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View Full Version : Kornerko/Mags penchant for GIDP mocked


Bisco Stu
02-19-2004, 03:37 AM
on ESPN radio tonight, with Jason Stark who was reading off his 'useless information' and one was that Kornerko and Mags are 1/2 in GIDP in this decade so far. Spaced on the totals, something like 84 Pawley, 83 Mags, Kornerko had 1 more.

Winning_Ugly
02-19-2004, 06:42 AM
I think that it was on this very web site that someone referred to Konerko as the 'Human Double Play'.

You can see 2003 stats of 'double play rate for batters' on Baseball Prospectus at: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/bat_dp_rate2003.htm

Scroll down to see the 2 worst offenders in the AL in 2003; PK and Maggs, who, cumulatively, ground into 52 dp's (116 outs!) in only 213 opportunities (almost 25% of the time)! And Carlos Lee was the 12th worst offender in the AL.

Maybe that's why Ozzie keeps going on about bunting........

Hullett_Fan
02-19-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Winning_Ugly
Scroll down to see the 2 worst offenders in the AL in 2003; PK and Maggs, who, cumulatively, ground into 52 dp's (116 outs!) in only 213 opportunities (almost 25% of the time)!

That's why I'm against giving Maggs the big $$$. He doesn;t come through in the clutch and is as slow as molasses (though not as slow as PK). That money is better spent on Carlos Beltran or Garret Anderson or Jose Vidro or Edgar Rentaria or...

jabrch
02-19-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
That's why I'm against giving Maggs the big $$$. He doesn;t come through in the clutch and is as slow as molasses (though not as slow as PK). That money is better spent on Carlos Beltran or Garret Anderson or Jose Vidro or Edgar Rentaria or...

Beltran - agreed
GA - agreed


Vidro - Are you proposing we give him 13mm? - we have too many holes and to tight a budget to have that kind of luxury item at 2B.

Renteria - NO WAY - NO FREAKING WAY He'd have to do a lot this year to prove he is worth the kind of money he will want. Take out last year and his career numbers are not all that great. Anyhow, there will be a glut of FA SS this year - so he shouldn't be close to that expensive.

Hullett_Fan
02-19-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Beltran - agreed
GA - agreed


Vidro - Are you proposing we give him 13mm? - we have too many holes and to tight a budget to have that kind of luxury item at 2B.

Renteria - NO WAY - NO FREAKING WAY He'd have to do a lot this year to prove he is worth the kind of money he will want. Take out last year and his career numbers are not all that great. Anyhow, there will be a glut of FA SS this year - so he shouldn't be close to that expensive.


Sorry, no, not 13mm for Vidro but definitely 6-8mm. We have nothing in the way of middle infielders on the major or minor league rosters.

I agree, it remains to be seen if Renteria can put up another year like last year, but if he does, I'd offer him 6-8mm for the same reasons as Vidro.

Sox need to spend the $$$ on pitching and high OBP/OPS types...not corner OFers who ground into DPs

Konerko05
02-19-2004, 12:02 PM
Did you guys ever take into account that both of these guys have batted after Thomas for the decade? Not only does Thomas get on base at a high rate but he is also a slow runner.

Both Konerko and Magglio are righthanded hitters who hit the ball hard so right off the bat they are very prone to hit into double plays. Neither are burners on the basepaths so of course they aren't going to beat out routine double play balls.

Don't get me wrong by my User Name, I'm not a Konerko lover(this name was made about 5 years ago). I want him gone probably even more than most of you. I'm just saying that there are other factors involved besides they are "non-clutch" hitters.

Foulke You
02-19-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Konerko05
Did you guys ever take into account that both of these guys have batted after Thomas for the decade? Not only does Thomas get on base at a high rate but he is also a slow runner.

Both Konerko and Magglio are righthanded hitters who hit the ball hard so right off the bat they are very prone to hit into double plays. Neither are burners on the basepaths so of course they aren't going to beat out routine double play balls.

Don't get me wrong by my User Name, I'm not a Konerko lover(this name was made about 5 years ago). I want him gone probably even more than most of you. I'm just saying that there are other factors involved besides they are "non-clutch" hitters.

Good point. I never considered the fact that Thomas is a contributor to their DP stats even though he gets on base. It certainly could help inflate their DP numbers. Although, Konerko could be the slowest man in baseball and there are plenty of grounders or would be DPs that even a below average runner would beat out.

Also, I disagree with the poster who said Ordonez is slow. He isn't blazing speed by any means, but I'd rate his speed as average. Konerko, on the other hand is pulling 4 meat wagons behind him.

ondafarm
02-19-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Konerko05
Did you guys ever take into account that both of these guys have batted after Thomas for the decade? Not only does Thomas get on base at a high rate but he is also a slow runner.

Both Konerko and Magglio are righthanded hitters who hit the ball hard so right off the bat they are very prone to hit into double plays. Neither are burners on the basepaths so of course they aren't going to beat out routine double play balls.


