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Lip Man 1
02-13-2004, 02:09 PM
Folks:

Here is the information that I received. For informational purposes and discussion:

"There is sure alot of "stuff' going on about Jay Marriotti getting that midday show.

What people dont understand is that WMVP WANTS to piss off Reinsdorf. They are bleeding red ink big time, due to the Sox-Bulls contract signed in 1995 by Jim DeCastro. They overpaid Jerry to such an extent that even if every commercial spot on Sox Radio sells out at regular rate for the entire season, they CAN'T break even much less make money. DeCastro was so anxious to get the Bulls back(after losing them in 1991 to WMAQ) that he was walking around muttering 'I'm gonna get them (Bulls) back, no matter what it costs,or whom it effects'.

He got them OK and that's why they formed WMVP. Not to compete with the Score, but to lure Reinsdorf. Then, once they overpaid him and locked them into 5 years with a 5 year option(Reisndorf's option of course), they dumped the WMVP all sports format and got rid of some 40 people.

Guys like Dave Wills, Dave Juday, Bruce Levine and Management types like Tom Saratella, have survived all along and are all still there.


When ESPN was negotiating to buy the Station from DeCastro's Company, the Disney folks looked at the Sox contract and realized that Jerry had them by the balls. He even had the right to approve or disapprove on the air talent-even if they had nothing to do with the the Sox or Bulls. ESPN tried to negotiate with Jerry to bring the rights fees down a bit and offered to do other things for him in return. He took a huge puff out of the cigar he was smoking and said "guess you guys aren't getting this station!". He of course also had the right to block the sale to anyone he didn't want to buy it from DeCastro.

So by putting Marriotti on, and also by putting on a Cubs weekly show last year, they intentionaly pissed off Reinsdorf. Jerry called Bob Snyder( the WMVP GM) last July and asked him "what the hell is a Cubs show doing on my station?" Snyder stood up to him and said "It's not YOUR Station, we are in a partnership with you. The contract we have with you is killing us so we are simply doing something to help offset those fees".

In other words, it was like saying, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT,TAKE YOU BALL AND GO HOME!. Of course, Jerry isn't about to bail on a contract that runs thru next season with the Sox and 2 more years with the Bulls at an excessive price!

This Mariotti thing is another attempt to try and get Jerry to bail. Problem is, Jerry has nowhere to go. The Bears are the only team(other than the Cubs who will be on WGN untill the year 6000 at least) that can dictate things since they are in big time demand. The Sox, Bulls and Hawks right now are not in that shape.The Blackhawks PAY the Score to have their games on there. The Bulls and Sox would be in a better barginning power that that, but not what they were in 1994-95 when the Sox were still drawing well in a new Park and were a contender, and you had a goof like DeCastro who was doing things out of ego!"

Perhaps this will help explain some things.

Lip

poorme
02-13-2004, 02:14 PM
I guess what I'm interested in is what this means for us. Any idea how much he makes/year on the Sox radio deal? Any cuts in that will come right out of the payroll. We'll probably end up like Montreal and not have a radio broadcast at all.

rahulsekhar
02-13-2004, 02:15 PM
I am very curious because if the Bulls start to improve in the 2d half, that puts MVP in an interesting position (again). Do they hold the line? Or do they continue to piss off JR at the risk of losing the Bulls (the underlying assumption is that if/when the young talent on the Bulls starts to take off, there will b a HUGE upswing in fan interest due to the long wait and the growing pains we've all observed).

The timing might work out well for JR in terms of things improving on the Bulls side as they go into a negotiation. It will be interesting to see about how it plays out.

CubKilla
02-13-2004, 02:16 PM
If JR wants to silence Moronotti all he has to do is go out and become an owner worthy of owning a baseball team in the City of Chicago. Sitting by idly and resigning none of our FA's or FA's from other franchises after an increase in attendance and the Cubs run to the '03 NLCS and Moronotti isn't going to be the only sportswriter in Chicago crying foul.

JR..... you made your bed. Now sleep in it.

CubKilla
02-13-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Any idea how much he makes/year on the Sox radio deal? Any cuts in that will come right out of the payroll.

JR can hem-and-haw all he wants but under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is that cheap piece of garbage going to part with one dime owed to him.

joecrede
02-13-2004, 02:19 PM
If Comcast buys Disney the Sox/Bulls radio rights won't be going anywhere. Mariotti on the other hand ... :D:

rahulsekhar
02-13-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
If JR wants to silence Moronotti all he has to do is go out and become an owner worthy of owning a baseball team in the City of Chicago. Sitting by idly and resigning none of our FA's or FA's from other franchises after an increase in attendance and the Cubs run to the '03 NLCS and Moronotti isn't going to be the only sportswriter in Chicago crying foul.

