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View Full Version : Sox most UNIMPROVED team in AL


munchman33
02-19-2004, 01:29 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1738161

What a shocker. :o:

CubKilla
02-19-2004, 01:36 PM
:D: :D: :D: :D: :D:

They're a joke.

cheeses_h_rice
02-19-2004, 02:13 PM
MOST UNLIKELY NAMES ON SPRING-TRAINING ROSTERS:

1. Henry Rodriguez, Pirates (Hit last big-league homer four years ago. Since then: 1-for-28.)

Is this "Oh Henry" from the magical 1998 Flubs?

South Sider
02-19-2004, 02:13 PM
Now everyone knows what all Sox-Fans already knew.....what a miserable winter.

Thank you very much JR & KW

2004 will be a very hard to watch for all of us.

My hopes go to 2005.....already !

Maybe we're all wrong......but this is very hard to believe.....right now :-(

Tekijawa
02-19-2004, 02:15 PM
Remember in the stretch run of the 2000 season when they wouldn't go out and get another pitcher for the play offs because they, "were a year ahead of schedule!"


Has it been a year yet?

jeremyb1
02-19-2004, 02:50 PM
I agree this team is so stupid. If we were smarter we woudln't have added Colon, Everett, Alomar, and Sullivan last season and then we would've been much higher on the list.

Baseball analysts are idiots. They're almost as dumb as some of the lesser GMs in baseball. Valentin is one of the best fielding shortstops in baseball. He's certainly a great deal better than Jeter but I doubt anyone will talk about the Yankees losing games because "12 hummers" can be driven up the middle.

munchman33
02-19-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Is this "Oh Henry" from the magical 1998 Flubs?

The very same Cheeses.

ChiSox14305635
02-19-2004, 03:55 PM
And which NL team wins the dubious title of most improved team: Philadelphia. What a coincidence! The author picked the most improved team from the same city he writes in!



ESPN and all of their East Coast writers can go to Hades in a gasoline soaked jockstrap for all I care.

Mammoo
02-19-2004, 04:02 PM
I hope they're proud over on 35th Street :angry:

ChiSox7
02-19-2004, 04:04 PM
Last year we were the most improved team and we saw where that got us. Let everyone count us out. Thats exactly what I want.

voodoochile
02-19-2004, 04:27 PM
Actually, you might even go so far to change the UNIMPROVED to DISIMPROVED (if there actually is such a word). This team didn't merely stand still, it went backwards from where they were at the end of the season...

Baby Fisk
02-19-2004, 04:39 PM
It's not like we can even revel as dark horses or underdogs. We are OUTERDOGS, not even in the same dog show.

How many people will abandon ship if the Sox start the season 0-6?

KingXerxes
02-19-2004, 04:40 PM
:farmer

"I know a lot of fans think that we've DISIMPROVED to OUTERDOG status."

:rooney

"Huh?"

voodoochile
02-19-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I don't think we've DISIMPROVED to OUTERDOG status.

now that sounds like something Hawk would say *cough*hinthint*cough*

KingXerxes
02-19-2004, 05:26 PM
:hawk

"Ya know Wimpy..."

:DJ

"It's DJ"

:hawk

"Whatever..........Mercy.....The Ol' St. Louis Browns........now there was a group of outerdogs. Their front office was so screwed up that one time, Ol' Bobo Newsome was traded for himself in a move that cost them Rube Waddel, and Rube Marquard.........yessir..........Ol' Rube Waddel was probably the finest third baseman I have ever seen play - and his brother Rube Marquard - well let me tell you Don if you hit a ball anywhere near him in centerfield he was going to run it down."

:DJ

"It's DJ................................................ .and another thing Rube Waddel and Rube Marquard were both pitchers, and they were not brothers. Brothers have the same last name, not the same nickname."

:hawk

"Yessir..............the Rube Brothers..............mercy.........second best set of brothers I ever saw play...........Go ahead and guess who the best set was there what ever your name is..........."

:DJ

"You and Dummy Hoy?"

hftrex
02-19-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, you might even go so far to change the UNIMPROVED to DISIMPROVED (if there actually is such a word). This team didn't merely stand still, it went backwards from where they were at the end of the season...


What makes you so sure? Remember, last year when Estaban Loaiza was signed, nobody here predicted that he was going to go 21-9. This year, like last year, the Sox have made a lot of minor league contracts and spring training invitations. If they could come up with someone like Loaiza last year, then there's no reason why they can't do it again.