Thomas is only going to give you more opportunity to ground into double plays, he doesn't cause you to ground into a single additional one.

Frank Thomas is also a right handed power hitter and he doesn't ground into many double plays at all.

This also explains a great deal of the Sagarin factor preference for FT.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-19-2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by ondafarm
Thomas is only going to give you more opportunity to ground into double plays, he doesn't cause you to ground into a single additional one.

Frank Thomas is also a right handed power hitter and he doesn't ground into many double plays at all.

This also explains a great deal of the Sagarin factor preference for FT.

Thanks for posting this. I half-expected to read an opinion that Frank's bad attitude was forcing Maggs and Konerko into hitting into all those double-plays. :smile:

Here is the truth every manager in the league knows and acts on. Frank is more dangerous at the plate with a bat in his hand than he is at first base with a walk... especially with those two out machines coming up to bat. They get themselves out, and rack up Frank Thomas in the process. It's a winning strategy.

TheRockinMT
02-19-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Thanks for posting this. I half-expected to read an opinion that Frank's bad attitude was forcing Maggs and Konerko into hitting into all those double-plays. :smile:

Here is the truth every manager in the league knows and acts on. Frank is more dangerous at the plate with a bat in his hand than he is at first base with a walk... especially with those two out machines coming up to bat. They get themselves out, and rack up Frank Thomas in the process. It's a winning strategy.


It isn't necessarily poor hitting that causes a GIDP. Frank, PK and Maggs hit the ball hard and if it's on the ground and the runner at 1st is not in motion there is a chance for a DP. That may be the main reason that Ozzie wants to put his runner in gear and do more hit and run. We have some slow guys so doing something aggressive when appropriate is a good strategy and may get a few more runners to third.

hellenicsoxfan
02-19-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Winning_Ugly

Scroll down to see the 2 worst offenders in the AL in 2003; PK and Maggs, who, cumulatively, ground into 52 dp's (116 outs!) [/B]

Wouldn't that be 104 outs? (Sorry, the math geek in me got loose for a minute.)

These stats just seem to emphasize what has been one of the Sox biggest problems the last few years. The lack of speed has hurt them so much. How many rallies have been killed by double plays? Also, I'd like to see statistics about teams who can manufacture runs. I would bet that the Sox are near the bottom there too.
When Frank and Paulie are on base, they clog the basepaths and the Sox are forced to play station to station baseball or hope for a home run. Maggs and Carlos Lee run the bases better, but their decisions often leave a lot to be desired.
Is Ozzie going to bat Harris/Valentin at the top of the order? If so, and if they are getting on base, I think Ozzie will turn them loose. That would shake things up, put pressure on the opposing pitchers, help the Sox score more runs and hopefully, cut down on the double plays. It would also be fun to watch.

Jerko
02-20-2004, 08:33 AM
Well, maybe after 3 years of watching the same 2 guys hit into DP's you'd start the runner on the pitch more than twice a year. I am ASSUMING our manager at the time (cough, Manuel) KNEW that Thomas, Konerko, and Maggs aren't the fleetest a-foot. There ARE ways to avoid DP's managerial-wise too you know.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 08:38 AM
I wonder how many rallies killed and potential runs scored these two idiots cost us over the past few years, especially last year, when we had the division within our grasps.

I'd almost rather see these two just start swinging for the fences when there is a runner on 1st and less than two outs. A stike out is better than a GIDP in that siuation. Jim Thome struck out 182 times last year, but only had 5 GIDPs.

The first time Konerko comes up with a runner on 1st and less than two next year, I hope Ozzie gives him the "Take Three" sign.

South Sider
02-20-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
We have some slow guys so doing something aggressive when appropriate is a good strategy and may get a few more runners to third.

And then...?????.....then the Sox will find a way to leave the man there (at 3rd).

Man on 3rd with less then 2 out.....every Sox Fan know what will come (at least in the last 3 years)

Hullett_Fan
02-20-2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by South Sider
And then...?????.....then the Sox will find a way to leave the man there (at 3rd).

Man on 3rd with less then 2 out.....every Sox Fan know what will come (at least in the last 3 years)

Yep. Leaving guys on 3rd (or 2nd), or GIDPs happen because these guys (especially PK and Maggs) try to PULL the ball every darn time! When these guys are on a hot streak they're hitting the ball the other way...unfortunately those streaks are few and far between.

TheRockinMT
02-20-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Yep. Leaving guys on 3rd (or 2nd), or GIDPs happen because these guys (especially PK and Maggs) try to PULL the ball every darn time! When these guys are on a hot streak they're hitting the ball the other way...unfortunately those streaks are few and far between.


But, Ozzie says the team will play the game the right way.

Hullett_Fan
02-20-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
But, Ozzie says the team will play the game the right way.


LOL!!!