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34 Inch Stick
02-18-2004, 08:44 AM
I was listening to Murph and Fred this morning and in between Maddux talk Fred reports that Frank has stated he wants a trade to the Dodgers. First, if he is traded it better be for more than Odalis Perez. Second, if neither Frank nor Maggs are on this team next year, I am going to have some serious problems with this team.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I was listening to Murph and Fred this morning and in between Maddux talk Fred reports that Frank has stated he wants a trade to the Dodgers. First, if he is traded it better be for more than Odalis Perez. Second, if neither Frank nor Maggs are on this team next year, I am going to have some serious problems with this team.

Wouldn't surprise me, but isn't this something that the White Sox would like to keep quiet? As far as I know, Thomas has kept in contact with Reinsdorf over the winter, so he very well could have demanded a trade quite some time ago, with the Sox just waiting for the Dodgers to complete the sale and get a GM in place.

However, unlike the fact that Thomas hasn't been returning phone calls to KW or OG this off season, this would be something the Sox organization would want to keep away from the media, since if it is known that Thomas wants to be traded to the Dodgers, that would automatically reduce his trade value. Someone from Thomas' camp must have leaked this.

poorme
02-18-2004, 08:56 AM
It's about time he figured out he wasn't wanted here.

Kittle
02-18-2004, 08:57 AM
A guy with one season with a W-L record over .500 and a career 4.2 ERA in the NL doesn't exactly excite me. Are we really THAT desperate for pitching?

Brian26
02-18-2004, 09:01 AM
Really helps our bargaining power now that it's been reported that Frank WANTS to be traded to the Dodgers. Great.

I assume he likes the short flight from LA to Vegas?

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 09:09 AM
If we don't fair value for him, I keep him and risk the consequences. He isn't going hit poorly because he's mad, unless he's distracted or something, because he has personal goals to accomplish. If anything, he would be a bad club house presence, but I believe it would be limited to an isolated few- most notably Guillen and Valentin. But I'm willing to risk it in order to get fair value. If it becomes a major problem and becomes clear we have to trade him, his value will certainly drop, but I would rather wait for that to be the case than to just trade him for under value right now. Besides there is the chance that they let bygones be bygones after meeting face to face. I wouldn't give up that easily. However, if we did get something considered fair value, then maybe it would be better to pull the trigger in order to retain clubhouse discipline, and pitching.

Huisj
02-18-2004, 09:15 AM
i'm almost to the point of saying the blame guillen for this. he spouted off about team chemistry and problems in the clubhouse all winter long without ever speaking with Thomas. Should've kept his mouth shut and discussed things with Thomas once camp opened up instead of talking about frank to the press so much.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
i'm almost to the point of saying the blame guillen for this. he spouted off about team chemistry and problems in the clubhouse all winter long without ever speaking with Thomas. Should've kept his mouth shut and discussed things with Thomas once camp opened up instead of talking about frank to the press so much. I'm not so sure he wouldn't have this attitude regardless. Besides, this isn't the first incident witrh Frank, not that all are his fault, but it doesn't matter. The fact is that sometimes he is just a bad club house guy. I like him and would hope he wants to stay, but I'm not prepared to say this is Guillen's doing. Frank probably came to this decision based on the hiring, not necessarily the comment. We'll have to see, I'm not 100% confident that he is going to get dealt.

34 Inch Stick
02-18-2004, 09:25 AM
Guillen is just the tool of KW. It would be like blaming the knife for a murder.

StepsInSC
02-18-2004, 09:35 AM
If Frank leaves. I will cry.

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Please don't go Frankie.

Irishsox1
02-18-2004, 09:36 AM
Frank wants out...fine! Trade him to Boston for Pedro and Nomar. To sweeten the deal for the Red Sox, I'll even throw in Joey Cora! If this deal falls through, I'll just blame the Evil Empire.

Just kidding, I'm so tired of Frank talk its not even funny. The whole A-Rod trade has really made me sick of MLB and sick of the White Sox. For the first time since 1995, I have no interest in the upcoming season.

jabrch
02-18-2004, 09:37 AM
just shut up.


If you want a trade - begging for one in public is the WORST way to get it. You think KW can get enough value from you when you whine like a little girl? geez

He just doesn't get it does he.

inta
02-18-2004, 09:38 AM
god it just keeps getting better...

so we'll lose frank, maggs is gone after this season. but hey, borchard is "the franchise"... at least until he wants market value.

this team just sucks.

all the while cubs fans dance on our graves....

KingXerxes
02-18-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
However, unlike the fact that Thomas hasn't been returning phone calls to KW or OG this off season, this would be something the Sox organization would want to keep away from the media, since if it is known that Thomas wants to be traded to the Dodgers, that would automatically reduce his trade value. Someone from Thomas' camp must have leaked this.

I respectfully dissagree with the above statement. Knowing this organization the way I think I do, it would be right up their alley that Thomas has been demanding a trade for the past 3 months, and they're going to protray him as an insolent jerk in order to justify trading him. Just like telling the media that he's not returning phone calls - they are going to try and paint themselves as the good guys.

cheeses_h_rice
02-18-2004, 09:40 AM
All I need to hear now is that Maggs ruptured his Achilles Heel and Burly's feeling soreness in his rotator cuff area, and this season will be complete!

StepsInSC
02-18-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
just shut up.


If you want a trade - begging for one in public is the WORST way to get it. You think KW can get enough value from you when you whine like a little girl? geez

He just doesn't get it does he.


I'm just trying to clarify something, but has this been verified that he's said this in public, a.k.a. justifying the comment "begging for one in public is the worst way to get it."

I honestly don't know, not living anywhere near Chicaco.

Dadawg_77
02-18-2004, 09:42 AM
Can we trade Ozzie and Kenny instead?

skottyj242
02-18-2004, 09:45 AM
If Frank leaves I'm pretty sure I'm done too. Unless they keep Billy Koch.

Kilroy
02-18-2004, 09:48 AM
This story reportedly came from the LA press somewhere. I have tried to find anything I could link on it, but I couldn't find a single thing that backs up what the Score and ESPN have been reporting today about Frank.

So is it true or not? I'm not sold yet. Frank has said nothing all off season long, and now the first thing we hear from him is I wanna play for the Dodgers? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I won't believe it until until its backed up by something a bit more reliable than the Score...

duke of dorwood
02-18-2004, 09:59 AM
They have intentionally made Frank look bad-to cover for the moronic statements made by the manager in November. Williams is just as much responsible for this as Guillen-

mdep524
02-18-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
i'm almost to the point of saying the blame guillen for this. he spouted off about team chemistry and problems in the clubhouse all winter long without ever speaking with Thomas. Should've kept his mouth shut and discussed things with Thomas once camp opened up instead of talking about frank to the press so much.

Oh God, here we go again...

<Sigh> We really need some new topics to talk about on here. So, what does everyone think of Aaron Rowand's defense in CF? I hear this guy Ross Gload is going to be the real deal at 1B.

kittle42
02-18-2004, 10:31 AM
How long til college football season starts?

Lip Man 1
02-18-2004, 10:35 AM
Inta says: "All the while Cubs fans dance on our graves...."

All you have to do is point the blame in one direction, directly to the owner.

But take heart "Chicago has always been a Cubs town.. ."--Jerry Reinsdorf on ESPN Radio 1000 June 2002.

Lip

CubKilla
02-18-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by skottyj242
If Frank leaves I'm pretty sure I'm done too. Unless they keep Billy Koch.

Is that a joke? I'd be more inclined to say "I'm done" if they keep that waste of BP space Botch.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
just shut up.


If you want a trade - begging for one in public is the WORST way to get it. You think KW can get enough value from you when you whine like a little girl? geez

He just doesn't get it does he.

What the hell are you talking about? Where is there a direct quote from Thomas saying this? More than likely this was leaked by someone in Thomas' camp, not Thomas directly, as he hasn't said anything to the media this off season. He has however been talking to JR behind the scenes.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I respectfully dissagree with the above statement. Knowing this organization the way I think I do, it would be right up their alley that Thomas has been demanding a trade for the past 3 months, and they're going to protray him as an insolent jerk in order to justify trading him. Just like telling the media that he's not returning phone calls - they are going to try and paint themselves as the good guys.

Right, but they don't want this to get out into the public because then that reduces their bargaining power with the Dodgers.

McCourt has already mentioned that he's targeting Thomas, and the Dodgers scored fewer runs than the Kittens last year, so they have to do something. Thus, the ball is in the White Sox's court right not.

They don't give a damn about Thomas' perception, all they care about is what they can get in return, which is why they'd want to keep this private. If it gets out in public, then the ball is suddenly in LA's court, and they have the upper hand in negotations, if it is made known that Thomas wants to play in LA next season.

This kind of reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons, where Mr. Burns gets down on his hands and knees, and begs the German owners to sell his power plant back to him, and then the German owners reply "That's great, you're anxious to buy, and we're anxious to sell". Then Mr. Burns gets up, gets an evil smirk on his face, and says "Advantage, Burns".

Those close to this organization know that Thomas wants to play 140 games next year, and he would not want to be in a Sox uniform in 2004 if KW was still GM. Now that this is out in public, the Sox will get Odalis, and that's it.

But thankfully we have the GIDP king to lead us to the promise land. Thank you KW for signing that idiot to that ridiculous contract, and for driving the best hitter who will ever come up through this organization out of town.

You can count the number of RH hitters who have ever played the game who are better hitters than Thomas on one hand, and still have a couple of fingers left over. But KW's wet dream of a 1B/DH combo. is Paul Konerko and Nick Johnson. BRILLIANT!

voodoochile
02-18-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
All I need to hear now is that Maggs ruptured his Achilles Heel and Burly's feeling soreness in his rotator cuff area, and this season will be complete!

Oh man, your negative vibes are bumming me out...

Iwritecode
02-18-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Is that a joke? I'd be more inclined to say "I'm done" if they keep that waste of BP space Botch.

I'm hoping he just forgot the teal...

akingamongstmen
02-18-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
All I need to hear now is that Maggs ruptured his Achilles Heel and Burly's feeling soreness in his rotator cuff area, and this season will be complete!

Cheeses...don't even joke about that stuff. Seriously.

jeremyb1
02-18-2004, 12:37 PM
I'm sorry but I couldn't care less if Frank wants to be traded. If he's unhappy with the organization he shouldn't have signed a long term deal last offseasn when he had the opportunity to sign elsewhere. We're under no obligation to trade him unless we feel it improves the ball club. I see no reason to think twice about his request.

soxtalker
02-18-2004, 12:38 PM
If it is true, there are a few advantages for the different parties involved.

For Thomas, this could give the WS and Dodgers a push to get a deal done.

For the WS, I understand that it might not help their position in the negotiations, though I'm not sure how much. It may make things much easier for the Sox with their fans. As is evident from this board, there are a lot of people who will be incensed if Frank is traded. If people know that he demanded the trade, that makes it a bit easier to take for some.

For the Dodgers fans (maybe the team, though I doubt it) who are in favor of such a trade, it may give a bit of a push.

SoxxoS
02-18-2004, 12:52 PM
I have had it with Frank Thomas.

My roomate gets golf lessons from the Butch Harmon school in Las Vegas. The course that Frank lives on. The guy that teaches my roommate said that Frank Thomas isn't fond AT ALL of the White Sox, and is getting fed up with how things are run. He does want out.

Hey Frank, if you don't like it, get out. Demand a trade. It won't bother me. You have a lot of supporters, but I am not on that bandwagon anymore. Frankly, I think you are a mental midget (Like how you are 0-fer in the playoffs, and hit so much better as a 1Baseman) and would really benefit from a change of scenery. I am sick of your whining about contracts and playing 1B and not returning phone calls and excuses...I am sick of it. Get out.

If you do leave, just make sure to tell KW we need ot get Miller or Jackson from the Dodgers, please. Odalis Perez alone isn't going to do it for me.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'm sorry but I couldn't care less if Frank wants to be traded. If he's unhappy with the organization he shouldn't have signed a long term deal last offseasn when he had the opportunity to sign elsewhere. We're under no obligation to trade him unless we feel it improves the ball club. I see no reason to think twice about his request.

The thing is, KW wants this to happen, and now that Frank wants it to happen, things are starting to fall into place.

Frank excercised his option for 6 million dollars in order to have some type of structure of a contract before he demanded a trade. He knew that he could now get a similar type of contract if he left via FA. By excercising his option, he set up a contract that would allow him to be traded and still receive around 24 million. It also could have worked out in the Sox favor, as they get something out of the trade in return, as opposed to just draft picks.

If a player wants out, the GM wants him gone, and another team wants that player, that tends to send up a very strong possibility that Thomas will be wearing Dodger blue next season.

Dadawg_77
02-18-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
I have had it with Frank Thomas.

My roomate gets golf lessons from the Butch Harmon school in Las Vegas. The course that Frank lives on. The guy that teaches my roommate said that Frank Thomas isn't fond AT ALL of the White Sox, and is getting fed up with how things are run. He does want out.

Hey Frank, if you don't like it, get out. Demand a trade. It won't bother me. You have a lot of supporters, but I am not on that bandwagon anymore. Frankly, I think you are a mental midget (Like how you are 0-fer in the playoffs, and hit so much better as a 1Baseman) and would really benefit from a change of scenery. I am sick of your whining about contracts and playing 1B and not returning phone calls and excuses...I am sick of it. Get out.

If you do leave, just make sure to tell KW we need ot get Miller or Jackson from the Dodgers, please. Odalis Perez alone isn't going to do it for me.

0-fer in the playoffs? See 93.

I think a lot of people including myself are getting fed up with Kenny, your mental midget.

Frank if you get traded, please take Kenny with you. It would a great gift to the Sox fans who have supported you.

SoxxoS
02-18-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
0-fer in the playoffs? See 93.

I think a lot of people including myself are getting fed up with Kenny, your mental midget.

Frank if you get traded, please take Kenny with you. It would a great gift to the Sox fans who have supported you.

93 was when he was a 3rd year player who obviously was a completely different player. Crap hit the fan in 96.

I don't want anyone on the Sox if they don't want to be there (here).

cheeses_h_rice
02-18-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh man, your negative vibes are bumming me out...

My positivity ran out a few weeks ago.

'Til Sox ownership or the 25 men on the field prove they're worth my $$$ this year, I refuse to buy tickets to more than a token few games next month.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS

My roomate gets golf lessons from the Butch Harmon school in Las Vegas. The course that Frank lives on. The guy that teaches my roommate said that Frank Thomas isn't fond AT ALL of the White Sox, and is getting fed up with how things are run. He does want out.

And that makes him different than a large portion of the fan base, how? He has shown loyalty to this organization in the past, but has been slapped in the face by the fan base, the media, and management many times. It is in the best interests of both sides to part now. Thomas can play 1b full time in LA, and go to a city where the media isn't out to attack him and a fan base that isn't complacent towards anything less than a 1.000 OPS season.


If you do leave, just make sure to tell KW we need ot get Miller or Jackson from the Dodgers, please. Odalis Perez alone isn't going to do it for me.

Ha. Why would he, or should he care?

SoxxoS
02-18-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
And that makes him different than a large portion of the fan base, how? He has shown loyalty to this organization in the past, but has been slapped in the face by the fan base, the media, and management many times. It is in the best interests of both sides to part now. Thomas can play 1b full time in LA, and go to a city where the media isn't out to attack him and a fan base that isn't complacent towards anything less than a 1.000 OPS season.




Ha. Why would he, or should he care?

I was just kidding about the Miller/Jackson thing.

I don't know how things are run behind closed doors with the White Sox.

What I DO know is that the difference between Frank Thomas and the fans is that Frank Thomas WORKS for them. He signed a binding contract to play for them. The fans have the option to go or not to go to the games. Thomas must show up and do his job. Although we don't like it, Reinsy can run the team however he wants.