JR..... you made your bed. Now sleep in it.

Fine - I agree that this offseason they haven't made the moves we'd all have liked them to. But in general, they have made moves every year that have positioned themselves to win - they just haven't gotten it done. Everything from David Wells to Todd Ritchie (even though it was a bad deal - can't fault the intent, just the execution) to Colon and Everett/Alomar. Go back to signing Navarro & Belle. From an ownership perspective, they've been willing to go get what they needed to.

Now this offseason, they didn't do what we wanted. But they attempted to resign Alomar (and he ended up getting less than they offered) & Colon (and he got a significantly greater offer that many in baseball question the wisdom of). But you'll never hear that from Marriotti-types (back to the initial impetus for this thread). They'll only say the Sox were too cheap to sign guys like Robbie despite having had the highest offer he got. Same for Graffanino despite his leaving so he could get more PT, not because of $$$$.

lowesox
02-13-2004, 02:40 PM
This is all great news. It'll mean Jerry loses money - which is a step in the right direction of getting him to sell the team.

CubKilla
02-13-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by rahulsekhar
Fine - I agree that this offseason they haven't made the moves we'd all have liked them to. But in general, they have made moves every year that have positioned themselves to win - they just haven't gotten it done. Everything from David Wells to Todd Ritchie (even though it was a bad deal - can't fault the intent, just the execution) to Colon and Everett/Alomar. Go back to signing Navarro & Belle. From an ownership perspective, they've been willing to go get what they needed to.

I disagree. Signing a big name from time-to-time? Yeah..... the Sox have done that. But the move in and of itself is never enough to put the White Sox over the hump to serious WS contention.

But there is a serious problem with one of the moves you note. Everett/Alomar? Only got them because NYM and TEX agreed to pay their salary for the '03 season. If we have to trade the same players AND pay the rest of their salary? IMHO, those moves don't happen. And Navarro? Schueler signed him over Roger Clemens. Where would THAT money have been better off spent?

mac9001
02-13-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
If Comcast buys Disney the Sox/Bulls radio rights won't be going anywhere. Mariotti on the other hand ... :D:

Which brings me to the question of why doesn't Jerry just create his own radio station (like the TV deal)?

CubKilla
02-13-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by mac9001
Which brings me to the question of why doesn't Jerry just create his own radio station (like the TV deal)?

:reinsy

"Got a cool million you can loan me that I have to pay back only if the ratings average above 750,000 listeners a broadcast?"

voodoochile
02-13-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This is all great news. It'll mean Jerry loses money - which is a step in the right direction of getting him to sell the team.

:reinsy
"you guys kill me... Sell? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Why would I sell? I am making money hand over fist, have a sweetheart lease and have no payroll floor. Get ready for "The Kids Can Play, Part IX". Kenny, you have to get the payroll down to $45M next season and $35M by the 2005. After all, the CBA will be up for negotiation in 2006 and I can't have ANY contracts on the books after that season ends..."

:KW
"Right, Boss. I'll get right on that."

rahulsekhar
02-13-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I disagree. Signing a big name from time-to-time? Yeah..... the Sox have done that. But the move in and of itself is never enough to put the White Sox over the hump to serious WS contention.

But there is a serious problem with one of the moves you note. Everett/Alomar? Only got them because NYM and TEX agreed to pay their salary for the '03 season. If we have to trade the same players AND pay the rest of their salary? IMHO, those moves don't happen. And Navarro? Schueler signed him over Roger Clemens. Where would THAT money have been better off spent?

OK, speculation about whether or not they would have done the deal if they had to assume salary gets us nowhere. Personally, I love deals that get us talent and don't cost anything. If those are out there - go for it!

And you missed the point I was making on Navarro. Everyone knows he sucked (and still does). But you can't blame ownership for that - they ponied up the required cash. That was the original point. No one would argue that the execution's been perfect - not with Todd Ritchie, Royce Clayton, & Navarro on the record. But those aren't ownership issues (unless you want to say that he should have fired the GM because of those moves).

Grobber33
02-13-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I guess what I'm interested in is what this means for us. Any idea how much he makes/year on the Sox radio deal? Any cuts in that will come right out of the payroll. We'll probably end up like Montreal and not have a radio broadcast at all.


