't upset with you or anybody for posting them. I was just upset when people started to keep joking when someone else was trying to be serious. Someone would make a good point or ask a question and it would just be ignored or responded to in a sarcastic fashion. It also annoyed me that people were getting ripped on if they said anything that wasn't anti-Clayton or just being labeled Royce-lovers if they even said anything that went against the flow. So, really, I never had a problem with you expressing yourself with the pics and stats, it was just the points I mentioned above on what some posters were doing that got me annoyed.

Paulwny
09-08-2001, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Well, it seems even if you say anything not 100% negative here about Royce that you are attacked and considered to be a huge Royce fan. I'm getting a little tired of it.

When I got on the board this morning I was very surprised. I felt a deep sense of hatred by many people for anyone who had given Clayton any support.

Jjav829
09-08-2001, 03:08 PM
I will remain silent while people rip on players I like.

West I don't think anyone wants you to remain silent. I've missed most of this whole Royce vs. Valentin thing since AT&T Broadband's cable service sucks and it hasn't been up a lot. However this is what I will say. I don't think their is anyone on this team who shouldn't be ripped on. We have no perfect players. Maggs is about the closest thing we have to a perfect player but even he has his flaws. I love Valentin's bat. Theres no one else that I would rather have up in a key situation than him. However in the field he is brutal.(Of course who isn't on this team other than maybe Singleton, and yes, Clayton)

However if you look at Royce with a non biased view, and atleast know something about baseball I don't see how you can not atleast give him some credit for getting his Avg. back up. The guy was hitting under .100 earlier in the season. Can you even imagine what that must feel like to be hitting that bad. I've never played professional baseball but I can imagine there are a lot of bad things that go through someones head when they are struggling that bad. Things such as....Will I ever be able to hit again?, Could this slump prove to be the end of my career? Will any team want me if Im playing this bad? The easy thing would be to just give up and accept that you will have a horrible year. The hard thing would be to work and work and slowly bring your Avg. back up to a decent one. I hated watching Clayton out their earlier in the year, and I was one of the people who really wanted him gone, but I give him a lot of credit for hanging in there and raising his Avg.

You can hate Royce all you want for what he has done in the clubhouse or anything off the field. Im not saying you have to like him because I still really don't like him. But atleast give the guy credit for working his way up from the worst offenseive player in baseball to a middle of the pack guy.

Also I do think a problem is the excessive bias to some players. For instance Carlos Lee is one of my favorites on this team. But Im not going to pretend like he is better than he is. He is awful in the field. I know that and Im not going to lie and say otherwise. He has improved a little defensively but he still has a long way to go. Hes also in a horrible slump right now, and I wouldn't blame Jerry if he benched him for a little while and let him spend a little while just watching others and working on his swing.

Thats my two cents. And if I've completely missed this entire arguement and made myself sound stupid, then ignore this because like I said I haven't read more than about 10% of these posts due to my damn ISP.

Spiff
09-08-2001, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Thats my two cents. And if I've completely missed this entire arguement and made myself sound stupid, then ignore this because like I said I haven't read more than about 10% of these posts due to my damn ISP.

No I think you're right on.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 03:21 PM
Gawd, now we have to whine because we're trying to have some fun with the whole Choice-Manos thing! Geez. Welcome to reality! I have to put up with that coke-snorting, drunk driving, gun toting, wildlife killing, pollution making, slow minded, dimwitted, dickless piece of monkey ***** Daddy's Boy as the Presidunce of the United States!

Is there anything I can do about it? Nope.

Welcome to planet Earth. The people in charge USUALLY get their opinions across moreso than the people not in charge. This isn't rocket science here!

Christ! It's a joke, man. Try not to take baseball too seriously!

Jjav829
09-08-2001, 03:26 PM
Umm ok, well Im lost. Im just gonna shut up and climb back under my rock now because I gave my opinion to what I thought was happening. I'll just go back to making my PTC choices and not posting otherwise.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 03:31 PM
No, J, I think you were right on...

Maybe it is getting a tad out of hand, but cmon, let's face it? What's there left for us? Watch the Sox make a run at Cleveland? Unlikely. Watch the Cubs free-fall continue? It's only funny for so long. We needed something to become the butt of our jokes, and lucky for us Kenny Williams felt we needed to replace our team leader, so The Choice was a natural!

:hitless
I knew I'd be compared to Roy Hobbs one day!