TaylorStSox
02-18-2004, 01:13 PM
If Frank wants out, then let him go. My love for the Sox goes much deeper than one player.

Frank is probably the best right handed hitter of his generation. With that being said, there's no denying that there is a negative aura around him. Though, it may not be his fault, it's crippled this team for a few years.

maurice
02-18-2004, 01:18 PM
If the report is true, I understand Frank's position completely. Trading Frank in a salary dump without getting a ton of value in return would cap off the worst offseason in modern Sox history and cause the cubs to draw TWICE as many fans as the Sox in 2004.

Iwritecode
02-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
What I DO know is that the difference between Frank Thomas and the fans is that Frank Thomas WORKS for them. He signed a binding contract to play for them. The fans have the option to go or not to go to the games. Thomas must show up and do his job. Although we don't like it, Reinsy can run the team however he wants.

When did Frank sign his original contract? The one with the DSC in it? Wasn't back in the mid-90's? Back when everyone thought JR might actually make a commitment to winning? Fresh off the 93 and 94 season, I'm sure people were more optimistic...

Honestly, if you were a player right now, would you want to play for the Sox? Or would you rather sign with a team that can contend annually?

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
When did Frank sign his original contract? The one with the DSC in it? Wasn't back in the mid-90's? Back when everyone thought JR might actually make a commitment to winning? Fresh off the 93 and 94 season, I'm sure people were more optimistic...


He signed it after the 1997 season. A year after the Sox brought in Belle at 55 million dollars/ 5 years. Frank signed a contract with a DSC, and one that guaranteed him less money per annum than Belle, who had a far inferior year to FT. The contract was rought a 7 year extension that totaled 66.67 million, that would go into effect after the 2000 season. That showed loyalty to this franchise, not that anyone cared.

If he wants out now, I don't blame him one bit.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
When did Frank sign his original contract? The one with the DSC in it? Wasn't back in the mid-90's? Back when everyone thought JR might actually make a commitment to winning? Fresh off the 93 and 94 season, I'm sure people were more optimistic...

Honestly, if you were a player right now, would you want to play for the Sox? Or would you rather sign with a team that can contend annually? I would most definitely want to play for the Sox.

Randar68
02-18-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
He signed it after the 1997 season. A year after the Sox brought in Belle at 55 million dollars/ 5 years. Frank signed a contract with a DSC, and one that guaranteed him less money per annum than Belle, who had a far inferior year to FT. The contract was rought a 7 year extension that totaled 66.67 million, that would go into effect after the 2000 season. That showed loyalty to this franchise, not that anyone cared.

If he wants out now, I don't blame him one bit.


DING DING DING...

What a selfish crybaby jerk

And you wonder why Sox fans hate the media and their anti-Sox/Thomas agenda. Because they've repeated it so often that many Sox fans now believe it as being true...

Iwritecode
02-18-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I would most definitely want to play for the Sox.

I'm sure Frank did too. The only problem is that in all the years he's been here they haven't been able to build a team around him good enough to get him the ring he deserves.

I'm sure he'd like to know what it's like at least once before he retires...

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I'm sure Frank did too. The only problem is that in all the years he's been here they haven't been able to build a team around him good enough to get him the ring he deserves.

I'm sure he'd like to know what it's like at least once before he retires... That's fine, but he won't find that ring with the Dodgers. If he was trying to get traded to Boston or something, I could understand your point a little better.

Iwritecode
02-18-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's fine, but he won't find that ring with the Dodgers. If he was trying to get traded to Boston or something, I could understand your point a little better.

They might have made it last year if they had any offense at all.

Thomas can provide that.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
They might have made it last year if they had any offense at all.

Thomas can provide that. He would only be a stepping stone for what they need to bring in there offensively. It's not like they lost by a couple games, and their pitching, although is still very good, is weaker than last year.

Randar68
02-18-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He would only be a stepping stone for what they need to bring in there offensively. It's not like they lost by a couple games, and their pitching, although is still very good, is weaker than last year.

And they have 2 prospects in the top 10 in all of baseball who are pitchers and will be with the Dodgers this year or likely next...

They need offense, and they don't have it in their system. It makes sense for them, but it ony makes sense for the Sox if they can get one of those 2 prospects in addition to Perez.

boog_alou
02-18-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And they have 2 prospects in the top 10 in all of baseball who are pitchers and will be with the Dodgers this year or likely next...

They need offense, and they don't have it in their system. It makes sense for them, but it ony makes sense for the Sox if they can get one of those 2 prospects in addition to Perez.
The Dodgers need more offense in order to compete, but it doesn't make sense for them to mortgage their future to get Thomas who is past his prime and has a big contract. His salary goes up to $8 million if he's traded. Then he can exercise options the next two years for $8 million and $10 million. That's a lot of guaranteed money from an NL team for an aging former star who has difficulty playing the field.

If I were DePodesta, I wouldn't give up either of those two top prospects for Thomas. I'd be willing to give up Perez and one or two other prospects. This is not the Dodger's year, so they shoudn't give up top prospects to bet everything on success this year.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And they have 2 prospects in the top 10 in all of baseball who are pitchers and will be with the Dodgers this year or likely next...

They need offense, and they don't have it in their system. It makes sense for them, but it ony makes sense for the Sox if they can get one of those 2 prospects in addition to Perez. I agree.

SEALgep
02-18-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
The Dodgers need more offense in order to compete, but it doesn't make sense for them to mortgage their future to get Thomas who is past his prime and has a big contract. His salary goes up to $8 million if he's traded. Then he can exercise options the next two years for $8 million and $10 million. That's a lot of guaranteed money from an NL team for an aging former star who has difficulty playing the field.

If I were DePodesta, I wouldn't give up either of those two top prospects for Thomas. I'd be willing to give up Perez and one or two other prospects. This is not the Dodger's year, so they shoudn't give up top prospects to bet everything on success this year. Okay, so they don't do it. Then they won't have anyone this year making it a complete wash. That's their choice, but even if Thomas wants to leave, we are not under a scenerio where we have to. He has to honor his contract, and if he doesn't play well, he knows he risking his HOF campaign. From the Sox perspective, they have to buy him from us, not us selling him for whatever we can get. They don't have to anything, and we certainly don't either.

Iwritecode
02-18-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Okay, so they don't do it. Then they won't have anyone this year making it a complete wash. That's their choice, but even if Thomas wants to leave, we are not under a scenerio where we have to. He has to honor his contract, and if he doesn't play well, he knows he risking his HOF campaign. From the Sox perspective, they have to buy him from us, not us selling him for whatever we can get. They don't have to anything, and we certainly don't either.

I agree and that is one thing to remember.

My only point is that it's no secret that there's no love loss between Frank and KW and with the way this organization has been going the past 10 years, I can't really blame him for wanting to get out...

jabrch
02-18-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I agree and that is one thing to remember.

My only point is that it's no secret that there's no love loss between Frank and KW and with the way this organization has been going the past 10 years, I can't really blame him for wanting to get out...

But if he wanted to get out - all he had to do was not excercise his option. The Sox were not going to excercise their half of it and pay him 10mm or so.

Frank chose to stay here. Not vice-versa.

LATruBlue
02-18-2004, 05:19 PM
I was just perusing through the thread when I saw that there was some discussion about the Sox possibly trading Frank to the Dodgers and demanding no less than one of the prospective arms (i.e., Miller or Jackson) to be included along with package.

Admittedly, I'm very skeptical of P DePodesta. I'm not sure as to what he really places value on, the farm system as an example. Will he continue the good work started by DE or will it be his playground to consummate deals.
_____________________________________________
Here is an excerpt from a Q & A with DePodesta regarding the farm system and particulary (Miller and Jackson) The answer is someone's shorthanded transcribed notes except for the quoted statement.

Q: What is your general acquisition policy, do you prefer minor league development, trade, or free agency? Do you have any plans to trade for any Big 3 Minor Leaguers (Miller, Jackson, Gutierez(sic))?

A: Most good teams are a blend of the three. Open to all three. Won't comment on the three [minor] leaguers. "Those usually aren't the guys you look to trade""
________________________________________________
It makes me feel better that he seems to understand their worth. Also, McCourt said that he would only trade them for a superstar that signed a long term contract.

batmanZoSo
02-18-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
Frank wants out...fine! Trade him to Boston for Pedro and Nomar. To sweeten the deal for the Red Sox, I'll even throw in Joey Cora! If this deal falls through, I'll just blame the Evil Empire.

Just kidding, I'm so tired of Frank talk its not even funny. The whole A-Rod trade has really made me sick of MLB and sick of the White Sox. For the first time since 1995, I have no interest in the upcoming season.


Who says any of this is even true? Because Fred Huebner said so? Please. Frank has been in a cave all winter. The only people that would know are management and you know they're not gonna blab to the papers that Frank wants out really bad.

cornball
02-18-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by batmanZoSo
Who says any of this is even true? Because Fred Huebner said so? Please. Frank has been in a cave all winter. The only people that would know are management and you know they're not gonna blab to the papers that Frank wants out really bad.

Very true. I am sure it wasn't on a phone interview....Frank doesn't answer the phone or return calls.

Deadguy
02-18-2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Very true. I am sure it wasn't on a phone interview....Frank doesn't answer the phone or return calls.

I seriously doubt that USA Today/Baseball Weekly got a direct quote from Thomas. Remember what ridiculous lengths Teddy Greenstein went to to track down Thomas in Vegas, or how Scott Merkin couldn't get anything out of Thomas when he tried to track him down?

Why would he shrug them off, and then give the dirt to Baseball Weekly? Either this story was leaked by someone close to Thomas, someone in the White Sox organization, or someone associated with the Dodgers.

RichFitztightly
02-18-2004, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I seriously doubt that USA Today/Baseball Weekly got a direct quote from Thomas. Remember what ridiculous lengths Teddy Greenstein went to to track down Thomas in Vegas, or how Scott Merkin couldn't get anything out of Thomas when he tried to track him down?

Why would he shrug them off, and then give the dirt to Baseball Weekly? Either this story was leaked by someone close to Thomas, someone in the White Sox organization, or someone associated with the Dodgers.

My vote is somebody within the Dodgers.

RKMeibalane
02-18-2004, 08:29 PM
I'm siding with Frank on this one. Big surprise! The Chicago White Sox organization is one of the worst-run sports franchises on the entire planet. Their owner blames the fans when things don't go his way. Their general mangaer is a complete idiot. And their new manager just can't seem to keep his damn mouth shut. Now, they are running the risk of trading the best player in the history of the franchise out of town, and why? Because he doesn't like the general manager.

Give me a ****ing break! Kenny Williams has done NOTHING this off-season to improve the quality of this ballclub. I defended him earlier this year when others were complaining, but I'm done sticking up for a man who is completely unqualified for his job. The guy has made exactly three trades that have helped the Sox. How many bad trades and signings his he made? Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, and Paul Konerko. Those three moves alone would get most GM's fired. Why hasn't KW been sent packing? Because Reinsdorf doesn't give a ****!

If Frank isn't in the lineup on Opening Day, I am done with this team until Reinsdorf sells. Period. I refuse to support an organization that doesn't care about things such as loyaly and committment, both to their players, and most importantly, to their fans.

You heard it here ladies and gentlemen. The Chicago White Sox are a joke. It's too bad they don't want to do anything about it.

Jerry Reinsdorf, get the HELL OUT!

gosox41
02-19-2004, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I was listening to Murph and Fred this morning and in between Maddux talk Fred reports that Frank has stated he wants a trade to the Dodgers. First, if he is traded it better be for more than Odalis Perez. Second, if neither Frank nor Maggs are on this team next year, I am going to have some serious problems with this team.

Murph probably told Fred to say it because it makes the Sox look bad. Being the 300LB puppet that Fred is, he happily obliged.

Bob

steff
02-19-2004, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The fact is that sometimes he is just a bad club house guy.


Why do you say this? Have you ever been in the clubhouse with Frank? Have you talked to people who have? I have never, ever heard a bad thing about Frank (from the mouth of someone he DIRECTLY works with - the media and their "unnamed sources" don't count) besides Paul's hissy fit - which he quickly ran from when called out. I've always heard completely the opposite.

Lip Man 1
02-19-2004, 11:43 AM
Steff:

Rich King seemed to me to be a pretty reasonable guy and there's no question that he's a Sox fan. But in his interview he came out and said Frank is the problem with the chemistry in the clubhouse.

Dismiss it if you wish but I've heard a number of reasonable media folks say the same thing.

Lip

BeerHandle
02-19-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I was listening to Murph and Fred this morning and in between Maddux talk Fred reports that Frank has stated he wants a trade to the Dodgers. First, if he is traded it better be for more than Odalis Perez. Second, if neither Frank nor Maggs are on this team next year, I am going to have some serious problems with this team.

I heard this as well. However it was 10 second blurp and I didn't hear anything the rest of the day on either sports radio statsions and I was in my car for 6 hours.

minastirith67
02-19-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Steff:

Rich King seemed to me to be a pretty reasonable guy and there's no question that he's a Sox fan. But in his interview he came out and said Frank is the problem with the chemistry in the clubhouse.

Dismiss it if you wish but I've heard a number of reasonable media folks say the same thing.

Lip

Lip,
Steff is right in that Frank does not somehow mess up ball club chemistry. He's been very nice every time I've talked to him and his teammates seem to get along fine with him. Don't buy the media bull**** that gives us this awful impression of Frank.

JC456
02-19-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
DING DING DING...

What a selfish crybaby jerk

And you wonder why Sox fans hate the media and their anti-Sox/Thomas agenda. Because they've repeated it so often that many Sox fans now believe it as being true...

Do you think the Atlanta Fans are crying because the Cubs got Maddux? 11 games to reach 300 and the Braves make no effort to bring Maddux back. It ain't just the Sox brass. It is baseball business.

SEALgep
02-19-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by minastirith67
Lip,
Steff is right in that Frank does not somehow mess up ball club chemistry. He's been very nice every time I've talked to him and his teammates seem to get along fine with him. Don't buy the media bull**** that gives us this awful impression of Frank. That's what Valentin, Konerko, and Koch all say too, right? To say we are just making this up, and it is a figment of our imagination is just as naive as you are making us out to be. Thomas is a hell of a player, and if we keep him, all the better. However, to say he is all warm and cuddly with everyone is ridiculous. He has had numerous run ins with both players and coaches, and to say all those people bring it out of him, and they are to blame, maybe be partially true, but Frank definitely shares a big portion of the blame. If Frank says, you know we've had our problems but I just want to win and do whatever it takes, then everyone can get on board together. Instead we are seeing more of the same, and people are making excuses for it.

steff
02-19-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's what Valentin, Konerko, and Koch all say too, right? To say we are just making this up, and it is a figment of our imagination is just as naive as you are making us out to be. Thomas is a hell of a player, and if we keep him, all the better. However, to say he is all warm and cuddly with everyone is ridiculous. He has had numerous run ins with both players and coaches, and to say all those people bring it out of him, and they are to blame, maybe be partially true, but Frank definitely shares a big portion of the blame. If Frank says, you know we've had our problems but I just want to win and do whatever it takes, then everyone can get on board together. Instead we are seeing more of the same, and people are making excuses for it.


So if Frank maybe spoke up to them - ya know he is supposed to be the "leader" as proclaimed by everyone in this town.. and they don't like it and whine.. that's Frank's fault?
And ya know what.. why don't you talk to media that is actually allowed in the clubhouse. Ask M,J,& H. Ask Wills. Ask Levine. Those who see with their own eyes how Frank gets along with the others.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of it is BS.

steff
02-19-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Steff:

Rich King seemed to me to be a pretty reasonable guy and there's no question that he's a Sox fan. But in his interview he came out and said Frank is the problem with the chemistry in the clubhouse.