The Expos have been back on the Radio(English)the past two years and will be on again in 2004 up there.

SEALgep
02-13-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

Here is the information that I received. For informational purposes and discussion:

"There is sure alot of "stuff' going on about Jay Marriotti getting that midday show.

What people dont understand is that WMVP WANTS to piss off Reinsdorf. They are bleeding red ink big time, due to the Sox-Bulls contract signed in 1995 by Jim DeCastro. They overpaid Jerry to such an extent that even if every commercial spot on Sox Radio sells out at regular rate for the entire season, they CAN'T break even much less make money. DeCastro was so anxious to get the Bulls back(after losing them in 1991 to WMAQ) that he was walking around muttering 'I'm gonna get them (Bulls) back, no matter what it costs,or whom it effects'.

He got them OK and that's why they formed WMVP. Not to compete with the Score, but to lure Reinsdorf. Then, once they overpaid him and locked them into 5 years with a 5 year option(Reisndorf's option of course), they dumped the WMVP all sports format and got rid of some 40 people.

Guys like Dave Wills, Dave Juday, Bruce Levine and Management types like Tom Saratella, have survived all along and are all still there.


When ESPN was negotiating to buy the Station from DeCastro's Company, the Disney folks looked at the Sox contract and realized that Jerry had them by the balls. He even had the right to approve or disapprove on the air talent-even if they had nothing to do with the the Sox or Bulls. ESPN tried to negotiate with Jerry to bring the rights fees down a bit and offered to do other things for him in return. He took a huge puff out of the cigar he was smoking and said "guess you guys aren't getting this station!". He of course also had the right to block the sale to anyone he didn't want to buy it from DeCastro.

So by putting Marriotti on, and also by putting on a Cubs weekly show last year, they intentionaly pissed off Reinsdorf. Jerry called Bob Snyder( the WMVP GM) last July and asked him "what the hell is a Cubs show doing on my station?" Snyder stood up to him and said "It's not YOUR Station, we are in a partnership with you. The contract we have with you is killing us so we are simply doing something to help offset those fees".

In other words, it was like saying, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT,TAKE YOU BALL AND GO HOME!. Of course, Jerry isn't about to bail on a contract that runs thru next season with the Sox and 2 more years with the Bulls at an excessive price!

This Mariotti thing is another attempt to try and get Jerry to bail. Problem is, Jerry has nowhere to go. The Bears are the only team(other than the Cubs who will be on WGN untill the year 6000 at least) that can dictate things since they are in big time demand. The Sox, Bulls and Hawks right now are not in that shape.The Blackhawks PAY the Score to have their games on there. The Bulls and Sox would be in a better barginning power that that, but not what they were in 1994-95 when the Sox were still drawing well in a new Park and were a contender, and you had a goof like DeCastro who was doing things out of ego!"

Perhaps this will help explain some things.

Lip I don't get it. Is this so supposed to make us feel sorry for them, because they have poor negotiating skills? So they feel they got screwed, so what. They agreed to it. So would you rather JR say you guys are right, and let them keep the money? That's why they sign contracts, to protect their interests. If we were winning more NBA championships and won a World Series, would we demand more money from the station? No, because the deal is under contract. Geez, this isn't a complicated matter. And if JR did let them off the hook, how would you suggest we replace that 7 million a year? Just cut the payroll by 7 million? They can hire Mariotti and try to piss JR off, that's fine. Thta doesn't mean JR is stupid enough to say goodbye to the 7 million a year.

rahulsekhar
02-13-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't get it. Is this so supposed to make us feel sorry for them, because they have poor negotiating skills? So they feel they got screwed, so what. They agreed to it. So would you rather JR say you guys are right, and let them keep the money? That's why they sign contracts, to protect their interests. If we were winning more NBA championships and won a World Series, would we demand more money from the station? No, because the deal is under contract. Geez, this isn't a complicated matter. And if JR did let them off the hook, how would you suggest we replace that 7 million a year? Just cut the payroll by 7 million? They can hire Mariotti and try to piss JR off, that's fine. Thta doesn't mean JR is stupid enough to say goodbye to the 7 million a year.