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 05:42 PM
I will still contend that we are in the same situation as last year with 2 dependent starters at the beginning (From Buerhle and Colon to Buehrle and Loaiza) and Garland showed me last year that he can be a consistantly good starter for a long period of time without having a real bad game. And with Colon's mediocre numbers last year (except IP), I dont see any reason why Garland can't match those.

Gordon was a question mark going into last season who was coming off an injury and he had his 2nd best career year last year. Cliff Politte is also a a good reliever, but the only difference is that the injury plagued him during the season last year.
There is no reason that Politte can't be this year's Tom gordon.

Remember how mad so many people here were when we signed Gordon? We had signed that injured old reliever who wouldn't do anything? And now everyone is mad because we didnt want to match the yankees offer, which is impossible actually. He will likely have a worse year this year as he is getting older.

Everett was a great pickup MIDSEASON and Alomar wasn't even that great.

We had sullivan for all of 2 months.

The Failure to get Grafanino back was the only thing which is unacceptable in my book.

The fact is that we were going to keep Colon or Maggs, but we couldnt match the Angels offer, so we were gonna keep maggs.

KW bolstered our bullpen and made some intriguing ST invitations such as Jose Santiago. I really believe that we arent that unimproved compared to last year. We have a HIGHER opening day salary because we forced the teams we traded with to pay for nearly all of who they gave to us.

voodoochile
02-19-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
What makes you so sure? Remember, last year when Estaban Loaiza was signed, nobody here predicted that he was going to go 21-9. This year, like last year, the Sox have made a lot of minor league contracts and spring training invitations. If they could come up with someone like Loaiza last year, then there's no reason why they can't do it again.

They are still worse than they were at the END of last season.

poorme
02-19-2004, 06:33 PM
surely, we can pick up a 21 game winner off the trash heap every year....

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by poorme
surely, we can pick up a 21 game winner off the trash heap every year....

No. But we dont really need to nor expect to. I think it wouldnt be unreasonable to expect that one starter not named Garland, Buehrle or Loaiza will be able to come in an dwin about 12 or so games with not too many losses and with an ERA in the 4-4.5 range.

poorme
02-19-2004, 07:25 PM
Oh, it gets tedious trying to reason with someone who has faith in something without any reasonable evidence.

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Oh, it gets tedious trying to reason with someone who has faith in something without any reasonable evidence.

First of all, I do give some pretty good evidence if you read my posts. Second of all, read this thread:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29387

poorme
02-19-2004, 07:47 PM
I've read every one of your posts. I don't care how people felt about our team a year ago. You can actually look at results, not feelings. The results are we won 86 games. We have not improved, we have lost more talent than we have gained.

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I've read every one of your posts. I don't care how people felt about our team a year ago. You can actually look at results, not feelings. The results are we won 86 games. We have not improved, we have lost more talent than we have gained.

But you completely fail to account that last years' team underacheived mightily. The average team with that Runs for/runs against ratio would win 91 games and the team easily could have won 95 games. When you look at it that way and then take the "The team we are opening this year with is only worse by the Colon departure" approach and then add a few games because we have 70-80 games against the other teams in the worst division in baseball, you might be able to see where I'm coming from.

You can chose not to believe me, but it's unfair to call me irrational, which I know you haven't but you've certainly implied it.

I've looked at plenty of stats and trends over this long offseason and that's what had lead me to this conclusion.

DSpivack
02-19-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
No. But we dont really need to nor expect to. I think it wouldnt be unreasonable to expect that one starter not named Garland, Buehrle or Loaiza will be able to come in an dwin about 12 or so games with not too many losses and with an ERA in the 4-4.5 range.

Who? I know someone could come out of the blue like Loaiza, but at least Loaiza came in as a bad-mediocre veteran starter; no invitee this year is even that good. Jason Grilli? Scott Schoenweis? Robert Person- oh, wait. Ugh.

Why can't I be a fan of a team w/ a decent owner? Well, at least the same can't be said of any other Chicago team. Oh, wait.

Daver
02-19-2004, 08:11 PM
I've looked at plenty of stats and trends over this long offseason and that's what had lead me to this conclusion.