Dismiss it if you wish but I've heard a number of reasonable media folks say the same thing.

Lip

Lip I have no doubt that they all have their moments. A constant, reoccuring, issue... from what I've seen since '97.. no way. Not even when Royce was here - and the nasty little thing he did - did Frank blow his stack (which IMO, he should have) and let it effect things on the job. Since I've see it.. and those who spend more time in the clubhouse than just to stick a microphone in someone's face and get a quote have also said Frank is not an issue.. I'm going with that.

SEALgep
02-19-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by steff
So if Frank maybe spoke up to them - ya know he is supposed to be the "leader" as proclaimed by everyone in this town.. and they don't like it and whine.. that's Frank's fault?
And ya know what.. why don't you talk to media that is actually allowed in the clubhouse. Ask M,J,& H. Ask Wills. Ask Levine. Those who see with their own eyes how Frank gets along with the others.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of it is BS. He doesn't have to speak up to them, in fact I would advise against it. He needs to speak to them with respect, and in turn he will get respect as well. This is a team, and being the leader, he needs to go above and beyond to set an example on how to be a team player. I don't know how you could disagree with that. I don't want Frank to leave, but we need him to compromise a little more.

poorme
02-19-2004, 05:37 PM
"Chemistry" is baloney. The stats will tell you why we were mediocre.

SEALgep
02-19-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by poorme
"Chemistry" is baloney. The stats will tell you why we were mediocre. It all plays into it.

steff
02-20-2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He doesn't have to speak up to them, in fact I would advise against it. He needs to speak to them with respect, and in turn he will get respect as well. This is a team, and being the leader, he needs to go above and beyond to set an example on how to be a team player. I don't know how you could disagree with that. I don't want Frank to leave, but we need him to compromise a little more.


And once again.. how do you know how he is speaking to them? How do you know what's going on in that clubhouse except from the reports from media who is NOT in the clubhouse on a regualr basis?
How do you know he is not compromising?

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by steff
And once again.. how do you know how he is speaking to them? How do you know what's going on in that clubhouse except from the reports from media who is NOT in the clubhouse on a regualr basis?
How do you know he is not compromising? Steff, No one knows. You certainly don't know. If he is, than great, I have no complaint. I hope he is. I'm going with the information I have, and I'm just saying that is the opinion I've formed. If things are working out with the club, great. I don't think anyone here thinks I don't hope for the best for the Sox, maybe even blindly according to some. However, you're argument doesn't hold any water. The question isn't do you have any evidence that supports he is not talking to these guys, while compromising. The question is what information do you have that proves that's not the case. You know, sometimes I think you just follow my posts around just waiting for something, anything to argue. That's fine, I have thick skin, but come up with something that proves your argument. It just seems silly to say my opinion is wrong, knowing the definition of opinion, without any facts that prove otherwise.

sas1974
02-20-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by poorme
"Chemistry" is baloney. The stats will tell you why we were mediocre.

Good chemistry will only add so much. Winning cures A LOT of ills.

Dadawg_77
02-20-2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Steff, No one knows. You certainly don't know. If he is, than great, I have no complaint. I hope he is. I'm going with the information I have, and I'm just saying that is the opinion I've formed. If things are working out with the club, great. I don't think anyone here thinks I don't hope for the best for the Sox, maybe even blindly according to some. However, you're argument doesn't hold any water. The question isn't do you have any evidence that supports he is not talking to these guys, while compromising. The question is what information do you have that proves that's not the case. You know, sometimes I think you just follow my posts around just waiting for something, anything to argue. That's fine, I have thick skin, but come up with something that proves your argument. It just seems silly to say my opinion is wrong, knowing the definition of opinion, without any facts that prove otherwise.

Let me get this straight. If you make a statement was are to presume it is correct even if you have no evidence to show it to be correct. Anyone who refutes you must show evidence to prove you are wrong or since we are assuming you are right, they are incorrect.

Secondly, unless you know Steff how can you make a statement, "You certainly don't know." For all you know she could be friends with several players, maybe even married or dating one.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Let me get this straight. If you make a statement was are to presume it is correct even if you have no evidence to show it to be correct. Anyone who refutes you must show evidence to prove you are wrong or since we are assuming you are right, they are incorrect.

Secondly, unless you know Steff how can you make a statement, "You certainly don't know." For all you know she could be friends with several players, maybe even married or dating one. No, I'm saying don't refute my opinion with questions. If I say Frank needs to compromise, and the main argument is that you don't know he isn't compromising. Well that's why it's called an opinion. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, but to say I don't know, and that's your argument- it's wasted breath. I never claimed to know, I said that's what I believe. As far as Steff, I don't know her, but I know she doesn't know either, or that would have been her argument. Besides, looking at her picture, it appears she is happiliy married (to a non-Sox player) with children. Despite our differences Steff, congratulations, I wish happy and successful lives to all the posters as well.

Dadawg_77
02-20-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by steff



Why do you say this? Have you ever been in the clubhouse with Frank? Have you talked to people who have? I have never, ever heard a bad thing about Frank (from the mouth of someone he DIRECTLY works with - the media and their "unnamed sources" don't count) besides Paul's hissy fit - which he quickly ran from when called out. I've always heard completely the opposite.


Originally posted by steff



So if Frank maybe spoke up to them - ya know he is supposed to be the "leader" as proclaimed by everyone in this town.. and they don't like it and whine.. that's Frank's fault?
And ya know what.. why don't you talk to media that is actually allowed in the clubhouse. Ask M,J,& H. Ask Wills. Ask Levine. Those who see with their own eyes how Frank gets along with the others.
Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of it is BS.


Originally posted by steff


Lip I have no doubt that they all have their moments. A constant, reoccuring, issue... from what I've seen since '97.. no way. Not even when Royce was here - and the nasty little thing he did - did Frank blow his stack (which IMO, he should have) and let it effect things on the job. Since I've see it.. and those who spend more time in the clubhouse than just to stick a microphone in someone's face and get a quote have also said Frank is not an issue.. I'm going with that.


Originally posted by steff



And once again.. how do you know how he is speaking to them? How do you know what's going on in that clubhouse except from the reports from media who is NOT in the clubhouse on a regualr basis?
How do you know he is not compromising?


Hmmm.... It does seem to me that Steff says she has heard from people/a person inside the Clubhouse that Frank is a good guy to his teammates.

Steff doesn't blantley lay out like, "Herm was telling me the other night that Frank is a good guy". But she does say from the mouth of someone who directly works with Frank.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Hmmm.... It does seem to me that Steff says she has heard from people/a person inside the Clubhouse that Frank is a good guy to his teammates. Lol, well if that convinces you, that's super, but it doesn't change my view.

Dadawg_77
02-20-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol, well if that convinces you, that's super, but it doesn't change my view.

As far as Steff, I don't know her, but I know she doesn't know either, or that would have been her argument

I am not saying those statements convince me or not. But you made the statement that you know she doesn't know because she never argued that Frank is good guy from inside info. The post with to counter that statement with the facts of what was posted.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I am not saying those statements convince me or not. But you made the statement that you know she doesn't know because she never argued that Frank is good guy from inside info. The post with to counter that statement with the facts of what was posted. What? The facts? She said she never heard it from a player that DIRECTLY works with him. You don't even question the context. She could have heard it at Sox Fest or something, from a player, that everything is great. I'm sure she gets along with the players, but I doubt she's having barbeques with these guys getting the inside scoop on everything. This isn't a slash at Steff, you have been defending something that you know nothing about. Now do I think Frank is a club house menace, no. I said he has had run ins with some guys from time to time, which even Steff admits is probably the case. I said he needs to compromise more, meaning limiting these confrontations and having fun with everyone. There are guys he always gets along with, Rowand and him are good friends. However, there are 25 guys on the roster, and also all the coaches. I just believe a better effort is needed, and you get that same sense from some of the players in the club house from their interviews at the Fest. Like I said it's my opinion.

Dadawg_77
02-20-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
What? The facts? She said she never heard it from a player that DIRECTLY works with him. You don't even question the context. She could have heard it at Sox Fest or something, from a player, that everything is great. I'm sure she gets along with the players, but I doubt she's having barbeques with these guys getting the inside scoop on everything. This isn't a slash at Steff, you have been defending something that you know nothing about. Now do I think Frank is a club house menace, no. I said he has had run ins with some guys from time to time, which even Steff admits is probably the case. I said he needs to compromise more, meaning limiting these confrontations and having fun with everyone. There are guys he always gets along with, Rowand and him are good friends. However, there are 25 guys on the roster, and also all the coaches. I just believe a better effort is needed, and you get that same sense from some of the players in the club house from their interviews at the Fest. Like I said it's my opinion.

My bad, i forgot you may not have the historical context of Steff's post in mind. There is evidence that she knows and is friends with several players and other members of the Sox organization.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
My bad, i forgot you may not have the historical context of Steff's post in mind. There is evidence that she knows and is friends with several players and other members of the Sox organization. Well I haven't been here that long, so if that is considered a fact by most on here, then maybe she does. But I still have my reservations of what extent of insider information she has, or anyone else on this site has. My opinion stands.

steff
02-20-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Steff, No one knows. You certainly don't know. If he is, than great, I have no complaint. I hope he is. I'm going with the information I have, and I'm just saying that is the opinion I've formed. If things are working out with the club, great. I don't think anyone here thinks I don't hope for the best for the Sox, maybe even blindly according to some. However, you're argument doesn't hold any water. The question isn't do you have any evidence that supports he is not talking to these guys, while compromising. The question is what information do you have that proves that's not the case. You know, sometimes I think you just follow my posts around just waiting for something, anything to argue. That's fine, I have thick skin, but come up with something that proves your argument. It just seems silly to say my opinion is wrong, knowing the definition of opinion, without any facts that prove otherwise.



Yep.. I know no one...

This debate is pointless without posting my history with the Sox.. again.. and I have no interest in doing it.. again..

Bottom line.. I have plenty of evidence, first hand no less, to know that Frank is not a clubhouse cancer.

steff
02-20-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Secondly, unless you know Steff how can you make a statement, "You certainly don't know." For all you know she could be friends with several players, maybe even married or dating one.



:o:


:D:

steff
02-20-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Besides, looking at her picture, it appears she is happiliy married (to a non-Sox player) with children. Despite our differences Steff, congratulations, I wish happy and successful lives to all the posters as well.

Not married.. and no children. So much for ASSuming..

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 10:52 AM
To get back on topic, has anyone else seen substantiated quotes from Thomas that he wants to play in LA next season? I checked baseballweekly.com, and there was nothing there about it, and I skimmed through the latest issue of Baseball Weekly, and Thomas wasn't even mentioned.

I'm not familiar with Chicago radio, but do they have a knack of making things up on slow news days, just to create some buzz? If so, what little respect I had for the Chicago media, which wasn't much to begin with, drops down to almost nothing.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by steff
Yep.. I know no one...

This debate is pointless without posting my history with the Sox.. again.. and I have no interest in doing it.. again..

Bottom line.. I have plenty of evidence, first hand no less, to know that Frank is not a clubhouse cancer. I'm sure you do Steff, I was unaware, but if you say so, then that is great. But I didn't say Frank was a club house cancer. I said he needs to compromise more. There is a huge difference. I have stated that I don't want to lose Frank, but it would be nice if he made an extra effort, as a leader of a team is expected to do.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by steff
Not married.. and no children. So much for ASSuming.. Well I didn't say it for a fact, I said it appears.

steff
02-20-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm sure you do Steff, I was unaware, but if you say so, then that is great. But I didn't say Frank was a club house cancer. I said he needs to compromise more. There is a huge difference. I have stated that I don't want to lose Frank, but it would be nice if he made an extra effort, as a leader of a team is expected to do.


And, once again, you are basing your opinion from media who is RARELY, if ever, in the clubhouse to see what Frank is like with his peers.
Don't believe me.. I don't care. Listen to the media who DOES spend time in the clubhouse..

Jerko
02-20-2004, 10:57 AM
That's it. Seal and Steff, you're both grounded for an hour for this bickering. Don't you know any opinions shown on these boards may drive members away?

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm sure you do Steff, I was unaware, but if you say so, then that is great. But I didn't say Frank was a club house cancer. I said he needs to compromise more. There is a huge difference. I have stated that I don't want to lose Frank, but it would be nice if he made an extra effort, as a leader of a team is expected to do.

He's 35 years old. If he hasn't become a leader by now, it is ridiculous to think that he will become one in the future. It's just not in his nature.

One positive on the field difference I have seen in Thomas since September of 2002 is that he appears to be more calm and poised in close and late situations. In the past, his body language seemed to suggest that he would try to work the count into a walk, and let someone else come up with a big hit. Instead, last year, his body language suggested that he would try and be more aggressive and get the job done himself. Bonds seemed to improve on this as he got older, so hopefully Thomas continues this trend in the future, and shed the reputation of being a choker, which was valid for most of his career.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by steff
Bottom line.. I have plenty of evidence, first hand no less, to know that Frank is not a clubhouse cancer.

I think it's safe to assume that Frank doesn't always get along with everybody in the clubhouse, but that doesn't make him much different than, say, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa (and, unlike those two, Frank plays by the rules on the field).

Notice that Frank's perceived surliness didn't start until after the strike and got much worse after the White Flag trade. I'll bet that Frank's a bit frustrated after giving his entire career to an organization that's too incompetent to get him to a WS. And, if that discontent is manifested in Frank being a bit... um... frank with the media and his teammates, then so bet it. He's given everything to this organization and they've given him very little back.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by steff
And, once again, you are basing your opinion from media who is RARELY, if ever, in the clubhouse to see what Frank is like with his peers.
Don't believe me.. I don't care. Listen to the media who DOES spend time in the clubhouse.. Well Steff, can you just provide some information of what you heard specifically and from who, and when. I'm sure we would all like to know, instead of just saying I'm wrong. Explain why you feel the way you do. If there is some information out there that could change my opinion, I would like to hear it. Implying I'm ignorant because I don't converse with the players doesn't help me. Everyone wants to hear the inside scoop.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
I think it's safe to assume that Frank doesn't always get along with everybody in the clubhouse, but that doesn't make him much different than, say, Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa (and, unlike those two, Frank plays by the rules on the field).

Notice that Frank's perceived surliness didn't start until after the strike and got much worse after the White Flag trade. I'll bet that Frank's a bit frustrated after giving his entire career to an organization that's too incompetent to get him to a WS. And, if that discontent is manifested in Frank being a bit... um... frank with the media and his teammates, then so bet it. He's given everything to this organization and they've given him very little back. That's a dilemma betweeen him and KW and JR. When you're in the club house, all that has to go out the window because they aren't involved with that aspect of the organization. When you're on the field you are battling with your mates, and he does that. But it takes more than just that.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well Steff, can you just provide some information of what you heard specifically and from who, and when. I'm sure we would all like to know, instead of just saying I'm wrong. Explain why you feel the way you do. If there is some information out there that could change my opinion, I would like to hear it. Implying I'm ignorant because I don't converse with the players doesn't help me. Everyone wants to hear the inside scoop.

She's been around long enough and developed a reputation to the point that what she says with respects to her inside knowledge can be considered pretty much valid. Of course, this is essentially an anonymous message board, and it isn't that difficult for just about anyon to create the illusion of having insider knowledge without having to back it up with much evidence, but I don't think that's the case with Steff.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
She's been around long enough and developed a reputation to the point that what she says with respects to her inside knowledge can be considered pretty much valid. Of course, this is essentially an anonymous message board, and it isn't that difficult for just about anyon to create the illusion of having insider knowledge without having to back it up with much evidence, but I don't think that's the case with Steff. I don't doubt it, I was simply asking for specific information about the topic in debate. She said I didn't know for a fact, which I admitted. However, if she does, I would like to hear it.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's a dilemma betweeen him and KW and JR. When you're in the club house, all that has to go out the window because they aren't involved with that aspect of the organization. When you're on the field you are battling with your mates, and he does that. But it takes more than just that.

