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View Full Version : Time To Trade Thomas NOW


Happy Felsch Fan
02-18-2004, 03:22 PM
Apparantly the stars are all aligned for Thomas to be moved.
KW and Guillen seem to want him out.
Thomas seems to want out.
The Dodgers would like Thomas.

Thomas is the greatest right handed BATTER in Sox history. Thanks for the memories Frank.

Thomas is also not the same player he used to be.
His 14 Season Totals Based On 162 games is:
AB 579
Hits 179
Runs 110
HR 37
RBI 122
OB .428
BA .310

In the period 1994 thru 1997 Frank was putting up Hall of Fame numbers the averaged .464 OB during that period with around 40 HR's per season.

His Totals the Last Six Years1997-2003 (not including injury shortened 2001) Based ON 162 games a is:
AB 542
Hits 159
Runs 95
HR 32
OB .406
Ave. .294

In fact his totals for his first six full years starting in 1991 would look like this:
AB 516
Runs 106
HR 36
OB .453
Ave. 328

He is in his 15th season and has limited defensive abilities, is a poor base runner. His OB the last two years is .375 which is decent especially on the OB challanged Sox but a far cry from his best years.
My point is not that he isn't still a productive player, but that he is not producing at peak any longer. The time to trade Thomas while he still has value. I want more than Perez. Make them overpay.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 03:25 PM
Agreed

poorme
02-18-2004, 03:33 PM
Shhh. Don't tell the Dodgers of his immanent demise!

hold2dibber
02-18-2004, 03:40 PM
As a general rule, I'm open to trading anyone at any time if it makes the team better.


But ...

Frank, while not at the Ted Williams-like level he was at 10 years ago, is still a much better than average ball player. I believe he had the 6th highest OPS in the AL last year and was 2nd in HR. He also lead the Sox in OBP. In other words, he was the Sox best hitter last year. Regardless of whether he is as good as he used to be, he's still the best (or 2nd best after Maggs) on the team. Why would you want to trade one of the best 2 hitters on your team, particularly when he is locked in for at least 2 more years at a reasonable salary? I mean, if the Cubs want to trade prior for Thomas or if the Phillies would give us Abreu and Wolff, I'm all for it. But trading Frank would leave a huge hole in the Sox line-up, so I'd have to be blown away to do it.

And that's not even mentioning that it would be pretty cool for him to spend his whole career in a Sox uniform and hit his 500th HR in a Sox uniform.

npdempse
02-18-2004, 03:45 PM
Frank's a bargain. If his production this season is anything like it was last season, we'd regret trading him. So he's hard to get along with. So was Cobb.

Happy Felsch Fan
02-18-2004, 03:54 PM
If its Frank for Perez I would really be pissed. I would rather trade Frank for a position player rather than pitching, unless its at least two of the Dodgers best young arms. I would like to see us with a young shortstop that Ozzie could groom. That being said I don't know if the Dodgers have anybody that would fit that description.

akingamongstmen
02-18-2004, 04:06 PM
I can't take it anymore. I'm so sick of hearing that Perez for Big Frank could or should happen. Perez had one ok year...he's nothing special. As a matter of fact, I think that he would be a complete disaster in the AL (A 4+ ERA in the NL???). Frank, while never great with the media, has always been great where it counts...on the field. People are forgetting that he is, even now, one of the better hitters around. I know that he's not necessarily in his prime now, but he still can knock the cover off of the ball. It's time for White Sox fans to support a guy that's always been there for us. We need to stop all of the whining and just let the games be played.

Rocky Soprano
02-18-2004, 04:10 PM
DO NOT TRADE FRANK! YOU DO NOT TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER!

soxrme
02-18-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
DO NOT TRADE FRANK! YOU DO NOT TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER!

What he said :)

Mickster
02-18-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
DO NOT TRADE FRANK! YOU DO NOT TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER!

Thank you! How many players in this day and age actually play their entire careers with the same team? e.g. Cal Ripkin Jr., etc..

We need SOME good PR for a change.

munchman33
02-18-2004, 04:17 PM
You can't get that kind of production from someone at that salary level. Frank is only making 6 million dollars, and he's one of the best hitters in the league. Trading him would be foolish. You'd never get fair market value, based on production vs. salary.

Jjav829
02-18-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Mickster
Thank you! How many players in this day and age actually play their entire careers with the same team? e.g. Cal Ripkin Jr., etc..

We need SOME good PR for a change.