Stats don't play the games,players do.

poorme
02-19-2004, 08:23 PM
That's true but if we are going to prognosticate, it's the best thing we have.

Lip Man 1
02-19-2004, 09:37 PM
Jeremy says: "Baseball analysts are idiots."

But of course fantasy players and baseball stat geeks are GODS!

and remember the Sox do VERY WELL for the money they spend! LOL

Lip

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Stats don't play the games,players do.

They are an indicator of what players are doing and they can lead one to an educated opinion of how many wins you can expect from a team

Daver
02-19-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
They are an indicator of what players are doing and they can lead one to an educated opinion of how many wins you can expect from a team

You have a VERY broad trust in something that has way to many variables.

I'll stick to basing my expectations on talent,or the lack thereof.

SoxxoS
02-19-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
They are an indicator of what players are doing and they can lead one to an educated opinion of how many wins you can expect from a team

What was the expected win total for the Marlins last year and the Angels in 2002?

MRKARNO
02-19-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
You have a VERY broad trust in something that has way to many variables.

I'll stick to basing my expectations on talent,or the lack thereof.

Stats are the products of talent and it's not like I'm betting my house on 91 wins. It's just the combination of stats and how I feel about the team that led to this conclusion. I feel good about this team because I think ozzie is a plus. I feel good about this team because they arent the favorites this year. I feel good about this team because rowand is healthy and because Harris and Konerko just cant get any worse. Because Garland was looking better tafter a bad start last year. Because Crede was really good after the break. I dont feel as if they'll start out so weak in April and May like years past because ozzie will keep them awake.

It's not justs stats, though stats are a significant part of my equation, but there's also a personal part to it as well and I am an optimist when it comes to our White Sox. I thought they'd win 99 games last year en route to a World Series title. Based on the previous success of the Angels most specifically, I dont see why this sox team is barred from the World Series this year.

ChiSoxBobette
02-20-2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1738161

What a shocker. :o:
Who cares what that douche bag thinks they're all scrub/red sox lovers anyway. The part about Maggs wanting out I've never heard Magglio say anything about wanting out its our owner/gm who want to get rid of him because next year he's going to ask for what he's worth and of course JR want bargain bottom players and a full stadium and when that does'nt happen of course its the fans fault because we don't come out and support the team. Its time for Reinsdorf to sell this team to someone who really wants to compete for a world series. A 50+ million dollar a year payroll does'nt get you to the playoff unless you have an exceptional minor league system and we don't.

red faber
02-23-2004, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I agree this team is so stupid. If we were smarter we woudln't have added Colon, Everett, Alomar, and Sullivan last season and then we would've been much higher on the list.

Baseball analysts are idiots. They're almost as dumb as some of the lesser GMs in baseball. Valentin is one of the best fielding shortstops in baseball. He's certainly a great deal better than Jeter but I doubt anyone will talk about the Yankees losing games because "12 hummers" can be driven up the middle.

valentin better than jeter????????????

that is such a reach ,it ain't even funny!!!!!!!

MRKARNO
02-23-2004, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by red faber
valentin better than jeter????????????

that is such a reach ,it ain't even funny!!!!!!!

Not entirely. Valentin has pretty darn good range. The reason for a lot of his errors? He's attempting to make a play on balls that most SSs would let go past the infield. Jeter has awful range, but makes a few flashy plays once in a while.

munchman33
02-23-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by red faber
valentin better than jeter????????????

that is such a reach ,it ain't even funny!!!!!!!

While I definately don't agree that Valentin is better than Jeter, I'd much rather have Valentin and his one year, $5 million contract than that albatros Jeter has. Jeter's contract puts all arguements of Valentin getting overpaid in perspective.

Baby Fisk
02-23-2004, 05:29 PM
A-Rod will be starting SS by July. It will be an MLB version of the quarterback controversy.

IronFisk
02-23-2004, 05:53 PM
Whatever. I've about given up on this predicting crap in baseball. Looking at the last two seasons (Angels and Marlins), who the hell knows what's going on anymore. Yeah the Yankees will be there (yawn), and the sCrUBS are hard to overlook.

I'm not a Jerry or Kenny fan, but this might just be the best team for Guillen to manage - save for another starter. Okay, I'll take proven talent anyday, but this is what we are dealt, and who knows, maybe another 2000? Look, we've made big deals the last three years and got burned, maybe this is for the best when all said and done :?: .