But, if you're pissed off about something, it's going to carry over into other aspects of your life. How many times have you been pissed off at your boss about something and come home and yelled at your wife or kids?

I'm not saying that Frank's the greatest guy in the world, but it's obvious that playing under JR for 13 years has made him a bit irritable. He wasn't like this early on in his career.Wouldn't you be bitter if you gave your career to JR and he gave you ZERO WS appearances in return?

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
But, if you're pissed off about something, it's going to carry over into other aspects of your life. How many times have you been pissed off at your boss about something and come home and yelled at your wife or kids?

I'm not saying that Frank's the greatest guy in the world, but it's obvious that playing under JR for 13 years has made him a bit irritable. He wasn't like this early on in his career.Wouldn't you be bitter if you gave your career to JR and he gave you ZERO WS appearances in return? I agree, but as a leader, it's detrimental to allow those worlds to collide. It hampers the team's goals. I don't dislike Frank, I just believe he needs to try harder to not let that aspect of his life affect the relationship with some of his teammates.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I agree, but as a leader, it's detrimental to allow those worlds to collide. It hampers the team's goals. I don't dislike Frank, I just believe he needs to try harder to not let that aspect of his life affect the relationship with some of his teammates.

It certainly is deterimental, but understandable for someone who went through BOTH the strike and White Flag Trade. Remember how pissed off mild-mannered Robin Ventura was after that trade? Not a single player from the '97 team, besides Frank, is still on the roster. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Frankly (no pun intended), I think it would be best for him to go somewhere else. Not that I want him to leave, but I'll bet that he'd be happier somewhere where he has a chance of winning a ring. I'm surprised that he's still here, given what little time he has left in his career.

Dadawg_77
02-20-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't doubt it, I was simply asking for specific information about the topic in debate. She said I didn't know for a fact, which I admitted. However, if she does, I would like to hear it.

With how secretive the Sox are, it could be detrimental to someone career for a friend to post what they were saying on an open message board. For all we know KW, JR could be lurking, also several members of the Chicago media read this board. Thus Steff will and should be reluctant to name her sources.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Kittle
It certainly is deterimental, but understandable for someone who went through BOTH the strike and White Flag Trade. Remember how pissed off mild-mannered Robin Ventura was after that trade? Not a single player from the '97 team, besides Frank, is still on the roster. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.

Frankly (no pun intended), I think it would be best for him to go somewhere else. Not that I want him to leave, but I'll bet that he'd be happier somewhere where he has a chance of winning a ring. I'm surprised that he's still here, given what little time he has left in his career. I'm not questioning his loyalty by any means. And he has gotten shafted plenty of times, and it is certainly understandable that he is upset about certain things. I really don't want him to go to another team, but if he wants out, I don't see how we could jut force him to want to stay here. I would only deal him though if we were able to get good value for him though. As far as WS, I don't think he'll find that in LA. They need more help than just him, and it seems they are preparing to build the team by easing in a lot of their positions with their top minor league guys over the coming years. That's fine but it certainly takes time, something Frank is relatively running out of.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
With how secretive the Sox are, it could be detrimental to someone career for a friend to post what they were saying on an open message board. For all we know KW, JR could be lurking, also several members of the Chicago media read this board. Thus Steff will and should be reluctant to name her sources. Oh Okay. I'm sure the information being provided about Frank is a good guy, with no problems with anyone ever, and that the numerous examples of Steff providing of teammates confirming this being the case would really piss off the organization. Watch out everyone.

sas1974
02-20-2004, 11:41 AM
I have to side w/ Deadguy on this one. Until I see a DIRECT QUOTE or a sound bite (in the correct context) from Frank Thomas, I don't buy any of this. This is the same crap that has plagued Frank his entire career. "People hear" that Frank doesn't want to be here or doesn't like this or doesn't like that and then all of the sudden it becomes fact. I will admit Frank has had some incidents (some his fault, some fabricated or blown out of proportion). But is that really any different than any other player of his caliber?

Frank is not a "Rah Rah guy," but if you look, you'll occasionally see him on the top step of the dugout cheering on a teammate or good play. He's not paid to be a cheerleader, that's what the fans are for. He's paid to produce results ON THE FIELD. And with a couple of small exceptions, he has done nothing but produce year in and year out.

sas1974
02-20-2004, 11:42 AM
How come nobody cracked out that crazy tomato?

sas1974
02-20-2004, 11:44 AM
Ok I guess I'll do it!
:tomatoaward

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lol, well if that convinces you, that's super, but it doesn't change my view.

Steff does know Frank and several other members of the Sox organization. When she says something, I tend to listen.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by sas1974
I have to side w/ Deadguy on this one. Until I see a DIRECT QUOTE or a sound bite (in the correct context) from Frank Thomas, I don't buy any of this. This is the same crap that has plagued Frank his entire career. "People hear" that Frank doesn't want to be here or doesn't like this or doesn't like that and then all of the sudden it becomes fact. I will admit Frank has had some incidents (some his fault, some fabricated or blown out of proportion). But is that really any different than any other player of his caliber?

Frank is not a "Rah Rah guy," but if you look, you'll occasionally see him on the top step of the dugout cheering on a teammate or good play. He's not paid to be a cheerleader, that's what the fans are for. He's paid to produce results ON THE FIELD. And with a couple of small exceptions, he has done nothing but produce year in and year out. I'm not trying to portray Frank as a bad guy. I think we're lucky to have him, especially at his price tag. I'm only trying to say that he could try a little harder to get along with his some teammates off the field. I don't foresee him as a problem necessarily, but you honestly can't say that the media made all this up, and that Frank is secretly best friends with everyone. As far as on the field, I haven't seen a noticeable problem with him, it's the interactions away from it that concerns me. In order to win, no matter how many people downplay the chemistry aspect of a team, it is important for everyone to at the very minimum have mutual respect for one another. As a leader, whether the altercations were his fault or not, it's his job to alleviate any problems that caused it or the effects that can result from it.

sas1974
02-20-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I'm not trying to portray Frank as a bad guy. I think we're lucky to have him, especially at his price tag. I'm only trying to say that he could try a little harder to get along with his some teammates off the field. I don't foresee him as a problem necessarily, but you honestly can't say that the media made all this up, and that Frank is secretly best friends with everyone. As far as on the field, I haven't seen a noticeable problem with him, it's the interactions away from it that concerns me. In order to win, no matter how many people downplay the chemistry aspect of a team, it is important for everyone to at the very minimum have mutual respect for one another. As a leader, whether the altercations were his fault or not, it's his job to alleviate any problems that caused it or the effects that can result from it.

I understand what you're getting at, I am just saying that I respectfully disagree.

I agree that Frank probably isn't secretly best friends with everyone on the team, but I don't care. I would venture to guess that there are very few teams in professional sports where everyone are best friends. And of those teams I am sure not all of them are championship-caliber teams. I would also venture to guess that even the players that don't care for Frank off the field still have a great deal of respect and admiration for what he has done on it. If they don't, then they are fools because his track record is unprecidented in this organization. I really don't care if the entire clubhouse is hanging out w/ Frank at the Hunt Club running up his bar tab as long as they can all put it together on the field. There is also a BIG difference between not being best buddies and hating each other. They are professionals that are paid to play baseball. The club house doesn't have to be a frat house for them to win. I guarantee they all have the same goal.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:20 PM
I'm not afraid to name anything in regards to knowing how Frank is with the guys.


It's because I know Frank. It's because, thanks to a personal relationship, I've been close to Frank and many other players since 1997. It's not a big secret, but since you're relatively new around here you obviously don't know that.

And like I said.. believe me or don't. I don't care. It doesn't ruin my day in the least.

And no one, including me, said that there have not been issues. EVERYONE has issues.. but you're making claims that Frank needs to do this and that, and you have no idea what you're talking about. Frank is one of the BEST guys in the clubhouse. Frank would give the shirt off his back to ANY of those guys. Frank is VERY respected, as it should be.


By the way.. it's none of anyone's business how Frank is OFF the field. Between the lines is all we, as fans, should care about. Your obsession with how he treats his teammates OFF the field is pretty strange, IMO.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
I understand what you're getting at, I am just saying that I respectfully disagree.

I agree that Frank probably isn't secretly best friends with everyone on the team, but I don't care. I would venture to guess that there are very few teams in professional sports where everyone are best friends. And of those teams I am sure not all of them are championship-caliber teams. I would also venture to guess that even the players that don't care for Frank off the field still have a great deal of respect and admiration for what he has done on it. If they don't, then they are fools because his track record is unprecidented in this organization. I really don't care if the entire clubhouse is hanging out w/ Frank at the Hunt Club running up his bar tab as long as they can all put it together on the field. There is also a BIG difference between not being best buddies and hating each other. They are professionals that are paid to play baseball. The club house doesn't have to be a frat house for them to win. I guarantee they all have the same goal. I was using an exaggeration when I said he wasn't best friends with everyone. I don't expect him to, just make sure that everyone is on the same page with mutual respect. People butt heads, I understand that, and it doesn't mean they don't have the respect. Again, I don't see Frank as a negative presence, I merely believe more needs to be expected of him, because he is the leader. From what I gathered at Sox Fest, some of the players agree with my assessment, right or wrong. By no means is Frank solely to blame for all club house mishaps, but as a leader, he needs to put an end to any of them, even if they don't involve him. That's a leader. It's what MJ did, he was a winner on many levels. I have a lot of respect for Frank, which is why I am holding him to that standard.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:30 PM
Frank is not the captain of this squad. Never has been, and has come right out and said he doesn't want to be. I don't think the Sox have had a competent captain since Robin left..

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by steff
I'm not afraid to name anything in regards to knowing how Frank is with the guys.


It's because I know Frank. It's because, thanks to a personal relationship, I've been close to Frank and many other players since 1997. It's not a big secret, but since you're relatively new around here you obviously don't know that.

And like I said.. believe me or don't. I don't care. It doesn't ruin my day in the least.

And no one, including me, said that there have not been issues. EVERYONE has issues.. but you're making claims that Frank needs to do this and that, and you have no idea what you're talking about. Frank is one of the BEST guys in the clubhouse. Frank would give the shirt off his back to ANY of those guys. Frank is VERY respected, as it should be.


By the way.. it's none of anyone's business how Frank is OFF the field. Between the lines is all we, as fans, should care about. Your obsession with how he treats his teammates OFF the field is pretty strange, IMO. I should have been more specific, but by off the field, I mean travel times and meetings, where they are all together off the field. Koch and him had a mishap last year, and these interactions happen, but he needs to keep his cool, in order to maintain stability within the team. If Koch was in the wrong, then he needs to explain that to him, and act like a true leader. Oh ya, I've been meaning to ask you, does this thing with him wanting to go to the Dodgers true?

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by steff
Frank is not the captain of this squad. Never has been, and has come right out and said he doesn't want to be. I don't think the Sox have had a competent captain since Robin left.. Exactly my point. We need him to be that guy, if he doesn't want it, then he is just another bat on the team. He needs to step up and lead us to the winner circle, especially since that is his ultimate goal.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I should have been more specific, but by off the field, I mean travel times and meetings, where they are all together off the field. Koch and him had a mishap last year, and these interactions happen, but he needs to keep his cool, in order to maintain stability within the team. If Koch was in the wrong, then he needs to explain that to him, and act like a true leader. Oh ya, I've been meaning to ask you, does this thing with him wanting to go to the Dodgers true?

"Travel times & meetings"... Frank doesn't show up for the plane of for team meetings now..? You sure you don't have him confused with Sosa..? :?:

What about the Koch issue..? I'd love to hear what you believe to be the "real" story behind that "issue"...

I'm not commenting on Frank's offseason issues. I would NEVER betray someone in that way. That's like Kenny and Ozzie opening their stupid mouths about him not calling them back.

sas1974
02-20-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I was using an exaggeration when I said he wasn't best friends with everyone. I don't expect him to, just make sure that everyone is on the same page with mutual respect. People butt heads, I understand that, and it doesn't mean they don't have the respect. Again, I don't see Frank as a negative presence, I merely believe more needs to be expected of him, because he is the leader. From what I gathered at Sox Fest, some of the players agree with my assessment, right or wrong. By no means is Frank solely to blame for all club house mishaps, but as a leader, he needs to put an end to any of them, even if they don't involve him. That's a leader. It's what MJ did, he was a winner on many levels. I have a lot of respect for Frank, which is why I am holding him to that standard.

All I am saying is that I think the ONLY thing Frank needs to do is produce ON THE FIELD. If some of those lesser players spent more time performing and less time allegedly complaining about Frank, none of this would be an issue.

MJ lead by example AND he was a VERY demanding and vocal leader in the locker room as well. That was his style. That isn't Frank's style. It's not bad, it's just different. He leads by example on the field. But let's not get the two confused here...MJ was well-respected of course, but I would not go so far as to say that everyone that played w/ Michael liked him. They liked all the winning that came along with being on the same team as MJ, but I am sure many people didn't enjoy sharing the locker room w/ his ego.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Exactly my point. We need him to be that guy, if he doesn't want it, then he is just another bat on the team. He needs to step up and lead us to the winner circle, especially since that is his ultimate goal.


You're missing the point.. Frank has said he does not want to be the leader. Been saying it since '90. Just because he's not the captain means nothing.

Frank is not the only player on this team. 1 guy does not lead 8 others anywhere unless they are skilled enough to get there.

And besides.. I thought leading the guys to the WS was Ozzie's job...

sas1974
02-20-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Exactly my point. We need him to be that guy, if he doesn't want it, then he is just another bat on the team. He needs to step up and lead us to the winner circle, especially since that is his ultimate goal.

We don't need him to be that guy. Let Jose be that guy. Let Paulie be that guy. Frank will never be that guy.

And he's not just "another bat." He's the GREATEST HITTER IN WHITE SOX HISTORY! HANDS DOWN!

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by steff
"Travel times & meetings"... Frank doesn't show up for the plane of for team meetings now..? You sure you don't have him confused with Sosa..? :?:

What about the Koch issue..? I'd love to hear what you believe to be the "real" story behind that "issue"...

I'm not commenting on Frank's offseason issues. I would NEVER betray someone in that way. That's like Kenny and Ozzie opening their stupid mouths about him not calling them back. Frank should show up, trying to uphold a presence of superiority over the heads of the rest of the players is exactly what else I'm taling about. He needs to be part of the team, and fly with them and go to team meetings with the rest of the guys. How do we expect to win when we hold different standards for different players. As far as the Koch issue, I don't know the true story, and frankly my point was that it doesn't matter. The outcome still needs to be the same, resolution, and it's Franks job as the leader to make sure that happens. And as far as not commenting on his offseason issues, I don't even have an opinion.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by steff
You're missing the point.. Frank has said he does not want to be the leader. Been saying it since '90. Just because he's not the captain means nothing.

Frank is not the only player on this team. 1 guy does not lead 8 others anywhere unless they are skilled enough to get there.

And besides.. I thought leading the guys to the WS was Ozzie's job... It's all of their jobs. Skills are necessary to win sometimes, skills and cohesiveness wins championships.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
We don't need him to be that guy. Let Jose be that guy. Let Paulie be that guy. Frank will never be that guy.