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 03:35 PM
For instance Carlos Lee is one of my favorites on this team.

I really like Carlos, too. It's been a tough second half for him and his few remaining fans this year.

voodoochile
09-08-2001, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


I will remove the Choice statistics from the header since it seems to offend some people. It was a joke and some people took it that way. I will go back to not stating my opinions. I will remain silent while people rip on players I like. Evidently, the "free exchange of opinions" stuff does not include me, but that is OK. I'll keep busy with geek stuff.

Hey... I like it when you offer your opinions (and you do a good job with the geek stuff too), but the last few days the people who run the board have gone out of their way to slam anything that people say positive about Royce. The graphics added to the impact of those statements and it feels like people are fighting a losing battle against "the powers that be" and "the official party line". I would hope you can seperate your responsibilities as one who runs this site from someone who speaks and acts totally as a Sox fan. If I or anyone says something you disagree with, take them to task. When you bring the "full weight of your office to bear" on the situation, it comes across as something entirely different, IMO.

I have said my piece on the subject and hope I have not offended anyone...

Procol Harum
09-08-2001, 04:04 PM
FarWest--you hafta be able to speak your piece about the Sox--don't retreat into just doing the 'puter stuff.

As for me, I took the whole "Royce/Messiah" thread as a complete lark and would have had just as much fun reading and responding if it had been about Manos or any other member of the Sox--I certainly don't "hate" Clayton or anyone who thinks he's the bee's knees. And I think it pretty well put into healthy perspective where baseball arguments really matter in the overall scheme--we get too exercised about some of this stuff.

Anyway, as doublem23 notes, I think this was just a way for a bunch of disappointed, somewhat bored Sox fans to while away the last weeks of a weird, interesting, but ultimately disappointing season. I certainly meant no ill towards any Royce supporters or meant to denigrate the merits of having a baseball-oriented discussion.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 04:06 PM
but the last few days the people who run the board have gone out of their way to slam anything that people say positive about Royce.

Actually, the only debate I engaged in was about baserunning. And I don't think it got out of hand.

I admit I got a little carried away on Royce's stats in that graphic I removed. But, it really was a joke and not meant to belittle anybody. I apologize to those I offended.

doublem23
09-08-2001, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
Anyway, as doublem23 notes, I think this was just a way for a bunch of disappointed, somewhat bored Sox fans to while away the last weeks of a weird, interesting, but ultimately disappointing season. I certainly meant no ill towards any Royce supporters or meant to denigrate the merits of having a baseball-oriented discussion.

Well said. Yeah, I want Royce out of here as much as anyone, but I don't hate anyone who can provide evidence why Royce should stay. Also, I don't root against Royce. The bottom line is I WANT TO WIN, but the only way I see that happening is if we play Manos at short.

idseer
09-08-2001, 07:55 PM
just now read this thread.

i know i am one of the ones who has made some positive claims about royce, specifically his fielding. i only felt he'd been bashed unfairly vs jose w/claims of jose's range being so much better. imo my stats show it's not true. i also claimed i thought he'd be at short next season, not because i desired it but because i think the sox do.

when phg 1st made a reply i thought he was mad, but what i didn't know was he apparently had just had a long argument re royce and maybe thought i was being ..... obtuse? after that it became a respectable discussion for the most part .... until i mentioned royce had way more stolen bases than jose. that seemed to infuriate fws! not sure just why. but i don't think anything got out of hand either. while they and others did carry on with it i personally felt it was just in fun and when doublem23 posted that 'godly' pic i just lost it.

in any event i don't think anyone was trying to be cruel about it. while i am a very long time fan i don't profess to know it all and hope i don't come off that way (tho i do love to mix it up sometimes). in fact, most of what i know about the current sox these last 2 years has come from here and the espn board, so i'm just grateful this site exists.

so anyway this is to let the powers that be that i've taken no offense to anything said here yet and hope i've given none.

Kilroy
09-08-2001, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by idseer
so anyway this is to let the powers that be that i've taken no offense to anything said here yet and hope i've given none.

Same from me me. I only reply to this thread reluctantly. I don't wanna get this going again.

FarWestChicago
09-08-2001, 08:06 PM
while they and others did carry on with it i personally felt it was just in fun and when doublem23 posted that 'godly' pic i just lost it.

It was all supposed to be in fun. Hell, I was bored and started a graphic. Then I started getting suggestions for additions and it kind of grew, LOL!