Well put. I love how when players hold out because they've outperformed their contracts - owners are being cheap. But when players underperform - owners are idiots for overpaying. Fans need to be a bit smarter than that. As Sox fans, I'd think we'd be in favor of the Sox getting every bit of $$$ they could so that they can pay more salaries. And frankly, I think MVP's stance is pretty stupid - the more Mariotti pisses people off about the Sox, the fewer will listen and the more money they'll lose. That doesn't mean they should shill for the team, but having a guy who actively attacks them witout any real factual basis is not a smart decision.

poorme
02-13-2004, 03:34 PM
Mariotti's hung around for 12 years so he must be making somebody some money.

joecrede
02-13-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Mariotti's hung around for 12 years so he must be making somebody some money.

Or he belongs to a pretty good union.

rahulsekhar
02-13-2004, 03:49 PM
Rabblerousing isn't hard. The National Enquirer's been around a long time too, and has about the same journalistic integrity.

pudge
02-13-2004, 05:18 PM
Nobody buys the rights to a sports team to make huge money on the broadcast of the games... the reason you buy sports for your station, whether it's TV or radio, is to boost the numbers for the rest of your programming. Sports makes you legitmate and also gives you a huge audience to promote the rest of your station...

So, maybe WMVP's format has changed and it no longer makes sense to have the Bulls and Sox, but I guarantee you it made sense back then.

But what does WMVP do with the great lead-ins of Bulls and Sox games? They put Cub shows on the air and launch the Mariotti show, who's a Cub-lover/Sox-basher.

So in essence, JR is right. He's probably thinking, "*** are these guys doing? Not only are they hurting my product, they're hurting their own product."

The reality, WMVP's landscape has changed, their ownership has changed, and now they want to get out of it. It still doesn't make much sense to piss off JR, because he's certainly not going to LEAVE the station unless he gets a better offer.

The "Colon comment" is nice and cute, but the Sox DID make an offer, and lost Colon to a ridiculously higher offer.

Lip Man 1
02-13-2004, 05:21 PM
Pudge says: 'but the Sox DID make an offer.'

Exactly they made him an offer. An offer that it turned out was loaded with incentives, had deferred money (without interest like with Alomar?) and was for three years.

Sounds like an offer just to make an offer don't you think?

Lip

poorme
02-13-2004, 06:48 PM
well, not to get on that debate again, but they could have signed somebody else with the money colon turned down.

voodoochile
02-13-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by poorme
well, not to get on that debate again, but they could have signed somebody else with the money colon turned down.

They signed two people - Buehrle and Lee. The fact that they were Sox property regardless for the next 3 years notwithstanding...

Jerry_Manuel
02-13-2004, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They signed two people - Buehrle and Lee. The fact that they were Sox property regardless for the next 3 years notwithstanding...

Right, plus Joe Cowley wrote a few weeks back that had Colon been signed than one of the bats would've been moved.

gosox41
02-14-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
This is all great news. It'll mean Jerry loses money - which is a step in the right direction of getting him to sell the team.

Or gives him an excuse to have a low payroll.

JR isn't getting out any time soon based on what I hear.

Bob

gosox41
02-14-2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Pudge says: 'but the Sox DID make an offer.'

Exactly they made him an offer. An offer that it turned out was loaded with incentives, had deferred money (without interest like with Alomar?) and was for three years.

Sounds like an offer just to make an offer don't you think?

Lip

I think the Colon offer was more then fair. I don't see Colon being anywhere near the pitcher he is today in 3-4 years. Of course this is my favorite thing about baseball is to analye players. I'm making a prediction. Lip, do you think Colon is going to be a healthy, productive pitcher in in 3 yaers. Of course neither one of us are going to know for sure, but call it a feeling on my part. And if Colon did get majorly injured, would you be the first in line to blame the Sox for signing an overweight pitcher with a ton of miles who has had more and more "dead arm" periods the last 2 years? I think I know the answer even if you won't admit it.

So why pay for for it? If the Sox did sign Colon and won the division in 2004 but early in '05 Colon blew out his arm and the team fell apart the fans would stop coming out. Once that happened the team would move a productive player so they can continue to pay the unproductive player's salary.

Bob

duke of dorwood
02-14-2004, 08:39 AM
Sox "offers" are always going to be easily beaten. Thats the plan folks.

Remember the WTAQ in La Grange days? Where else is he gonna go?

voodoochile
02-14-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think the Colon offer was more then fair. I don't see Colon being anywhere near the pitcher he is today in 3-4 years. Of course this is my favorite thing about baseball is to analye players. I'm making a prediction. Lip, do you think Colon is going to be a healthy, productive pitcher in in 3 yaers. Of course neither one of us are going to know for sure, but call it a feeling on my part. And if Colon did get majorly injured, would you be the first in line to blame the Sox for signing an overweight pitcher with a ton of miles who has had more and more "dead arm" periods the last 2 years? I think I know the answer even if you won't admit it.