And he's not just "another bat." He's the GREATEST HITTER IN WHITE SOX HISTORY! HANDS DOWN! He surely is, but if he needs to lead as well. I'm telling you, we need him to in order to win.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:46 PM
Is there some kind of award for 200 posts? Maybe two tomatos? :)

steff
02-20-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Frank should show up, trying to uphold a presence of superiority over the heads of the rest of the players is exactly what else I'm taling about. He needs to be part of the team, and fly with them and go to team meetings with the rest of the guys. How do we expect to win when we hold different standards for different players. As far as the Koch issue, I don't know the true story, and frankly my point was that it doesn't matter. The outcome still needs to be the same, resolution, and it's Franks job as the leader to make sure that happens. And as far as not commenting on his offseason issues, I don't even have an opinion.


And so now you're saying Frank doesn't travel with the team or attend team meetings....? No offense.. but your source stinks.

And I'm sorry.. but your point appears to be based on things you have heard regarding Frank being a bad teammate. It certiantly IS relevant as to the "truth" of a situation with another player.

Obviously you are confused as to Frank's "job". Frank's job is to hit the ball. End of story.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-20-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
....The outcome still needs to be the same, resolution, and it's Franks job as the leader to make sure that happens....

For the millionth time, Frank Thomas is not the leader of the White Sox. He never was and he never will be.

Frank Thomas is the best hitter on the Sox and he is the best hitter in franchise history. However there are plenty of ballplayers better suited to be "leader" of the Sox than Frank. I dare say anyone less a brown-noser than Paul Konerko would qualify. Now that Manuel is gone I imagine even Konehead would be an acceptable leader.

When somebody can finally explain why batting average and ERA translates into leaderships skills I'll have startling new insight into the "Frank the Leader" line of thinking. Until then it's just a load of bull****.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by steff
And so now you're saying Frank doesn't travel with the team or attend team meetings....? No offense.. but your source stinks.

And I'm sorry.. but your point appears to be based on things you have heard regarding Frank being a bad teammate. It certiantly IS relevant as to the "truth" of a situation with another player.

Obviously you are confused as to Frank's "job". Frank's job is to hit the ball. End of story. I thought you said that he didn't attend meetings, I relooked, and you implied I was saying it. Misinterpretation, my fault. As far as all he needs to do is hit the ball, if that were the case, all this crap that has surrounded Frank would never have been an issue, as it has for years.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the millionth time, Frank Thomas is not the leader of the White Sox. He never was and he never will be.

Frank Thomas is the best hitter on the Sox and he is the best hitter in franchise history. However there are plenty of ballplayers better suited to be "leader" of the Sox than Frank. I dare say anyone less a brown-noser than Paul Konerko would qualify. Now that Manuel is gone I imagine even Konehead would be an acceptable leader.

When somebody can finally explain why batting average and ERA translates into leaderships skills I'll have startling new insight into the "Frank the Leader" line of thinking. Until then it's just a load of bull****.



Leave it to George to bring common sense back into the argument :D:

:hurt
Thanks PHG. You are a wise man....

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the millionth time, Frank Thomas is not the leader of the White Sox. He never was and he never will be.

Frank Thomas is the best hitter on the Sox and he is the best hitter in franchise history. However there are plenty of ballplayers better suited to be "leader" of the Sox than Frank. I dare say anyone less a brown-noser than Paul Konerko would qualify. Now that Manuel is gone I imagine even Konehead would be an acceptable leader.

When somebody can finally explain why batting average and ERA translates into leaderships skills I'll have startling new insight into the "Frank the Leader" line of thinking. Until then it's just a load of bull****. It has nothing to do with skills, it has everything to do with how long he has been there. The longest out of anyone. It's his team, and if he doesn't want to lead them, fine. But why all this controversey then? Just hit and catch the plane. Nothing else needs to be said about him.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
As far as all he needs to do is hit the ball, if that were the case, all this crap that has surrounded Frank would never have been an issue, as it has for years.


Ding, ding, ding, ding... I think you finally might have gotten it. Bad things are reported about Frank because 1. Frank is not the most eloquent speaker, and 2. because he doesn't kiss the media's rear end.
He talks and they rip him apart.. he keeps quiet and they rip him apart. He can't win...

bc2k
02-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Frank's a horrible teammate. There are two ways to be a good teammate: socially and field performance. Frank is neither. You don't need inside information to see that.

The last friend Thomas had was Durham. Thomas is an outsider in that clubhouse. His sulky introverted personality doesn't help him from reversing the trend. Hiding like a hermit in Vegas demonstrates his personality.

What teammate can respect a man who gets tagged out at the plate while not attempting to slide or knock the ball from the catcher? What teammate can respect a man who openly claims he's not interested in driving in his teammate through any other mean but home run? Teammates can respect the strong, introverted, silent type if that man does his job on the field. It's understandable why Thomas is seen as an outsider to his teammates.

But beyond all that, the caliber congregation of teammates who have taken a public stand against Thomas is the only proof needed.

steff
02-20-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It has nothing to do with skills, it has everything to do with how long he has been there. The longest out of anyone. It's his team, and if he doesn't want to lead them, fine. But why all this controversey then? Just hit and catch the plane. Nothing else needs to be said about him.

Well hell.. I've been at my company a lot longer than some others.. guess I should be the CEO by now then, eh?


Tenure = Leader... :?:

poorme
02-20-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

But beyond all that, the caliber congregation of teammates who have taken a public stand against Thomas is the only proof needed.

Please list the "caliber congregation."

steff
02-20-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
The last friend Thomas had was Durham.


You're way off there..

Check Aaron's comments about Frank this offseason as proof.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by steff
Well hell.. I've been at my company a lot longer than some others.. guess I should be the CEO by now then, eh?


Tenure = Leader... :?: No, that's like saying he should be the GM by now. If you have 9 other people doing the same exact job, then the fact that you've been there longer would lead you to the probability of being the team leader. Unless of course you were not qualified or able to. Does Frank have the inability to lead, or does he just not feel like it? I presume he doesn't feel like it, and that in of itself is a problem.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by steff
Ding, ding, ding, ding... I think you finally might have gotten it. Bad things are reported about Frank because 1. Frank is not the most eloquent speaker, and 2. because he doesn't kiss the media's rear end.
He talks and they rip him apart.. he keeps quiet and they rip him apart. He can't win...

Steff, isn't it possible that if he says and does the right things that nobody would rip him? I know some people want to paint Frank as a victim here - but he is only a victim of his own words and actions - not persecution from management and the media.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
What teammate can respect a man who openly claims he's not interested in driving in his teammate through any other mean but home run?

Hmmm... let's see... Frank's had less than 100 walks only ONCE in seasons when he's played 140 or more games (including last season). Oh, and there's that career .428 OBP.

Yeah, how can they respect a selfish guy like that?

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:08 PM
OK, maybe it's just me but I'm getting confused here.

Seal, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? You've backtracked and changed your opinion about 20 times and continued to
argue in the face of facts throughout this thread.

Is your point that Frank should never get into any arguements or have any disagreements with anyone on the team ever? It's his responsibility to make sure nothing ever happens? If that's it, then you are living in a dream world. Disagreements happen. It's a part of life. Especially when you spend almost 7 months together with the same people every single day. I think a lot of what happens get over-blown by the media anyway. Don't believe everything you read from them...

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Kittle
Hmmm... let's see... Frank's had less than 100 walks only ONCE in seasons when he's played 140 or more games (including last season). Oh, and there's that career .428 OBP.

Yeah, how can they respect a selfish guy like that?

Nobody ever said he isn't a good player. Nobody said he isn't a great hitter. People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Nobody ever said he isn't a good player. Nobody said he isn't a great hitter. People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

My point was that, if Frank was looking to hit the ball out of the park instead of working the count and taking a walk when he could, his stats obviously don't reflect it. It's very difficult to have 100 BBs in the majors when you're trying to crush the ball out of the park all the time.

:nandrolone

"Joo know he's right!"

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, maybe it's just me but I'm getting confused here.

Seal, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? You've backtracked and changed your opinion about 20 times and continued to
argue in the face of facts throughout this thread.

Is your point that Frank should never get into any arguements or have any disagreements with anyone on the team ever? It's his responsibility to make sure nothing ever happens? If that's it, then you are living in a dream world. Disagreements happen. It's a part of life. Especially when you spend almost 7 months together with the same people every single day. I think a lot of what happens get over-blown by the media anyway. Don't believe everything you read from them... You're distorting what I've said. I said disagreements will happen, but when they do it's Frank's job as a leader, whoever they are between, to mediate the differences. He needs to be the bigger man, even when he's right, and not allow these petty differences to interfere with the chemistry of the team. It's not a difficult concept.

poorme
02-20-2004, 01:15 PM
That's a joke. This league has drug addicts, spousal abusers, accused rapists and murderers and Frank Thomas is a bad guy. OK.

Kittle
02-20-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by poorme
That's a joke. This league has drug addicts, spousal abusers, accused rapists and murderers and Frank Thomas is a bad guy. OK.

Yeah, it's OK to shoot yourself full of steroids, cork your bat, and annoy the hell out of your teammates by playing loud Latin music in the clubhouse as long as your smile for the camera and say the right things in front of the mic.

:barney&sham

See what a great guy Sammy is? Frank should be more like HIM.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're distorting what I've said. I said disagreements will happen, but when they do it's Frank's job as a leader, whoever they are between, to mediate the differences. He needs to be the bigger man, even when he's right, and not allow these petty differences to interfere with the chemistry of the team. It's not a difficult concept.

I don't know why you insist on saying Frank should be the leader of this team. It's been said time and time again, (IIRC, even by Frank himself) that's he's not the leader of this team. Jose seems to be right now.

That being said, why is it all on Frank's shoulder's to be the bigger man? These guys are all adults and all professionals. They should know what's right and what's wrong by now. The problem only happens when the media blows everything out of proportion or someone (Konerko, Wells, Guillen, Williams) says something directly to the media about Frank. It's not like he can control what other people say/think about him.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Nobody ever said he isn't a good player. Nobody said he isn't a great hitter. People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

But his high OBP and high walk total contradict the arguments that he is selfish and only cares about his own stats. Guys like Juan Gonzalez and Garret Anderson who refuse to take walks to pump up their own RBI stats are selfish. Thomas shows patience and discipline at the plate, which creates RBI opportinities for his teammates.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I don't know why you insist on saying Frank should be the leader of this team. It's been said time and time again, (IIRC, even by Frank himself) that's he's not the leader of this team. Jose seems to be right now.

That being said, why is it all on Frank's shoulder's to be the bigger man? These guys are all adults and all professionals. They should know what's right and what's wrong by now. The problem only happens when the media blows everything out of proportion or someone (Konerko, Wells, Guillen, Williams) says something directly to the media about Frank. It's not like he can control what other people say/think about him. Jose is one of the guys at Sox Fest who said we certainly need Frank, but also agreed 100% with Guillen that he has to play the right way. If Frank is handing over his rightful spot as leader, than he needs to get on board with what the leader of the club is saying.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're distorting what I've said. I said disagreements will happen, but when they do it's Frank's job as a leader, whoever they are between, to mediate the differences. He needs to be the bigger man, even when he's right, and not allow these petty differences to interfere with the chemistry of the team. It's not a difficult concept.

:whoflungpoo

The hating is reaching an all time level of stupidity...

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
than he needs to get on board with what the leader of the club is saying.

When or why hasn't he?

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
When or why hasn't he? Well he seems to take exception to the Sox management by not calling them in order to spite them, and Jose, the team leader, is in agreement with the manager.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well he seems to take exception to the Sox management by not calling them in order to spite them, and Jose, the team leader, is in agreement with the manager.

And you know this how?

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Jose is one of the guys at Sox Fest who said we certainly need Frank, but also agreed 100% with Guillen that he has to play the right way. If Frank is handing over his rightful spot as leader, than he needs to get on board with what the leader of the club is saying.

Jose Valentin is not the leader of the Chicago White Sox. I'm not even sure the team has any sort of leadership from its players, which is one of the reasons why there are so many questions about the upcoming season.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by poorme
That's a joke. This league has drug addicts, spousal abusers, accused rapists and murderers and Frank Thomas is a bad guy. OK.

Now show me who said he is a bad guy.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well he seems to take exception to the Sox management by not calling them in order to spite them, and Jose, the team leader, is in agreement with the manager.

Nobody know why Frank hasn't returned any phone calls. As long as he comes to ST ready to play and has a typical "Frank Thomas type" year this season, I don't think anyone will care what he did or didn't do in the off-season.

Also, as Steff brought up in Soxfest, that information probably should have never been made public in the first place. It puts Frank in a bad light in the eyes of people like you.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:whoflungpoo

The hating is reaching an all time level of stupidity...

I agree. The Frank-haters must really be desperate if they've sunk this low.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
But his high OBP and high walk total contradict the arguments that he is selfish and only cares about his own stats. Guys like Juan Gonzalez and Garret Anderson who refuse to take walks to pump up their own RBI stats are selfish. Thomas shows patience and discipline at the plate, which creates RBI opportinities for his teammates.

Nobody ever said he isn't a good player. Nobody said he isn't a great hitter. People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:whoflungpoo

The hating is reaching an all time level of stupidity...

Ahhh the Frank-hater arguement again...

This one never gets old. We need one more thread about how good Rowand is at diving into walls, and one more about JM being a bad manager.

NOBODY HATES FRANK.

JC456
02-20-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the millionth time, Frank Thomas is not the leader of the White Sox. He never was and he never will be.

Frank Thomas is the best hitter on the Sox and he is the best hitter in franchise history. However there are plenty of ballplayers better suited to be "leader" of the Sox than Frank. I dare say anyone less a brown-noser than Paul Konerko would qualify. Now that Manuel is gone I imagine even Konehead would be an acceptable leader.

When somebody can finally explain why batting average and ERA translates into leaderships skills I'll have startling new insight into the "Frank the Leader" line of thinking. Until then it's just a load of bull****.



I think the person with the best talent, is successful, experienced and has longevity qualifies someone as a leader. A go to person.

Was Michael J. a leader?
Wasn't he the best player on the team?
Wasn't it after years of play he gained experience in the NBA that he was finally able to boost the level of players around him and win?
If you looked at his statistics, weren't they the best on the team and in Basketball at the time? That would be shooting percentage, defensive skills and steals. Also assists and rebounds. I think he was fairly good at all of these. That's why he was an MVP a couple of times.

He wanted to win and he wanted the players around him to play better and he drove them to play better and the results were reflected in World Championships. He was dedicated to his team.

Does Frank have any of the qualities Michael had?
Does he want to win?
Does he want the players around him to play harder and at 120%?
Does he push them to perform better in tougher games?

If he doesn't want these, then you are correct he is not a leader. But if he doesn't want these, then he isn't a very good teammate. I think his teammates want to see him act the way Michael did.

I'd ask, in your words, what defines a leader in a clubhouse?

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:48 PM
Can you just imagine what would happen if everyone would stop poking and prodding Frank? I mean just let him hit the baseball and leave it at that? Maybe cut him some slack from time to time when things aren't 100% perfect after a comment he makes or he has an off-season by his standards.

Wow, imagine that. I cannot remember the last time this team or the media just shut up and let Frank play...

Maybe he should pop steroids, blast his stereo in the clubhouse, scream "this is MY HOUSE" whenever someone questions him and top it off by beating his wife. Then he could lose a whole mess of cash in a questionable way and laugh about taking vitamins with the press. I am sure he would get better publicity and people would like him better then.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Nobody ever said he isn't a good player. Nobody said he isn't a great hitter. People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

Walks and OBP tie into the overall philosophy of the player and the man. You seem to be implying there's no correlation between what a player is like on the field and off.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Nobody know why Frank hasn't returned any phone calls. As long as he comes to ST ready to play and has a typical "Frank Thomas type" year this season, I don't think anyone will care what he did or didn't do in the off-season.