You know what's good PR? Winning. Seriously, I'm tired of all this "Frank needs to be here because he's been a White Sox his entire life" crap. If you think Frank should be here because the team is better with him than with whatever we would get for him, fine. I can't say I disagree since it doesn't sound like we'll get a lot for him. But all these grand visions of Frank accomplishing such and such feat in a White Sox uniform is nice, but I'd rather win. I mean how many people here who weren't at the game last year actually remember Frank's 400th? Maybe a handful of die hard Frank fans, but that moment ranks probably no higher than 163rd on my list of White Sox memories from 2003.

With all this Arod crap the past few days, I've constantly been reminded of Branch Rickey's saying "Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late." I think this is an instance that may apply too. Frank was a great player for the Sox. Arguably the best White Sox ever. But keeping him for some sentimental reason is ridiculous. Frank is soon to be 36. It's possible that he will regress every year. So if the Dodgers come calling and the Sox can trade him, they owe it to themselves to listen. Now Odalis Perez for him doesn't cut for me.

Certain moments are nice, but the ultimate goal of any team should be to win. At every moment you should be constructing your team to be ready to win either in the future, the present, or both. That's it. I frankly hope it never crosses KW's mind that he has to keep Frank because the fans deserve to see Frank finish his career in a White Sox uniform. That would be nice, but not if it is counterproductive to your ultimate goal of winning. This is the same mindset which led the Cubs to play Fred McWhiff at 1B two years ago so that he could get 500 HR's rather than going with Hee Seop Choi.

Again, I'm not advocating trading Frank necessarily. If your reason for keeping Frank is that you feel he has a few more good years in him and the Sox would be a better team with Frank Thomas rather than whoever we would acquire in a trade for him, think that way. But if your only reason for wanting to keep Frank is because you want to see him finish his career in a White Sox uniform, or hit his 500th HR as a White Sox, etc. then you really need to evaluate what you truly want as a fan. All I want is a World Series victories. Anything that comes as a by-product of trying to achieve that goal is nice as long as it doesn't interfere with the ultimate goal.

batmanZoSo
02-18-2004, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Happy Felsch Fan
[B]

In the period 1994 thru 1997 Frank was putting up Hall of Fame numbers the averaged .464 OB during that period with around 40 HR's per season.

His Totals the Last Six Years1997-2003 (not including injury shortened 2001) Based ON 162 games a is:
AB 542
Hits 159
Runs 95
HR 32
OB .406
Ave. .294


.294 32 95 with a .406 on-base. Yeah, he s#cks.

I take it you have no problems with Konerko who makes more money and is half the hitter Thomas is when he's going good (and he certainly is not), or Lee, who's career year won't match Thomas' rookie year and can't run the bases.

Kilroy
02-18-2004, 06:20 PM
All those "trade Thomas" folks out there just don't know what we have. They'll know when he's gone tho...

Mickster
02-18-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
If your reason for keeping Frank is that you feel he has a few more good years in him and the Sox would be a better team with Frank Thomas rather than whoever we would acquire in a trade for him, think that way. But if your only reason for wanting to keep Frank is because you want to see him finish his career in a White Sox uniform, or hit his 500th HR as a White Sox, etc. then you really need to evaluate what you truly want as a fan. All I want is a World Series victories. Anything that comes as a by-product of trying to achieve that goal is nice as long as it doesn't interfere with the ultimate goal.

My "sentimental" feelings are not the only reasons:

1. Take Thomas out of the lineup, and insert Odalis Perez and tell me if the sox are better either today or tomorrow. Answer: NO WAY.

2. Take Thomas out of the lineup, and what does the heart of the lineup look like? Answer: Certainly less than devistating.

3. Who are you going to get to replace Thomas' production last year at $6mil per? (arguably one of the best bargains in baseball)

4. Is there any guarantee that:
a. Perez pitches as well as he has for LA (not very well to begin with) vs. the cell?
b. We will be able to sign him to a long term deal (his contract expires this year and I feel we will be trading one "cancer" for another)?

To say that we want Thomas for Perez/Mota/Jackson is wishful thinking. There heve been numerous "rumors" floating around, none of which mention Thomas or Konerko for anyone other than Perez straight-up. If KW or Ozzie have a personal problem with FT and just wants him out, yaeh I have a problem wit that.

I agree that the ultimate goal is winning a WS, but trading FT for Perez does not take us closer to that goal.

Happy Felsch Fan
02-18-2004, 10:38 PM
You Posted:I take it you have no problems with Konerko who makes more money and is half the hitter Thomas is when he's going good (and he certainly is not), or Lee, who's career year won't match Thomas' rookie year and can't run the bases.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would greatly prefer to trade Konerko instead of Thomas. If the Dodgers offered Konerko for Perez or a prospects I would take it. Konerko obviously is not the hitter Big Hurt is and he is even slower than Frank. While Carlos Lee is mistake prone at least he is not a sloth on the bases.