So why pay for for it? If the Sox did sign Colon and won the division in 2004 but early in '05 Colon blew out his arm and the team fell apart the fans would stop coming out. Once that happened the team would move a productive player so they can continue to pay the unproductive player's salary.

Bob

This is exactly why the Sox will never win a championship under JR. Because they are unwilling to take a risk for two years that might hurt them 3 years from now. Every contract has to make sense all the way through.

Some questions for you...

1)If the Sox had brought back that same team from last year intact for the next 3 years do you think they would make the playoffs over that stretch of time? (I think they would have made it at least twice)

2)Would they stand a chance at winning a pennant? (Yes, I do and that might have been as soon as this year, even if they only signed Everett and Colon).

3)How do you compare those odds with the current team's odds of doing the same thing? (I think the current team is going to struggle to win the division barring a major pitching or CF/2B/LOH acquisition. I would give the team a 50% chance compared to last years team to make the playoffs (all of that because the division is so bad) and a 10% chance to advance.)

To summarize my point, I am tired of worrying about how a contract MIGHT hurt the Sox 3-4 years from now when the player in question might be the difference between winning a pennant and not even making the playoffs these next 2 years. You cannot win if you are unwilling to risk...

Lip Man 1
02-14-2004, 01:00 PM
Voodoo:

Excellent points. What Bob's approach is basically to take the strictest interpretation of a business-like approach.

With respect Bob it's that type of business attitude that has brought the Sox to the brink of total irrelevence in their own home market, let alone on a national basis.

After 23 years of 'limited' success both on and off the field, might it not be time for an attitude adjustment? (or new ownership?)

And Bob the problem is that there will always be a team out there who IS willing to 'the the risk...' leaving the Sox always standing at the train station while the other teams get the talent. You have to admit the Sox farm system hasn't been able to produce in quanity the talent needed to beat that handicap (in fact no farm system anywehere could!)

Lip

gosox41
02-14-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Voodoo:

Excellent points. What Bob's approach is basically to take the strictest interpretation of a business-like approach.

With respect Bob it's that type of business attitude that has brought the Sox to the brink of total irrelevence in their own home market, let alone on a national basis.

After 23 years of 'limited' success both on and off the field, might it not be time for an attitude adjustment? (or new ownership?)

And Bob the problem is that there will always be a team out there who IS willing to 'the the risk...' leaving the Sox always standing at the train station while the other teams get the talent. You have to admit the Sox farm system hasn't been able to produce in quanity the talent needed to beat that handicap (in fact no farm system anywehere could!)

Lip

So let's see how the Angels and COlondo over the next couple of years. They spent a ton of money so we should see some major results, right?

Bob

gosox41
02-14-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is exactly why the Sox will never win a championship under JR. Because they are unwilling to take a risk for two years that might hurt them 3 years from now. Every contract has to make sense all the way through.

Some questions for you...

1)If the Sox had brought back that same team from last year intact for the next 3 years do you think they would make the playoffs over that stretch of time? (I think they would have made it at least twice)

2)Would they stand a chance at winning a pennant? (Yes, I do and that might have been as soon as this year, even if they only signed Everett and Colon).

3)How do you compare those odds with the current team's odds of doing the same thing? (I think the current team is going to struggle to win the division barring a major pitching or CF/2B/LOH acquisition. I would give the team a 50% chance compared to last years team to make the playoffs (all of that because the division is so bad) and a 10% chance to advance.)

To summarize my point, I am tired of worrying about how a contract MIGHT hurt the Sox 3-4 years from now when the player in question might be the difference between winning a pennant and not even making the playoffs these next 2 years. You cannot win if you are unwilling to risk...

1. If the SOx brought back the same team as last year the odds would be better then the current version of this years team that they would make the playoffs. But not as great as you think. These guys couldn't get it done last year and choked big time. I think 2 times in 3 years is pushing it because I think age and inuries would catch up to some of htese guys including COlon. But I'd feel more optimistic for the 2004 team.

2. Maybe. Colon and Buehrle versus Pedro and Schilling in a short series isn't the best odds, but anything can happen in a short series.

3. See number one. Everyone thought last year's team was a cinch. And look what happened. But come late '05 and '06 I think Colon won't be the same pitcher. AS much as Manuel hurt them as manager in '04 I don't see much of an improvement in Guillen. Also the '03 Sox excaped the injury bug last season.

Bob