Also, as Steff brought up in Soxfest, that information probably should have never been made public in the first place. It puts Frank in a bad light in the eyes of people like you. You're right, I won't care about that if he comes to ST and is excited about playing. But when we don't hear from him, and management doesn't hear from him, and the only thing we do hear about him is that he wants to be a Dodger, I tend to believe that there may be a problem.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Ahhh the Frank-hater arguement again...

This one never gets old. We need one more thread about how good Rowand is at diving into walls, and one more about JM being a bad manager.

NOBODY HATES FRANK.

No, they just enjoy ripping on him for perceived faults even when they have nothing to back it up and in the face of direct comments from someone who knows him and his teammates personally.

It gets really really old. Meanwhile Frank is going to come out and have a typical Frank style season and the haters will continue to bitch.

BTW, have you seen any of bc2k's posts on Frank ever? You still think no one hates Frank?

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
People are saying they don't respect him as a man, as a leader or as a teammate. Those are completely different things.

Who? Got any quotes to back that up?

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by JC456

Was Michael J. a leader?
Wasn't he the best player on the team?
Wasn't it after years of play he gained experience in the NBA that he was finally able to boost the level of players around him and win?
If you looked at his statistics, weren't they the best on the team and in Basketball at the time? That would be shooting percentage, defensive skills and steals. Also assists and rebounds. I think he was fairly good at all of these. That's why he was an MVP a couple of times.


Oh for crying out loud, just about every athlete falls short of MJ. Even attempting to compare and contrast Thomas and Jordan is ridiculous, as Thomas clearly never was and never will be at that level.

Not everyone has to be MJ to be an asset to the team.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Walks and OBP tie into the overall philosophy of the player and the man. You seem to be implying there's no correlation between what a player is like on the field and off.

That was not what I intended on implying. I think you read too much into my statement.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're right, I won't care about that if he comes to ST and is excited about playing. But when we don't hear from him, and management doesn't hear from him, and the only thing we do hear about him is that he wants to be a Dodger, I tend to believe that there may be a problem.

Please show me the quote where Frank himself said he wants to be traded to the Dodgers.

When people quit putting words into his mouth and quit assuming things about him that they hear from second-hand information, then maybe he'll get a fair shake...

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're right, I won't care about that if he comes to ST and is excited about playing. But when we don't hear from him, and management doesn't hear from him, and the only thing we do hear about him is that he wants to be a Dodger, I tend to believe that there may be a problem.

I'm sorry, do you have any evidence that Frank spoke to any of the 4 previous managers he worked for during the off season ever?

This is KW and OG's fault. They should have called and tried to reach him and when he didn't call back, they could have sent him a letter if they wanted to talk to him. Heck, they could have gotten on a plane and flown out there if it was that big of a deal, but instead they decided to spill their guts to the media and make it an even bigger issue. Anyone think Frank is going to cave in AFTER they decide to make him look like an ass?

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, they just enjoy ripping on him for perceived faults even when they have nothing to back it up and in the face of direct comments from someone who knows him and his teammates personally.

It gets really really old. Meanwhile Frank is going to come out and have a typical Frank style season and the haters will continue to bitch.

BTW, have you seen any of bc2k's posts on Frank ever? You still think no one hates Frank?

OK - you got me on that one. bc2K does seem to hate Frank. But even that may/may not be the case. As many times as people call others around here Frank-haters just because they point to flaws - it becomes as if there is this large class of fans that really do hate him.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Who? Got any quotes to back that up?

People on this board...I was not talking about teammates. i was talking about those here who are called Frank-haters just because they have negative things to say about him.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Frank's a horrible teammate. There are two ways to be a good teammate: socially and field performance. Frank is neither. You don't need inside information to see that.

The last friend Thomas had was Durham. Thomas is an outsider in that clubhouse. His sulky introverted personality doesn't help him from reversing the trend. Hiding like a hermit in Vegas demonstrates his personality.

What teammate can respect a man who gets tagged out at the plate while not attempting to slide or knock the ball from the catcher? What teammate can respect a man who openly claims he's not interested in driving in his teammate through any other mean but home run? Teammates can respect the strong, introverted, silent type if that man does his job on the field. It's understandable why Thomas is seen as an outsider to his teammates.

But beyond all that, the caliber congregation of teammates who have taken a public stand against Thomas is the only proof needed.

Yes, bc2k. We know you want Frank Thomas off this team. You've made no secret of that fact ever since you first came to this board. Seriously, when did Frank ever say that he was not interested in driving in a teammate though any other means but a home run. Nothing like that has ever been reported at this site or anywhere else for that matter.

What Frank did say last season was that he was looking to drive the ball more. He also said that he wouldn't pass up an opportunity to pull the ball if he got a pitch out over the heart of the plate that he could handle.

As for the issue of whether Frank gets the job done on the field: how many Sox games did you watch last season. If Frank wasn't getting the job done, then nobody else was, either, because in spite of everything, he was still the best hitter on the team. Opposing managers made it extremely clear that they were much more willing to take their chances with Ordonez than with Thomas in a close game. Why? Because they knew who was more likley to be a run-producer in those situations.

Frank Thomas carried the White Sox on his back for several stretches last season. Nobody else, save for perhaps Carlos Lee in mid-September, even came close to doing that. If Frank Thomas is done, then the Sox may as well give up now, because nobody on the team was more productive last season than the Big Hurt.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
OK - you got me on that one. bc2K does seem to hate Frank. But even that may/may not be the case. As many times as people call others around here Frank-haters just because they point to flaws - it becomes as if there is this large class of fans that really do hate him.

No, I don't think the majority of Sox fans hate Frank, but you have to admit the amount of ill-will he generates from some of the posters for perceived faults which have often come from questionable sources is silly.

I imagine if the Sox manage to retain him people will be saying similar stupid things about Magglio in another 8 years... :?:

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
People on this board...I was not talking about teammates. i was talking about those here who are called Frank-haters just because they have negative things to say about him.

Tell, without knowing him personally and without playing on the same team as him, how in the hell can anyone on this board respect him as a man and a teammate???

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, they just enjoy ripping on him for perceived faults even when they have nothing to back it up and in the face of direct comments from someone who knows him and his teammates personally.

It gets really really old. Meanwhile Frank is going to come out and have a typical Frank style season and the haters will continue to bitch.

BTW, have you seen any of bc2k's posts on Frank ever? You still think no one hates Frank? Jose said at Sox Fest that Frank is needed and a good player, but he needs to play the right way. I heard that from his mouth. Forgive me if I choose first hand information as oppsed to second hand. And how about we get some direct comments that support what you're backing. Right now we have some saying Frank needs to step up, and we have others who say he doesn't because they know Frank Thomas. Okay?

jabrch
02-20-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Please show me the quote where Frank himself said he wants to be traded to the Dodgers.

When people quit putting words into his mouth and quit assuming things about him that they hear from second-hand information, then maybe he'll get a fair shake...

This is a 2 sided arguement here...

A) When Frank talks to the media like most other players do (certainly most players who are the best players on their respective teams), people may not misunderstand him so much

and

B) Since when does he not get "a fair shake"? He has every chance to say/do the right thing. He choses to say nothing, or to often say things like he is just going to focus on hitting HRs. As a leader (I know he isn't the team's captain and doesn't want to be a leader, but by default your best player has some leadership burden on him) these are the reasons why he is treated how he is. But he certainly gets a "fair shake" in my eyes.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Tell, without knowing him personally and without playing on the same team as him, how in the hell can anyone on this board respect him as a man and a teammate???

As a baseball fan, we always evaluate the kind of men/teammates people are. The same way we can judge Sosa to be a filthbucket and a piece of crap in the lockerroom when we don't know him or play with him, we can judge Frank, right?

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Jose said at Sox Fest that Frank is needed and a good player, but he needs to play the right way. I heard that from his mouth. Forgive me if I choose first hand information as oppsed to second hand. And how about we get some direct comments that support what you're backing. Right now we have some saying Frank needs to step up, and we have others who say he doesn't because they know Frank Thomas. Okay?

Okay, What does "playing the game the right way" mean? As far as I am concerned, he has been playing the game the way it should be played for most of the past 14 years.

Did Jose elaborate, or are you assuming he was implying that Frank hasn't been doing that?

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, I don't think the majority of Sox fans hate Frank, but you have to admit the amount of ill-will he generates from some of the posters for perceived faults which have often come from questionable sources is silly.

I imagine if the Sox manage to retain him people will be saying similar stupid things about Magglio in another 8 years... :?:

I wouldn't be suriprised. Some people just aren't happy unless they're making other people miserable. I fully expect the Maggs-haters to show up sooner or later- probably sooner.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, What does "playing the game the right way" mean? As far as I am concerned, he has been playing the game the way it should be played for most of the past 14 years.

Did Jose elaborate, or are you assuming he was implying that Frank hasn't been doing that? From his tone, and you don't have to agree but this is how I interpreted it, that Frank needs to step up and be more of a leader, as I pointed out previously. I feel that he meant he does a lot of things well that help the team, but that he needs to improve in other areas.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Jose said at Sox Fest that Frank is needed and a good player, but he needs to play the right way. I heard that from his mouth. Forgive me if I choose first hand information as oppsed to second hand. And how about we get some direct comments that support what you're backing. Right now we have some saying Frank needs to step up, and we have others who say he doesn't because they know Frank Thomas. Okay?

Exactly when has Frank not played the game the right way? I'm still waiting for someone to provide an answer to that question. No one has been able to. Even Guillen, the idiot who made the comment in the first place, couldn't list any examples of that type of behavior from Thomas.

I can understand that some people don't like Frank. That's fine. There are a number of baseball players I don't like. The difference is that I don't go out of my way to slam those other players by making things up or taking things out of context just so I can win an argument. The sooner the Frank-haters realize that they would be better off just sticking to the facts and not trying to twist everything so it makes Frank look bad, the better off everyone will be.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, I don't think the majority of Sox fans hate Frank, but you have to admit the amount of ill-will he generates from some of the posters for perceived faults which have often come from questionable sources is silly.

I imagine if the Sox manage to retain him people will be saying similar stupid things about Magglio in another 8 years... :?:

Yeah vodoo you are right. I can admit that.

My only problem with Frank stems from wanting my best player to also be a leader; on and off the field. To me, it is not enough to just merely hit. Sosa, Bonds, etc. are jerkoffs in the clubhouse. Bonds is a huge jerkoff to the media also. Those guys, as the best players on their team, should have an obligation to be more of leaders whether they want to or not. I know that's not always fair, but that's what makes a good player into a great player (Jeter, for example)

Frank clearly is the best hitter on the team. As such, I just wish he'd take a larger role as a team leader - that's all.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Is there some kind of award for 200 posts? Maybe two tomatos? :)

I think this is a better picture:http://www.ianai.net/jokes/forumpix/threadwontdie.jpg

JC456
02-20-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Oh for crying out loud, just about every athlete falls short of MJ. Even attempting to compare and contrast Thomas and Jordan is ridiculous, as Thomas clearly never was and never will be at that level.

Not everyone has to be MJ to be an asset to the team.

The question is, what made Michael better than everyone else? Was it merely his skill, or was it his desire to be the best and win?

The things he did to make the Bulls a winner is one of the toughest things in sports to do. But I believe he wanted to win so bad, he stayed on top of his teammates constantly to get them to improve and play at a level to be a winner. All that is, is a leader. Everyone can become one of those. Frank can too, if he stepped up and started pushing his teammates to play harder, like Konerko last year needed it. How about Koch, he needs it now as well. Frank ain't gettin any younger.

Remember, you don't have to be Michael Jordan to appreciate your place in your sport. Frank's is with the White Sox and he should be doing the things I stated Michael did to be successful and win.

I bet Michael got in many players faces and told his teammates they were slacking and demanded them to pick it up. Not in the paper, but in the locker room and on the court. I think Frank could do that!

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The sooner the Frank-haters realize that they would be better off just sticking to the facts and not trying to twist everything so it makes Frank look bad, the better off everyone will be.

back to the Frank-haters



(almost) None of us HATE Frank. We just wish he took a bigger role as a team leader.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
This is a 2 sided arguement here...

A) When Frank talks to the media like most other players do (certainly most players who are the best players on their respective teams), people may not misunderstand him so much

and

B) Since when does he not get "a fair shake"? He has every chance to say/do the right thing. He choses to say nothing, or to often say things like he is just going to focus on hitting HRs. As a leader (I know he isn't the team's captain and doesn't want to be a leader, but by default your best player has some leadership burden on him) these are the reasons why he is treated how he is. But he certainly gets a "fair shake" in my eyes.

It's because everything he says (or doesn't say) and does is perceived in a negative way. His comments about trying to hit more homeruns are a perfect example. There are two ways to look at that comment.

1. He is selfish and only trying to drive up his personal stats.

2. He is tired of watching good pitches go by in an attempt to try to draw a walk or hit the ball the other way when he knows he has the ability to put the ball over the left-field wall. Which to me is a good idea when you have the DP kings hitting in the #4 and #5 spots right behind you...

Guess which way the media portrayed it?

Meanwhile, there is a guy on the northside of town who does nothing BUT swing for the fences every time up no matter what while striking out 100+ times a year. Yet he is regarded as a hero.

Tell me how that's fair.

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Jose said at Sox Fest that Frank is needed and a good player, but he needs to play the right way. I heard that from his mouth. Forgive me if I choose first hand information as oppsed to second hand. And how about we get some direct comments that support what you're backing. Right now we have some saying Frank needs to step up, and we have others who say he doesn't because they know Frank Thomas. Okay?

Here's a totally different take:

Why doesn't Jose Valentin shut his trap and learn to play the right way?

For too many years now, Valentin has been the "designated heart and soul" of a team completely lacking in heart and soul.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Here's a totally different take:

Why doesn't Jose Valentin shut his trap and learn to play the right way?

For too many years now, Valentin has been the "designated heart and soul" of a team completely lacking in heart and soul.

Yeah, nice team leader. He refuses to give up switch hitting, forcing them to platoon him...

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Exactly when has Frank not played the game the right way? I'm still waiting for someone to provide an answer to that question. No one has been able to. Even Guillen, the idiot who made the comment in the first place, couldn't list any examples of that type of behavior from Thomas.

I can understand that some people don't like Frank. That's fine. There are a number of baseball players I don't like. The difference is that I don't go out of my way to slam those other players by making things up or taking things out of context just so I can win an argument. The sooner the Frank-haters realize that they would be better off just sticking to the facts and not trying to twist everything so it makes Frank look bad, the better off everyone will be. When have I ever said that I hate Frank Thomas. He is my second favorite player ever. Because of that, I can't just be as easily satisfied as you, I expect more. He is a great player, but I want him to be considered one of the best. In order for that to happen, he needs to step up even more than he has and make the people around him better. For those of you who don't consider that his job, that's fine, but I think more of Frank to just be okay with that. He wants a WS, he needs to go after it, and that takes a lot of work, and not just individual work. It takes a total team effort where everyone is doing their job, working hard together, and being leaders. Frank isn't the only one who needs to be a leader, but it starts with him.

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, nice team leader. He refuses to give up switch hitting, forcing them to platoon him...

Totally agree. All I ever hear is Manos this and Manos that, I've got news for Manos - If I were the GM, there is no way in the world I would have picked up his sorry butt for another year.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
back to the Frank-haters



(almost) None of us HATE Frank. We just wish he took a bigger role as a team leader.

I think you're going to be dissapointed then. Frank Thomas is not a leader. He never has been, and he never will be. It's just not his personality.

Scottie Pippen isn't a leader, either, yet he has never faced the amount of criticism for his mistakes that Thomas has. Granted, Pippen had Jordan around to shield him from much the negative things that were being said about the Bulls, but even during the year-and-half that Jordan was retired (the first time), Pippen was treated extremely well by the Chicago media. The only time he was harshly criticized was when he sat on the bench and sulked while Toni Kukoc beat the Knicks with buzzer-beating jumper. And that criticism was deserved.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, nice team leader. He refuses to give up switch hitting, forcing them to platoon him... They tried only lefty hitting in winter ball and he was much worse. But I don't see the connection regardless.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by JC456
The question is, what made Michael better than everyone else? Was it merely his skill, or was it his desire to be the best and win?