I think that Carlos still has better years ahead of him, while Konerko and Thomas may not ever reach their career highs again.

gosox41
02-19-2004, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Happy Felsch Fan
Apparantly the stars are all aligned for Thomas to be moved.
KW and Guillen seem to want him out.
Thomas seems to want out.
The Dodgers would like Thomas.

Thomas is the greatest right handed BATTER in Sox history. Thanks for the memories Frank.

Thomas is also not the same player he used to be.
His 14 Season Totals Based On 162 games is:
AB 579
Hits 179
Runs 110
HR 37
RBI 122
OB .428
BA .310

In the period 1994 thru 1997 Frank was putting up Hall of Fame numbers the averaged .464 OB during that period with around 40 HR's per season.

His Totals the Last Six Years1997-2003 (not including injury shortened 2001) Based ON 162 games a is:
AB 542
Hits 159
Runs 95
HR 32
OB .406
Ave. .294

In fact his totals for his first six full years starting in 1991 would look like this:
AB 516
Runs 106
HR 36
OB .453
Ave. 328

He is in his 15th season and has limited defensive abilities, is a poor base runner. His OB the last two years is .375 which is decent especially on the OB challanged Sox but a far cry from his best years.
My point is not that he isn't still a productive player, but that he is not producing at peak any longer. The time to trade Thomas while he still has value. I want more than Perez. Make them overpay.

Why do people keep saying Thomas wants out?

Bob

hold2dibber
02-19-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Why do people keep saying Thomas wants out?

Bob

If I were him, I'd probably want out. The organization has treated him pretty poorly lately, the fans in general are pretty crappy to him (he was mercilessly and unfairly booed at home constantly in '02), and the team seems far away from being a World Series contender.

kittle42
02-19-2004, 09:56 AM
At this point, I really don't want to trade anyone except Koch if at all possible.

Huisj
02-19-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Mickster
My "sentimental" feelings are not the only reasons:

1. Take Thomas out of the lineup, and insert Odalis Perez and tell me if the sox are better either today or tomorrow. Answer: NO WAY.

2. Take Thomas out of the lineup, and what does the heart of the lineup look like? Answer: Certainly less than devistating.

3. Who are you going to get to replace Thomas' production last year at $6mil per? (arguably one of the best bargains in baseball)



Exactly. Remember his stretch at the end of august last year when it pretty much seemed like he was hitting a home run per game for a week or two. Tell me that didn't strike fear into opposing pitchers. Tell me that didn't help the entire rest of the lineup get good pitches to hit. Tell me that that wasn't worth more than a mediocre starting pitcher.

kempsted
02-19-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Exactly. Remember his stretch at the end of august last year when it pretty much seemed like he was hitting a home run per game for a week or two. Tell me that didn't strike fear into opposing pitchers. Tell me that didn't help the entire rest of the lineup get good pitches to hit. Tell me that that wasn't worth more than a mediocre starting pitcher.

Agreed. During this stretch at one point - in one game Frank was intentionally walked 2 times to get to Maggs. That was fear.

Frank is are all time best hitter that is true, but the real reason that you don't want to trade him is he was our best offensive player LAST YEAR - not 5 years ago, not in his prime - Last year. As others have pointed out he is cheep right now as well. No way you trade Frank - not because we want to keep him a Sox uniform for his career (although we probably do) but because almost anything someone will offer is a downgrade.

SoxxoS
02-19-2004, 11:06 PM
I say we see how the first 2 months of the season goes, first. I am all for trading Frank, but unfortunately we don't have the firepower in the lineup to replace him. IF Paulie is back in his old form (we should know that fairly soon), that would make Frank expendable. And the chances are the Dodgers will want him, and we will want some pitching from the Dodgers in a few months.

But if Konerko stumbles out of the gates, that leaves a gaping hole at 1B or DH, which leaves a gaping hole in the middle of the lineup. I don't think Ross Gload can pick up the slack of Frank Thomas.

There is always the wildcard of moving Carlos Lee to 1B and bringing Jeremy Reed/Borchard up.

chisox06
02-19-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
DO NOT TRADE FRANK! YOU DO NOT TRADE YOUR FRANCHISE PLAYER!

You mean Mags right?

SEALgep
02-19-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
You mean Mags right? I hope so, because if we had to decide between Maggs and Thomas, it's pretty much a no brainer.