The things he did to make the Bulls a winner is one of the toughest things in sports to do. But I believe he wanted to win so bad, he stayed on top of his teammates constantly to get them to improve and play at a level to be a winner. All that is, is a leader. Everyone can become one of those. Frank can too, if he stepped up and started pushing his teammates to play harder, like Konerko last year needed it. How about Koch, he needs it now as well. Frank ain't gettin any younger.

Remember, you don't have to be Michael Jordan to appreciate your place in your sport. Frank's is with the White Sox and he should be doing the things I stated Michael did to be successful and win.

I bet Michael got in many players faces and told his teammates they were slacking and demanded them to pick it up. Not in the paper, but in the locker room and on the court. I think Frank could do that!

Basketball is a lot different than baseball. I can't exactly see Frank getting in Koch's face about how he pitches when Frank probably doesn't know a whole lot about how to do it himself...

Kilroy
02-20-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
My only problem with Frank stems from wanting my best player to also be a leader; on and off the field.

You need to get over that. Just because a player is the best player on the team, doesn't make him the leader. Konerko and Jose have been perceived as team leaders, and neither one of them is close to being the best player on the team.

Leadership has little to do with performance. And having the ability to be a leader doesn't mean that a person has the desire to be a leader.

Bottom line is, why is it important to you that Frank be the leader? In my book, its only important that the team have leadership, no matter where it's coming from.

Paulwny
02-20-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I know that's not always fair, but that's what makes a good player into a great player (Jeter, for example)




Jeter is just a rah, rah, guy who really plays up to the tv camera. I've never heard of him getting into anyone's face, that's Torre's job to deal with million dollar egos.

What exactly is eveyone's definition of a team leader and what exactly do they want Frank to say or do on and off the field?

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
You need to get over that. Just because a player is the best player on the team, doesn't make him the leader. Konerko and Jose have been perceived as team leaders, and neither one of them is close to being the best player on the team.

Leadership has little to do with performance. And having the ability to be a leader doesn't mean that a person has the desire to be a leader.

Bottom line is, why is it important to you that Frank be the leader? In my book, its only important that the team have leadership, no matter where it's coming from.

I shudder when I think of Valentin and Konerko being the team leaders. Maybe that's the problem - not Thomas.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I bet Michael got in many players faces and told his teammates they were slacking and demanded them to pick it up. Not in the paper, but in the locker room and on the court. I think Frank could do that!

You're asking Frank to totally restructure his personality type, which is nearly impossible to do over the longterm.

Michael did the things he did because it was in his nature to do those things.

Frank does the things he does because it is in his nature to so.
He has never pretended to be the leader of this team and he has never felt the need to get in other people's faces if they are struggling. That kind of behavior from a teammate may in fact may be more detrimental to the chemistry of the team.

It was reported last August, however, that Thomas did work with Konerko to help him straighten things out with his swing. He never took the low road and slammed Konerko for essentially letting the whole team down for the entire season. The media gave him plenty of oportunities to slam Paul during the season, but he never took the bait. Obviously Frank forgives and forgets rather easilly, because Konerko deserved far more hatred from him and the fan base for his performance in 2003.

Those that expect him to become the Mike Ditka of baseball need to get over the fact that he never will be that kind of player. An introvert is an introvert. An extrovert is an extrovert. A passive person is a passive person. An aggressive person is an aggressive person. I'm sure there have been short spurts of times when Frank has been more aggressive in terms of being a leader, until he regressed to his usual self.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I shudder when I think of Valentin and Konerko being the team leaders. Maybe that's the problem - not Thomas. Well there is a way to fix that, Thomas stepping up.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
They tried only lefty hitting in winter ball and he was much worse. But I don't see the connection regardless.

I think it has to do with the fact that Valentin has criticized Frank so many times for being selfish, when Jose has done nothing but look out for himself when things have gone badly. I remember Darrin Jackson saying something about how Valentin's supposed leadership came and went depending on how the Sox were doing. I distinctly remember him saying that Jose was more vocal when he was hitting well, and when the team was winning.

I don't know about you, but anyone who shies away from being a leader when the going gets tough is no leader at all.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
You're asking Frank to totally restructure his personality type, which is nearly impossible to do over the longterm.

Michael did the things he did because it was in his nature to do those things.

Frank does the things he does because it is in his nature to so.
He has never pretended to be the leader of this team and he has never felt the need to get in other people's faces if they are struggling. That kind of behavior from a teammate may in fact may be more detrimental to the chemistry of the team.

It was reported last August, however, that Thomas did work with Konerko to help him straighten things out with his swing. He never took the low road and slammed Konerko for essentially letting the whole team down for the entire season. The media gave him plenty of oportunities to slam Paul during the season, but he never took the bait. Obviously Frank forgives and forgets rather easilly, because Konerko deserved far more hatred from him and the fan base for his performance in 2003.

Those that expect him to become the Mike Ditka of baseball need to get over the fact that he never will be that kind of player. An introvert is an introvert. An extrovert is an extrovert. A passive person is a passive person. An aggressive person is an aggressive person. I'm sure there have been short spurts of times when Frank has been more aggressive in terms of being a leader, until he regressed to his usual self. There's no definitive style of leadership. Any style can be effective. Frank doesn't have to yell, he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want. Helping Konerko with his swing, that is showing leadership, being the bigger man, despite what happened before, for the good of the team. That's what I'm talking about, more of that.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
When have I ever said that I hate Frank Thomas. He is my second favorite player ever. Because of that, I can't just be as easily satisfied as you, I expect more. He is a great player, but I want him to be considered one of the best. In order for that to happen, he needs to step up even more than he has and make the people around him better. For those of you who don't consider that his job, that's fine, but I think more of Frank to just be okay with that. He wants a WS, he needs to go after it, and that takes a lot of work, and not just individual work. It takes a total team effort where everyone is doing their job, working hard together, and being leaders. Frank isn't the only one who needs to be a leader, but it starts with him.

Okay, let's break this down...

How does one make the players around oneself better?

In basketball, it is easy. You rotate defensively, pass the ball, pay attention to blockouts so your teammates can get a rebound, etc. It's easy to see the team oriented stats and play.

In baseball it is a lot less clear cut. In fact most of what people talk about when it comes to making your teammates better in baseball is code for "leading with your mouth". Because if you talk about stats that are team oriented, Frank is always right there. He drives guys in, he takes walks, he scores runs, he hits sacrifice flies, etc. In fact year after year he is among the team leaders if not THE team leader in many team oriented stats.

So, it seems to me you are back to the same argument. You want Frank to be more mouthy in the locker room. Be more of a cheerleader. Now, given Frank's past history of inserting his foot in his mouth and desire not to be the vocal leader of the team, I can only ask one question, "Why do you want this?" Isn't it better to have leaders who actively WANT to be leaders? Aren't guys like Konerko (in all his mouthy glory) or Jose or even Carlos Lee be that vocal presence you desire.

If you continue to insist on getting angry when the square peg won't fit into your round hole, I refuse to be sympathetic, but I do promise to be here to point out the fact that the peg is square and the hole is round every single time you or anyone else insists on trying.

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Frank Thomas's behavior a couple of years ago concerning David Wells's accusations was nothing less than remarkable. I have nothing but respect for this guy after that (coupled with Reinsdorf's pulling the trigger on the Diminished Skills Clause).

In my mind, leadership comes from the bottom up. A leader is only as powerful as though who follow him allow him to be. Could Frank Thomas be the leader of this team? Certainly - if they all chose to follow him. The point is that a lot of players - evidently - choose not to follow his lead.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I shudder when I think of Valentin and Konerko being the team leaders. Maybe that's the problem - not Thomas.

I could just imagine Konerko getting in someone's face over a poor performance. More than likely, it would be followed by a few minutes of doubled over laughter from the player it is directed at.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I think it has to do with the fact that Valentin has criticized Frank so many times for being selfish, when Jose has done nothing but look out for himself when things have gone badly. I remember Darrin Jackson saying something about how Valentin's supposed leadership came and went depending on how the Sox were doing. I distinctly remember him saying that Jose was more vocal when he was hitting well, and when the team was winning.

I don't know about you, but anyone who shies away from being a leader when the going gets tough is no leader at all. That's why we need more leaders, including Frank. I only said Jose should be listened by Frank because someone else said Frank deferred his leadership role to Jose. I said if that's the case, he had better follow him, or step up himself.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
They tried only lefty hitting in winter ball and he was much worse. But I don't see the connection regardless.

I had not heard that. Was that this year?

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's why we need more leaders, including Frank. I only said Jose should be listened by Frank because someone else said Frank deferred his leadership role to Jose. I said if that's the case, he had better follow him, or step up himself.

You can't make yourself "the leader", no matter how hard you try.

Hey I just hit 800 posts.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well there is a way to fix that, Thomas stepping up.

Frank isn't a leader, though. It's not in his personality. He has never asked or claimed to be the leader of the Chicago White Sox. Now that I think of it, Magglio Ordonez hasn't, either. I wonder how long it will take before people complain about his lack of leadership.

Some people just aren't cut out to lead. Let me ask you this: should the person with the highest IQ in the United States become the next President? I don't think so. Why? Because he or she may not be right person for the job.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, let's break this down...

How does one make the players around oneself better?

In basketball, it is easy. You rotate defensively, pass the ball, pay attention to blockouts so your teammates can get a rebound, etc. It's easy to see the team oriented stats and play.

In baseball it is a lot less clear cut. In fact most of what people talk about when it comes to making your teammates better in baseball is code for "leading with your mouth". Because if you talk about stats that are team oriented, Frank is always right there. He drives guys in, he takes walks, he scores runs, he hits sacrifice flies, etc. In fact year after year he is among the team leaders if not THE team leader in many team oriented stats.

So, it seems to me you are back to the same argument. You want Frank to be more mouthy in the locker room. Be more of a cheerleader. Now, given Frank's past history of inserting his foot in his mouth and desire not to be the vocal leader of the team, I can only ask one question, "Why do you want this?" Isn't it better to have leaders who actively WANT to be leaders? Aren't guys like Konerko (in all his mouthy glory) or Jose or even Carlos Lee be that vocal presence you desire.

If you continue to insist on getting angry when the square peg won't fit into your round hole, I refuse to be sympathetic, but I do promise to be here to point out the fact that the peg is square and the hole is round every single time you or anyone else insists on trying. He doesn't have to rah rah, but he I want to see him do more helping guys out with their swings or other areas where he could someone improving. Talk baseball with everyone, get people talking so everyone can be on the same page.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I had not heard that. Was that this year?

Yes, it was. Valentin was absolutely awful hitting only left-handed. Having said that, I agree that Jose needs to keep his mouth shut.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Frank isn't a leader, though. It's not in his personality. He has never asked or claimed to be the leader of the Chicago White Sox. Now that I think of it, Magglio Ordonez hasn't, either. I wonder how long it will take before people complain about his lack of leadership.

Some people just aren't cut out to lead. Let me ask you this: should the person with the highest IQ in the United States become the next President? I don't think so. Why? Because he or she may not be right person for the job. The difference is that Maggs isn't publicly having issues with teammates over the course of his career.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He doesn't have to rah rah, but he I want to see him do more helping guys out with their swings or other areas where he could someone improving. Talk baseball with everyone, get people talking so everyone can be on the same page.

You have active evidence that he doesn't do those things?

You have proof that when someone approaches Frank for help with their swing that he says, "no"?

You have proof that he won't offer advice on pitchers?

You just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks now?

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
You can't make yourself "the leader", no matter how hard you try.

Hey I just hit 800 posts. You're right it takes a solid effort over time, but that's what I want to see.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The difference is that Maggs isn't publicly having issues with teammates over the course of his career.

Can you name a single instance where the public phase of the argument/issue was initiated by Frank Thomas?

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
As a baseball fan, we always evaluate the kind of men/teammates people are. The same way we can judge Sosa to be a filthbucket and a piece of crap in the lockerroom when we don't know him or play with him, we can judge Frank, right?

I think we as Sox fans let some bias get in the way when judging Sammy. I mean granted he is a wife-beater, cheater, egomaniac who thinks of the Cubs clubhouse as "his house" and has quit donating money to charity when he found out that he didn't benifit from it. He secludes himself from the rest of the team and even at Cubs convention had to sign autographs in a seperate room away from the fans and other players. Other than that, he might not be a bad guy.

What has Frank done besides lead this team by example, had a few disagreements with teammates and been called out by others for not performing when it turns out he was playing hurt? So he hasn't returned a few phone calls. Instead he's working on getting in shape for the upcoming season. I don't see a problem with that. As far as I know, he has never demanded special treatment by management either...

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The difference is that Maggs isn't publicly having issues with teammates over the course of his career.

I may be wrong on this, and please feel free to point out if I am, but I never remember Thomas going after a teammate in the media - it's always the other way around.

Konerko has a problem with him.
Valentin has a problem with him.
Guillen has a problem with him.
Wells had a problem with him (torn tricep and all).

I don't remember Frank Thomas slamming anyone in the press.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's because everything he says (or doesn't say) and does is perceived in a negative way. His comments about trying to hit more homeruns are a perfect example. There are two ways to look at that comment.

1. He is selfish and only trying to drive up his personal stats.

2. He is tired of watching good pitches go by in an attempt to try to draw a walk or hit the ball the other way when he knows he has the ability to put the ball over the left-field wall. Which to me is a good idea when you have the DP kings hitting in the #4 and #5 spots right behind you...

Guess which way the media portrayed it?

Meanwhile, there is a guy on the northside of town who does nothing BUT swing for the fences every time up no matter what while striking out 100+ times a year. Yet he is regarded as a hero.

Tell me how that's fair.

Sammy chose to endear himself to the Fans and the media. Most of the media treats him extremely too nicely. We all know that. Frank chooses to not have anything to do with the media. He is a smart enough man to understand the ramifications of that. Is it fair? NO, OF COURSE NOT. But that's how life goes. You know that. There are people who put themselves in position to be treated easier than others.

I just don't understand why people try to portray Frank as a victim of the Frank-haters, the anti-Frank media and the anti-Frankers in management. Frank is a victim of nothing more than his own words and actions - or at times lack thereof.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You have active evidence that he doesn't do those things?

You have proof that when someone approaches Frank for help with their swing that he says, "no"?

You have proof that he won't offer advice on pitchers?

You just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks now? Why is it that every time I make an opinion, someone reverts back to proof. If we had proof on all these issues we wouldn't be debating. We can only debate with the information we have. If something came out that Frank was the best guy in the club house and there certainly is no problem whatsoever, I would be estatic. And besides, I don't want people to have to approach Frank, I want him to approach them.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Frank Thomas's behavior a couple of years ago concerning David Wells's accusations was nothing less than remarkable. I have nothing but respect for this guy after that (coupled with Reinsdorf's pulling the trigger on the Diminished Skills Clause).

In my mind, leadership comes from the bottom up. A leader is only as powerful as though who follow him allow him to be. Could Frank Thomas be the leader of this team? Certainly - if they all chose to follow him. The point is that a lot of players - evidently - choose not to follow his lead.

I agree. There are too many egos on this team. I am reminded of a Joe Crowley column written just prior to the start of the 2002 second half. He talked about how a number of players (other than Frank) were "marching to the beat of their own drum." He specifically mentioned Royce Clayton and Ray Durham amongst this group. Nowhere in the article did he talk about Thomas doing the same.

People want to blame Frank for not being a leader. Fine. But a leader can only lead those who choose to follow him. If the rest of the team doesn't want to fall in line behind Frank, that's not his fault. Baseball players aren't mindless zombies. They make decisions just like the rest of us. If Paul Konerko and Jose Valentin don't know enough to follow Thomas' lead, then that's their problem. The game of baseball has been forever changed by the presence of Frank Thomas. Konerko and Valentin aren't anything special. The sooner those two realize that and keep their mouths shut, the sooner the Sox can focus on baseball, rather than clubhouse politics.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I had not heard that. Was that this year? Ya, he hit .115 as a lefty only.

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Ya, he hit .115 as a lefty only.

What do you want for $5 million?

WHAT A WASTE.

Mickster
02-20-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If you continue to insist on getting angry when the square peg won't fit into your round hole, I refuse to be sympathetic, but I do promise to be here to point out the fact that the peg is square and the hole is round every single time you or anyone else insists on trying.

Way to go voodoo! Put it into terms that they can understand! :D:

alohafri
02-20-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If we don't fair value for him, I keep him and risk the consequences. He isn't going hit poorly because he's mad, unless he's distracted or something, because he has personal goals to accomplish. If anything, he would be a bad club house presence, but I believe it would be limited to an isolated few- most notably Guillen and Valentin. But I'm willing to risk it in order to get fair value. If it becomes a major problem and becomes clear we have to trade him, his value will certainly drop, but I would rather wait for that to be the case than to just trade him for under value right now. Besides there is the chance that they let bygones be bygones after meeting face to face. I wouldn't give up that easily. However, if we did get something considered fair value, then maybe it would be better to pull the trigger in order to retain clubhouse discipline, and pitching.

As long as Kenny is running the show, we don't get fair market value for anybody!

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I think you're going to be dissapointed then. Frank Thomas is not a leader. He never has been, and he never will be. It's just not his personality.

Scottie Pippen isn't a leader, either, yet he has never faced the amount of criticism for his mistakes that Thomas has. Granted, Pippen had Jordan around to shield him from much the negative things that were being said about the Bulls, but even during the year-and-half that Jordan was retired (the first time), Pippen was treated extremely well by the Chicago media. The only time he was harshly criticized was when he sat on the bench and sulked while Toni Kukoc beat the Knicks with buzzer-beating jumper. And that criticism was deserved.

I don't buy that comparison. First off, You really don't hear much negative about Frank while we are winning, do you? While Pippen was here the first time, the Bulls were always winning so nobody complained. They didn't lose until after he left. Pippen was the team leader in Houston and got good feedback. He struggled in Portland cuz of the cast of thugs around him - and his age/injuries. Comparing the returned Pippen is not fair either because he is now a shell of what he once was.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I may be wrong on this, and please feel free to point out if I am, but I never remember Thomas going after a teammate in the media - it's always the other way around.

Konerko has a problem with him.
Valentin has a problem with him.
Guillen has a problem with him.
Wells had a problem with him (torn tricep and all).

I don't remember Frank Thomas slamming anyone in the press. He did with Konerko.

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
You need to get over that. Just because a player is the best player on the team, doesn't make him the leader. Konerko and Jose have been perceived as team leaders, and neither one of them is close to being the best player on the team.

Leadership has little to do with performance. And having the ability to be a leader doesn't mean that a person has the desire to be a leader.

Bottom line is, why is it important to you that Frank be the leader? In my book, its only important that the team have leadership, no matter where it's coming from.

It is important to me because players look up to the best player on the team and take cues from him.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Why is it that every time I make an opinion, someone reverts back to proof. If we had proof on all these issues we wouldn't be debating. We can only debate with the information we have. If something came out that Frank was the best guy in the club house and there certainly is no problem whatsoever, I would be estatic. And besides, I don't want people to have to approach Frank, I want him to approach them.

Well, these aren't opinion statements.

Opinion: I think Frank is great.

Fact (T/F): Frank doesn't help his teammates with their swing or talk about the pitchers with them.

See the difference? You want to post verifiable facts as opinion, then you are going to get slammed, every time. You cannot have it any other way, period. At least not from me.

It is okay for you to want more from Frank, but when you start making statements to prove he isn't doing enough without any evidence to back it up, then that's just flat wrong.

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He did with Konerko.

Was it as a response, or did he initiate it?

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He did with Konerko.

AFTER Konerko mouthed off to the press.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Was it as a response, or did he initiate it?

Konerko started it, no question. It was when he was happy because he could actually hit the baseball and his home run swing was actually working. He got pumped and ripped on Frank when Frank was still recovering from the tricept injury in July 2002.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
There's no definitive style of leadership. Any style can be effective. Frank doesn't have to yell, he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want. Helping Konerko with his swing, that is showing leadership, being the bigger man, despite what happened before, for the good of the team. That's what I'm talking about, more of that.

Personally, this is the first time I'd heard of this. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because the media doesn't print stuff like this when it happens? They instead like to paint a picture of Frank in a terrible light leading to all the Frank-hating we have today. Amazingly they choose to do the exact opposite with Sosa. Quit assuming Frank isn't a good teammate/leader when you're not there to see everything that happens first-hand and the people that are don't say anything about it.

When people who do know him personally speak up (Steff) and you still don't believe them, I guess there's no help for you then...

KingXerxes
02-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
AFTER Konerko mouthed off to the press.

That's how I remember it as well.

Deadguy
02-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Frank chooses to not have anything to do with the media. He is a smart enough man to understand the ramifications of that. Is it fair?

What in the world are you talking about? Are you confusing Thomas with Eddie Murray?

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040126&content_id=630834&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

While the White Sox were in the stretch drive of the 2003 season, battling Minnesota and Kansas City for the Central Division title, there were some late home games where Thomas would speak to the media four different times -- one session with some early-going television crews, one before batting practice, one after batting practice for anything or anyone that slipped through the cracks and then usually one after the game. Thomas rarely turned down a request, not to mention meeting with dignitaries who might be singing the National Anthem or throwing out the first pitch on that particular day.

In this day and age of Internet content, radio freelancers who specifically get paid to get a sound bite from the teamís top player and the usual local television stations and daily newspapers, such is the plague upon the teamís top player. Thatís still Thomasí position on the White Sox.

ďFrank gets hassled (by the media) all year long, so you canít blame him for wanting some time to himself during the offseason,Ē White Sox outfielder Aaron Rowand, who also lives in Las Vegas, said of Thomas.

ďThis is a guy who has been in the league for a long time and heís a pro athlete, so Frank is responsible for getting Frank up. I donít think anyone else should have to take a position of trying to fire him up.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He did with Konerko.

No, he didn't. Konerko started it by calling him out during an interview. The only time Thomas commented publicly on the issue was last spring, when he said that he was dissapointed that the media kept bringing it up. He never once ripped into Konerko because of what happened, nor did he say anything negative about Paul when he was hitting .185 in late June.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well, these aren't opinion statements.

Opinion: I think Frank is great.

Fact (T/F): Frank doesn't help his teammates with their swing or talk about the pitchers with them.

See the difference? You want to post verifiable facts as opinion, then you are going to get slammed, every time. You cannot have it any other way, period. At least not from me.

It is okay for you to want more from Frank, but when you start making statements to prove he isn't doing enough without any evidence to back it up, then that's just flat wrong. Well if facts are important to you, make sure you have yours right. I never said Frank doesn't help these guys when approached or whatever, I said I would like to see more of it.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
No, he didn't. Konerko started it by calling him out during an interview. The only time Thomas commented publicly on the issue was last spring, when he said that he was dissapointed that the media kept bringing it up. He never once ripped into Konerko because of what happened, nor did he say anything negative about Paul when he was hitting .185 in late June.

There's the problem. See if Frank were truly a team leader, and the best teammate he could be, he would have publicly leveled Paulie last year to cause Konerko would work harder. Then everyone here would surely be singing Frank's praises...

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:40 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

VC edit: I think that is what you are looking for... :D:

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
No, he didn't. Konerko started it by calling him out during an interview. The only time Thomas commented publicly on the issue was last spring, when he said that he was dissapointed that the media kept bringing it up. He never once ripped into Konerko because of what happened, nor did he say anything negative about Paul when he was hitting .185 in late June. Well that certainly is something that Konerko regretably initiated in the public sense, but they were obviously having problems behind closed doors. Does anyone know why or how it came about in the first place?

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well if facts are important to you, make sure you have yours right. I never said Frank doesn't help these guys when approached or whatever, I said I would like to see more of it.

Yet you have NO evidence of how often it happens. How can you insist on more when you don't know that basic fact? For all you know, Frank constantly gets in guys faces about their swings and the opposing pitchers and that is why his teammates like to talk bad about him because he is too damned vocal...

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
There's the problem. See if Frank were truly a team leader, and the best teammate he could be, he would have publicly leveled Paulie last year to cause Konerko would work harder. Then everyone here would surely be singing Frank's praises... That was certainly admirable of Frank and a leadership quality many of us are looking for. Why is it too demanding or selfish of me to want to see more of that?

Kittle
02-20-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Frank Thomas's behavior a couple of years ago concerning David Wells's accusations was nothing less than remarkable. I have nothing but respect for this guy after that (coupled with Reinsdorf's pulling the trigger on the Diminished Skills Clause).


Excellent points. That fat bastard Wells is damn lucky that Frank didn't kick the crap out of him. I sure would have.

And, speaking of Wells, there's your example of a selfish player who doesn't care about anybody but himself.

Coming back to the Wells incident, let's also not forget that Frank plays hurt. Remember the injured foot a few years ago? I recall a doctor being quoted as saying that he was amazed that Frank could walk on it, much less play on it.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That was certainly admirable of Frank and a leadership quality many of us are looking for. Why is it too demanding or selfish of me to want to see more of that?

You must have misunderstood my teal. I think that would be an absolutely horrible idea...

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yet you have NO evidence of how often it happens. How can you insist on more when you don't know that basic fact? For all you know, Frank constantly gets in guys faces about their swings and the opposing pitchers and that is why his teammates like to talk bad about him because he is too damned vocal... It is known he is more reserved than overly vocal. That is the image his teammates imply, and that's all we have to go on unless someone busts out some facts.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Well that certainly is something that Konerko regretably initiated in the public sense, but they were obviously having problems behind closed doors. Does anyone know why or how it came about in the first place?

Thinking about what happened that weekened, I actually blame Jerry Manuel for the entire mess. He was the one who stood by and did nothing when Konerko made those comments. He was also the dolt who didn't bother to tell Thomas that he was going to bench him for the weekend series with the Indians. Worst of all, Manuel waited for Kenny Williams to intervene before he tried to diffuse the situation. "The Tinkerer" must have been sleeping the whole time.

I don't think Thomas and Konerko were having problems behind the scenes. What I do think is that the situation was handled poorly by everyone involved, except Frank. Through everything, he was the one who kept quiet while everybody else took turns trashing him in front of the media.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You must have misunderstood my teal. I think that would be an absolutely horrible idea... I did understand it, I was referring that he was reserved, demonstrating leadership.

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Thinking about what happened that weekened, I actually blame Jerry Manuel for the entire mess. He was the one who stood by and did nothing when Konerko made those comments. He was also the dolt who didn't bother to tell Thomas that he was going to bench him for the weekend series with the Indians. Worst of all, Manuel waited for Kenny Williams to intervene before he tried to diffuse the situation. "The Tinkerer" must have been sleeping the whole time.

I don't think Thomas and Konerko were having problems behind the scenes. What I do think is that the situation was handled poorly by everyone involved, except Frank. Through everything, he was the one who kept quiet while everybody else took turns trashing him in front of the media. Another reason I think Guillen is a good fit. He will be talking to everyone, getting things out in the open before they have a chance to escalate. He certainly isn't going to wait for someone else to intervene.

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It is known he is more reserved than overly vocal. That is the image his teammates imply, and that's all we have to go on unless someone busts out some facts.

Fine, but you still don't really know what goes on in the locker room and you are making stuff up and making HUGE assumptions. I for the most part think you are correct that Frank isn't an in your face teammate. I think that is okay and that is where we disagree...

Still, your use of hyperbole and "opinions" presented as facts make you case less likely to convince me of the truth of what you say...

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:52 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

This thing doesn't have a tag yet?

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

This thing doesn't have a tag yet?

No, I forgot to forward it to West and I have been too busy recently...

SEALgep
02-20-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Fine, but you still don't really know what goes on in the locker room and you are making stuff up and making HUGE assumptions. I for the most part think you are correct that Frank isn't an in your face teammate. I think that is okay and that is where we disagree...

Still, your use of hyperbole and "opinions" presented as facts make you case less likely to convince me of the truth of what you say... We're all making assumptions because no one knows the exact truth, despite who we know in the organization. We don't disagree about Frank being an in your face teammate, unless you mean me when I said he should initiate more baseball talk with the guys. Maybe he does, I hope he does and I'm wrong. If he does though, I don't know why some of the mates imply that he doesn't, unless I'm misinterpreting, which could be the case. If he is already doing what I expect of him, we should be a winning club with little to no bs in the club house. That's all I want. No distractions, just playing hard, having fun, and winning.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
VC edit: I think that is what you are looking for... :D:

I accidently hit "submit reply" instead of "preview" while I was looking for it. I eventually found it but I guess I can delete that post now...

:)

jabrch
02-20-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Another reason I think Guillen is a good fit. He will be talking to everyone, getting things out in the open before they have a chance to escalate. He certainly isn't going to wait for someone else to intervene.


Should that have been in teal? There are many here who 100% believe that Guillen will BRING them out into the open and ESCALATE things on his own - rather than wait for the players to do it.

I don't have a problem with Ozzie yet - I want to see how he handles it once we get into the season.

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, I forgot to forward it to West and I have been too busy recently...

Understandable. No big rush. At least now I know how to post it...

:cool:

Iwritecode
02-20-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Should that have been in teal? There are many here who 100% believe that Guillen will BRING them out into the open and ESCALATE things on his own - rather than wait for the players to do it.

I don't have a problem with Ozzie yet - I want to see how he handles it once we get into the season.

I think he meant out in the open within the team instead of Paulie going to the media first instead of Frank.

Although you are right in that Ozzie may make a few things public that shouldn't be...

voodoochile
02-20-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
We're all making assumptions because no one knows the exact truth, despite who we know in the organization. We don't disagree about Frank being an in your face teammate, unless you mean me when I said he should initiate more baseball talk with the guys. Maybe he does, I hope he does and I'm wrong. If he does though, I don't know why some of the mates imply that he doesn't, unless I'm misinterpreting, which could be the case. If he is already doing what I expect of him, we should be a winning club with little to no bs in the club house. That's all I want. No distractions, just playing hard, having fun, and winning.

Then please stop poking Frank Thomas. I mean come on. Everyone knows Frank is a better player/teammate when people just leave him alone. I mean right? Hasn't that been proven by now?

So instead of trying to let that happen and just letting the season develop, we are building up this huge issue and making it into something more likely to create a distraction down the road. If the players and coaches and fans will just shut up and let Frank be Frank, maybe it could be a fun season on the south side. But, part of that fun is going to come from winning and the offense is going to be crucial to the team's ability to win and Frank is right about one simple fact: as he goes offensively, so goes the team. It's just that simple and even more so this year with no Everett and no one knowing what to expect from Konerko. So, maybe it would be in everyone's best interest if people stopped jabbing at Frank. I mean, what the heck the other way's been beaten to death. How about a little love for the big man? Maybe he will use that mighty bat to show us all how much he loves us back...

jabrch
02-20-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I think he meant out in the open within the team instead of Paulie going to the media first instead of Frank.

Although you are right in that Ozzie may make a few things public that shouldn't be...

I will give him the benefit of the doubt as manager until after he manages for a bit. Granted his start hasn't been all that impressive...